The new faces of Tory euroscepticism

Charles Martel

"and a handful just want out"

You must have really big hands - nearly half want us out of the EU.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/43617/almost-half-of-britons-would-vote-to-abandon-european-union/

Unless of course you mean MP's, which don't represent the opinion of the British people.

We are in-line for handing over upto 30 billion to Belgium, Portugal & Spain... I'd say that will be something that MP's will want to have a conversation about for the foreseeable future.

David Blackburn

Charles Martel,

Apologies, clarification now added. The Angus Reid poll you refer to is the one alluded to in the link at the start of my first paragraph.

Archbishop Cranmer

And while the eurosceptics fracture and fragment, obsessed with their own competing agendas and consumed with mutual loathing, the Euro-Beast continues apace, unhindered. A little like the navel-gazing Church, divided by petty turf-wars and ridden with interminable denominational disputes, while all the time a malignant spiritual power grows ever stronger, just waiting for the moment to pounce.

O, that they may be made perfect in one, that the world may know...

denis cooper

It's a deliberately anti-democratic political contrivance that Hague has had this one Bill drafted to cover three disconnected topics - disconnected in the sense that the provisions in any one of the three Parts could be put into a separate Bill and either passed or not passed without in any way impinging on the provisions in either of the other two Parts.

I'm sure that Hague would claim that he's proposed this composite Bill purely as a matter of convenience for parliamentary procedures, but clearly that would be false as there'd be no problem having three separate Bills and having the substance of each one scrutinised and debated separately.

No, the answer is that he deliberately wishes to create clouds of obfuscation and so ensure that public debate will become confused and most people will never really be able to grips with what's being done.

And what's more he has something which he wishes to hide from plain view because it's potentially a deep embarrassment to the EU, and so he's sneaking it through as Part 2, "Implementation of transitional Protocol on MEPs".

How does that Part 2 fit in with Part 1, which deals with the procedures for approving changes to the treaties and certain decisions made under the treaties, and with Part 3, which purports to affirm Parliamentary sovereignty?

In truth it doesn't fit in at all: its sole purpose is to quietly approve a new protocol to the existing treaties designed to over-ride Article 14(2) of the Treaty on European Union.

Because since the Lisbon Treaty came into force on December 1st 2009 the EU Parliament has been unlawfully constituted, with three more German MEPs sitting than is now permitted by that treaty article.

That illegality will be rectified by the new protocol (although not retroactively), but Hague would prefer not to draw attention to it by asking Parliament to approve it through a separate Bill, as could easily be done.

As for Parts 1 and 3, why are they not in separate Bills, so that we know whether we're talking about the "referendum lock" Bill or the "parliamentary sovereignty" Bill, and can discusss them separately?

So now we have the author alleging that "Opposition becomes piecemeal amid coherence. Two amendments to the EU Bill will be tabled tonight", when those two amendments should really be amendments to two different Bills debated on two entirely separate occasions.

Vulture

Blackburn writes: 'time passes and Britain is more immersed in the EU' by which he means that the EU is completing its undemocratic takeover of our once-free nation.

He might just as well have written: 'time passes and opposition to the EU tyranny has now swelled to half the population'.

Are the 50% of people who want out wrong?
Of course not: the EU is misbegotten and doomed.

Get your facts right........

"and a handful just want out and vote UKIP."

How on earth did you draw the conclusion that just a handful want out ???....

http://www.angus-reid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2010.12.06_EU_BRI.pdf

"Almost Half of Britons Would Vote to Abandon European Union

Three-in-five respondents believe EU membership has been negative for their country."

[LONDON ˇV 6 December 2010] ˇV British sentiments on the countryˇ¦s European Union (EU) membership are worsening, a new Angus Reid Public Opinion poll has found.

"In the event of a referendum on the UKˇ¦s EU membership, nearly half of Britons (48%) would vote in favour of pulling out, while 27 per cent would vote to stay"

KEY FINDINGS:

„« 59% say EU membership has been negative for the UK; 29% believe it has been positive

„« 48% (+6 since June) would vote to leave the EU in a referendum

„« 80% would vote against the UK adopting the euro; less than 10% support this course of action

David Blackburn

Get your facts right,

Err, 'Just a handful want out and vote UKIP' means precisely that. UKIP polled 920,334 votes, just 3.1 percent of the vote on a 65 percent turnout. A handful at best on a single issue. It rather reinforces the point that the eurosceptic mass is very fragmented!

And the Angus Reid poll you refer to is cited in the link on the words 'avowedly eurosceptic'.

Cityboozer

Why must we put up with a Kwasi Kwateng? Isn't a real Kwateng available?

Ithankyew

Boudicca

Vulture
January 11th, 2011 6:06pm

Well said.

It is a strange 'handfull' that want out of the EU, as David Blackburn says. Perhaps he has forgotton that at the last EU Parliamentary elections, UKIP came second - easily beating Labour and the LibDems.

Next time, if things go on the way they are with the UK contributing billions to bail out the single-currency-folly as well as increased Budget contributions, whilst raising taxes and cutting public spending here, they may well come first.

CONservative membership is at an all time low and still falling; whilst UKIP membership is rising.

It only took 300 determined Spartans at Thermapolae to hold back the might of Xerxes. A small number of determined and resolute people, fighting for their freedom, can overcome an invading force. The EU IS an invading force.

Verity

City Boozer - Funny!

David Ossitt

David Blackburn wrote “most see Brussels as an affront to elective democracy”.

The affront to democracy alone is a sufficient reason to be out.

David you might well be right that 50% of the people want out but I suspect that figure is way off of the mark.

I ask everyone that I come into contact with for their opinions on Europe and in my neck of the woods the figure must be 70/80% who would happily quit tomorrow.

Charles Martel

Mr.Blackburn,

Fair enough.

I would also question Rees-Mogg's credibility as a eurosceptic - he wants the coalition to continue after the next election, that will really help the eurosceptic cause (not).

And you also lament that the divisions between Conservatives are becoming more acute. Maybe, but not nearly as large as the disconnect between parliament and the people.

But perhaps we should be looking at why there are these divisions between Eurosceptics, where is the political leadership?

But there's the rub, if you are in favour of Better Off Out, you are basically never going to get into Cameron's government - a strong de-motivator/de-mobiliser.
It's also a very unhealthy attitude in a representative style democracy and a subversion of Parliamentary democracy.

If you could plot a graph of Tory Euroscepticism vs. Time, it would end up looking like the famous 'Hockey Stick' from the IPCC, it's peak being close to the election and it's trough being straight after.

As long as people are thick enough to believe them and carry on voting for them, then they will continue to do it.

Publius

Increasingly my mind turns to the seemingly unshakable tyranny of the old Eastern bloc. Yet one day it was there, the next, it was gone.

So with the EU. The structures remain, but the belief has gone. You can see it in the Eurocrats' eyes.

There is fear in those pink overfed faces. They know their time is up.

Gavin

Kwarteng has an r in it.

dorothy wilson

Publicis is probably right. I am profoundly eurosceptic and have been called everything from anti-European to a little Englander in the letters column of my local press.

However, the EU now seems to be like a train travelling on a single track to destruction. And it could well be Germany that drives the engine to the final impact point.

We can only hope that we don't get hit by too much of the scattering rubble.

wrinkled weasel

City Boozer: funny!

Now that we have sorted out who is doing what to who and in what quantities, surely everyone can see that we are being boiled like frogs over the EU issue. If Cameron allows a drip by drip ceding of our sovereignty to Brussels he will ultimately be responsible for more misery than Blair.

Get your facts right.........

David Blackburn,

I was refering to public opinion in general even though I quoted the UKIP comment of yours.

The UKIP vote does not reflect the actual feeling of the British public on the subject of membership of the EU.

Further European integration is exactly the kind of constitutional question that hits all the criteria for a national referendum :

-It is an issue that divides all the main parties.

-it cannot easily be settled at general elections.

-it is an issue of major constitutional significance.

- it is an issue that sets Parliament against people.

All three Political parties have consistently failed to discuss and make the case for EU membership. Party management and control, for all three main parties, now means that Parliament's position on the EU is way out of touch with the movements in public opinion over the years.

This divide is becoming extremely dangerous and the EU issue must be settled once and for all - by a national referendum

Dimoto

Cranmer is correct.
We were assured that with the new, hugely expanded EU, Britain would have more sway and allies and a better chance for reform - more hopeless optimism.
Instead, the increased complexity and potential for horse-trading, has just allowed the politburo to further increase it's power.

Fex Urbis

What does Jacob Rees-Mogg's nanny think?

red trev

As a Socialist,and thus no friend of the Tory right,I simply cannot credit why they don't stop the messing about and get their act together.This matter goes beyond our local political differencies.Getting us out of the E.U. and restoring our democracy is of such crucial importance that it utterly transcends all other questions.As I said,I am a socialist,but I will gladly give my total support to any government that grasps the nettle and gives the people the chance to have their say on getting the hell out of a structure which is fundementally evil.The Tory right can speak for the whole nation on this so,for God's sake,get it together.

John Bracewell

Charles Martel.
You are right, Mr Rees-Mogg's eurosceptism and his wish to see coalition government after the next election are totally incompatible. Coalition with the LibDems will never allow for any meaningful anti-europe views to be acted upon, just talked about, whilst the EU bandwagon goes rolling along.

Charles Martel

John Bracewell.
Indeed and strangely, judging by opinion polls, LibDem voters are more EUsceptic than Labour voters - a side effect of importing 3 million voters I suppose?

Politics is a complete mess in this country and the best we can do to sort it out is hold a referendum on AV.
And yet according to the press we have some sort of Cameroon yellow-blue ultra revolution going on.

Back in the real world, absolutely nothing has changed since May, in fact from a proper Conservative's prospective (i.e. not TrevorDen or Holly) it's got a whole lot worse.

Although I cautiously reserve some optimism, like Publius says, I think the EU is heading for destruction sooner rather than later.

normanc

How many people voted UKIP in elections where they have a chance of winning i.e. European? Is that still classed as a handful or is it perhaps two handfuls?

So confusing this technical language.

Let's face it, you can use votes cast in any particular election to put whatever spin you want on something. It says more about the person writing the piece than anything else.

In this case, it's to try and make Eurosceptics appear like a small number of swivel eyed extremists (or 'far right' if you prefer the language of Rod Liddle) rather than a majority of the country.

Major Plonquer 1

The UK should leave the EU. Instead we should join in a new union with China. After all, they have a better economy and a more representative form of government.

Andre

Cityboozer I think I'd rather his brother - Quite Kwarteng

Yam Yam

Much as I admire them, those commentators - like Fraser Nelson and many of his Speccie colleagues - who loath the EU's centralising collectivism, but still maintain that Britain should retain its membership of it, are sadly akin to those proverbial battered wives who shrug off the black eyes and bruised arms whilst even so telling all who will listen that their abusive husbands are gentle, loving souls really.

Wake up, guys. The whole raison d'etre of the EU is to create an all-consuming, all-encompassing superstate that has effectively dissolved any concept of national independence. If that is not what you want then have the bottle to admit - like many us who were previously 'Europhiles' - that this construct is beyond redemption.

Like the battered wife, the time is long overdue for Britain to pack its bags and file for divorce.

Bexleyite

Andre - shouldn't that be Kwite Kwarteng?

David Lindsay

There turned out to be all of 27 of them last night. Admittedly, it was the wrong amendment. But even so.

Andre

Bexleyite yes indeed. I guess I was to quick ...kwik?

hexhamgeezer

DB says that the eurosceptic mass is fragmented. Isn't it the case that every 'mass' is fragmented in the sense that it's coalition of various linked interests? He lists a few reasons for 'eurosceptism' (although not nearly enough) in a way that suggests they are generally concerned with single issues. Isn't the truth of the matter that the thinking person, or eurosceptic as some call them, has a whole host of reasons which unite them grounded on fact for wanting out or, at the very least, a radical renegotation of our relationship with the EU. Democrats, or eurosceptics as some call them, wish to have a say in this thing in which we somehow have 'become more immersed in' in case we somehow 'get immersed in' even further despite Hague's forthcoming cast iron red line constitution guaranteeing Bill.

Mr B says that opposition to the EU current Bill is incoherent. This is a truly Orwellian distortion. Is support for the EU and the Bill coherent? No - it is piecemeal and fragmented but there's no danger of the 2011 Speccy saying so. One cannot claim that the paid for Govt vote counts as coherence. The Lib Dems (who are neuralgic when it comes to EU democracy) seem to have dropped demands for an 'out' referendum (funny how that demand melted away in talks with Cameron's crew) and will sign anything that accepts and endorses Lisbon. Is Labour's pro-EU support coherent? Demands for CAP reform and their 'red lines' melted away as quickly as the rebate or a cast iron guarantee.

This Bill is effectively an endorsement of Lisbon which Cameron, Clegg and Milliband know has a number of ways in which it can circumvent anything a nation state puts on the statute book. Blair didn't care about that as he wanted Van Rumpy's job and Brown knew it which is why he came in through the back door at the last minute to sign it.

As anyone who has had the misfortune to look at the Lisbon Treaty knows, it is deliberately written in a way to prevent understanding - legalese doesn't quite do justice to the wilfull opaqueness and awkwardness of its opening pages.

As Denis Cooper so clearly says earlier, this Bill is an attempt to confuse seperate issues which will succeed as most MPs have only a partial understanding at best of the arsenal that Lisbon can deploy.

Even Yvette Cooper (FFS) has said " the bill is so badly drafted and contradictory that it could lead to a lawyers' paradise where important decisions happen in court rather than Parliament." (And I hope thats the last time I cite that commisar).

Incoherent opposition or inconvenient?

Brian Vissian

Message to all Eurosceptics stop hiding behind a word and do somthing?