Bin Laden strikes from beyond the grave

strapworld

Mr Blackburn. Normally you write extremely well. I have to say that this has to rank as your poorest.

Do you suggest we never 'take out' the terrorist leaders? Let them run amok for fear of them doing another dastardly and cowardly act?

Spreading of Human Rights!! and economic opportunity through the agents of soft power! Whatever does the term 'soft power' mean please? As for the rest of that sentence, they do not want equality for the females in their society, they do not want human rights (although the thought of sending out the armies of Human Rights activists to help Afghanistan and Pakistan achieve the 'freedoms' we have is rather a wonderful, yet comical, consideration!).

The world is a far better place without the odious Bin Laden and, please remember Mr Blackburn, we suffered similar attacks when the man was alive.

The time has most certainly come to look long and hard at the enemy within our shores and our attitude to allowing terroists and those that support terrorism to live amongst us. That would take leadership. Perhaps the new revitalised Cameron, egged on by the Taxpayers Alliance and the NO campaign to grow some balls, may decide that is the battle he should stage.

Nicholas Hallam

If we see every terrorist outrage as an act of revenge, we cannot fail to see our own actions as responsible for the carnage. We should know by now that terrorists rarely lack pretexts for their actions. In particular, Islamic terrorists see our refusal to submit to Islam as sufficient justification.

David Blackburn

Strapworld,

Perhaps the post is poorly phrased, but I think you've got the wrong of the stick. Of course the world is a better place without bin Laden and in time it could be a safer place also. But at the moment it isn't. As I wrote above, the challenge for the West and its allies is to make it so by eradicating bin Laden's idea.

john gerard

Adolf Hitler laid out his plan of war in 'Mein Kampf'. This book was available for years, from leading bookstores, long before he marched into Poland. He told us what he was going to do beforehand, and then he did it.

The jihadists have already told us, most explicitly, what they are doing, why they are doing it, and what their inspiration is. They continue to quote their handbook, chapter and verse, as the justification for their actions. Endlessly. Incidentally, this handbook is available at all leading bookshops, or on amazon if you prefer. There's even a 'kindle' version, too. Their plan, strategy, and tactics are laid out in black and white for anyone who can read.

Despite this plan of war being most considerately handed to us on a plate, The West ignores their declarations, and continues to invent rational, secular and economic reasons as to why these people do what they do. They can't vote in their countries. Unemployment is high. They're poor - no opportunity. The price of bread is through the roof. They have no 'human rights'. etc. etc. etc ad nauseum.

It doesn't matter if WE think what the Islamists say is a load of rubbish - THEY don't. To ignore what they are saying is suicidal. They believe every single word of what they are reading in the Koran/Haddiths and what they are saying to us.

And to defeat them, we must believe them.

Peter From Maidstone

How is the world less safe today when Muslims are preparing to kill other Muslims and Christians, than it was a week ago when Muslims were preparing to kill other Muslims and Christians?

Has a single Muslim who supports terrorism (and there are hundreds of thousands of then here in the UK) been made to leave?

Surely THAT is what places us in danger. Muslims have always sought to eliminate non-Muslims and especially Christians. They have done it quite successfully over the centuries. Islam has always been a threat to our society. What is new is that a corrupt government and parliament has allowed those that hate us and wish to destroy us to come and live here among us, often at our expense.

That is what must be dealt with. There will always be Muslims abroad planning to harm us, we should not allow such people the freedom to make such plans within our own nation.

michael

Terror is thoughtful cold calculating and inhuman.
The emotions surrounding revenge are very human ... revenge is only revenge.

coddeau

As Michael Moore says : "The Nazis killed tens of MILLIONS. They got a trial. Why? Because we're not like them. We're Americans. We roll different."

Unlawful killings without trial is NOT a way to make the world safer, it simply justifies violence. The world is not safer with bin Laden dead, it would have been safer with him facing a trial and convicted to life in prison - we roll different! this would set the example about rule of law not a mafia-style morder.

TrevorsDen

'starts'? Its being going on for years and these people need no excuses to carry on with it.

john gerard

David Blackburn,

It's not "Bin Laden's idea". It's Islam. That's not HIS idea. You can never eradicate it, only manage it as best we can. And you start doing that by recognising that the Koran is the justification for everything they do. Not economic or political reasons. That's the window dressing.

It is NOT our fault. They are simply practicing their religion as it was originally intended in the 7th century. You may scoff, and find it difficult to believe that religion can play such an important part in the so-called sophisticated 21st century - but the secular The West is the odd one out in this respect today...

Listen to the jihadists. They are telling us EVERYTHING we need to know to fight them.

Norman Dee

Coddeau, you still don't get do you ?. You are using your western standards to deal with a threat that is inconceivable in a western "christian" civilisation. Those standards are those being turned against us and helping bring about our demise. bin Laden alive would have been an excuse for every Muslim group in the world to start kidnap/ hostage schemes, Bin Laden buried would have been another Mecca, his memory is going to be a huge problem, but he had to go.

John Wilkes

For a sense of perspective try

http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html

Baron

coddeau, sir, the Nazis got a trial because, whether one likes it or not, they were hoisted to power by the unwashed, initially anyway, in a process contested by many, the fruitcakes who do us harm, the nutter Osama an example, have no legitimacy in law, nobody consented to their doing bad things, they’re vermin, as such it’s only proper they should perish without due process, and pleeeese, no ‘uman rights’ doped answer.

and another thing: you quote Michael Moore as what, the well of obese hypocrisy?

Frank P

No, Mr Blackburn! Bin Laden does not strike from beyond the grave. He is now fish food - no longer taking the pisces with his propaganda. Living members of the Taliban - Islamic jihadists - strike from Planet Earth - from the badlands of Pakistan and Afghanistan. And the enemy within, the enemy we invited in and continue to invite in in droves, are planning to do the same at every opportunity on our own patch. This they did before Bin Laden was taken out and this they will continue to do, regardless of the death of Bin Laden.

This is why our armed forces are taking casualties daily and have been for years as the death toll of allied forces rises.

Any excuse to attempt to justify such Islamist atrocities will be peddled by the jihadists to the gullible. The simple truth is that Islam is at war with the West, they are are at war with the Jews, they are at war with 'Infidels' and have been for centuries, both overtly and covertly. They explain this daily, if you take the trouble to read their propaganda. Moreover they are at war with any of their own ilk who do not adhere to their barbaric superstitions and chauvinist 'law'and submit to their power base - Islam! That is a constant. It will remain so for the foreseeable future. They are winning. And the reason they are winning is partly because of the procrastination and prevarication of not only wet Western politicians, but also because journalists like you imply that we should refrain from attacking the enemy as they might fight back! That we should assimilate their religion and customs and win them over with leeerve.

Rubbish! Any chance that arises to kill their leaders and their fellow jihadists around the world should be taken at every opportunity, ruthlessly and without let, even in the face of threats of reprisals. We are at war, Mr Blackburn - even though at times the output from Old Queen Street appears to ignore that fact. We must defend our freedoms or 'submit'. The definition of Islam is submission. The slaughter of 80 'innocent Muslims' should be indication enough to other 'innocent Muslims' that 'religious fundamentalism' is not good for them. If they don't get the message from such barbaric behaviour, then any wet proselytizing from Westerners is unlikely to make much difference. Fear is a debilitating emotion. Get a grip of your knickers and get your kit bulled up ready for action. We need to instill fear in the purveyors of this putrid creed, rather than displaying our fear of it. Dhimmitude is the path you are taking with this craven crap. You're beginning to sound like Archie Cuntsbury, the Dhimmi Druid.

AAE

I think 'spreading economic opportunity' in reality means, us giving them money to buy guns to fire at us.

Olaf Rye

If people wanted bin Laden to get a trial before his execution, then perhaps they can accompany the counter-terrorists troops and show them how to serve a warrant and take these people alive. This is not a police action--counter-terrorist forces are soldiers and they fire when they are taking fire or neutralising threats. All this criticism just smacks of puerile talk tantamount to 'shooting a criminal in the leg' to stop them, or other fantasies from television programmes.

The terrorists regard our soft power as weakness and were keen to kill people that did not support their objectives irrespective of whether bin Laden was alive or not. Most likely, many members of the al Qa'eda penumbra had no idea whether he was alive or not. The best way to deal with these people is to erode their capacity--that is to say, killing the main figures and smashing their infrastructure. We did not ever defeat enemies by throwing money at them and excusing their behaviour.

Austin Barry

"..the West and its allies in the Islamic world..."

What allies? The treacherous Islamic Dystopias to whom the West pays the Danegeld?

From what recent events, David, do you derive your sanguinity? Even the much-heralded Arab Spring has become just another play in the global Jihad.

Sorry, but as Frank P's robust post suggests, we're losing this war, losing it big time, home and abroad.

Frank P

Moreover David, the headline of this post together with this picture could have adorned any Islamic jihad website. I sincerely hope that the purpose of it was to provoke the barrage of comments that have ensued. Any other motive could easily be interpreted as treason akin to that of Lord Haw-Haw.

John Gerard

To echo Austin's support of Frank P's "robust" post, the muslims need to fear The West. They feared us for the last 500 years, and they don't anymore. They've calculated - quite correctly - that we're there for the taking - through both violent and stealth jihad. Muslims respect strength, especially in their enemies, and they despise weakness. It's a muslim shame/honour thing. Right now, we're showing nothing but weakness, which makes them despise us even more. Happy face cultural sensitivity and awareness is interpreted as exactly what it is - weakness in the face of an implaccable enemy who want to destroy us.

coddeau

Norman and Baron, I appreciate your comments, but I disagree. Rule of law are not Western standards, they are universal. If we descend into behaving just like the 'nutters' we become nutters ourselves - and there is an endless tit-for-tat. Should Timothy McVeigh have been shot unarmed on his ranch or been accorded a trial? Or any other 'nutter' in the West that go on killing sprees? To have special teams killing them off would be a bit weird no? This is not the way to go.
You seem to see a 'threat' from Islam. I disagree with this blanket demonisation of a religion. i am atheist, i do not particularly like or dislike neither Christians or Muslims, and religion is part of much what is both good and bad in the world, including in the 'Christian realm'. But in this case it is simply wrong to blame Islam for what Osama has done. He was motivated, just like most of us, by greed, power, influence, and a dose of ideological idealism to change the world from his own (in all our opinion) twisted point of view. Using violence for this was his method. That should be punished by law as all use of violence should be.
I have lived many years in the Arab world working on conflict resolution, and to my mind, people there are just like you and me, in fact in general they are more sensible tolerant and attuned to the world than a lot of self-righteous people I meet in the UK or the US. This is not thanks to or despite Islam, it is just how things are, for historical, social, economic reasons you name it, and yes, also for how their religion for the most people tell them to be generous towards strangers.
Extremists exist, but they exist in Buddhism (e.g. Sri Lanka), in Communism (e.g. Chinese repression towards minorities or democracy activists), in Christianity (Sects in various parts of the globe e.g. in the US), Judaism (extremists in Israel), and this will grate your ears: arguably even in our cherished Liberalism (neoconservative logic in which everyone is left to fight for himself in a capitalist system meaning millions are condemned to poverty and death in the developing world in order to make sure those who are privileged can stay so).

bojimbo

Don't forget : terrorists don't play by rules , we do . Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire . Also , this country is overrun with terrorists who we cannot deport because of their Human Rights .

Vulture

'And so it starts..' writes David Blackburn.

No, it 'started' some time ago. There has never been a shortage in recent times of Muslims blowing up and murdering their bretheren. So no change there then.

They didn't need the excuse of Mr Laden's recent demise to do it. And its difficult to follow the logic of blowing up Pakistan's military - since they were the chaps who were sheltering OBL all along.

Funny old world.

AAE

Frank P - what great form, even by your own standard, you're on today! I hope the young fellas at the Speccie are reading and learning.
Re: Osama's pic at the top, he does take a nice photo it has to be said - can anyone explain why the only photo in circulation and given full-page position in every paper I saw the day after 9/11 was a glamour shot of Osama that looked as though the combined skills of Cecil Beaton and Lord Snowdon had been lavished on it?
Its time we stopped doing their work for them. And I'm not the only one to notice that it's only non-Muslims who regularly take to the air to proclaim Islam a religion of peace. Time we stopped that too.

Helen

They really don't need an excuse to kill people. Dead or alive, his followers just want to murder anyone and everyone.
Scum like that have only their religious insanity to fall back on - and that dogma demands everyone should die, who isn't as insane as they are.

Perry

How comforting then, to know that we here in gb, thanks to years of tireless work by successive governments, including that of the Hero of the H2B, are safe.

mattghg

So, as revenge for Americans killing Bin Laden, Al Qaeda ... blow up a load of Pakistanis. That's logical.

porkbelly

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that the Pakistani army or ISI was behind these bombings as a way to deflect criticism for harboring Bin Laden? Stranger things have happened...

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Peter From Maidstone
May 13th, 2011 10:57am

....Has a single Muslim who supports terrorism (and there are hundreds of thousands of then here in the UK) been made to leave?
====================
On the contrary, Peter. Our crazed and possibly government and its agencies, continue to supply these evil people and their huge families with homes, financial benefits and full support. All in the name of Human Rights! Even this fine journal, "The Spectator" allows a fervant terrorist-supporter to spew her venom on many of the blogs here. Seems that humanity and tolerance are but tools in the hands of the vile.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Our crazed and possibly corrupt
(sorry word missing in above posting)

Tyranosaurus

This wasn't revenge, more business as usual, seeing as it's exactly the kind of thing they have done before.

Baron

coddeau, quoting the examples of McVeigh, serial killers is a good point, granted, except that nobody has had any doubt Osama did cause us harm, he himself admitted to it, gloated about it, others together with heaps of gathered evidence confirmed it, too, in cases you compare him to, there was a need to establish culpability, the due process had to kick in, more to the point, common sense tells you arresting Osama, bringing him to trial with only one possible outcome would have caused pain, most likely as great as that inflicted in the biggest atrocity he initiated, his swift end rather than a delayed one because of a trial was on balance the best solution, not strictly legally kosher, agreed, but pragmatic, satisfying, moral boosting. Surely even you must see that the fallout of the Twin Tower’s destruction on America, on every one of us has by far surpassed that of all the McVeighs put together. If the Austrian corporal got knocked off by an assassin in say 1942 would you have also argued it wasn’t on, he should have been captured, put on trial? Osama and his ilk are telling us they’re at war with us, well, in a war shite happens, if we were to defeat the evil Osama personified, he were still alive then yup, capture him, bring him to justice.

and as for Islam, I dunno, am not a scholar, it may be the most peaceful religion in the Universe and beyond, what one ‘s hard put not to pick up on is that it’s in the name of Allah the Islamist nutters are waging war against us, doesn’t it tell you that perhaps there may be something in that creed that’s suspect?

coddeau

Baron,
I agree with you on most points. It is a border case, there is a war going on, arguably one can somehow justify taking Bin Laden out. And yes it is moral boosting etc. And yes, going for a legal process is also risky with the attendant media frenzy and hullabaloo around it. On balance though, I think that this would have been a golden opportunity to break the circle. The US is already in bad stead in that part of the world, the fight for public opinion (and yes they are not all nutters that are blinded, they also take note of actions by the US so there IS a fight for opinions. Osama for instance was first motivated by US oil politics and presence in Saudi Arabia) would have gained from this. And it is also the morally right thing to do. It doesn't matter if he is guilty beyond doubt, everyone should be accorded due process. A legal process would also put his crimes on legal record, always handy to wave in the face of deniers and conspiracy theorists, and for teaching the future (cf. the Nazis again).
On Islam, yes, there is something in that creed that is suspect. In fact, here is something in all creeds that is suspect; and in all totalitarian ideologies that teach absolutism of one sort or the other. Unsurprisingly, this is one of the reasons I have personal difficulties with organised religion in general. My point is that if 'Christians' would have been in the same socio-economic-political situation as what the Arab world has been going through in the present times, there would have popped up similar 'extremists' although they now would wave the Bible rather than the Quran next to their Khalashnikovs. In other words, Islam does not stand out amongst human follies. To condemn it as the cause rather than the instrument of these terrorist acts is I am pretty sure, quite wrong.

Kenny

coddeau May 13th 2011 11:09am:

"As Michael Moore says : "The Nazis killed tens of MILLIONS. They got a trial..."

Those who survived the war got a trial. The likes of Kutschera and Burkl and, most notably, Heydrich did not.

coddeau

Just one more comment on the claim by you Baron and some other posts here that we are engaged in a war here and that this justifies killings like this. No, I do not think this is a war. To label this exercise a 'war on terror' was a fatal concession to the rhetoric of Al-Qaida who wished no more that being at war with the US. Because if we claim we are in a war we suddenly concede there are rival claims for the moral high-ground. War is about incompatible world views. And voila, they get a powerful weapon for recruitment, where they can intermingle their arguments about inequalities and injustices in the world with their murderous methodologies.
So, what this is about is not their world view or their 'hate of America.' Bin Laden and the Al Qaida can believe what they want. In fact, people in the US are perfectly free to 'hate' America too if they want. What this is about is heinous criminal acts of terrorism. We should therefore treat them as criminals, not as warriors. Criminals don't have a moral high ground, warriors do. And criminals are not shot, they are put on trial.

Baron

but, coddeau, my blogging friend, you yourself endorse the notion that we’re at war saying ‘war is about incompatible world views’, and so it is, theirs and ours, they believe sharia is the construct everyone ought to live under, we oppose it, albeit meekly.