Who speaks for Scotland?

Edward McLaughlin

"...how can I maximise this moment of drama?"

Salmond is not in the Premier League. That other copiously eyebrowed obnox, Chris de Burgh and Sarah Ferguson's instant thought on hearing of the death of Diana. "Ya, we've got to put a song out there"

(BTW surely it's 'a talk with [an] SNP figure'?)

Sir Graphus

You mean disasters like a Scottish bank going bust.

So a Scottish minister appears on TV to say that the Scottish taxpayers will bail out the Scottish bank etc etc

No, not a nation yet.

Mark MacGregor

I would be outraged if the First Minister of Scotland remained silent over the death of a Scottish woman at the hands of her kidnappers in Afghanistan. Salmond's words were dignified and gave recognition to Ms Norgrove's aid work. Perhaps you should have dedicated more of your article to Ms Norgrove than an unnecessary attack on the SNP.

Fex Urbis

Just leave Salmond to his arc of prosperity...

TomTom

Scotland joined The Union in 1707 because of the Darien Scheme Disaster......it will stay sucking on England's teat because of the RBS and HBOS Disaster

Jim Mack

What a nasty, spiteful, small-minded and totally unnecessary posting.

A family is grieving Mr Nelson.

If you had any modicum of decency and thought for those who have lost someone you would delete this post.

But I doubt you will as I suspect your own self important ego cannot allow such a retreat. Cannot admit to an error of judgement.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

In2minds

Alex Salmond - I find this man as awful as Gordon Brown. Not so long ago one of his favourite soundbites in that screeching voice of his was "an arc of prosperity". In Salmond's mind this fortuitous curve stretched down from Iceland bounced off the Celtic tiger and so blessed Scotland. Following the problems in Ireland and Iceland as well as the loss of reputation of any bank linked to Scotland this idea is heard no more. But then Salmond is not as noisy as he was, clouds and silver linings etc. And they do say he was once an economist at RBS!

strapworld

This is quite stupid.

I applaud Alex Salmond who has every right to express his disgust at the barbarous slaughter of a defenceless young woman trying to do some good in that god forsaken country.

Does your objection include the many television/ radio or newspaper editors/correspondents etc who, I am sure will fill their papers with their views?

You appear to forget that there are still many scottish soldiers serving there at the moment.

Scotland has given many lives to this Afghanistan war what a pity that two politicians named Blair and Brown are not!

But on the matter of devolvement:- Just remember that the First Minister of Wales, whose name escapes me, presented the Ryder Cup to the winning European Team held at the Celtic Manor Golf Course in Wales. Telling the World that Wales brought the Ryder Cup back to Europe (without the assistance of any Welsh golfers!).

It is a great pity that this coalition does not have any intention of holding a referendum, involving all countries within the United Kingdom, suggesting that the devolved parliaments/assemblies etc be disbanded and brought back under the balliwick of Westminster.

Now that would save so much money!

JohnBUK

Sir Graphus - "Scottish taxpayers"?

Bloody Bill Brock

I strongly object to any criticism whatever of Alex Salmond. His plan to seperate England (my beloved country)from Scotland has huge appeal and my full backing. If any Scots are now in shock that an Englishman loves England as much as they claim to love Scotland, tough.

LC

I echo Jim Mack's comments.

Also -
"I wondered at the time how you would train yourself to see political opportunity in times of crisis."

Probably the same way you have trained yourself to see journalistic opportunity in time of someone else's tragedy.

Bob

No Scots will be shocked Bloody Bill Brock. Only the British.

Phil

Mr Nelson, I understand that people tend to respond to you as well they might to Marmite, but Jim Mack's comment sums up very well how ill judged your piece is. Ironically you have opportunistically chosen to make a point you could have done without this particularly tragic, personal context.

Chris

Donald Dewar humble? ROTFLOL.

Salmondnet

You have to hand it to the SNP. Under the unerring tactical leadership of the Great Pudding of the Chieftain Race they have placed a large wedge in the crack in the Union caused by devolution and know that all they have to do now is keep gently hammering until it eventually breaks. Ironic really, that two allegedly unionist parties worked hard together to give them this opportunity.

Never mind. There is always a silver lining. One result will be an independent England.

Verityred

I'd forgotten how thin skinned the SNP cyber folk are.

Their bleating is up there with Labours.

Chris MacLeod

Shame on you, Fraser Nelson.
And shame on all of you who have descended into political point-scoring in this comments section. Whatever happened to humanity and compassion for a murder victim?

Robert Taggart

Whoever speaks for Scotland few of us south of the border will ever understand them !
re: Chris, may one roll with you ? !

bmc

You mean Scottish Banks like Northern Rock, H(alifax)BOS.

Please, if you think we are not really up to being part of your Union - just say so and we are off!

CWH

Mr Nelson,
You wrote:"...But I cannot see why Salmond needs to release a statement about a woman who has not really lived in Scotland since she left Aberdeen University."

What a meanspirited, and wholly inapropriate comment.

The young lady's parents and the rest of her family DO live in Scotland and will take comfort from the words.

Sometimes you go to a funeral not because you knew the person who died but because you know those who are left behind and wish to support them at such a time. So with Mr Salmond's comments. It is totally immaterial that she has not lived in Scotland for some time. Her live did Scotland credit and that should be acknowledged.

tony

I am amazed that this poison pen letter to Scots in general was penned by a Scot..........even if he does try to ape his betters with his garbled Anglo tones.

In the first paragraph it is alleged that a Libyan murderer wanted to be released and hey presto that happened. Leaving aside the reality that he was undoubtedly innocent (of that crime at least) I'm sure the author understands that it was the great institution of Scots law that allowed the release of Meghrahi. Thus far all we have had are right wing loons from Labour and Tories greetin about how they don't like the decision but as yet no-one has been able to argue against it's lawfullness. The whole point in the debate past seems to have missed that there was a miscarriage of justice at the original trial.

I was totally shocked that the Unionist author actually believes that Scots should know their place and only speak on topics that those of his ilk would like. That boat has long sailed chara.

If Salmond is not the spokesman for my nation then who is? Cameron of "Bring it on!" fame, hilarious! Surely not someone like the author who seemingly rails that there are so many of us who refuse to bend the knee to those he would imply are betters. I could quote James Connelly but what would be the point.

fifer

Mr Nelson

This is so far below your normal standard that one can only conclude that either

a) you're on holiday and a particularly dim work experience student is covering for you, or

b) you were so impressed by intellectual gravitas of the EDL demo this week that you've signed up

Alex Salmond is the First Minister of Scotland. A Scot has been tragically killed whilst trying to help others in a war zone. On what possible basis should he not comment on this?

Bill Duff

What a mean spirited man you are Mr Nelson.

Noa Zrk

Jim Mack @6:15pm

"What a nasty, spiteful, small-minded and totally unnecessary posting.
A family is grieving Mr Nelson...2

That is the point of Fraser Nelson's posting; that it is unseemly for Alex Salmond, the current Bennett Formula chief benefits distributor, to be leaping for self recognition in such tragic circumstances.

Kennybhoy

strapworld.

Respect.

Kennybhoy

Congratulations Maister Nelson.

You have achieved the very difficult task of making Alex Salmond look dignified. If only by comparison with yourself.

Do us all a favour and stick to the "News of the Screws".

Kennybhoy

"That is the point of Fraser Nelson's posting; that it is unseemly for Alex Salmond, the current Bennett Formula chief benefits distributor, to be leaping for self recognition in such tragic circumstances."

As unseemly as the author of the comment quoted immediately above using "such tragic circumstances" as in due turn a hook for one of his xenophobic bon mots?

Indy

The reason why politicians release a comment on any matter is because the press ask for one.

Let's imagine what would be the reaction if Alex Salmond had refused to comment on this and had said "David Cameron has responsibility for commenting on Scotswomen who have been murdered in Afghanustan, not me."

Noa

"As unseemly as the author of the comment quoted immediately above using "such tragic circumstances" as in due turn a hook for one of his xenophobic bon mots?"

If so, then no less than the poster himself, in acknowledging the justice of the comment.

Unsurprisingly, given a nom de plume itself epitomising nationalist and sectarian divisions, he choses to mistake distaste for unseemly and presumptious behaviour with a non existant fear of strangers.

Verity

What a mean spirited and spiteful little article from self loathing Scot, Frazer.

What a nasty, unpleasant man you are, Mr Nelson.

Kennybhoy

Verity...?

Is that you?

If it is then...respect.

Kennybhoy

“If so, then no less than the poster himself, in acknowledging the justice of the comment.”

Forgive my slowness on the uptake, but who is the poster to whom you refer here? Myself or Fraser Nelson? And the justice of which particular comment is,allegedly, acknowledged?

“Unsurprisingly, given a nom de plume itself epitomising nationalist and sectarian divisions..”

Bhoy in this context signifies nothing more than that I am a supporter of a particular football club. If you think that, unlike yourself, I am any sort of nationalist then you really have not been paying attention over the past couple of years.

“...to mistake distaste for unseemly and presumptious behaviour with a non existant fear of strangers.”

Any genuine expression of distaste for such behaviour, real or imagined, would have found it unnecessary to include the following

“..the current Bennett Formula chief benefits distributor..”

The aside was uncalled for. A prime example of precisely the sort of distasteful behaviour which your post purports to condemn. I suspect that the rest of your comment was merely the bait to conceal this hook.

Oh and the definition of xenophobia extends further than mere fear of the other.

Kennybhoy

Oh and it is Barnett formula, not Bennett formula.

Gordon Bennett!

tommyt

Fraser

Whilst disagreeing with most of your stuff I do think it is mostly cogent, farily well argued and not all deranged. Have a read at what teh Scottish Government and the family's local MP have had to say. Compare and contrast with statements given recently by those who authorised the attack. This is a sorry state of affairs, those politicians North of the border have conducted themselves immaculately. Someone or some people elsewhere, very probably for understandable reasons, have made a huge error. May your god rest your soul Ms. Norgrove.

PS Fraser I dont consider a Nairn boy taught in Glasgow to be non-Scottish no matter where they ply their trade.

Noa

"The aside was uncalled for"

It was the point, something the writer has an unerring ability to miss.

If Mr Salmond is at liberty to express condolences as the leader of the Cottish Parliament I am equally so to query why I am funding this duplication.

If this tragedy had occured to a Lancastrian I would not expect the Leader of Lancashire County Council to assume to himself the role of the Prime Minister.

And if he wishes to chide others for using bon mots he should refrain from referring to hooks; proof reading with greater diligence..

Indy

Some of these comments are downright stupid. Let's look at what Alex Salmond said:

"This is extremely sad and upsetting, and I extend my deepest condolences to Linda Norgrove’s family and friends at this heartbreaking time.

“Ms Norgrove was a dedicated aid worker who was doing everything she could to help people in Afghanistan. Hopefully, that legacy of service in a humanitarian cause can be of some comfort to her loved ones in their time of grief.”

That is an entirely appropriate comment to make. Had the Parliament been sitting I am sure that Alex would have made a similar remark in the chamber and would have been speaking on behalf of all MSPs.

She was a Scot, her family are Scottish and live here in Scotland, you would have to be really bitter and twisted to try and make something political out of Scotland's First Minister expressing his condolences.

Kennybhoy

Indy wrote.

"..you would have to be really bitter and twisted to try and make something political out of Scotland's First Minister expressing his condolences."

Amen.

Kennybhoy

"It was the point, something the writer has an unerring ability to miss."

You do realize that you have here granted my whole proposition? You are now openly admitting that the point of your entire comment was to make a mean spirited and spiteful wee comment about Alec Salmond and by extension Scotland and the Scots rather than to condemn any non-existent "unseemly and presumptious behaviour" on Alec Salmond's part.

"If Mr Salmond is at liberty to express condolences as the leader of the Cottish Parliament I am equally so to query why I am funding this duplication."

Och it is "Mr Salmond" and "leader of the Cottish Parliament" now rather than "Bennett Formula chief benefits distributor"? How much do you think that an expression of condolence cost in pounds, shillings and pence? Is this really how your mind works..?

"If this tragedy had occured to a Lancastrian I would not expect the Leader of Lancashire County Council to assume to himself the role of the Prime Minister."

You just cannot help yourself can you? The notion that ANY one of the constituent countries of the United Kingdom is in any way comparable to a County Council is a proposition too ridiculous even for the likes of you. Once again you revert to your mean spirited and spiteful default mode.

“And if he wishes to chide others for using bon mots he should refrain from referring to hooks..”

Do you really not know the difference between a bon mot and a metaphor?

“..; proof reading with greater diligence.”

Just the latest to add to the lengthening list of such.

Noa

"You just cannot help yourself can you?"

No, most regrettably for a self-satisfied and self appointed moral arbiter, you can't.

Your increasingly pedantic and splenetic posts give me concern for your health and so I will not enter into any further pointless correspondence with you on this matter.

Kennybhoy

"Your increasingly pedantic and splenetic posts give me concern for your health.."

And your consistently bigoted and hate filled posts, displaying at their worst the moral and psychological atmosphere of a Nazi give me grave concern for your soul sir. I continue to remember you in my prayers.

Noa

I had intended to treat this ridicious exchange as closed but I consider it necessary to publiclly reject your contemptible and untrue accusation.

Even within your pedantic, self-righteous and demented lexicon, I find it incredible that being a Nazi can inferred from a criticism of the leader of the Scottish Parliament and by extension its role, in a time of personal tragedy.

As to '"I continue to remember you in my prayers".

Kindly direct your prayers to your own salvation without presuming to intervene for mine, as I have always considered such repeated public declarations of piety, are more often than not, the final refuge of the sanctimonious hypocrite.

Kennybhoy

We can continue this here or on The Wall. Your choice.

Noa Zrk

Or behind the bikeshed..?

Grow up!

The only basis for future discussion on this or any other matter is your withdrawal of your unpardonable accusation that I am a nazi,followed by your unconditional apology.

Adolf

Kenny invokes Godwins Law.

This thread is now closed.

Noa

Godwin's Law, Adolf?

But that is always trumped by Mornington Crescent.

Thucydides

Kenny and Noa Brk,

Please don't call a halt, now it's just getting interesting!

(View from the touchline: Kenny was wiping the floor with Noa, but erred big time with the Nazi reference, which just might have given the desperately-flapping Noa a lifeline - an irrelevant hook to grab onto.)

Kennybhoy

Here it is then.

I have done absolutely nothing to apologize for.

You wrote.

"I find it incredible that being a Nazi can inferred from a criticism of the leader of the Scottish Parliament and by extension its role, in a time of personal tragedy.."

But the state of my mental health ,or anyone else's for that matter, can be discerned by taking and robustly defending a position in opposition to one of yours?

The specific inference was not drawn exclusively from the post above but mainly from your posts of October 3rd, 2010 culminating in that of October 3rd, 2010 7:38pm. You remember? The one that was removed from The Wall? The one wherein in language redolent of Der Sturmer and imagery redolent of the "Final Solution" you characterized another human being as less than human and worthy only of being poisoned or shot at your discretion? Just as, by way of comparison, the moral and psychological atmosphere of the AGW fanatics may be discerned from 10.10's "humourous" "No Pressure" advert, so too sir may yours be discerned from this deleted post. Both atmospheres are, to say the least, very ugly.

Kennybhoy

Thucydides.

Watch this space.

In respect of the internet meme known as "Godwin's Law". Said meme is just that, a meme. It does not describe a genuine intellectual fallacy. It is most often used these days, mainly but by no means exclusively by the liberal-left, to censor and ridicule legitimate comparison. It is very often used as a means to politically correct end. It violates the genuinely axiomatic "abusus non tollit usum" principle.

JohnMcDonald

When British nationalists, like Mr Nelson, are reduced to this level of derogatory, barrel-scraping comment you know that they have lost the intellectual argument.