The British taxpayer should not be bailing out Ireland

Yam Yam

Hear, hear.

David Ossitt

We did not join the club and so we should not pay a single penny.

Verity

Ireland joined the club with illusions of wealth and grandeur. We didn't. Their bed. Lie in it.

local local

It appears Iceland have managed their way out of their crisis, which involved similar disasterous over-lending by banks.

Ireland should be left to do the same and offered no more than a guarantee from the ECB that if they cannot re-finance their debt in the future, it will grant them loans at a reasonable interest rate.

However, this will just delay the inevitable. Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Greece must leave the Euro.

Rhoda Klapp

I see no great harm in suporting Ireland with at least guarantees. If we do it on our own, and with some hope of consideration when we need something from them. I do see harm in the UK putting in to some EU bailout plan, where the fund buys us nothing and may be misused in future. I have a rather large suspicion that this crisis is being blown up by the EU for its own advantage, the the Euro is not a good thing to save, and that this whole thing will prove a lever towards direct taxation of EU citizens into EU coffers, and that our useless lot will give in to it.

Verity

Let Jerry Adams bail them out. He could go to Boston and raise some money for them. I'm sure Lord Tebbitt, Margaret Thatcher, the people of Manchester and others would contribute to his plane fare.

Fatbloke on tour

MS

Never mind Ireland it will take more than £7bill to bail out Sniffy's and all the other dog boilers credibility after all the rubbish they spouted about how the Emerald Isle was on the money regarding sorting out the banking crisis and the Credit Crunch.

Tripe then, expensive tripe now.

Finally when will the TPA be changing its name in light of all your members who do not pay tax, all your members who would love to pay corporation tax at Irish rates and all your members who sweat their accountants to lower their tax bills well below the normal PAYE rates?

Until this happens the stench of hypocrisy will follow around the pronouncements of the TPA on any financial topic.

Tax Payers Alliance my arse, tax avoiding chancers more like.

C Powell

RBS's exposure to Irish banks is c. £4.3 billion; HSBC's is c. £816 mio. Who knows what the exposure of other banks is?

If Ireland goes under, we may find ourselves having to bail out our own banks (again).

2trueblue

The photo above should be of A Darling. He and Brown were in charge when the agreement was made earlier this year. He raced off to the EU and made promises on behalf of the British government which we are now stuck with. Liebore laid many landmines before leaving the scene so perhaps people should have paid attention to what was going on then. Too late now mate.

Rhoda Klapp is right, there is no harm in supporting Ireland but NOT through the EU bailout, which should not be part of our remit. It is not in our interests if the Irish banks run into further trouble, they are very closely linked with ours. Their investment in our commercial property area has contributed to their banks troubles.

libertarian

@Fatbloke

Stick to pie eating, you know where you are with that.

DaveL

Just tried signing the petition, but it wouldn't let me without sharing my email address with the petition owner.

Even when I did allow it (and put a disclaimer in the comments) I got an error "SQL server had gone away"

JR

John Redwood disagrees - http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2010/11/17/how-the-eu-plans-to-control-ireland/

Although John Redwood also can't differentiate between deficit reduction, the debt Ireland racked up supporting its banking sector, and the policy issue of what could have been done by Ireland differently to get out of their banking crisis.

EC

"Ireland stands as a shining example of the art of the possible in long-term economic policymaking"

George Osborne , The Times, 2006.

How long is long term? 4 years? Oh, and not forgetting his £6 Billion Vodaphone giveaway.

Vulture

Face it: there is only one thing the Euro elite will listen to now: rioting in the streets.

Its an old Irish tradition; let them break out the pikes and the Tommy Guns from the haylofts, occupy the GPO in Dublin and roast that pig-lookalike Teashook Cowan on a big spit. With Rumpy-Pumpy as the side salad.

Worked in 89 for eastern Europe. It's the only language they'll understand.

GDT

Some people in society seem to think that other peoples hard earned money is theirs by right. Total tw*ts in my opinion. Need to get out an contribute to society rather than stealing from it.

Tiberius

Would that be Jeremy Adams, Verity, the well known cousin of Gerard Adams?

GDT

@ 2trueblue,
an important point you make. It was indeed GB and AD who laid this little booby trap. This was all dreamt up prior to the current administration.
Hopefully part of the bail out will consist of forcing RoI to increase their corporate tax rate. All we need to do then is lower the rate in UK and we can start to benefit from increased inward investment.

Jovan

British banks still have 42bn invested in Irish banks, so surely the government lending 7bn to a bailout is better than the alternative of British banks losing the entire 42bn...

And before you get too comfortable in your smug high chair; bear in mind that your government is following the same strategy of cutting public expenditure as the Irish government did almost exactly a year ago.

Maggie

......"It will be a great occasion but the public finances are tight and people are already asking about the cost."

Compared to the monumental wastefulness of the Millennium Dome and the Olympics, the cost of the wedding is a drop in the ocean.

Rhoda Klapp

Vulture, you know those guns are 'beyond use'.

Austin Barry

I do hope the Germans will be kind to us.

Sure, didn’t our former President ‘George’ de Valera trot along dutifully to the German Embassy to offer his condolences on Adolf’s death?

Rose

Why should any country bail any other country out?

Why get animated about a trading partner as close as Ireland when all that foreign aid goes to despots, kidnappers and so on?

It just seems a funny time to stop using the taxpayers' chequebook.

If you want to cut where it will work, cut local government.

Where's the consistency here?

Verity

Tiberius - Beats me. Don't follow Ireland. Can't stand the accent.

TomTom

Must keep funding banks so they don't cross-default. The Spectre of 1931 haunts Europe...first the collapse of Kreditanstalt Wien, then the Danat in Germany and Dresdner Bank and Deutsche Bank...then the inability of the Fed, Bank of England and French Central Bank to stabilise the collapsing German banking system, leading to London having to devalue as gold exited London to Paris.

That is why they bail out French and German banks in Greece; UK and German banks in Ireland, and whatever else it takes to stave off cross-default on bonds held/issued by banks to each other.

This is the beginning of the liquidation of the financial system and household assets with sovereign states following Ireland into ruin as governments underwrite bank losses.

Ireland has simply done what London did - take bank debts onto public debt

tankus

Rhoda Klapp
November 17th, 2010 4:16pm
"I see no great harm in suporting Ireland with at least guarantees"

cast iron ones !

(editor please ignore report a comment ..error)

Shane Reilly

And bring back hanging too!

TrevorsDen

Wow - over four and a half years ago Osborne said -
'After centuries of lower incomes, Irish average incomes are now 20 per cent higher than in the UK. After being held back for decades, the productivity of Irish companies has grown three times as quickly as ours over the past ten years.'
'Ireland’s education system is world-class. On various different rankings it is placed either third or fourth in the world. By contrast, Britain is ranked 33rd'
'it is shocking that the level of R&D spending actually fell in Britain last year. Ireland’s intellectual property laws give incentives for companies to innovate,'

The Irish banks however were even more flagrant in their incompetence than ours. They are in receipt of massive bail outs. That's why Ireland is in a massive mess.
Pledges made by Ireland to support its banking sector amount to 220% of the country’s annual economic output. The total loans held in Irish banks are more than 11 times the size of the economy.

davidk

"The British taxpayer should not be bailing out Ireland"

Good thinking, Sinclair. Let Ireland tumble and kiss goodbye to one of our biggests trading partners.

Good grief!

TrevorsDen

PS
I believe we should help Ireland, I hope Brown and Darling have not forced our hand. But I think offering guarantees is a bit different from giving loans.

We presumably contribut to the IMF who may well be called in.

Blaad

This may be a little simplistic but, here goes (*prepares himself for being shot down in flames*)

UK Government currently borrowing at (say) 3% and then lends it on to the Irish Government (they are currently paying more like 10%)

Isn't that a rather good deal?

(Let's assume they manage to pay it back)

Neil Turner

By their deeds shall ye know them...

This shows that Cameron and Co are committed to the EU project. How dare thay promise £7Bn to the Irish. This money either comes from the Taxpayer or borrowings.

Either way, a disgrace

Boudicca

We learnt our lesson with the ERM and White Wednesday and sensibly stayed outside the Eurozone.

Ireland freely decided to ditch the Punt and switch to the Euro. If EU Politicians want the Euro to survive, then the Eurozone countries and only the Eurozone countries should fund any bailouts.

The UK should not be contributing.

David Lindsay

It may be lost on the infra dig sort of Conservative backbencher who lionises Margaret Thatcher and imagines her to have been some sort of Eurosceptic, but the heir to the Osborne baronetcy (of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford) knows exactly what he is doing in making an offer, which cannot really be refused, to reassert Ascendancy over what has never ceased to be an integral part of the British economy, for decades complete with a currency pegged at the whatever happened to be the value of sterling, its almost identical coinage produced by the Royal Mint, as that of many Commonwealth countries still is. As the euro collapses, expect that state of affairs to be restored.

Would we have to do this for anyone else in Euroland? Only if anyone else in Euroland speaks English, has vast family ties to Britain, has always had the right to vote and stand in British elections, has never stopped providing recruits for the British Armed Forces, watches British television, listens to British pop music, has three political parties that are flagrant creatures of British intelligence (just ask Sinn Féin, not that they have been in any position to comment for a long time now) and one of which is openly funded by trade unions headquartered in Britain, and so on, and on, and on, not least including practically total economic integration with Britain, which is why we are making this offer.

They can keep their flag, their anthem, their President, their totemic use of Irish, their metric road signs, and all the rest of it. But someone, somewhere is killing the fatted calf tonight. Probably Sir Peter and Lady Osborne, of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford.

quadratus

With Ireland in such trouble there is virtue in helping a neighbour by diverting the 'Overseas Aid'millions to a better cause.
To support Ireland would lessen the exposure of British banks,nullify the argument over the prposed Overseas Aid package and take the wind out of the sails of the I.R.A/Republican rabble rousers. Perhaps a loan in return for improved goodwill is not a such a bad deal?

Andy Leeds

The Irish, along with the Greeks should never have joined the Euro. In both countries (I have residency in Greece as I live there part of the year) interest rates were far too low - probably a third of what they ought to have been - for far too long. You ended up with a huge bubble and now you have a huge bust.

In the medium term both Ireland and Greece must leave the Euro and restore their economies. They cannot do this within the Euro and if they remain eventually they will help destroy the whole system. I for one would be glad but it is the mess that this will create that worries me. But let all this be a lesson to our own stupid political class, particularly the LibDems who are Euro fanatics.

quadratus

It would be more appropriate to talk of "baling out" - as in baling out a boat to prevent it from sinking?
'Bail'is more appropriate to the Courtroom, or cricket.

BenM

Ireland got into its present troubles by pursuing policies that the unaccountable, unrepresentative and incorrectly named Taxpayers Alliance is so fond of.

The Euro is a side issue making the problems caused by neo-liberal economics policies (pursued by the TPA) that much worse.

The Taxpayers Alliance ought to hang its head in shame so we can pelt it with rotten tomatoes (and publish its funders too while it's at it).

Simon Stephenson

EC : 4.49pm

In one way the only thing wrong with Osborne's statement is the use of the word "shining". Otherwise he's completely correct in asserting, in an age when reason, reality, substance and likelihood have been replaced by impression, appearance, novelty and mere possibility, that indeed anything is possible in long-term economic policymaking - in fact in any policymaking whatsoever, economic or not, long term or short.

By eliminating the need to consider the possibilities of future catastrophes, by pretending they don't exist, there really is no longer any way of stopping them.

TrevorsDen : 5.54pm

Just as in the US and the UK, the over-extension of Ireland's banks was an integral part of the process that also led to burgeoning prosperity pre-crunch. If counter-cyclical measures had been taken to dampen down this irrational exuberance then the prosperity would not have been as great.

It's a fallacy to think that the bank failures were a process completely isolated from the general monetary and fiscal policy of the pre-crunch period, or indeed from the political forces that leaned upon business leaders at that time.

The sober analysis is that uncontrolled debt-expansion caused our societies to get at least 10, and perhaps 20 years ahead of ourselves in terms of the standards of living we should expect, and we are now in the position of having to unravel many of the economic and commercial structures put in place to deliver this to us.

My own mind cannot see any way around this, and I feel that the sooner we accept it the sooner we can start being constructive about the future.

Olaf Rye

The Irish economy is in a proper mess and the government cannot raise anymore revenue because it BORROWED so much and the economy is weak. This is why they tried to solve the problem with austerity measures, but even this was not enough. Fatbody, this is what happens when you spend and spend and believe there will never be a reckoning. The money belongs to private individuals and I cannot blame them for avoiding giving money to the politicians that have made a bad situation worse. I am sorry for the plight of Ireland, but there is no simple solution: they have lots of debt and must now live within their means. It may also inoculate them against the utter bullshit of the Eurocrats henceforth.

davidk

@ David Lindsy

A very enjoyable trenchant you put forward.

Of course, almost all the things you say about Ireland's relationship to Britain could be made about Britain's relationship to the United States!

David Lindsay

davidk, when has Britain ever been an integral part of the American economy, for decades complete with a currency pegged at whatever happened to be the value of the dollar, its almost identical coinage produced by the United States Mint?

When have Britain and post-Independece America ever had vast family ties? When have British Citizens ever had the right to vote and stand in American elections? When has either country provided recruits for the other's Armed Forces? How much British television do they watch in America, and really how much British pop music do they listen to. And so on, and on, and on. Exactly how much trade in real goods do we do with each other?

America would never bail us out, having no interest in doing so. The same thing applies in the other direction. But Britain and Ireland are a completely different story.

Kenneth Allen

In 2008 the Irish Government promised to back all the debts of Irish banks. Not just depositors but all debts.

British banks are the largest holders of this debt (about 220 billion $, German banks are just behind (about 200 billion $).

So, any bailout of Ireland by the EU or the IMF will mean money flowing back to the British banks. Maybe Fred Goodwin can feel secure that his pension is OK

The correct response to an Irish bailout is outrage that the banks will get their money without having their 'ears lowered'.

Simon Stephenson

Jovan : 5.10pm

"British banks still have 42bn invested in Irish banks, so surely the government lending 7bn to a bailout is better than the alternative of British banks losing the entire 42bn..."

Certainly it would appear that it is - but I'm not entirely convinced that the only possible outcomes are:-

1. Our 42bn is totally safe

or

2. The whole lot's gone down the tubes.

I think, although I may be wrong, that there are a number of other outcomes that are possible, so the consideration of the wisdom of providing the guarantee must be measured against all these outcomes, not just the extreme ones that your analysis suggests.

Edward McLaughlin

You know, I might have the solution to this one.

What Ireland needs to do is ship in 2 million immigrants tomorrow morning. By dinnertime they will have generated 2 million new jobs, all automatic like, just as they did in the UK.

A couple of years of this flowering of globalism and they will be well on track. With the added bonus of being really multiculti.

It's really quite simple and I'm surprised no-one else has stumbled on this.

Ali C

David Lindsay the USA bailed us out after WW2 - or don't you know what the Marshal Plan is? The UK is currently the only country to have paid it off - the huge loan they generously made to.... bail us out.

Swiss Bob

Oh, I don't know.

What's couple of billion quid more?

At least they're our 'relatives' in some sense, and if like the Germans we can take a quid pro quo, i.e. some control over their economy, it may well be worth it. . . one way or another.

2trueblue

The 10pm news says it all. We do not have the luxury of choice. Our banks are in it, so thus we are.

Richard B

@Quadratus: I believe the term is 'bailing out', as you would bail someone out of prison (i.e. get them out of trouble), rather than the dubious analogy of baling out a boat (i.e. prevent them from sinking).

Ken Bishop

"British taxpayers rejected the Euro"

Remember the election which William Hague said was a referendum on the euro? He lost it. So: the only time the Britsh were asked, they declined to vote against. They voted for Blair, who they knew was in favour of it. Fact.

red trev

Once again Britain gets screwed.We have enough trouble on our hand's cleaning up the mess caused by our own "spiv"bankers,now this,increasingly ridiculous government is about to throw good money after bad.Are we the singularly,most stupid country on the planet?For God's sake,let the bloody E.U. implode and be done with the entire socially engineered,Orwellian nightmare.

Dimoto

C.Powell "RBS's exposure to Irish banks is c. £4.3 billion; HSBC's is c. £816 mio. Who knows what the exposure of other banks is?

If Ireland goes under, we may find ourselves having to bail out our own banks (again)".

Quite so .... but I don't know where you get your numbers from, according to the Telegraph, the debt to UK banks is £140B, with £50B to RBS alone.
A 50% haircut on that little lot, would be rather more costly than a measly £6B loan.

Step forward the geniuses who thought that nationalising the two Scottish monuments to banking dis-rectitude was a good idea.

Gordon the moron ? the sage of Twickenham ?
Any more for any more ??

Major Plonquer 1

The Irish fought against the UK and killed many of our troops in an effort to be free from us. Surely now they can't come crawling back and tell us they did,'t really mean it.

They only meant they wanted political freedom but they still need to be economic slaves? No. Not for a proud nation such as Ireland.

Next they'll be telling us they can't remember where they planted the potatos again.

Fergus Pickering

Why don't the Irish just default on their debt, like Iceland or about every South American country? What would happen then? This is a serious question.

Major Plonquer 1

We should never forget that the ties between the United Kingdom (Great Britain) and Ireland (Lesser Britain) run deep. Indeed, the founder of Ireland, Alfred Guinness, was an Englishman.

London Calling

You can sign it here…

Congratulations to William and Kathleen…:) :) :)

Not available at Woolworths…

Europoly.

The Original Pieces Drawn/Modern Twist

Thimble – Ireland
Wheel Barrow – European Union
Iron – Debt
Boot – Germany
Battleship – France
Top Hat – Great Britain

The original Monopoly board
In 1904 Elizabeth "Lizzie" J. Magie, a young Quakeress from Arden, Delaware, was granted a U.S. Patent for a game called The Landlord's Game (left). Lizzie Magie was a supporter of the political economist Henry George and her game was politically inspired. The idea behind The Landlord's Game was to show how property owners became rich at the expense of impoverished tenants

EC

Simon Stephenson,

Hi Simon, I don't know about a "shining example" but in 2006 it was starting to look more like a glistening turd.

C. WHITE

Many economists have made the point that cutting the deficits this hard causes deep recession so that the value of the economy sinks but the value of the debt remains the same - the 'debt deflation trap'. Athens University professor has said that the problem will be worse in 2 years time. Normal IMF packages include default & devaluation - neither option is being taken by PIGS. Roger Bootle has said that he can't see a way out and asks for someone to tell him he is wrong.

davidk

@ David Lindsay

I suggest you read back your reply at 8.44pm last night. I thought you were being ironic at first time of reading!

I was ticking those boxes off as you were running through them!!

Derek

What interest does the British government have in bailing out Ireland? Well, Royal Bank of Scotland is said to be exposed to Irish debt to the tune of 50B sterling... And who owns RBS now?

Hands in your pockets, Englishmen, another bank goes begging.

Alan Evans

The public finances are in bad enough a state already. While Ireland is and always will be an important trading partner, this is fundamentally a problem for the Euro-zone countries and it should be up to those countries to fund the bail out.

The government is making huge cuts at home, and while I fully support those cuts because of necessity the government can't be seen to be giving mixed messages. If the cupboard is bare the cupboard is bare. To keep any public support for the cuts at home the government can't be seen to have money to hand out to other contries.

alexsandr

why doesnt HMG just buy the irish debt off UK banks
Then the money will stabalise the irish economy and rescue our banks all in one go!

Cant see adams and mcguinness et al liking that tho!

Shaun Richards/Notayesmanseconomics

I would just like to make a suggestion which is as follows. Until recently and by recently I mean Tuesday evening there was a chorus of claims in the mainstream media that the bailout of UK banks had gone so well that they could be sold off soon.

Now we are offering money to Ireland with many including me suspecting that at the bottom of this is fear as to what would happen to the exposure our banks have in Ireland if she defaulted. So in the blink of an eye we appear to have gone from Happy Christmas War is Over to possible insolvency again. Accordingly I question the competency of those who made such reports and feel that they should explain themselves.

As to Ireland I wish her well in difficult times but as I wrote today in a letter to the Evening Standard ever since the announcement of its “shock and awe” rescue package in early May Euro zone politicians have done little but boast about it. Now we find it is called upon to help what is a relatively a small nation and yet they want to drag the UK into the situation. So yet again things are not as they appear or have been claimed to be.

BalaamsAss

@ FatBloke

You either don't work or don't get paid very much then. Which is it?

SAM ARMSTRONG

The only reason I can think of that makes it worth bailing out Ireland is the fact that it's a close trading partner.

Apart from that, I fail to see any reason why we should help that country out. Let them get shafted by Germany, I do not care.

Stephen Green

Yes aleandr an act of generosity will be taken as neo-colonionism.c/f the Scot Nats and the Darien episode. That does'nt mean we shouldn't it.
Ireland claims to be a Chritian country and I believe that, at heart, it is.
One of the Chritian virtues is the ability to receive 'caritas' as well as to give it.

Stephen Green

'A modest proposal'.
How apt in this context bearing in mind the the national home of the original author of this phrase.
All banks sould be structured so that they are subject to the normal rules of capitalism so that failure means dissolution. In this way capitalism mirrors evolution by dicarding its mistakes.
The failure to apply this logic results in Nation States being the slaves of their banking systems and rating authorities.
Rumpey Pumpey was right. The end of Nation States is nigh unless they are prepared to grasp this nettle.
In 1931 the Nation States were in charge unlike now when global banking and global commerce crack the whip.
And dont they know it! Any one for bonuses?

Southern Cross

Let it be clear that I am a fierce opponent of the EU, and would gladly see it disbanded altogether. However, even though Britain is no part of the eurozone, you will have to cough up regardless, as you also belong to the IMF, and it is about an IMF/EU bail-out... Even Australia is going to end up paying for this. As far as I am concerned I would be perfectly all right with leaving the IMF as well.

SAM ARMSTRONG

Ken Bishop
November 17th, 2010 11:13pm

"Remember the election which William Hague said was a referendum on the euro? He lost it. So: the only time the Britsh were asked, they declined to vote against. They voted for Blair, who they knew was in favour of it. Fact."

So why did not Blair implement the Euro? Because he was frightened that it would mean certain defeat.

People rejected Hague because they still had the image fresh in their minds of (a) Poll Tax, and (b) all those sordid Tory sex scandals.

They didn't reject Hague because he wanted to keep the pound. And Hague's election campaign was not a referendum on the Euro. The Tories at that time were described by the MSM as fraudulent.

You cannot hide from the fact that this country does not want to abolish the pound sterling. Perhaps people like you should just go and live in the Eurozone and have done with it, instead of trying to hold back and pull down independently minded people.

Simon Stephenson

Stephen Green : 5.33pm

You're pretty close to the mark here, I think.

Thomas Smith

Britain occupies a large part of Irish territory and we divided Ireland in two weakening the entire country against their wishes.

We owe them a hell of alot more reparations than £7bn

Iain Hill

If we must pay up, for the sake of our own banks, we must extract the deal on bonuses which should have been demanded last time round.

Ken Bishop

Sam Armstrong

"They didn't reject Hague because he wanted to keep the pound. And Hague's election campaign was not a referendum on the Euro."

What evidence have you that voters were motivated in the way you describe? This is a genuine question.

Indeed it was not a referendum on the euro. However, Hague chose to say, loud and often, that it was, and he lost.

Your suggestrion that I should move elsewhere is childish. I am as entitled to a view as you are.