Don't dismiss Davies out of hand

Perry

He MUST be correct if the hand-wringing po-faced Grouniad readers (and, in due course, the BBC) are whining.

david

In our area we have a charity food shop, it employs people who would not get a job anywhere else.

When my wife shops she tells me they are so so happy while they are working, they pack her bags and they feel they have a life. The parents are so happy for them to get out of the house.

I once had a mother asking me for help as her kid comes home after 4pm and sits and sulks all evening, I arranged for a school kid to take him out 3 times a week to the youth group and he was so happy when he came home.

No the Tories seem to be in the real world, ignore the left wing labour and co.

Peter From Maidstone

There are many disabled people who are well able to work as much as able bodied people. It seems to me that though the intent is entirely reasonable there would be a need to distinguish between those who are disabled and could work perfectly happily, and want to work; and those who are not easily able to hold down a regular job and need some sort of supported or assisted placement.

It is not appropriate to remove the able-dis-abled from the protection of the minimum wage, but it would surely be positive to encourage employers to provide supported employment for those who are dis-abled-dis-abled and who are already excluded from the requirement to work.

Charles Martel

Better still, why don't you exempt EVERYONE from the minimum wage?

Maggie

Presumably if people with learning disabilities could speak for themselves they wouldn't need patronising self-appointed spokesmen from MIND speaking on their behalf and guessing what they think.

JohnOfEnfield

Remove the minimum wage. Simples!

TomTom

Knowing Philip Davies he states facts without prejudice, and it is an interesting fact that you can "occupy" someone unpaid in a cafe or limited role and not have any problem. Once you opt to pay them you run into Minimum Wage laws.

I know of people who enjoy working in a cafe serving the public, but who would not be worth hiring as they are too slow or too limited. Yet they can feel valued and part of a community. The real question is how to make that possible without pricing them out of a very competitive market in a workforce of over 500 million in the EU.

Minimum Wage Laws are circumvented all the time in sweatshops, gangs working in fields, and ethnic restaurants - the laws are not enforced, but once Philip Davies tries to debate an issue you would think they are universally observed and that is hogwash. Many illegals are working without minimum wage, but we are going to insist mentally and physically handicapped should be paid this legal Minimum which exceeds Market rates !!

RCE

When I saw the headline I thought it was the first article to tout a possible successor to our feckless PM (boy, am I looking forward to that day).

The very fact that the minimum wage is now accepted as an acceptable level of government interference in the labour market is an indication of how socialism has succeeded.

If somebody, abled or disabled, thinks it is in their interests, for whatever reason, to work for a certain amount of reimbursement, then they should be free to do so. It is no-one else's business.

Stephen Barr

I've always been wary of the minimum wage - I suspect it does at least as much damage as good. However, I have a major problem with the idea that disable people should be paid less, for doing the same job as an able-bodied person; I think that is simply immoral.

The real issue is that sadly, for the same wage, most employers will opt for an able-bodied person, for not very good - but very human - reasons. So why not incentivise the employer by removing the employers NI contribution?

Jane

I am not persuaded and find his comments abhorrent. His views do not surprise me as he wants to remove the minimum wage, lock people up forever etc etc. I find his views on most social policy distasteful. It is just as well that he does not represent main conservative views as he would make any political party non electable.

Dreadful man...

DeusExMacintosh

So, people with learning disabilities know all about the "market clearing rate" and "efficient wage hypothesis" Mr Davies? I bet. More likely it's another "I met this bloke" story.

Removing the minimum wage would simply mean that the rate of pay *I* could expect (as someone with a disability) would be permanently anchored to that of the least able of those in my 'class' rather than my actual abilities or experience as an individual. No other Spectator reader would put up with that, why should I?

The PERCEPTION that people with disabilities are "less efficient" is what needs to be addressed otherwise it's simply a return to the days when only those who could "pass" would be in work. Yes employment rates for people with disabilities were slightly higher then, but not by much.

mongoose

C Martel, 5:58pm
– quite so!

HairyNoddy

You can add Sky News to the list of hand wringing lefty media outlets. You should have seen Anna Botting savaging whoever the govt representative was over the public sector pension reforms. Is she after a job at the BBC or something? They would have been proud of her that's for sure.

JM

I am worried that non-disabled people who are considered by the DWP to be "disadvantaged" in some way e.g. unemployed for more than a certain length of time might end up being forced to take jobs paying less than the national wage or have benefits cut.

Lisa

I just followed the link to the 'recent article'. The mother of the man with autism might not 'care about the money', but the person quoted in this article who had autism himself seemed a little more concerned!

'they pack her bags and feel they have a life'? Seriously? We should challenge our prejudices, not boast about them!

Glyn Butcher

Dear Sir/Madam

I have been to mental health services since i was 11 years old in one form or another being a carer or a service user. I personaly did not find Mr Davies comments offensive he was stateing the TRUTH about service users like myself standing no chance of getting paid employment if i went to an interview and they were people there with out disabilitys. This the sad truth. I dont belive Mr davies was saying anything offensive he was just making a point that people like me what to work that bad that we would work for less money because working inits self gives us a sense of value that money cannot buy. That the sorry discrinimatory state our country is in. Thank You Mr Davies for understanding me.

Glyn Butcher

Robert Eve

Spot on Perry at 4:36.

missbpd

Spoken as someone who has no real understanding of living with a learning disability or mental health problem! The mere fact that Davies actually based his comments on discussions with people with mental health problems speaks volumes about the man's complete and utter ignorance of these issues that he transposes the 2 so readily!! People with disabilities or mental health problems face enough discrimination in the workplace as it is due to ignorance, his suggestions will only make it worse!

As someone who suffers from a mental health problem I would like to know if I had to take a job at below minimum wage would I also get living expenses cut to make up for it?? Would I be able to get my food shopping at a percentage less than those people without a mental illness/learning disability, after all if I can't expect to be paid the same as them then why should I be expeccted to pay the same the same as them for day-to-day living expenses??

Grumpy Optimist

The real answer of course would be to abolish the minimum wage. I'm sure that the Gruaniad could in time see that it was good for us all.

jonathan

Tell you what, Hoskin - build ultra-cheap housing and then disabled and able-bodied alike will have a lower household breakeven point for the setting of a self-employed profit requirement.

But that wouldn't happy the housing speculators and property-owners who form your target-market, would it? And why bother writing the cynical manure you pump out if it isn't for them?

In the US, minimum wage can be set lower because their housing market, long-run, hasn't been insane, and they don't have our ridiculous planning laws. Deal with it.

fred

if labour costs should be downwardly flexible then so should housing costs. philip davies should be looking to make all markets function well, not just those which please his industrialist friends.

McClane

missbpd: And precisely at what level of income should someone pay the full price for food and day-to-day living expenses? I earn less than my neighbour, possibly because he went to private school. I am socially disadvantaged yet am expected to pay the same prices he pays at Tesco. What I actually do is buy less than he does. Why shouldn't other people do the same?

TGF UKIP

Philip Davies, thankfully, could not be more different from the average Cameron Tory backbench jelly and he is a credit to himself and his native Yorkshire by frequently making clear his contempt for the Cameron Clique and all their nauseatingly unctuous pc nonsense.

When Dave tries to give him the Flight/Hastilow/Mercer treatment over this matter, I confidently look to both Davies and his Shipley constituence party raising a very vigorous two fingers in his direction

David Ossitt

“Sad as it is, Davies is probably right to suggest that disabled people lose out to those who aren't, wages being kept equal.”

And that is all he was saying.

This knee jerk reaction from the liberal left is so very distasteful.

The then Attorney General was investigated after she admitted to employing an illegal immigrant but kept her job even after she is fined £5000, at the time it was written in the press that the reason that she was far less than scrupulous than she should have been was because the illegal would work for less than the minimum rate.

The truth is ‘minimum wage’ comes from the same place as all women short lists, from the same socialist idea of everyone is a winner, it is all the potty politics of the likes of the mad Harriet Harman.

RCE

Some of you need to get a grip.

He did not say that disabled people should be FORCED to work for less than the minimum wage, did he?

Sheesh.

M.Pringle

Why just say the disabled?Why just us? what about any black people, what about french living here ,what about irish, what about scots,what about english with funny walks what about people with hard to read names?
If the day these idiots who are elected to parliament ever learn to show respect to all of us before they open their mouths,and in turn the media who batter the disabled and seem to have the ignorant ones who clap every snide and cruel statement made against us,the disabled, and seem to gloat over the horrendous torment this government are putting into action against all on benefits, maybe we can get to being proud again. The gap between the sick,disabled and poor who are being targeted by this sham coalition, and this countrys wealthy,and middle class earners is so enormous it will go down in history as shameful and akin to the nazi agenda in the 1930s targetting its disabled. Please don't patronise with, this man had good intentions, he sees the world only in profit and loss, and stands for only the status he enjoys and what he can get from his way of life, not for ,in his eyes' the expense of caring for those who cannot pay taxes.

TomTom

"if I had to take a job at below minimum wage would I also get living expenses cut to make up for it??"

Of course not. You'll exist on Benefit forever since there is 40% youth unemployment in Greece and Spain and they can come here to work.

Axstane

Philip Davies is very much of the far right wing of the Party - he is one of those who perpetually dissents from almost all government policies. So his thoughts should not bring along the usual cry of Nasty Party.

However, we all too often shrink from real debate of important but unpopular issues for fear of being called racists, bigots and all of the other labels the left and the wets try to pin on us. That is a pity since it prevents objective examination of facts and alternative policies and so all government initiatives bow to the Left who can easily marshall a strike, a demonstration or even a near-global frenzy.

David Ossitt

missbpd

I suspect from the tone of your post that you actually are fully aware that Philip Davies was not speaking about those in society that have your particular disorder, he was speaking about those who in less politically correct times were classed as retarded in either the physical or mental sense of the word.

When words had a true meaning honourable, proper work, could be found for the likes of these by employers such as REMPLOY and many large companies made a point of making sure that their workforce had a specific percentage of such people employed.

Please correct me if I am wrong but your nom de plume hints that you have what is now fashionably called ‘bipolar disorder’, formerly known as ‘manic depression’ an illness that is both treatable and is not now nor has it ever been a bar to living a full and creative life nor is it a bar to being educated to the highest level and gaining the kind of employment that such skills and learning bring.

Many of the world’s great thinkers, authors, poets, and artist’s etcetera were and are manic depressives; despite his protestations to the contrary Stephen Fry is not alone.

I speak from experience.

DeusExMacintosh

Some of you need to get a grip. He did not say that disabled people should be FORCED to work for less than the minimum wage, did he?

No RCE he didn't, but that's exactly what would happen. Without a minimum wage the market clearing rate for the services of people with disabillities drops to close to zero. That's WHY in the bad old days only those who could "pass" could find work (and yes the overall employment rate was slightly higher than it is now, but not by much).

And no you can't "repeat what people with learning disabilities tell you" when you've actually been speaking to people with mental health problems, Mr Davies!

Brian F Kirkham

Maybe its the silly season, Perhaps the Blue wing of the coalition are showing their true colours, or maybe mr. davies had one two many pints in the commons bar.

The Notion portrayed by this so-called Honorable member goes against the whole concept of a caring society. Yes, I am one of those on a disability benefit. I eventually got it after jumping through a series of hoops provided by the employment service and others.

The thing the chattering classes forget is this - I and others like me are qualified,
I spent years working towards a Higher technical qualification only to be told
"wait your turn"

almost six years down the line - i'm still waiting

I took on clerical work - in the main - for free, the local authority in my area were grateful for the number crunching i did for their highways dept. But then the authority started cutting (due to the costs) and i moved aside, after training another trainee in the use of the system

Then - when eventually i did get someone to take me on - the cost of adjustment in my workspace got in the way.

Yet another hoop

Would any of you wise owls like to provide a solution?

ES did - It was incapacity

And now they've turned me into a target.

Sakura No Seirei

Maggie

June 17th, 2011 5:39pm

Presumably if people with learning disabilities could speak for themselves they wouldn't need patronising self-appointed spokesmen from MIND speaking on their behalf and guessing what they think.

MIND speaks for those with mental health problems. Mencap speaks for those with learning difficulties. That you are unaware of even that simple fact tells me everything I'll ever need to know concerning the worth of your comments on this matter.

Baron

Jane @ 5.56: it pains to say it, you, people holding your views should be more than capable to figure it, one cannot enjoy the advantages capitalism confers without the pains accompanying them, one can lessen the pains not legislate against them, there are some features of the system we elected to live under without which it will falter, vanish, a free labour market, free both for those seeking jobs, those providing them is one of such features, to burden the wealth creating sector with the minimum wage severely restricts the freedom from the job providers, it cannot but lose jobs overall, it hands global competitors not burdened with it a permanent cost advantage, it removes the incentive of people on welfare to get back into employment, it allows ‘black market’ in jobs below the minimum rate to take hold, grow, it impoverishes the whole society, bars many from being a part of it, eventually, it will cripple us if not removed.

The legislation ought to be scrapped altogether, not just tweaked for those with disability, it’s a monstrosity that has no place in a society aspiring to enrich itself by gradual, continuous self improvement of its members.

Glyn Butcher, sir, you are a star, if only those without disability possessed the same moral courage, sense of duty the country wouldn’t be in the shite it is.

NorthStar

Firstly, Phillip Davies’ comments were disgraceful. He shows an embarrassing ignorance in not knowing the difference between learning disabilities and mental health problems. He’s onto something when he talks about an unfair labour market but it’s always been like that. Yes, it’s more difficult to get a job when you’re disabled, particularly if you have a learning disability. But there are organisations all over the country that help people with severe disabilities to get the right job for them. It’s called supported employment and if it’s a good job match and training support is provided to the worker and guidance to the employer then it works. Loads of hard-nosed companies would testify to that.

The whole point of a minimum wage is that it protects everyone from exploitation. Those who moan about it on here probably don’t have to worry about budgeting on that sort of income. The shame is that he missed the real issue. Most of these supported employment services are under real threat from local authority cuts (whether they’re in-house or a contracted voluntary organisation) or they have been squeezed out by the Government’s new way of commissioning welfare to work programmes. The lack of support is the real problem and is what he should have highlighted.

commentator

Axstane, you excel yourself in your capacity to talk sense (your second paragraph) mixed with utter nonsense. It is Grauniad hyperbole worthy of Polly Toynbee and Ken Livingstone on Acid to describe Philip Davies as "far right". Yes he is to the right of your icon, Cave-in Cameron.....but that isn't hard.

missbpd

McLane - I said what I did about paying less for food etc because of what Davies said about disabled people accepting lower than minimum wage. If he expects people to work for less than minimum wage then how on earth does he expect them to manage with the cost of living? I assume that even though you earn less than others it is NOT less than minimum wage! I myself earn far less than many others in society but I do earn more than minimum wage.

David Ossit - Davies made his comments after speaking to someone from Mind about mental illness, therefore his ignorant comments were misinformed in the first place as he was basing them on mental illness and NOT mentally disabled.

It appears to me that this country is going backwards and not forwards. If something like this was allowed to happen where does it end?

Vix

At what point did we stop valuing all members of our society as equals worthy of payment for their work? By offering lower than minimum pay what we are actually saying is that as a disabled person you are worth less than your non-disabled colleagues. With some relatively simple and reasonable adjustments there are plenty of jobs open to disabled people as long as their employer recognises that a diverse workforce is in fact more productive to society as a whole. Davies is a moron who has removed himself from real society. These people making decision do so for grass roots people but without the ability to empathise with their situation. I would very much like to see Davies live on minimum wage for three months and see how he feels at the end of it...

Lee

I'm 49 years old, have Asperger's syndrome and have never worked. In order to get my first job I need to be able to offer an employer something, and I think that being able to work for less than minimum wage might just do it.

I doubt that financially I'd be any worse off due to the complicated interaction between the various benefits I receive and the fees I have to pay to Social Services for my care.

Vix

We also need to be having a wider dialogue about why Access to Work will not fund disabled people with volunteering opportunities. I would argue that it is in fact lack of experience that makes some disabled people undesirable and not the fact that they have disabilites. If ATW could be used for volunteering opportunities then disabled people would be able to get their foot on the first rung of the ladder and gain the experience they need.

David I

I am autistic; I am also a competent worker and have been a productive worker for 2 companies. I am 18 years old and currently at college, achieving good A/B grades. I do not see why I should be paid less than someone else that is doing the same job as me just because I have autism, and I would hate to see people like Philip Davies give companies an excuse to do so. Mr Davies, please don’t assume that I am stupid and unproductive, and think before you open you mouth in the future. This is typical discrimination by a typical Tory party looking to keep people like me down. Disgraceful!

Lord Antebellum

I don't want to subsidise employers forever by allowing them to employ people below the minimum wage and making up the difference in benefit, which will have to be done if Davies's proposals go ahead. There is nothing right wing about his idea. It is yet another state subsidy for greedy employers and shareholders and we all know that so-called right wingers are the first to line their pockets with money from the state. Isn't that right Mr Davies? Where does your income come from? Oh yes, it is the state and what is your pension? A final salary pension. Don't see you giving that up in a hurry.Nor do I see you arguing that planning laws should be scrapped, so that we can get some affordable housing and really make this country affordable again. Oh, I forgot the marjket only applies to the poor and poor middle class.

Curlysar

Some of the comments on here are so idiotic it makes me laugh! The mere suggestion that anyone with a mental health problem or disability should consider working for less than the "average joe" is completely ridiculous for so many reasons - are you telling me those with mental health issues or disabilities are worth less, considered a lesser type of person and don't deserve to have the same level of monetary compensation?? I can't understand why anyone WOULDN'T be outraged by this. All Philip Davies has done is highlight the issue that there is still way too much discrimination & stigma out there that needs to be tackled. It should be the best person for the job, regardless of ANYTHING (gender, age, race, health) - and as someone who's suffered mental health problems for over 10 years I would wipe the floor with anyone suggesting I take a paycut for that reason, just for the sake of getting a job. There are lots of jobless people out there and not all of them are disabled or have long-term health problems, funny how nobody has mentioned they should propose working for less than minimum wage... What the hell happened to equality?? We're meant to be moving forwards people, not regressing 50 years!

PissedOFF

Do any of you have a degree which means that you have a professional qualification? A medical degree.... Idiots like Philip Davies want disabled people to work for below minimum wage. 48% of disabled are in employment that includes professionals like doctors. If you are not a neuroatypical person but still got a first class degree according to this politician you should not be paid a wage which reflects your hard work, effort, skills and knowledge.

Richard Branson as a dyslexic is an example of neuro diversity.

And for all those frothing anti-lefties. He even manages to crap on members of his own party who are neuro diverse...

JayKay

As someone working on the frontline supporting people with complex barriers into work, this debate is a polar one.

Let me just say that any debate that gets people thinking about the issues around disability and employment cannot be a bad thing; as it is all to often overlooked.

RCE

So, if the parents of a disabled person have friends with a business, and those friends do not need to employ somebody for business reasons, but will employ the disabled person at a rate below minimum wage but agreed with the parents, TO PROVIDE A VEHICLE FOR THE DISABLED PERSON TO INTERACT WITH OTHERS AND DEVELOP SOCIAL SKILLS, some of you think that this should be illegal?

If you do, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Scott

David I, I totally disagree. He is not discriminating against you. In fact he was merely trying to suggest an idea that may get more "vulnerable" people in to work. In my book that appears more caring that not. People are bound to disagree, and that is their right, but he should also be allowed to say this because it is his right of free speech. Disagree or agree, he has a right to suggest ideas without being accused of discrimination.

Fergus Pickering

I don't think, oh pissed off one, that you are properly representing what Mr Davies said. In fact you are setting up a straw man in order to demolish it. Professor Anthony Flew wrote a little book demolishing debating tricks like these. The other trick you use is SHOUTING.

TrevorsDen

I am not persuaded but do not find his comments abhorrent.
I think the problem mayu well be at wages highjer than the minimum.

A commentator on PB.com who works with disabled agreed with the principle behind the remarks.

I do not think having seen what he said and the way he said it that his remarks deserve the knee jerk response from MIND etc.

In some instances the disabled ie deaf might be better placed for a job then easily distracted 'normal' people.

Vix

We need to get away from the idea that being disabled automatically equates to vulnerable. There are lots of disabled people who, with reasonable adjustments, are perfectly qualified and capable of holding mainstream jobs and doing very well for themselves. There are some disabled people, because of the nature of their disability, require jobs that have routine and or repetivness. They exist in society and usually have quite a high staff turn over. Savvy employers would make the link for themselves and employ people suited to these roles and pay them a fair wage. It's better for their business because the turnover is low and they don't have to waste time retraining staff. It's good for disabled people because they are in paid employment.

RCE

Fergus,

If italics, or even underlining, were available I would use those.

But I can't find the words 'yes' or 'no' in your post. Funny that.

Now off to look up Flew's book on Amazon...

Anniej

Actually RCE you should be ashamed of yourself. As should many others here. I live in a house with four autistic people. The oldest has a first class honours in Philosophy, but due to his disability is unable to work. If he were, why should he work for less than the minimum wage. Working won't teach him social skills, it will not be a vehicle to a better life. It will teach him that people are impatient with disabilities they don't comprehend, that they are rude and unforgiving, that they feel they have the right to comment on the differences of others. As for the other people in the house, they already experience all sorts of discrimination from others at school. However one got eight A* for his GCSEs and the others are predicted to be the same. Because of the coping strategies that WE, not the government or public services, have put in place, they will grow up to be productive members of society better able to cope with what people like you throw at them. One intends to be a surgeon, the other a paediatrician and the youngest a vet. Don't pass judgement on things you obviously have limited experience of, folks!

Rachel

Disablism hinders the disabled, as does endorsing and encouraging that disablism by suggesting it be accepted. I can't believe people are agreeing with or defending this man. The level of disablity-hate in society is disgusting and deeply worrying.

Celia

For the more physically able "disabled" (I hate that word) there is already voluntary work that they can do to develop their skills and prove that they have the discipline required to work and which can also provide them with references for future employment.

Disabled people receiving DLA need only work for a minimum of 16 hours a week and still receive Tax Credits to top up their wages to a reasonable level plus Housing & Council Tax Benefits. There is absolutely no reason why they should work for less than minimum wage... apart from the greed of employers.

Ivan Thomas

I'm just wondering how many of the people commenting here who are in favour abolishing the minimum wage would be prepared to work for the minimum wage.

RCE

For crying out loud.

Once again: no-one is saying that disabled people should be FORCED to work for less than minimum wage. The point is that they should not be FORBIDDEN BY LAW from doing so if it suits their individual interests.

If it does not suit their individual interests, then they are free to look for another job that pays more, not work, or whatever; but it should be their choice, not yours, not mine, not the state's.

What on earth is wrong with this?

Unless you don't want people to make their own decisions...

Victoria

I know Philip Davies suggestion has already been rejected, but has he explained exactly how it would be implemented if it ever was to go ahead? If disabled people were allowed to opt out of the minimum wage, they would either a) need to be exempted from paying tax or b) the government would need to top up their wages (not sure whether this would be via tax credits or disability living allowance?) so that they would still be earning the equivalent of the minimum wage. Otherwise their living standards would drop below that of able-bodied people on the full minimum wage. Living with a disability is often more expensive anyway, so they wouldn't be able to live on less than the minimum wage unless other provisions are made, such as tax exemptions or wage top-ups.

Keith

The Tories seem bent on setting every group in society against all the others. The Tories can't get enough of suggesting wherever possible that (all) disabled and sick people are scroungers, yet they harbour expenses fraudsters in their midst for years. If Cameron does not sack Davies, then we will know Cameron believes what Davies says. And I predict that Davies will stay, and be welcome at the heart of the Nasty Party.

Hexhamgeezer

Interesting issue and debate (I have a niece affected) not least because of the entertaining comments emanating from the Thought Police contingent.

Sarah

This presupposes that a disabled person is automatically less able than a non disabled person. This is a fallacy. Given the correct job a disabled person can excel and be better than their peers.
I did a university degree and PhD and am now a university lecturer. I am, however, severely physically disabled. I am a full time electric wheelchair user and require near 24 hour care. But my mind is not affected and I can perform internationally recognised research in my field. I got my job because I was the best person for it.

But if this proposal were made law it would open the way for me to be paid less than my peers simply because I am disabled. I would have no recourse nor option to challenge it.

The same would happen for jobs usually paid at minimum wage rate. A disabled person could be offered the job at a lower rate and told it was because they were disabled and to take it or leave it. This might be regardless of their actual ability to perform the job. Their disability might not impact on it at all, they could be just as able as the next person in terms of this particular employment, yet the employer would be allowed to offer them lower pay.

This is simply wrong.

Rachel

It's not about whether people would be forced or not, it's about the fact that the idea is inherently prejudice. All kinds of people can find it difficult to get work through no fault of their own. You don't tell them to accept the discrimination and a lower rate of pay, you ask why they're being discriminated against and do something about it.

Capn Flint

Why do we have a minimum wage anyway? Even the most militant of social reformers did not consider it a useful goal to aim at, until 1909, when the Trades Boards set minimum wages in certain industries where exploitation was considered a risk. The Trades Boards (called Wages Councils after 1945)were abolished under pressure from, guess who, the Unions, as they got in the way of their attempts to steamroller collective bargaining through.

Capn Flint

Surely people are employed on the strength of performance. Even without disability, none of us has the right to be 'treated equally' by an employer. There'll always be competition between individuals seeking the same job. In a free market 'equality' is a fiction.

ToMTom

"You don't tell them to accept the discrimination and a lower rate of pay"

You obviously don't work in the private sector and have never worked in the big wide world. If you want to work you see how weak your bargaining power is, or you starve

Craig

'Even without disability, none of us has the right to be 'treated equally' by an employer.'

Correct not eveyone can be treated equally, but people do have the right to be protected from exploitation by employers, hence the minimum wage. Disabled people have the right to be protected from exploitation also.

David I

Scott, if this was passed, i would have no legal protection against exploitation for the simple reason that i am autistic. If i tried to take an employer to court who was paying me less than minimum wage, the trial would be over in a few seconds

"Mr Illingworth, I understand that you have autism, can you confirm this"

"yes"

"no further questions, you are autistic so you are not covered by law to have basic human rights to a minimum wage."

can you see why this is ridiculous? It is full on discrimination.

David I

RCE, if these people are so vulnerable, as some are, then they will be unable to negotiate and employers will take advantage of this. They may be manipulated into working for less, and no matter how productive they are, the employer will not be required to pay him the wage he or she deserves. Maybe if charities are exempt from minimum wage, and disabled people can volunteer, then they can pay them a wage without breaking the charity and use this to develop work skills/experience. However companies should not be allowed to exploit people like this and vulnerable people should be protected, not manipulated by their employers.

RCE

David I,

Why would you take that job in the first place?

RCE

David I @ 1:54,

I take it from your charities example that you agree with me, then? What about if it is a family firm? Or a friend's family firm? Or what about a school? A church? An outdoor centre?

The list of potentially viable employers is quite long before one gets to an evil capitalist multinational Israeli/American neocon arms company that pays 10p a day to vulnerable people to work 20 hour shifts in an asbestos building and have to use their teeth to pack depleted uranium into cluster bombs that look like children's toys to be sold to African despots who are supported by the Murdoch press.

Sinead Stanley

I have been exchanging e-mails with Mr Davies over the last week about this matter. I have suggested some ideas to help the issues of disabled people to gain employment which involve challenging such discrimination by employers and perhaps offering more incentives to employ disabled people. I am however, very disappointed in the responses that I have received from this MP. Not once has he answered any of my questions or commented on my suggestions, instead Mr Davies replies with personal attacks on me and on my beliefs. Not what you would expect from an MP, or would you?

James MacDonald 1

It's an old cliche, but nonetheless true, that we must judge a society by the way it treats its most vulnerable members. By proposing that disabled people should have less rights than those who are not shows Mr davies to be neither fair nor just. Judging by his comments elsewhere, he is a mirror image of the PC "police" he seeks to ridicule - and is therefore equally ridiculous. These matters require reaoned debate, not the antics of an overgrown schoolboy.