The Tories take the train to war
David Blackburn 6:32pm
Philip Hammond should be wary of the ladies of Cranford. The advent of the railways was
met with considerable disquiet in rural England, depicted by Elizabeth Gaskell in both Cranford and North and South.
High-speed rail has inspired another wave of determined conservatism in the shires. It’s a proper grassroots movement. For months now, Tory-controlled Buckinghamshire has warned the government that its councils and associations would oppose the development. Cabinet Ministers whose seats are local have supported their constituents, but the resentment is unchecked and it will damage the Conservatives to an extent. Last week, I met two lifelong Buckingham Conservatives who had torn-up their membership cards in protest at what they termed:
‘Another government that gives the finger to rural interests.’
Already the few Conservative MPs who are, first and foremost, members of the Countryside Alliance are being urged to reject the government’s plans.
The breach between county Tories and distant urban Conservatives date to the days of the Turnip Taliban rather than the formation of the coalition. Modernising Tory HQ has always avoided the problem; complacent that its detractors are just a titled and tweeded fraternity. Perhaps this tempted Hammond to denounce his adversaries as ‘nimbys’ (£). The suburban millionaire was unwise to resort to insult, a mistake doubled when he failed to invite the five affected local councils to today’s consultation. The contrast between Hammond’s dogmatic outburst and the gentle trinity of localism, decentralisation and the big society is as ironic as it is clear. After all, this government is supposed to be reforming not reoffending.
However, plenty of think tanks, advisory bodies and businesses believe that the government is right to resist the desires of ordinary people. The Campaign for Better Transport told PoliticsHome that the route must go through Birmingham. Arguments in favour of high-speed rail insist that extra capacity will invigorate the economy and go some way to bridging the divide between north and south; and they are compelling. But it is up to Hammond to convince those who will be adversely affected that their sacrifice is worthwhile. Or, as Mrs Gaskell put it, that ‘the future must be met, however stern and iron it be.’
Previous
Verityred
February 28th, 2011 6:50pm Report this commentFor gods sake let's have fast and decent trains in this country. Kent has an excellent HS line but that's not enough.
Commentator
February 28th, 2011 6:56pm Report this commentThe whole project is cultural vandalism and a monstrous waste of public money. The same goals could be achieved at a fraction of the cost with some minor improvements to the West Coast mainline.
Richard Calhoun
February 28th, 2011 7:03pm Report this commentI am from Buckinghamshire and support HS2.
Do we really want a country preserved in aspic?
Those of us lucky enough to live in the Shires should respect that and support such infrastructure that will be to the benefit of the Country and the majority of it's citizens
Extra capacity on the Railways will be vital to an efficient 21st Century industrial country and we should be encouraging it to happen more quickly and for the ' Y ' to reach Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Where has our ambition gone?
In2minds
February 28th, 2011 7:10pm Report this commentSo the PM backs off with the forest policy but goes ahead with this, the man is a fool.
Richard Calhoun
February 28th, 2011 7:12pm Report this commentCommentator, you are not being accurate, the only way to achieve a large extra capacity on the railways is by building HS2.
Edward
February 28th, 2011 7:19pm Report this comment"However, plenty of think tanks, advisory bodies and businesses believe that the government is right to resist the desires of ordinary people."
Any overlap between this group and those who supported Brown's economic policies at the time?
In2minds
February 28th, 2011 7:21pm Report this commentAs this government thinks we can generate enough electricity for our needs with wind farms what happens on windless day when all that invigorating growth wants to speed northwards at 250mph?
AndyinBrum
February 28th, 2011 7:32pm Report this commentCommentator, no it could WCML is at capacity, HSR needs tracks as straight as possible, WCML doesn't provide that. HSR is not that noisy it doesn't have a detrimental impact once built, & it's considerably better than more traffic on congested roads or in the air.
It's NIMBYism & should be fought vigorously.
Commentator
February 28th, 2011 7:39pm Report this commentThis is utter rubbish. There is absolutely no need to squander tens of billions on having tracks as straight as possible so as to cut a mere 20 minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham. The cost-benefit analysis for this vanity project simply doesn't stack up and who wants to get to Birmingham that much quicker anyway? I routinely use the West Coast mainline to destinations well north of Birmingham: it is now very quick and you can log onto the internet all the way. The money would be much better spent on an airport in the Thames Estuary and closing down the eyesore of Heathrow.
strapworld
February 28th, 2011 7:41pm Report this commentThe money would be far better spent rebuilding the lines Beeching closed.
That would attract far greater public support than this ridiculous scheme.
david
February 28th, 2011 7:50pm Report this commentA good one for UKIP to play on in those seats come the GE.
Norman Dee
February 28th, 2011 8:07pm Report this commentIf this is to come, then let us start by making sure it does come to the UK in full, IE British built trains, (look at the fuss in France because someone has dared to order new Tunnel trains from Germany), and is constructed by a British firm, not us supplying labour only to a foreign firm.
Nice thought, but I guess Japanese trains on a line built by SNCF.
Chris
February 28th, 2011 8:38pm Report this commentAnyone who tears up a supposed lifelong allegiance as soon as they perceive a threat to their comfy personal lot is pretty pathetic.
duc de montesquieu
February 28th, 2011 8:50pm Report this commentRun it out of Paddington via Reading (and on to Bristol and Plymouth) and let's have a decent rail service for those in the south west. Run it north past from Reading past Didcot power station and up to Brum from there. Job done and let the nimbys go back to their flower arranging.
barnacle bill
February 28th, 2011 8:52pm Report this commentPerhaps the simple answer to this is to bypass Birmingham and go straight for Leeds/York from London.
Leave the shires to themselves and let the benefits of high speed rail connections go to those who appreciate them.
Nick Harrington
February 28th, 2011 8:53pm Report this commentSeems a heap of money to save just 10 minutes on a trip to B'ham, while at the same time avoiding B'ham town centre, Heathrow and a good London departure point.
Electrification, longer platforms and upgrading current routes will save our country billions. Maybe one of the Eds could give this some focus? The cynic in me thinks this might really be a conduit expensed BBC executives, presenters and guests to Manchester. Most of us couldn't afford an expected £200 return fare.
If every Conservative council is both opposing HS2 and funding fighting funds against the "Conservative-led Government" (mine, Warwickshire some £100k) might CCHQ just pause to consider there's a problem.
I note ConservativeHome's @TimMontgomerie ignoring my request to submit an article against HS2. Couldn't even be bothered to reply. CH and CCHQ not listening again.
Nick Harrington
Conservative Candidate for a ward in Warwickshire District Council.
Perry
February 28th, 2011 8:55pm Report this commentWould these be the same mindless Torys who elected the Heir to Blair as Leader?
If so, tough.
blairf
February 28th, 2011 9:11pm Report this commentHSR only benefits the urban elites of UK (surprise surprise the self same groups that populate the think tanks/bodies/pressure groups in favour of it). Getting to Brum via HSR will be slower than currently achievable for all of the Northern Home Counties, and even parts of North London (Harrow to central brum 2.5 hours now, HSL with transfers ~2.5 hours). HSR projects are *always* over-forecast and the benefits usually fail to materialise, see Chunnel, HS1 etc
GDS
February 28th, 2011 9:31pm Report this commentThese people are clearly monumentally stupid and therefore not Tory.
AJC
February 28th, 2011 9:33pm Report this commentIsn't HS2 just part of the Grand Design?
TEN-T / Transport infrastructure
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/index_en.htm
Richard Calhoun
February 28th, 2011 9:43pm Report this commentCommentator, please broaden your mind !
We are short of rail capacity going forward, by adding to the existing would give us very little expansion.
If we go forward to HS2 it will enable us to expand with the latest technology without disturbing the current rail infrastructure unduly.
You must be aware that HS2 will go beyond Birmingham??
Richard Calhoun
February 28th, 2011 10:00pm Report this commentNick Harrington, as you are an aspiring politician it would be inspiring to see you leading rather than following.
At the very least shouldn't you be giving the pro's and con's of both sides of the argument???
Yow Min Lye
February 28th, 2011 10:05pm Report this commentNo doubt the tweedy shiristas aren't averse to adding to the noise pollution of West London when they jet off on the holidays from Heathrow. Or the air pollution of the West Midlands as they cruise the M6 to their second homes in the Lake District.
In2minds
February 28th, 2011 10:11pm Report this comment@AJC - Yes this train is an EU project and perhaps that's why Cameron will not dare to give us a referendum on anything related to the EU.
Ali C
February 28th, 2011 10:23pm Report this commentAlas the NIMBY won't ever be convinced. HS2 will allow folk in Birmingham and further out to commute and allow firms to relocated out and allow those at the other end to commute. The SE is too crowded but the jobs are there - surely this is a good idea and will take folk off the roads? (although please get the fuel tax off asap)
blairf
February 28th, 2011 10:41pm Report this commentyow min lye
Have you looked at the noise pollution corridors of Heathrow? The shiristas are the ones worst affected.
And the M6 only starts in the West Midlands not the home counties. But inadvertently you raise an intersting point...
... the current business cases all realy on business as usual ICE transport. If electric takes off then all bets are off, normally this would be a bit of red herring but transport business cases usually last 40 years....
...40 frickin years....
...are we really saying all the rules/assumptions will still be valid in 40 years. Imagine if they pumped £40 big ones into electric cars.
Marcher Baron
February 28th, 2011 11:20pm Report this commentHS2 will cost a small fortune and for what? A 30 minute gain on travel from London to Birmingham! In the process it will scar some superb countryside. All pain for very little gain. If they want to invest in rail (and I think that would be a very good idea) then they should look at linking towns that were once served by BR before the axe fell. Chester is 20 miles north of me. If I want to get to Chester by rail I need to go 20 miles in the opposite direction and wait half an hour before boarding a train that will take me to my destination. Total time including getting to the station about 1.5 hours. I can drive there in 40 minutes. It used to be possible to get a train direct. I'm sure my experience isn't unique.
Edward Sutherland
February 28th, 2011 11:30pm Report this commentPhilip Hammond being a seasoned politician ought to realise that he can't have his cake and eat it. If HS2 through the heart of the Chilterns is the only viable route then so be it. But then if he and the government have the courage of their convictions, they should realise their will be a political price to pay at the next election in a swathe of safe Tory seats. But I suppose the question the Chiltern and Warwicks electors need to ask themselves is whether any ameliorative measures granted for the line by an incoming Labour administration are likely to be any better than those likely to be on offer now.
yank
February 28th, 2011 11:38pm Report this commentWell, I'd predict that the wets will sever their relationship with conservatives, and with the mainstream of the country really, if they push this new burst of spending during their alleged era of "austerity".
Go ahead and ridicule the opposition to this boondoggle. Go ahead and shriek NIMBY. That's all going to have its inevitable effect. And not one the wets desire.
steve
March 1st, 2011 8:06am Report this commentI like the idea of high speed rail, but with 2 lines doing the same job this will end up as the railway for the rich, with the poor stuck on the WCML. Unless there is a fare guarantee I don't see the point of spending money on this line.
Verityred
March 1st, 2011 8:14am Report this commentLove some of the incredible stupidity from the dinosaur right. The High Speed Line in Kent threads it's way through the fields and hills rather stylishly, and even beautifully. Stop polarising the debate, the countryside is far more at risk from endless road building and creeping town and village extension.
BTW Commentator, I live on the Thames Esturary, happy to wish a whole huge airport onto others are you not? Fool.
daniel maris
March 1st, 2011 9:03am Report this commentSomeone once remarked that, in the long run, it is much better to pay say twice the market value of a house for people affected by such projects and absorb that cost nationally (in terms of the national economy it's not really a cost) - that would be the best way of dealing with Nimbyism.
This country does need HSR. Not only that, it needs highly subsidised HSR - because that is an effective way of spreading out economic activity from the South East to other parts of the country.
If people could commute from Liverpool to London in an hour we would see a run on those Liverpool homes and we would see Liverpudlians commuting to work in building trades and so on...cue Scouser jokes...
AndyinBrum
March 1st, 2011 9:16am Report this commentThe same people who complain about HS2 are the same ones who complain about creaking infrastructure, congestion on the roads & over crowded trains.
Cake and eat it morons
Rhoda Klapp
March 1st, 2011 9:47am Report this commentAndyinbrum, there is no contradiction. We would rather have the money spent wisely. We do not think this is wise. We do think it is being spent largely for the benefit of the corporate participants rather than the public.
Commentator
March 1st, 2011 10:07am Report this commentCentral Office's stormtroppers really are out in force today, doing what New Labour does best....lying and smearing. Andy in Brum, the only moron on this thread is you. If you could read (apparently you can't ...must be that West Midlands comprehensive education), you would appreciate that people here think the money can be far better spent to achieve the same goal and indeed more. Sorry to disturb the comfort zone of your chip-on-shoulder bigotry.
The idea of a large Thames Estuary airport next to the home of the bile-ridden cretin, Verityred, sounds better and better. Of course Verityred is happy for the inhabitants of West London to have their lives blighted by Heathrow: no nimbyism there.
It is utterly delusional to imagine that people are going to live in Liverpool and Birmingham and spend a fortune travelling on a vanity project which will probably deliver them to the wrong part of London. As things stand, getting commuters from Kent to use HS1 has run into big problems, not least because it is very expensive. Philip Hammond is the Marie Antoinette of transport policy and of course lives in Belgravia.
Rhoda Klapp
March 1st, 2011 10:12am Report this commentDaniel M, would you like to even guess at the annual cost of commuting via HST from Liverpool to London? Now, how much would that affect what you can afford to pay in a mortgage?
Verityred
March 1st, 2011 10:44am Report this commentCommentator - Thin skinned and prone to anger it would appear. Fits with your Colonel Blimp attitude. Have a sit down.
langbourner
March 1st, 2011 10:52am Report this commentSome recommended reading:
Triumph of the City
by Edward Glaeser
Living in the countryside and preaching to other people about how to preserve it is hypocritical.
anne allan
March 1st, 2011 10:53am Report this commentI assume travellers currently get to Brum by train, not stage coach.
This means there must be a railway line already in place; why cannot that be upgraded?
On the one hand this country is broke, on the other, we can waste billions on getting to Birmingham 20 minutes earlier and trash a swathe of what's left of the countryside in a grossly overcrowded island.
Business travellers work on the journey, so they just tap away at laptops whether it takes 2 hour or 2 hours 20 minutes. This is a ridiculous vanity project (and Freud would have a field day with it - politicians substitute big trains for big military hardware).
Commentator
March 1st, 2011 11:05am Report this commentHa ha look who's talking. I'm neither a Colonel nor do I wear tweed so your pathetically predictable little smear (no doubt dictated to you by Steve Hilton) falls flat.
Tankus
March 1st, 2011 11:39am Report this commentPaddington to Fishguard .... If the Neds are going to get it then so should the taffs
John Court
March 1st, 2011 1:30pm Report this commentI support the principle, but we are aiming behind the target. This will take decades, so let's put something world class in. 300 mph and right into Scotland, reducing domestic air travel.
tb
March 1st, 2011 1:31pm Report this commentPersonally I'd rather have the money spent on ensuring that the current services run on time rather than having a scheduled time 20 minutes shorter (on paper).
Ash
March 1st, 2011 1:47pm Report this commentOn the contrary, far from falling flat, I thought 'Verityred's' comment abour 'Commentator's' musings is the best retort on here by far. Well said - anyone agree?
Commentator
March 1st, 2011 3:41pm Report this commentClearly not: you're on your own although you have Verityred for "company" - you deserve each other.
In2minds
March 1st, 2011 4:14pm Report this comment@John Court - March 1st, 2011 1:30pm -
"This will take decades - and right into Scotland" -
But why stop there? According to the warmists our climate will be such that we could grow pineapples in the far north in the near future. Why not all the way to the Arctic?
Ash
March 1st, 2011 6:22pm Report this commentGood news regarding the commitment on electrification of the Great Western Main Line from the Government today. A positive week for the railway industry...
Dominic
March 2nd, 2011 12:32pm Report this comment"The whole project is cultural vandalism and a monstrous waste of public money. The same goals could be achieved at a fraction of the cost with some minor improvements to the West Coast mainline"
Rubbish! The only way High Speed rail can work is if it has a separate dedicated line. You can't mix high speed and traditional rail. And the cost per mile is a fraction of London Cross Rail. Now which is a waste of money?
Dominic
March 2nd, 2011 12:40pm Report this comment"This is utter rubbish. There is absolutely no need to squander tens of billions on having tracks as straight as possible so as to cut a mere 20 minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham."
It is not going to be just Birmingham. The full plan is to extent it to Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow and Edinburgh, slashing journey times. Obviously the time benefit in closer desintations is not going to as great, but in order to get to further destinations, it has to go to Birmingham first.
Dominic
March 2nd, 2011 12:53pm Report this comment"On the contrary, far from falling flat, I thought 'Verityred's' comment abour 'Commentator's' musings is the best retort on here by far. Well said - anyone agree?"
Yes, spot on. Plus he is talking crap, as I have pointed out.
Dominic
March 2nd, 2011 1:01pm Report this commentCurrently train journeys from Manchester to Birmingham take 1.5 hours, the same as it does to drive. Consequently, nobody takes the train. With HS2 (Phase 2), it will 40 minutes. Manchester to London 1hr20 as opposed to 2hrs08. What are we waiting for? Just get it built!
Peter Davidson
March 23rd, 2011 3:46pm Report this comment@duc de montesquieu: "Run it out of Paddington via Reading (and on to Bristol and Plymouth) and let's have a decent rail service for those in the south west. Run it north past from Reading past Didcot power station and up to Brum from there. Job done and let the nimbys go back to their flower arranging."
@duc de montesquieu
I'm sure those residing in close proximity to the existing route proposal will welcome your idea with open arms but what will those who suddenly find themselves in the path of the new route think - cue, new set of NIMBYS up in in arms!
Does it not occur to (perhaps not?) that a great deal of research has already gone into this project - the proposed route does represent the best value for money in terms of economic and transport benefits (sorry @Commentator but you are utterly wrong - you don't live close to the proposed route by any chance?).
It's time to stop whinging and start building - Britain deserves a rejuvenated rail network fit for the 21st century - HS2 is simply the first piece in that long overdue jigsaw!
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