Cameron’s morals

Rhoda Klapp

"It is ‘right’ that everyone contributes, ‘right’ that the affluent forgo some state-awarded privileges, ‘right’ that those who have scrounged are made to toil,......"

Those repeated assertions of 'it is irght' without much argument in support give Rhoda a distinct feeling of deja vu. Tractor stats next?

BigAl

I am getting tired of hearing about 'fairness'. It is almost meaningless apart from the narrow political capital the Socialistas (ie the Official Opposition BBC) are making.

The IFS use benefits and taxation changes to define 'fairness'. The poorest people who are the most affected pay little or nothing for healthcare, education, transport and defence but reap the benefits of the fact that other people pay for them. Why don't the IFS include these important services in their measure? If they did then the true 'fairness' would be apparent to all and those who pay would see they are being shafted.

AuldCurmudgeon

"I had to eat those words. But is it right to go on asking people on £15,000 £20,000 or £25,000 a year to keep paying so that Nick and me and Ed Miliband can go on getting child benefit?"

But is it right for a familly on £50,000 a year to give up child benefit so a familly on £80,000 a year can keep on claiming it?

libertarian

"STATE AWARDED PRIVILEGES" sorry for shouting.

What planet are these morons on? I worked really really really hard, employing many 100's of people and then YOU came and took a large chunk of those earnings away without giving me ANY services in return .

If you want to rein in the deficit tell the EU and DFID to do one.

In2minds

@Rhoda - Heir to Brown, now that's a thought!

davidk

Oh please, he's a Carlton TV PR man. Let's not try and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear by proclaiming Cameron as a conviction politician.

startledcod

It is also 'right' that when we are trimming other budgets we should reduce or at least not increase our contribution to the EU.

I am a Cameron supporter but this is not good enough. It is not right because he say it is so, it is right if he makes and wins the argument.

The top 10% of tax payers pay 53.3% of the income tax total (the top 1% - 24.1%), is that right or should they be paying more (or less)? What is right?

Olaf Rye

If only he were 'Right' in the sense of being on a certain side of the political spectrum ! Although I am keen on seeing government spending reduced, I am not impressed by the small steps that have been taken, nor by the continued existence of so many civil servants and so much regulation. Until the cuts are more severe, until the bureaucrats are unemployed and the state palpably withdrawn from our lives to the point where it only administers some aspects of life such as defence, I am afraid that I shall regard Cameron as yet another state apologist and social engineer with contempt for the public and the individual's capacity to achieve anything.

Don

But is it right for a familly on £50,000 a year to give up child benefit so a familly on £80,000 a year can keep on claiming it?

I really struggle to see what your problem is. The couple on 80,000 per year are both working. They both have work related expenses. They have child care to fund. They pay more tax. They are both out WORKING not at home. They made their bed, they are lying in it, in the same way as the single worker family.

lescam

".....‘it is right’ that Britain honour its pledge to increase international aid"

I'd call it stupid, idiotic, bloody barmy, myself. For Cameron's own glorification ("see how honourable I am, still giving handouts to Africa et al") the country is to be more or less bankrupted. Money shovelled out (up 37%) for the ADWSF (African Dictators' Wives Shopping Fund) that could have gone to help the poorer people in Britain, and all for the sake of Cameron's so-called honour.

I've got smoke coming out of my ears, just reading about what David "sod the Brits, just pour money into Africa" Cameron thinks is "right". Very glad I didn't vote for him, and will never vote Tory again until the happy day when he and his Eton cronies are ousted.

Verity

I get the sense from the posters above that Cameron strikes us all in the same way: a drawing room left winger. Like the Mitfords. Like the old movie star Kathering Hepburn, from a very rich family. Bertrand Russell. Absolutely no connection with 99.999% of our fellow citizens. But knows what's best.

If Shameron wants to be perceived as confrontational and standing up for the little man - although he's not absolutely certain that he's ever met one - dump the illegal (in Britain) monstrous construct that is the EU. It's illegal for anyone to have signed our country away, so there would be no long, tangled fight to get it back. In fact, no fight at all. We just go. Diplomats, hundreds of them, withdrawn overnight. Offices closed and locked. Fleets of diplomatic cars shipped back to Britain.

The posters above have a remarkable cohesiveness of opinion. EU - out. Keep our money.

And Shameron's a cheap little pr practitioner. I had thought that the creepy Tony Blair was the absolute nadir of British politicians, then along comes one that's even creepier.

Magnolia

Is it right to throw away traditional family life and Harrier jump jet pilots to give more money to the EU and to make sure that benefit claimants can get as much money as the average worker before tax? Are they Conservative policies?

Don

I've got smoke coming out of my ears, just reading about what David "sod the Brits, just pour money into Africa" Cameron thinks is "right". Very glad I didn't vote for him, and will never vote Tory again until the happy day when he and his Eton cronies are ousted.

Like you ever voted Tory. You have blinkered, little Englander, foam flecked UKIPPER written all over you.

Verity

Lescam hits the nail on the head with a nice dull, heavy clunking sound! Cameron is playing his God-given noblesse oblige role with the money of people who get up at 3 a.m. to go and stack supermarket shelves - not exactly a rewarding career, but they're paying their way - and drive buses and tubes, people who stand on their feet all day serving customers in tens of thousands of shops, people who work in dry cleaners' establishments, handing clothes back and forth across the counter, etc etc etc ... so their money can go to Africa - although Lescam, I don't care whether it goes to African dictators' wives and girlfriends or the general population of Africa who should bloody well help themselves, like the rest of the world. They've been passengers for 60 years. If they don't want to overthrow their dictators and get someone civilised in office, that is their bloody choice and not our business.

So, on the richest continent on planet earth - both agriculturally and an abundance of minerals that the rest of the world wants to buy - they're dying of starvation? Whose fault is that? They're dying of easily cured diseases (the cures having been developed in the West). Whose fault is that? I've never seen such passivity in my life and it shouldn't be catered to.

Privileged Bullingdon Boy Cameron should stick to his own crowd. He doesn't understand the rest of us.

libertarian

@Don

Please don't be a moron too. Please explain what a little Englander is. I'm 6' 2" and English so I'm not little. I am English, what should I be? I'm anti European Federal Union, but am a free trade, free movement of people believer.

People that trot out silly meaningless clichés in order to win an argument are beyond bothering with normally.

toni

@Don. If you think lescam has ukip tattood on his forhead, what the hell do you make of Olaf Rye?
;0) ;0)
This place is hilarious at times.

Marcher Baron

Is it "right" that we have to pull in our belts at home while the EU increases its budget (not signed off by the auditors for more than a decade) at a rate above inflation and Cameron just acquiesces?

Frank Sutton

@Don - 3.10pm: Attribution would allow your post at least a chance of making sense

lescam

Verity
October 23rd, 2010 3:18pm

Well said. It's about time Africa took responsibility for its own troubles. It is not Britain's problem and not our duty to give them handouts for ever. Almost the whole continent, with the exception of Botswana and South Africa, is a basket case because of the so-called "leaders" who are in power just long enough to grab all the cash going, then run before they are assassinated. Is this Britain's fault? Why the hell do we have to keep on bailing out these countries? We owe them nothing.

Nicholas

Rather be a Little Englander than a bird-brained, gobby tosser like Don - who can't even make up his own pejoratives but has to open Labour's Big Book of Insults for People Who Dare to Disagree With Us and then repeats them, parrot fashion.

"Squawk! Squawk! Don's a tosser! Don's a tosser!"

Verity

This post is titled, "Cameron's morals". Is that this irony thingy?

Chris lancashire

With all the complaints on this thread seems to me Cameron's got it about right.

Verity

Nicholas, please don't insult parrots. Apparently they understand what they are saying and can respond to their person's response. Maybe a limited vocabulary, but they use their words deliberately.

Individuals like Don and a few others here who squawk repetitive phrases are not up to this standard.

Verity

If the populations of Africa are so supine that they are prepared to let their leaders steal from them, that is their choice and we shouldn't interefere.

Don

libertarian.
Oh dear where to start. You are a little Englander. Not a little Englishman. Do try and read what is written, it make you look less foolish when you make a "witty" response.
If you really struggle to understand what a "little Englander" is, google is your friend. You may find it an education.

As for not responding to cliches, why did you? Is it because you know it to be true and it struck a nerve?

Now don't you have a mass UKIP rally to attend? There must be one being held in a phone booth near you.

LibertarianLou

"I really struggle to see what your problem is. The couple on 80,000 per year are both working. They both have work related expenses. They have child care to fund. They pay more tax. They are both out WORKING not at home. They made their bed, they are lying in it, in the same way as the single worker family."

Sorry but how can you not see the logic - the single parent earning only £44k presumably also has child care costs? As he or she is working all day too. They might not have chosen to be a single parents - their partner might have died for example.

Child benefit is supposed to be a CHILD BENEFIT - means testing should be based on how much money available to be spent on the CHILD there is. It should be calculated on total household income.

Don

Nicholas, thanks for the admission you are a little Englander. It's not really something to be proud of. You probably associate it with patriotism, sadly for you it isn't. It is the hiding place of blinkered bigots. Judging by the rest of your post, it probably best you stay a little Englander, you would only embarrass the country if you where to go overseas.

toni

Nicholas. 'Labour's Big Book of Insults for People Who Dare to Disagree With Us'
You really are beyond parody, and must have been at the back of the queue when the irony genes were being popped in.
This place is in a constant fevered turmoil of moaning, complaining and vindictive verbal assaults against the world and his wife who have the temerity to disagree with you!
Have a word with yourself man, you sound utterly silly.

Don

"..lLou, Sorry but how can you not see the logic - the single parent earning only £44k presumably also has child care costs? As he or she is working all day too. They might not have chosen to be a single parents - their partner might have died for example..?

who mentioned single parents?

Auntie Mame

Don, in my observation, people who feel they have a lofty lesson to teach adult, total strangers are trying to compensate for failure in their own lives. There's a lot of it in these parts.

Tarka the Rotter

OK Dave, if it is 'right' that everybody contributes to get us out of the mess it follows that it is also 'right' to bring to account those politicians who got us here in the first place, and I have to point out after carefully reviewing the level of opposition you and your party offered Blair and Brown, that includes your good self. What's the point in maintaining Westminster Hall unless you have a state trial now and again?

normanc

Politicians never fail to bore me with their vacuity. What I like to do in these situations is play what I call the 'Negative Game'.

How you play it is like this.

If a politician says 'It is right that everyone contributes' you take the opposite of that and see if any politician could possibly say it. In this case could you imagine any politician saying 'It is right that some people get a free ride'.

Of course you can't. No politician would ever say that so the statement is meaningless.

'It is right that we help redundant people back into work' vs 'It is right that we ignore people who are made redundant'.

Doing this with every statement you can see just how vacuous the statements made by politicians are, 99% of the stuff they spout is completely meaningless.

LibertarianLou

Well that's the point, isn't it - a single income family with £44k to spend on the child will be hit pretty hard by this cut whereas a two-income family with a household total of £80k to spend on the child will not be touched. So the comments about the two parents having to pay childcare etc also applies to a single parent on a low income. It should be, therefore, calculated based on total household income, or rather the amount of money per child - it is, after all, supposed to be a child benefit. Why should a child get more money for having two parents? It doesn't add up.

wonderfulforhisage

On the basis that benefits encourage behaviour, I'd like to suggest that we encourage families with two working parents on £40k. Seems to me that they are the most likely type of parents to bring up children in their own hard working tax paying image who will carry on supporting me further into my dotage.

God forbid that my even older age will be provided by the efforts of the offspring of a ten children household, subsisting on handouts,

By the way, hasn't the Rooney boy done good. It's interesting to me to ponder the ultimate source of his future fortunes.

wonderfulforhisage

This Africa business is fascinating to me - mind you I've had just the one.

It would seem that there are three forces operating in the oversees aid business - capital, revenue and corruption. If corruption is playing any significant role, then it's not worth considering capital or revenue. By capital I mean contribution to infrastructure and by revenue I mean the alleviation of present day poverty. Since corruption plays such a very significant role in Africa then contributing to either capital or revenue is pointless.

A Martian might advise a fourth way, colonialism - dread word, but what would he know about anything?

Verity

Wonderful for His Age - Don't worry about Africa. China is already colonising them on the quiet, and the Chinese are demanding masters.

Olaf Rye

Good point, Toni ! I did indeed vote UKIP in the last election because of my deep concern about the anti-democratic and anti-liberal tendencies of the EU. Much of the insane regulation and limitation of our freedoms stems from EU directives, but particularly the interpretation of these by the more totalitarian disposed types in our government and judiciary.

I am Danish by origin and am a firm believer in the free movement of capital and people. The EU does not make trade possible--people and business makes trade possible, so long as the governments do not impose restrictions. Until the Tories, Labour and the LibDems seriously address the matter of how the EU has curtailed our liberties, I am afraid that as a matter of conscience that I am compelled to vote UKIP. In Denmark, I similarly voted for anti-EU parties, so it is perhaps worthwhile to recall that there is plenty of anti-EU sentiment throughout Europe and we are not an isolated example in the British Isles. This, too, is one of those attempts to misrepresent the opposition to the EU programme as something peculiar to the British.