Why prisoners shouldn't have the vote

Verity

I have loathed John Hirst since I first read his raving postings on Iain Dale's blog. Now you post his photo here, and he looks EXACTLY as he comes across in his unpleasant, self-satisfied manipulative ravings. He killed, with an axe, his elderly landlady as she had borrowed a jar of marmalade off his shelf in the kitchen and replaced it, having forgotten to put the lid back on. And this nasty piece of work has run a campaign for prisoners to be elevated to voter status.

In most American states, he would have been dead by now and not bothering legislators.

BTW, who were the legislators who passed this law/bill whatever? Were they expecting to win the votes of the public?

ollie

The mischevious part of me applauds this guy for ripping the pi** out of Andrew Neill, one of the smuggest journalists ever.

The other part of me says that this piece of human trash should have been hanged.

Simone

I was disgusted before seeing that video, but I'm feeling much worse now.
The government should just say, "NO!"

The woman who attacked her MP with a knife and is now in prison, will be able to vote from her cell. Why should she have this right??

What is wrong with us? Why can't we just ignore stupid rulings like this?

Tim Worstall

The law is the law and yes, even governments have to obey it.

This is the basic deal of the Anglo Saxon or Common Law system.

I'm not in general favour of our man the Jailhouse Lawyer but on this specific issue, well done to him.

Tom Paine was a grotty little shit you know? And Jefferson owned and screwed at least one of his slaves.

Whether prisoners should have the vote or not is one thing: that the law, as currently constituted, says they must, means that if we are to have the rule of law then prisoners must have the vote.

And I will always applaud anyone who manages to keep the government's feet to the fire of the law.

Tom

Ignoring how odious he is for a moment, you do have to say htat he is right in his basic argument. If you sign up to a charter that says that voting is an inalienable right then you can't take it away from someone because they are in prison.

Edward Sutherland

Tim Worstall: What's this got to do with the Common Law of England? This is all to do with a "right" the European Court of Human Rights, based in Strasbourg, not the UK, says this man should have, based on their interpretation of the European Convention of Human Rights. We should withdraw from the Convention and amend our own Human Rights Act to prevent this sort of nonsense.

Andy Leeds

Unfortunately John Hirst was found guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. Why the Crown accepted such a plea one cannot say, so even under the law pre 1965 he would not have been sentenced to death.

As to voter rights for prisoners I believe they should not be allowed to vote. This has been the case since 1870 with the Forfeiture Act which predates the ECHR of 1950. It was in accord with the convention then and is now. I am sure there are plenty of lawyers who can devise a legal way to deny prisoners the vote.

normanc

Prisoners should have the vote. Not because they deserve, but because we do. We have bent over backwards to secure human rights, minority rights, womens rights, in fact any kind of right you can think of and now we have the latest fad that everything has to be fair and progressive. At the same time our Parliament has derogated ultimate authority to decide on these matters to a European Court whose judges may know little of British law.

When these things come back and bite us in the bum we can't complain. We've made this bed of nails for ourselves over the last 50 years, now we have to lie on it.

finchy

My first instinct is no, prisoners should not be allowed to vote. The interviewee in the video is clearly repulsive.

However, unless you believe in punishment for punishment's sake, then prisoners should get the vote.

Will allowing prisoners the vote endanger the public? No

Will it help victims of crime achieve "closure" (aka revenge in plain English)? No

Will it make prisoners more likely to reoffend? No

Does the fact that you lose the vote when you are imprisoned act as a prophylactic for would-be criminals? No

Might it help prisoners on the path of rehabilitation by making them feel more a part of society? It may only be a tiny effect, but yes.

streborjm

Ollie

Funny how people have such different impressions.I thought Andrew Neil handled the odious little slimeball with exemplary restraint. And smug? The Dimblebys? Paxman?
Weird. Oh, well takes all sorts.

Edward McLaughlin

Tim Worstall

"...that the law, as currently constituted, says they must, means that if we are to have the rule of law then prisoners must have the vote."

Your phrase 'currently constituted', reminds us that laws are put there by men and women and are mutable. Laws have the purpose of ensuring that things are done how we would like them, rather than being allowed to descend into chaos. Is the fulfilment of this to be monitored and the efficacy of our laws and our lawmakers revised, or are we to numbly retort over and over 'It's the law'?

That men like John Hirst can appear to demand rights, having done what he did, is to many people, a sure sign that chaos is returned.

TrevorsDen

finchy talks sense as does normanc.

Lets hold our noses and encourage the govt to minimise the problem as much as possible.

The actual logistics of sorting out the vote is the issue for me. They will have to be registered in a constituency and then we must presume be given a postal vote.
What a pain (Thomas or otherwise!)

RobertD

A vote and election is not a human right in the same class as a right to life or a right to a family life. It is a civic priviledge that can be suspended or with drawn as part of a punishment for criminal behaviour.

What we have in the ECHR and the UK Human Rights Act are high statements of principles drawn up in a general way without regard for how they fit into the details of the rest of the legal framework of the country. Instead of doing the hard work of applying the principles to the practicality of arrangements they have delegated the task to unaccountable judges.

No wonder that peole are angry at the result, and furious that they have no way of influencing the outcome. However it's not the judges but the lazy grandstanding politicians who are to blame, with Blair leading the guilty. His arrogant negilgence in this area is as damaging to British social cohesion as Iraq.

Craig Strachan

Funny, I heard Hirst on the radio the other day and thought he came across okay. Seeing him, I want to spew.

Jez

Will it cost anything to do?

Yes.

Don't do it then.

Simple.

Simone

Finchy, how does having the vote help their rehabilitation?
Is an axe murderer going to feel remorse just because he has put a tick in a box? This man doesn't feel remorse now, and he's back living in society!

Prison is meant to involve punishment. We withdraw freedom and privilege. We are forever favouring the criminal rather than the victim in this country. It's sickening.

Frank P

Now, now! You're just picking on him because he made a pejorative remark about your boss's Irish Jig.

On the other hand, surely the prerequisite of claiming human rights is that one is human. Clearly the thing depicted above is not.

Verity

Andy Leeds, He got away with the fancy footwork of diminished responsibility because he and his barrister found, to their amazement, that he has something called Aspergere's Syndrome. Anyway, no one could prove he didn't have Aspergere's Syndrome, which sounds like something similar to ADD and a lot of other "syndromes", that excuse one from all kinds of behaviour.

Ben Donnelly

I don't have a problem with prisoners having a vote in principle. But if they do have the vote then they need to have an INFORMED vote.

They will need access to all the same information that other voters have. It would be very easy to mislead prisoners with propaganda and other misinformation. Most prisoners would vote whichever way they believed would get them out of prison the soonest and the political tactics to win the votes of prisoners would be rather messy. Give them the vote by all means but make sure they're on the same page as everyone else when voting.

For example if the prisoners are going to have a vote on May the 5th for the referendum on AV I want to know so I can personally go in there and sell them the Yes campaign between now and then.

Vulture

Too many posters here take the line that
'We have made our bed so we must lie on it'.
WE did not make that bed. THEY did.
Free people have the right to re-make their beds if they find them uncomfortable. Especially if the beds conerned have been made by a bunch of Belgian lawyers.

These laws were made by a European elite increasingly out of touch with ordinary people and plain common sense.

As was the law abolishing the death penalty which has killed many hundreds more innocents than guilty lives it has saved. A law meant to preserve what its ineffable incarnation Woy Jenkins called 'the civilised society' has brought us many miles closer to the barbarism represented at its worst by Hirst.

And Tim Worstall, to compare this piece of excrement Hirst with a thinker like Paine shows a very warped judgement. The fact that we give this scumbag a platform and TV time shows just how very low we have sunk.

And the fact that you and so many others defend tuis odious creep and the 'law' shows that the true enemies of our time are the demented left-liberals within.

Lucky, as the Greek poet Cavafy presciently wrote, that the barbarians are coming to put an end to this ripe mess. With a scimitar in one hand and a Koran in the other, they will do for both the liberals and Hirst in one fell swoop.

Tarka the Rotter

@Jez

a maxim we should apply to all government ventures I think... well said!

normanc

"Free people have the right to re-make their beds if they find them uncomfortable."

This is precisely why we must cheer this decision from the rooftops. Would that we had a decision like this coming from the European courts every week.

More nails for the bed! Sharper and sharper!

People must be stirred from apathy.

alexsandr

So we are going to give em postal votes. So what mechanism will be in pl;ace to stop interference with the voting system. Will prisoners succomb to bullying to vote a certain way. Or even sell their votes for some cigarettes or drugs. Someone who knows how prisons work needs to think VERY carefully how this silly law will be enacted.

Vulture

@ Nomanc

'...all sleeping the deep, deep sleep of England from which I sometimes fear we shall never wake until we are jerked out of it by the roar of bombs'. [Closing words of George Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia' 1937.]

Well the bombs came, didn't they? And they have and will come to us too. Trouble is, I fear our sleep has become a deep coma.

Will

Common Law can always be replaced by Statute Law. Unfortunately our Parliament only seems able to pass statutes approved by Brussels.

Fergus Pickering

A vote is a civil right. It is not a human right. If it were then the insane could vote and children could vote. If the present law says prisoners should vote, then it is a bad law and should be repealed.

I must say that guy is the best living argument for capital punishment I have seen. Come on chaps, who wants the bugger hanged?

Airlie Belvoir

Chopping up your landlady is one thing, but mocking Brillo's coiffure - that is over the top!

Colin

Whatever you think of him as a person, he certainly ripped Andrew Neil a new one during this interview. Not just by making his Ginger Rodent/Wig comment, but by continually pointing out the inconvenient facts of the case, in the face of some pretty hostile questioning by Neil.

The most disturbing aspects of this case aren't, in my opinion, the behaviour and attitude of this creature, but the legal implications of this perverse ruling and the impotent rage of Davy Blah Blah...

Ex-Tory voter

"BTW, who were the legislators who passed this law/bill whatever? Were they expecting to win the votes of the public?" Alas, Verity, it came from our Lords and Masters in Brussels. Would that we were rid of them.

Tarka the Rotter

of course, if you give prisoners the vote, that means they are on the electoral register - if they are on the electoral register, they can be called up for jury service. Mmmmmmmmm now that's going to be a hoot, isn't it?

Lirra Raenic

This man is a sad, sad moron. He is living proof that prioners should NOT be granted a vote. I can't help but feel they chose to interview him with the sole intention of devaluing this cause.

But regardless a tariff system may be implementable and understandable i.e. a man in prison for a quite "Insignificant" crime serving a year or so could and possibly should be allowed to vote.

But voting shouldn't be interlinked with human rights. It is in accordance with your civil rights that you are granted a vote and if you behave deploarably (as this man did) then you no longer deserve that right.