Bring on the strikes

toco

It must not be forgotten that Labour's paymasters the trades unions have no interest in either this country or their largely innocent members.The militants who control the unions like Bob Crowe are dyed-in-the-wool communists who are hell bent on economic destruction.Such things just do not occur in China(more billionaires than anywhere in the world),Russia or hitherto Eastern Europe where people have grown up and recognised communism is a flawed political system.A proper fight and new legislation is most certainly called for to destroy these union vandals.

Right On

Or perhaps the government could focus on fixing the problem, making the unpopular but necessary decisions and then worrying about how they are perceived somewhere down the line.

Too much to hope for? Of course!

Rhoda Klapp

Realistic appraisal from DK. There, I said it. Of course he might have mentioned that the U-turns were at the behest of the LibDems and the BBC, who together are Her Majesty's disloyal opposition. Miliband E's only purpose now is to use up unneeded pixels and computrons on the coffee house site, fuelled by the Spectator's excitable crew.

cheche

If they all go on strike on the same day who will notice? They can also stay at home and look after their children when the teachers strike. So all in all works out well

Richard

So the people who teach our children and provide care for the elderly and disabled are a 'good enemy' to be publicly humiliated for the sake of political advantage, are they?

Perry

But does the H2B know any route other than a U-turn?

Legion

Perhaps, but on past form the PM would issue firm demands, stae his beliefs, announce proposals - and promptly then run away.

Any foolish Minister, Tory MP, or Conservative supporter (well, those too stupid to see patterns) would, once again, be left to dangle in the wind- a figure of public mockery.

GDT

Bring it on. As someone who works in the private sector to fund the golden eggs for the public sector, I welcome conflict. A good fight is exactly what is needed. Let's get both sides of the arguement out there. It will guarantee air time - put faces on the TV. Make household names of the union bosses - much like Scargill. The Labour Party will be frozen motionless, unable to provide serious comment as they will be tainted by the hand of their paymaster on their shoulder.
I guarantee the levels of sympathy for these public sector workers won't be very high. Every other sector has had a hair cut, time for the public sector to take its turn.

Lonesome Dave

Hopefully the Government has seen this coming since at least May 2010.

These vociferous malcontents love to call themselves professionals but they're all in trades' unions. Professionals don't go on strike; if they are so nunhappy the private sector is recruiting merrily. I also love the term "public sector workers"; an obvious oxymoron.

They just can't/won't/don't understand the mess we're all in; their naivete will only prolong the pain.

Man in a Shed

Frankly if the Coalition loses this one, or have some sort of "listening review type epiphany", its all over. Cameron will have become Ted Heath and the country can settle in for 10 more disastrous economic years.

Everything is at stake here - the unaffordable greed of the public sector Unions must be faced down.

DavidDP

"the government is willing to revise its NHS plans, then why not...."

Because different factors are at play in each instance which mean that there will be different outcomes?

A grown up approach to government, and ultimately a succesful one, requires a level of pragmatism. Despite the myths that have grown up around her, Thatcher knew this, even if her so-called admirers don't.

Charlie the Chump

A million public sector workers go on strike. What will the effect be?

Nothing. They are over manned and under utilised. We will see how few of them we really need.

Legislation to prevent militants ordering strikes is long overdue and should be brought forward immediately.

Pettros

I dont really understand what sort of fight the government can engage in. What exactly can they do except stick to their guns on their policies and dont give in to demands. That is not a fight, that is just what any Government with a backbone would do. Unfortunately there is on backbone in sight.

Any changes to union laws will just swing the public behind the unions and probably cause civil disorder.

Pot Head

If my employer was freezing my pay and slashing my pension, and I had the power to stand and fight I bloody well would too..Who wouldn't?

commentator

I think the ever-supercilious David DP is trying to tell us in his usual condescending way that we oiks don't understand nuance. That is the province of higher minds like his.

I'm sure that Cave-in Cameron will back down in the face of public sector pressure and Clegg demanding a listening exercise so that the Government can understand why Lib Dem-voting geography teachers must have a far better pension deal than people earning less in the private sector.

Raffles

Pothead i would quit and get a job that matched my inflated sense of self worth. The taxpayer is paying for the public sector and you may not have noticed but the finances are in a bit of a rut.

Ian Walker

Can't wait for the moment when the unions discover the deep reserves of sympathy that the public holds for public sector workers nowadays.

I took a 20% pay cut in 2009 to stay afloat, and I haven't been able to raise it since. You're moaning about a freeze?

arnoldo87

@ Pot Head

"If my employer was freezing my pay and slashing my pension, and I had the power to stand and fight I bloody well would too..Who wouldn't?"

Most of the commenters on this blog, apparently.

Fergus Pickering

well, stand and fight my loves. You have the shining example of Arthur Scargill to spur you on. Just because people teach our children or lookafter our elderly doesn't of itself confer merit on them. They work for money, like the rest of us. In the case of teachers it is pretty good money, all things considered. And bloody good pension arrangements, a lot better than anything I ever got/

You will fight (a bit) and you will lose (a lot). People don't particularly LIKE teachers, you know. They didn't like them when they were at school and that's what they remember.

As for those who care for our elderly, well, we've seen quite recently what they are like. Caring my arse.

John Edwards

This post illustrates how the Tories imagine that this is a rerun of the 1980's when mass unemployment and underlying organisational weakness of the unions could be used to defeat industrial action.

Interfering with accrued pension rights is an issue which can make even the most quiescent employee very militant indeed. The unions are actually being quite reasonable for example, the teachers have already agreed to increase contributions and raise the retirement age. Further reductions are being imposed without negotiation.

It is probably true that the government are seeking a confrontation with the unions, their political ideas were formed during an era when only the waterworkers were able to win an industrial dispute and most strikes were ineffective. They are likely to find that people like Mark Serwotka are far tougher and cleverer opponents that the likes of say Terry Duffy were in the 1980's.

Reducing pension rights in the public sector does not help private sector workers because it just lowers the bar further for all employers in terms of pension provision.

Jon Gallagher

Pothead - if the alternative to what you would fight against was bankruptcy for your employer and redundancy for you and your colleagues which would you choose. We are already taxed to the hilt and I cannot imagine you would want to pay even more tax and council tax to subsidise the pensions of public sector workers. Many employees have not had a pay rise for several years.

Richard Kerridge

Fergus Pickering,

Sadly, I think you may be right about the likely outcome, but it's the vindictiveness of comments here that takes me aback. People are supposed to base their opinions of teachers on bad memories of school (what about good memories?), and take a few abusers as typical of the whole generality of carers, are they?

Why not be indignant about poor pension provision in the private sector, instead of wanting to bring everyone down to that level? Most public sector workers are not highly paid. Their pensions will not be large. Managers on high salaries are another matter - I'd have more sympathy with you there.

Teachers, carers, people who administer services and so on - they didn't cause the crisis or profit from it, did they? Why be hostile to them, instead of the people who did - bankers and politicians (Left and Right)?

Tiberius

I couldn't agree more with GDT and Man in a Shed.

I have a mate who works for Aviva selling investment products, and his wife is a teacher. He can't believe the fuss over the reduction in public sector pensions (which includes his good lady's) compared to the carnage he has seen in the private sector.

It was a surprise to me that the NHS changes were not left until the second term, but I also understand the need for action to be swift, if it is not to be lost to procrastination of the Blair type. The NHS matter can be shrugged off as that unavoidable consequence of war, A Bridge Too Far.

But Cameron not only has to stick to his guns on public sector finance (and the welfare ceiling for that matter), but he has to win the war - because that is what this financial divide is.

michael

A days pay x how many hundreds of thousands...
as tax payers we ought to be rubbing our hands.

Pot Head

@arnoldo87 and @Jon Gallagher

That's because people on this blog have no power to stand up to their employer. Powerful people in private sector can face down their employer over cuts to pay & pension. I know people who got pay rises to compensate for the 50% tax and the Govts raid on their pension. The public sector unions are just trying to do exactly the samt through their collective strengt.

This parsimonious behavior you speak of certainly does not extend to private sector boardrooms (and I have no problem with that).

If you all want to be kowtowed by your employer, that's up to you, but why would anyone want to take a pay and pension cut if they could fight it ? Maybe they'll lose, but if was me and I had the power I'd fight too.

StrongholdBarricades

Looking on the bright side?

How many one day strikes by the public sector would we need to solve the deficit?

Chris lancashire

I am fed up with contributing my taxes to a public sector pension fund I could never dream of affording for myself. The sooner the public sector realise final salary schemes (already withdrawn from nearly all the private sector) are totally unaffordable the better. And if it takes facing down a strike - great, that will save a little more tax money.

Ed P

The strikes will bring some welcome relief for the elderly - fewer will die from neglect; also schoolchildren will not have to suffer so much green indoctrination, so winners all round.
Just like the Greeks, wailing about their loss of benefits, these groups have had more than is affordable for too long - they cannot be allowed to win this fight for the sake of the UK's economic future.

Holly ......

30 June 2011.
Lots more people pop to the shops & help spending figures.
BRING IT ON ARTICHOKES!

michael

I note with interest that on Sky the Mirror's 'you washed your hands after?'- stinky-pinky said that this would never happen.

GDT

@ PotHead,
I have power over my employer....I walk out and get a better paid job with better pension provision (in fact if anyone seriously wants to move up the career ladder and pay scale this is the only real way). The employer is left looking for some one else to fill the gap I left. There are jobs out there. People need to get of their arse and move to get them. There are too many people who believe they have some divine right for the government to put jobs on their door steps.
I don't need some fat cat unionista boss fighting my battles for me.
Most people who work in the private sector of the UK realise that, if they go on strike, companies will simply 'up sticks' and move abroad.
This country is hopelessly uncompetative with regards to attractiveness to homegrown and foreign companies to employ in the UK.

Tiberius

"Why not be indignant about poor pension provision in the private sector,..."

Richard K: many of us are, but thanks to Brown, not only has the private pension pool been hit by a 25% drop, but also there is no state money to repair the damage.

Furthermore, there is less in the kitty of those who work in the private sector to restore pension savings because they are being fleeced to pay for the public sector's pension pool, which is to date untouched.

Furious

I've worked in both the public and the private sectors. Both have good and bad workers, both have useful and useless roles and activities, both have stressful and uncertain jobs.

This brainless hate-speak against public-sector workers is disgusting. They are not malicious and many aren't even politically on the left: they are furious at blatant breach of contract.

Not just for years, not even just for decades, but for generations, public-sector workers have been consistently paid less than they would receive for work of equal skill and responsibility in the private sector. This persisted right through the good times, when the earnings of private-sector workers increased markedly. Lately, public-sector wages caught up a little, but only a little, and not enough to make up the historic back-log.

For all that time, public-sector contracts have promised "decent" pensions as compensation for the low wages, as if being able to buy slippers for yourself when you're eighty makes up for not being able to buy shoes for your toddler when you're thirty.

Final-salary schemes sound nice, but the final salary itself is often peanuts, so a pension based on that final salary is even less. Public-sector pensions are NOT gold-plated: the average pension is around £4000 per year.

Now the government -- with loud encouragement from the very same selfish folk who did well in the good times, and didn't save enough for their own pensions -- wants to break the contract and raid the pensions funds ... except in those cases where there are no funds at all, because the selfish folk refused to pressure governments to set them up, preferring to use the public services, but leave the debts to future generations.

Some people seem to regard the entire public sector as a useless drain, as if the entrepreneur making garden gnomes is "creating wealth" (he's not; he's just acquiring money, which isn't the same thing), while the underpaid health worker, wiping the backside of an incontinent dementia patient at 3 a.m., is somehow a burden on society.

If it's fair to ignore contractual obligations to public-sector workers, it's fair to ignore them in the private sector too; how would that affect business?

Selfishness is cheap; civilized society is more expensive.

GDT

Also, if you read the strategic pay review for teachers over the past number of years, you will come to realise they are paid in line with private sector salaries. Graduate teachers starting out on their career earn as much as any graduate in the private sector.
By the end of their career they earn as much as any in the private sector (as much as £50K).
So in terms of teachers they expect: -
handsome pay in line with private sector (avg. £35K for primary school teacher);
two months holiday a year, plus training days;
final salary scheme that pays 40/60 of their final salary at time of retirement.
Well, I know for a fact that there aren't many jobs in the private sector that pay that well and have such T&Cs.
Many of the people who pay for this service earn less than £24K, have no pension, and get no time off with pay.
I'm all for fairness, but the teachers are wrong on this.

michael

I note with interest that on Sky the Mirror's 'you washed your hands after?'- stinky-pinky said that this would never happen.

Richard Kerridge

It was mainly the cynicism that shocked me - the idea that the government should be pleased at the prospect of defeating these workers because of the political advantage that may follow.

No one would deny that teaching and caring are difficult and very necessary jobs, would they? The people who do them deserve better than to be regarded, opportunistically, as 'a good enemy'. You won't want to regard them as enemies when you need them. You'll want them to try to empathise with you and care about your point of view. How about giving them some of that?

Richard

All the Government has to do (at least as far as the teachers are concerned) is to point out that the previous Labour Government completely funked the issue of public sector pensions. Something like Hutton's proposals should have been implemented years ago, instead of which, employer contributions (i.e taxpayer) increased from 8.35% of salary to 14.1% of salary under Labour, whilst teachers themselves only faced an increase from 6.1% to 6.4% - thus teachers had a hidden 5.75% pay rise courtesy of the taxpayer, to fund their index linked, final salary pension scheme.

John Bracewell

The country's finances are at a very low ebb. Teachers and rail staff and others who strike will affect other workers who do create wealth for the country from getting to their jobs. Strikes reduce the wealth of the country. So, some public sector workers who have had a better deal so far during this recession than a lot of private sector workers are going to reduce the wealth of the country for their own interests. How does anyone win? The government does not want a strike because it makes the economy worse. It is like saying the government wants to make cuts, why would any politician wanting to be re-elected want to make cuts? The cuts are necessary because of the recession, the recession so far has affected private sector workers more than public sector workers but when cuts start to affect the public sector where the Unions are strongest then everyone has to be inconvenienced again for the sake of public sector workers. Nobody wants strikes but the troublesome Union leaders want to show their strength because there is a Conservative led Coalition government. If Labour were in power, they would have to make similar cuts but would avoid the public sector workers and their Unions and the rest of the country would suffer slightly more in consequence. To say the government wants a fight is nonsense.

Fergus Pickering

Lord, what a load of sanctimonious bollocks. I was a teacher myself for years. Teachers are no better or worse as a class of people then anyone else. Many (most) teachers drift into it because they can't think of anything else. Some are good at it. I was good at it. Most are passable. Some are truly terrible through a mixture of idleness and general ignorance. They are pretty well unsackable, whoever they are. And, as I said before, bloody well paid. You go abroad and see what you get.

Richard Kerridge

If the people mainly responsible for the crisis, the bankers and politicians (Cameron, Brown, Blair, Thatcher, Lawson), were to take a permanent cut in living standards proportionate to that caused for a teacher by the proposed pension cut (that is, a similar proportion of their overall income), then there would be a better case for what the government is asking now of public sector workers, who, as Fergus Pickering says, are neither better nor worse than anyone else.

spurs 86

Hard privite sector workers who actually earn the country money will not support this. They have had to take pay cuts and most will get nothing more than the basic state pension, while people in the pubic sector get pay freeze which most people in the private sector would be actually happy with. Teachers, nurses etc should take a reality check, they get jobs for life and a handsome pension pot. Even techers etc who cant do their job properly still dont get the sack and just get moved on to another school, nice work if you can get it. I know teaching is not an easy job but they have to relise they are lucky in some aspects, they get full pay when they have easter, six weeks, xmas etc. Most people could never dream of such a job.

Unions and members should remember the private sector pays for public sector wages and pensions, which they them selfs have suffered. As soon as these strikes start to effect hard working peoples lives which are already tough due to pay cuts, inflation, etc they will not be thanking the unions for making life even harder just so teachers can have a nice big pension which most the private sector workers wont get.

Noa.

"It will also allow the PM to square off against the PCS leader Mark Serwotka, who promises to be a much more combative adversary than the Labour leader".

No, Serwotka should not be in a position to equate himself to the Prime Minister, this is Francis Maude's reponsibility.

FvH

Korski is looking for support because he is regularly attacked on this forum for his flimsy mid east pieces. So FN has told him to do a piece attacking the public sector vested interest groups. An easy win. Get you back onside with the Speccie forums. Buy yourself some time so you can do a few more mid east pieces.
And it seems to have worked. Look at all the dog whistle responses above. But most folk here are missing the "politics" of the issue and @JohnEdwards is right that politically this is bad news for the govt.
Lots if those striking are crucial for the implementation of reform
The govt's record after 1 year is terrible (forests, defence, nhs, free schools. welfare cap,Libya quagmire......)
Inexperienced politics all round
And meanwhile the Tory right say and do.........nothing!!

prziloczek

Just look up Bob Crowe on Wikipedia.
The man really is a Communist.

Peter From Maidstone

Why are we allowing the unions to hold the nation to ransom? Surely it is no longer a matter of social and employment concerns but is back to the old days of union bosses seeking to play politics?

John Ball blog on this issue at Conservative Voices

Hugh

The enemy within.
Has anyone done an analysis of the Unions resources to see how long they can keep up their attack on the rest of us.
Can they not be made to pay for the childcare costs everyone else has to incur.

Richard Kerridge

Ah, 'the unions are holding the nation to ransom'. How that takes me back. I remember the phrase being trotted out regularly in the early 70s, when I was just beginning to notice such things. Are we slipping back to those lost, sweet days?

What is happening now is that people on low and ordinary incomes are being asked to accept deteriorating conditions to pay for a crisis caused by the bankers and politicians, who will not suffer anything like a proportionate drop in living standards. That's the real injustice, the real holding-to-ransom, and if Labour were not so compromised after thirteen years of uncritical following of the Thatcherite deregulation of the City that led to this mess, they would be saying something about it. Stirring up resentments between employees in the public and private sectors is a cynical tactic of diversion, as Daniel Korski more or less admits. It's the people on ordinary incomes in both sectors who are paying an unfair price.

Richard

Let's be clear about these strikes - they are strikes against the people of Britain, in defence of privilege for the producer classes employed by the state.

The legitimate Government should see them off - a start could be made against the RMT Union whose irresponsible recklessness is there for all to see - sack any Tube driver who goes on strike in defence of the indefensible! There would be a period of chaos, followed by a recognition of the new reality - it worked for Reagan against the air traffic controllers who were trying to hold their employers to ransom in the US.

Richard Kerridge

I don't believe it. 'The enemy within'. Wonderful. It'll be 'long-haired layabouts' next.

Ruby Duck

Richard Kerridge: "No one would deny that teaching and caring are difficult and very necessary jobs, would they?"

I would.

After paying for more and more 'education' over the last 30 or so years, we have ended up with a skills shortage requiring us to import millions of 'skilled' workers from outside the EU.