A snapshot of Sderot

Philip Martin

I really hope you're taking these notes for a much longer article. They are very, very interesting. More needs to be known about Sderot. The picture of the used rockets is particularly compelling. Good work!

David

"Since the beginning of 2008, over 1,600 rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israel"

And yet no reports on the BBC, ITV or Channel 4 news, nothing in the papers.

Israel sends one missile, it's a front page story.

adrian drummond

Hamas won the election.

Isreal has treated the Palestinians appallingly.

Compared with what Isreal has fired into Gaza (not to mention the countless incursions and atrocious treatment of civilians), 1600 rockets in retaliation seems a limited response.

TGF UKIP

Great stuff Pete and in some small way it redresses the tons of bleeding heart stuff pumped out from Gaza virtually every week on the BBC and especially on Saturdays "From Our Own Correspondent." More like the Hamas correspondent. David is dead right. It's high time the Speccie had as its lead article "Where is the Balen Report."

Stephen Rothbart

So Hamas won an election. So did Hitler. With just about the same amount of intimidation. Did that mean the Allies had to accept what Hitler stood for and the foolish people who voted for him were blameless for the consequences?

I am sick and tired of that thought process being trotted out by brain dead people that hold to the idea that since the people of Gaza voted for Hamas we have to respect that decision and thus negotiate with them.

Some people are beyond the pale as far as realistic negotiations go.

Why would Israel talk to a government whose main mandate is to promote her destruction?

I am sure if the BNP won control of the UK and started a racist attacks on any citizens that disagreed with its obnoxious policies, the Adrian Drummonds of this world would be up in arms protesting.

Tanuki

I have an acquaintance who lives within firing range of hamas's Kassam missiles.
He doesn't have *any* sympathy or fellowfeel at all for the arab terrorists who fly the 'palestinian' flag - indeed he's proud to work for Israel's largest military electronics company.
We should not give journalistic succour to hamas or any other islamic-terror organisation.

Max Kaye

TGF UKIP, I second your call for the Balen Report to be published (after all, we funded it).

Cannot someone with BBC connections find a copy. I'm not asking anyone to steal anything: just borrow a copy for an hour or two, make a copy and....

Ann

"Isreal has treated the Palestinians appallingly" - the misspelling is revealing. It is always the members of one particular group who misspell it that way.
You know, visiting neo-Nazi websites really is bad for the brain.

adrian dummond

My opinion is based simply on my experience of working in the Middle East (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Dubai and Israel) and Washington DC (listening to lectures by Yitzhak Rabin). For those of you who derive most of your opinions via the newspapers and the BBC, I suggest who haul your asses out to the region (not just Sderot) and take a look for yourself.

For the Stephen Rothbarts of this world it may be an eye opener - should he have the balls to go.

PS. Spelling error = visiting neo-Nazi websites? Interesting extrapolation but incorrect in this case.

Ted Tedford

Peter: Great post.

TGF, Max: Thirded for the Balen Report.

Stephen Rothbart

Well I have been to Israel, and have seen the size of the country, which is 8 miles wide at the pre-1967 border, and I have seeen the bunkers in the roads where cars had to go if the Jordanians started shelling the farms. Which they used to do quite often until they decided peace with Israel was a better solution.

I have seen the water resevoirs that the Israelis have to guard because their Palestinian neighbors try to poison the water.

I also don't need the balls to go to the places Mr. Dummond suggests, I have had many Arab friends from these places who think the Palestinians are crazy and dangerous and really truly do not want them in their country. Remember how Arafat tried to take over Lebanon when the Israelis kicked him out in the 1980's Mr. Dummond?

The main reason for my reluctance to go to Saudia Arabia and Iraq, Jordan and Dubai is another story(one I have been to, and the other I would love to visit),is that these people hold a rather hostile view of people with Israeli stamps in their passport.

Why would I want to go to racist societies where even the Adrian Dummonds of this world are looked down on as second class people and his wife as not even that?

Robert G

I usually consider who's got the most and the biggest bombs; who's stolen land and property; who has obliterated the most towns and buildings; who engages in state approved torture; who has killed most civilians; who has corrupt judges and legal system that sanctions all of the above. I find the answer is usually Israel.

Ian C

The really newsworthy piece is your point 11). That takes some doing and is a great sign. Legitimacy of electing an organisation committed to the destruction of its neigbour? There can be none at all. The problem is the difference between the evry day plight of people (of both sides) and the strategic battle that cannot be lost to terror, and especially not tp Islamo-fascist terror.

adrian drummond

To Stephen Rothbart

Extraordinary comments. Although sad, I think they rather prove my point.

Dirk Blade

Robert G: Could it be that you are considering the wrong criteria? And, when considering your highly selective list, you might start analyzing the items a bit more.

e.g. "Who has the most and biggest bombs?" You might ask "And what is the targeting policy? Do they deliberately target non-combatants?" ('Civilian', as I have posted elsewhere, is a loaded term easily abused by the Palestinian leadership and its supporters to justify murdering Israeli non-combatants.)

Asking "Who has the corrupt ...legal system?" is also a bit of a give-away: at least Israel *has* a transparent legal system, and one under which Palestinians and other Arabs have rights not accorded to Jews in most Islamic countries.

As for "Who has stolen land?", trying asking "Which country has been repeatedly invaded, however incompetently, by its neighbours?" Or "Which country allows the greatest human rights to its citizens, regardless of religion?" Or "Which country in the Middle East has a functioning democratic tradition, allows a free vote and is truly accountable to its electorate?" Or "Which country is held to standards of conduct not expected of any other country by the UN and the international media and routinely condemned by despotical regimes that have no standards of accountability to their citizens?" Or... But you get the idea.

I find, like you, that the answer is usually Israel.

Jonathan Chappell

Robert G. By the time I got to the part where you make the allegation about the "corrupt judges and legal system" I had already taken you for an ignoramus but that comment proved it. Most people - even the loonies on the far left - would agree that the Israeli Supreme Court uphold the highest standards of fairness and legal excellence. But you wouldn't know, would you?

Dan T

To Robert G and the other biased apologists for Hamas:

Israel completely evacuated Gaza. No settlers, no soldiers. Immediately upon the withdrawal, Palestinian terrorists (under the watchful eye of Fatah which ran the territory), began firing rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns, with the intent to terrorize, murder and maim civilians. Israel would have been absolutely delighted had the Palestinians taken their newly returned territory and used that freedom to build the foundations for an independent state. Instead, the Palestinians themselves demonstrated 1) their incompetence in running their own affairs; 2) their real intent, which is not to get back the "occupied territories," (i.e Gaza and West Bank), but instead to get back pre UN Partition "Mandatory Palestine."
Now why oh why would the Israelis feel the need to seal the borders with Gaza? Perhaps its because the Hamas run government dispatches its terror squads almost weekly in attempts to infiltrate Israel, kidnap its citizens and murder civilians. Lastly, to those who dishonestly claim that Israel controls the borders w Gaza, in point of fact EGYPT controls the southern most border and has imposed drachonian closures worse than Israel for the same reasons Israel has: Hamas sponsored terror.

So Robert G, please take your completely nonsensical hyperbole and stuff it.

Dan T

An alternative line of reasoning to explain the motives behind what Israel has been doing in Gaza (and would no doubt resonate w Robert G and Adrian and their ilk, is that Israel, its political leadership, military leadership and society in general are in fact a death cult, which glorifies death above life, indoctrinates its children to hate its neighbors, rejects territorial compromise for peace, controls its media to brainwash its people, and is a sadistic, homicidal, hateful culture that is preying on its opponents because in point of fact it enjoys to see their suffering.

Oh wait a second. I apologize. Just realized I described Hamas and the Palestinians. Oops!:)

phil

For the likes of mr Drummond unfortunately it is necessary to repeat that Israel does not target women and children ,only militants, and because they hide amongst them they sometimes are collateral damage (very very sadly)-maybe he can tell his friends amongst all the countries that he has visited to advise the hamas to fight like men if they indeed have to fight at all ,and perhaps they may be advised also that peace is far better for their women and children .
For what hamas is doing to Sderots children they are getting off very lightly-does he know of any other country who would continue to supply food electricity etc etc ,medically treat its enemies and not try to obliterate those people who continue to target innocents?-he may also tell me how Jewish people can visit Arab states other than Egypt and Jordan -I note he managed to get into Israel (how ironic)-
He may also give a thought to the great Arab statesmen king Hussein and President Sadat rather than to his idiotic friends who value death higher than life -mr Drummond you sit sipping your beer in a safe environment criticising those that are trying to live in peace and have been attacked incessantly for the last 60 years -Perhaps you have pragmatic and constructive suggestions to a state who has a responsibility to protect its citizens-but before you answer yourself if not me , remember Israel never attacked anyone until it was forced to in 1967 nor did it continue to occupy its defensive positions after peace was made -it also left Gaza too and see what good came from that -you have started something with your remarks hopefully you will not run from the answers,and please no nonsense,just truth and pragmatism
thank you Pete for an excellent expose of life as it is

phil

well mr drummond a day has passed and I know you will have looked -we all do -but sadly you have not found it possible to answer have you ?pretty typical!

jillsy

Well, robert G, i find that the most useful question to ask is:"Who has the most hatred?"
You'll find that the answer is - the Arabs.
And they're funded by the Saudis, by the West (yes, by Europe, USA and even israel).
they have expended themaselves not on building better lives for themselves and their people, but on getting rid of jews, before the State of modern israel and fetr its establishmnet.

Hizbollah used cluster bombs, kidnapping and murder,Iranian missiles; the PLO used murder, murder, bombing, murder, hijacking, murder, theft, murder, Hamas uses murder, rockets, thefy from their own people, their own people's infrastructure to commit murder.

adrian drummond

Phil, I've been caught up in the London elections. Anyway...

Sipping beer in a safe environment? I'm afraid not; I've been at the sharp end in the region and it was not pleasant experience (but that's a separate matter of no direct consequence). In terms of Israel not attacking anyone prior to 1967, I think I'm correct in saying they (Irgun)were the first terrorists in the region. They blew up the King David Hotel in 1946 and killing 91 people - 28 of whom were British - in the process. I draw little distinction between them and Hamas. Unless you and others are more objective in your outlook this sorry saga will continue.

Kind regards etc... Adrian

Grant

Adrian, you have crossed over from silliness into deliberate deception. First, you trudge up something from 1946. Second, you ignore that Irgun WARNED the King David Hotel, which was a base of the British Military (a legitimate target of war). In short, there is nothing comparable from that attack to, say, the Pizza Parlor or Bus bombings that Hamas does. The fact that you don't distinguish between the two makes your anti-Jewish bias quite obvious.

Wise Man

drummox:

"I think I'm correct in saying they (Irgun)were the first terrorists in the region"

False. Arab terrorist campaigned were conducted against Palestinian Jews 1926-29 and 1936-39.

phil

Mr Drummond, I see you don't wish to address my points and I do understand why -it is too difficult -just as a matter of interest for you the King David hotel killings were an accident as the warning went wrong ,a fact that any student of history would be well aware of ,and not that any Jewish person would endorse ,it was a crime and was dealt with accordingly -how sad that you choose to base your case on one isolated (though terrible)incident.viz: the explosion caused the collapse of the south-western corner of the southern wing of the hotel. 91 people were killed, most of them staff of the secretariat and the hotel: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 others. Around 45 people were injured. Some of the deaths and injuries occurred in the road outside the hotel and in adjacent buildings---does your logic tell you that the Irgun would wish to kill the Jewish people in the hotel too-I think not .It was an obvious incompetent act and very sad for all involved including the perpetrators who not only killed innocents but harmed the Israeli cause -You do not need to remind me of the appalling act at Deir Yassin another crime committed against everything that Israel stands for -you will of course be aware the perpetrators were hunted down as criminals by the Jews .

I NEVER SEE THE PALESTINIANS ET AL ADMITTING THEIR NUMEROUS ATROCITIES ,DO YOU? Nor punishing them

I have no doubt this "sorry saga "will continue because of the shallow knowledge of so many of you who insist on sharing it with others and thereby supporting the unsupportable -why not try to encourage both parties to find a path to peace rather than fuelling the fires ?You could of course attempt to address the points I raised earlier too.

I don't suppose you were helping Boris were you ?Ah well a silly question no doubt but from now on the London Mayor will not be inviting terrorists to lecture in his great city,nor insult reporters

adrian drummond

"the King David hotel killings were an accident as the warning went wrong". Very sad. You seem to condone terrorism. With or without a warning it is still unforgiveable. I've actually had to fight terrorism and I'm not going to engage in a discourse with someone that cheery picks what is and what is not acceptable.

phil

MR DRUMMOND--- Now I note you are unable to read .or perhaps would rather not -IT WAS PRETTY OBVIOUS TO ALL BUT A FOOL THAT I DID NOT CONDONE TERRORISM -you still have not answered the questions (understandable) .but you have been exposed ,and that will do for me .its just a pity that I have to waste my time doing it

adrian drummond

BTW Grant...

At least you imply that Irgun carried out a 'terrorist' attack although justify it on the grounds that it was 'a legitimate target of war'. Sounds to me like IRA speak.
Phil, on the other hand, rather subtly uses terminology such as, 'a criminal act', 'a incompetent act', 'criminals', 'perpetrators', 'accident' and 'incident' rather than actually use the words 'terrorists' and 'terrorist act'. He should acknowledge that Irgun were as much a terrorist organisation as any other without trying to apply his own terms of reference as to what constitutes terrorism. He may not condone 'criminal acts' but that attack on the King David hotel was not a criminal act. It was a terrorist act by a terrorist organisation. Far from harming 'the Israeli cause' it accelerated Britain relinquishing its Mandate.
Phil also legitimises Israel attacking militants who hide amongst women and children who may become, as he rather tactfully puts it, 'collateral damage'. Imagine Britain having the same policy in Belfast during the 70's and 80's. Unthinkable. Although Phil finds this policy of State terrorism acceptable, he does, of course, find it 'very, very sad'. Well, that's ok then.

phil

Adrian D if you go any further you are in danger of disappearing up your own back passage -your quotes are of course all out of context and I DON'T THINK YOU WILL GET ANY FURTHER WITH MR GRANT .,he is less likely to be as polite as me -you never answer the questions posed to you .why don't you try ?
I,m sure it is pretty obvious to all who are left reading this boring stuff that you have no idea what you are talking about ,but someone has to deny you free reign to write this nonsense about us .You are desperately scrambling around 60 years ago to argue who was and who was not a terrorist -do you not have anything a bit more modern? you might also tell us which of your candidates were not elected ,that might throw a little more light on where you are coming from -capish?

adrian drummond

Phil, first I note that you still rather cleverly do not acknowledge Israeli terrorism. However, for the sake of your blood pressure and having a brief moment to kill...let me try and answer the questions that you conjured up and are so desperate to have answered. No doubt you will not be satisfied and will retort with your usual insulting language. However...

1) I believe I've already answered this question in a previous post. Further evidence is a quote from a Guardian report June 2006:-

QUOTE: A barrage of Israeli artillery shells rained down on a busy Gaza beach yesterday, killing seven Palestinians, three of them children.

2) I believe the strategy of winning a hearts and minds campaign is critical for a counter-terrorist strategy. I also believe that Britain has successfully used this policy effectively in the past. However, I do not believe Israel does enough in this respect.

3) Passports? Some people are allowed more than one passport depending on their occupation. I further understand that if one politely asks the Israeli passport control NOT to stamp your passport they won't. This policy may have changed in recent years.

4) Constructive suggestions. Israel should follow the Powell doctrine and speak to Hamas. They should be more gracious towards some of the Palestinians and not treat them so inhumanely; it's just creating a seed bed for more terrorists.

Further points: A bit more modern? Where does one start? Lebanon 2006. London local Elections? No candidates re London election. Just enjoying tracking the splendid victory of Boris Johnson. Politically I'm Right of centre. No religion. Having seen first hand so much death and destruction in the name of religion, I'm now an atheist.

Kind regards, AD

phil

Adrian thanks for the reply it was like pulling teeth but worthwhile in the end .now at least we can disagree in peace -if you felt insulted that was not my intention-I accept you are right of centre and I am rather more liberal than that but cest la vie

-I believe strongly about Israel ,s wish" to be a light unto nations " and that it has never had a chance to do that as it has been under attack since its very inception-5 Arab armies immediately invaded it and bombed Tel Aviv .I referred earlier to sipping beer ,it is easy for us to tell each other what is right and wrong ,not so easy when your very life depends on your immediate actions -I have family living near to the wall and they tell me it would be untenable without the protection it affords-that family only want peace and justice for both sides and to live next to a viable Palestinian state -they do not hate but those feelings are not reciprocated.

As for terrorism ,I made it clear I disapprove of it from wherever it emanates ,but King David hotel was never meant to bring about loss of life ,nevertheless it did and must be disapproved of ,Deir Yassin was a disgrace and was treated as such by the Jewish authorities -the real point is whether the state meant to do this harm and if so that is terrorism ,the actions of rogue individuals is not state terrorism -there is the real difference with hamas -I would say also that the people involved had just survived the nazi death camps and were under attack again as Jews and being threatened with being thrown back into the sea .their friends were being killed on the road to Jerusalem whilst trying to take supplies to that beleaguered city -it does not make it right but it is more understandable
.
Jewish culture does not veer towards inhumanity which was your accusation-kindness and charity is more in our line so if I have been sharp ,perhaps you will understand why ,and maybe I will have made you a little more aware of what the situation really is -I hope so

adrian drummond

Thank you Phil for a more civil response. I agree in part with what you have written. Best regards to your family in Israel. AD