CoffeeHousers' Wall, 25 July - 31 July

Vulture

It is dispiriting, but hardly surprising, to see the glee with which the BBC/Guardian axis have thrown themselves across the Norwegian massacre.

From the detailed ethnic description of the gunman 'tall, blonde & blue-eyed' in the hours after his rampage to the calls for a clampdown on all non-Leftist opinion, the slaughter has been a heaven-sent opportunity to advance their agenda.

Tragically, this sort of deranged mass shooting is becoming increasingly common in our atomised, alienated society. The fact that the Norwegian nutjob was more efficient than most in the execution of his plan, and that he evidently had political motivations shoulkd not be an excuse for the BBC to cream its collective jeans in joy at the fact that the perp was a mad - but far from stupid - white man.

The other observation I would make is mild surprise that the Leftist ruling elite that has exchanged democracy for dictatorship should itself be surprised that one crazy worm has turned.

Purpleline

I would like to ask a question of fellow Coffee House readers today.

Is Mr Grace aka Vince 'War on Murdoch' & 'Right Wing Nutters' confirm he is a liability to the coalition and not fit for purpose. I can understand he got carried away on the Marr show, which had an underlying theme to bash anyone on the right, but to attack GOP representatives of congress elected by the good people of America & dismiss their fiscal arguments in my mind brings him into conflict as not fit & proper to be a minister in HMG. International laughing stock, what a small time back bench MP from a third party can say is completely different to what a front bench minister must say.

merlindragon

A statistical question - how much have we paid into EU funds during the coalition government, including bailouts, fines, membership fees etc?

If that money was converted into an income tax cut for the lowest bracket, what percentage would it be?

David Ossitt

Purpleline
You ask; is Vince fit for purpose.

The answer is a decided no, but then neither are any of his fellow members of the LibDems with the possible exception of Danny Alexander.

Derek

Some good news at last:

http://www.israpundit.com/archives/38172

Del

So Whats his name has just posted his meetings with NI et al. The same proportion at about 33% with NI compared with the PM. Why no release of his cantacts in the run up to his election as Labour leader. Is it possible that it was OK to suck up to NI for his own ends; no sorry, of course not, all righteous earnest stuff.
Out if interest, how many cosy meetings have our Union Barons had specifcally with NI.

James Strong

So the trial of the mass-murderer in Norway is to be in a closed court.
I am sure that the first reaction of the security forces and interior ministry was one of shock and horror.

I am equally sure that they welcome the opprunity to stifle comment and are already considering briging in 'security' legislation that will reduce the liberties of ordinary, law-abiding citizens.

N.B. Shooting people and planting bombs is ALREADY against the law. I bet that won't stop the call for new laws.

Jeremy

Purpleline:

"...the good people of America..."

When people advertise themselves as being "good", they are generally quite the opposite. The same principle holds true for shops which advertise themselves as being "fashionable"...

Jez

A terrible weekend.

All heart felt condolences to victims of that lunatic in Norway and unconnected, to the parents of Amy Whinehouse too.

Awful times.

Peter From Maidstone

Boris Johnson writes about the atrocity in Norway, and I agree with him that not too much time should be spent trying to dig around in the mind of a person who can commit such acts.

But he seems entirely wrong to suggest that Breivik is just the same as a Muslim terrorist and therefore should not be used to castigate all Christians.

In the first place it seems that he was not much of a Christian, and in the second place he can have found no justification at all for his acts in the Christian Gospel. The issue that many of us have with Islam is that the incitement to acts of violence is indeed found in the text of the Koran, and is widely interpreted as a call to violence against non-Muslims by a great many Muslim leaders.

Where are the Christian leaders (using the term Christian even in its widest sense) who are commending Breivik's actions? As far as I can see there are none and will be none.

Johnson is therefore being entirely and deliberately disingenuous when he suggests that because Christians are not contaminated by Breivik's warped views so Muslims should not be either.

Not only was Breivik not any sort of real Christian, but he did not kill people while shouting 'God is great'. On the contrary all Muslim terrorists consider themselves, and are considered by a great many Muslims, as being good Muslims, and they do commit their atrocities while dedicating them to their own god.

For the true conservative violence is no answer - as I describe at Conservative Voices

lescam

@Rhoda Klapp
July 25th, 2011 10:55am

"....editorial influence by Aidan Barclay, just as we can observe at the Telegraph."

Presumably this is why we have to suffer Mary Riddell (a mouthpiece for Labour) and her drivelish witterings every week. (I still remember her saying how she thought Gordon Brown was the best leader for this country). How can a "supposedly" Conservative paper like the Telegraph allow this?

Somehow I can't see the Guardian doing the same in reverse, politically speaking.

The Telegraph has gone down the drain lately. To get rid of the superb Simon Heffer, to replace with Jim White - pathetic. As for the daily twitterings
of Bryony Gordon; every day, for God's sake. As Verity would say, a fleafest.

Personally I would cancel my Telegraph subscription with pleasure and buy the Times, but my husband refuses, saying he finds the Times boring.

Jez

The fact's of the matter is that this man in Norway has shut down any legitimacy regarding debate on Muslim integration, the social make-up of a 21st Century European Country within the EU- or really any subject at all that the centre left feels is not wanted by them.

He has, with his murderous intent placed practically anyone who picks up a Daily Mail in the catagory of possible extreme right-wing lunatic.... maybe ironically, exactly how many in the moderate Muslim communities in Europe have felt they've been percieved since 7/7 & 9/11 i'd expect.

I think this has been a shuddering wake up call for a lot maybe.

Many will be calling for this murderer to hang (if the Norwegians advocated this)- but if he did then he would probably go feeling he was a martyr (in some twisted perverse manner). He should get 21 years for each of his victims, combined with a programme to guarantee that somewhere down the line it becomes apparent to him of the destruction, heart ache and sorrow he's brough onto his victims and their families. At this point the Norwegian's should be asked what to do with him.

There is / has been no sentence or punishment that is fitting enough for this evil scumbag.

David Ossitt

Occasionally Frank P posts here an amusing joke from his naughty niece; yesterday an old colleague sent me one that made me laugh and I thought that I might share it with you.

A SCOTTISH LOVE STORY

An elderly man lay dying in his bed.

While suffering the agonies of impending death, he suddenly smelled the aroma of his favourite scones wafting up the stairs..

He gathered his remaining strength, and lifted himself from the bed.

Leaning on the wall, he slowly made his way
out of the bedroom, and with even greater effort, gripping the railing with both hands, he crawled downstairs.

With laboured breath, he leaned against the
door-frame, gazing into the kitchen.

Were it not for death's agony, he would have thought himself already in heaven,
for there, spread out upon the kitchen table were literally hundreds of his favourite scones.

Was it heaven?

Or was it one final act of love from his
devoted Scottish wife of sixty years, seeing to it that he left this world a happy man?

Mustering one great final effort, he threw himself towards the table, landing on his knees in rumpled posture.

His aged and withered hand trembled towards a scone at the edge of the table, when it was suddenly smacked by his wife with a wooden spoon .....

‘F**k off’ she said, ‘they're for the funeral.’

Frank P

This should provoke some fisking from the more cerebral of our crew here. Suggest Nicholas has a go for starters, if he has the time and inclination:

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2011/07/25/comment-anti-immigrant-tabloids-have-question

h/t Melanie.

Also http://melaniephillips.com/a-wider-pathology

I can't access the latter for some reason at present, hope the thought police haven't seized her rig.

I'm a little distracted with domestic issues at present, but will return later.

Peter From Maidstone

Well it didn't take long for the Muslim trolls to arrive.

This man is clearly NOT a represntative of Christianity which is why there are no Christians supporting his actions. But every day that Muslims kill innocent people - and it does happen every day - there are countless Muslims who DO commend their actions, and praise them as being entirely Islamic and Allah-pleasing.

THAT is the difference.

Breivik was no Christian and was not motivated by the teachings of Christ, but Osama bin Laden certainly WAS a Muslim and was motivated by the teachings of Islam.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

David Ossitt: David, thank you for navigating me onto thsi page.

telemachus

We have Andrew Brown to thank for this

The Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik has published enough of his thoughts on the internet to make it clear that even in his saner moments his ideology was based on an atavistic horror of Muslims and a loathing of "Marxists", by which he meant anyone to the left of Genghis Khan.

Two huge conspiracy theories form the gearboxes of his writing.

The FIRST is that Islam threatens the survival of Europe through what he calls "demographic Jihad". Through a combination of uncontrolled immigration and uncontrolled breeding, the Muslims, who cannot live at peace with their neighbours, are conquering Europe.

But these ideas, however crazy, are part of a widespread paranoid ideology that links the European and American far right and even elements of mainstream conservatism in Britain.

The second is the idea that the elite have sold out to "Marxism", which controls the universities, the mainstream media, and almost all the political parties, and is bent on the destruction of western civilisation. "Europe lost the cold war as early as 1950, at the moment when we allowed Marxists/anti-nationalists to operate freely, without keeping them out of jobs where they could seize power and influence, especially teaching in schools and universities," he wrote.

telemachus

But these ideas, however crazy, are part of a widespread paranoid ideology that links the European and American far right and even elements of mainstream conservatism in Britain.

You see friends Telemachus does not just waste his time pissing in to the wind

Ahmed Khan

@Peter from Maidstone

I really don't know what planet you are on. The Norwegian Killer was a Christian Fundamentalist. This has been confirmed by all News Agencies.

He was part of the Al-Fascist group with links to UK. Please read tody's 'Daily Mail for further information.

Maybe you should should write to the relatives and friends of the Norway victims and tell them their loved ones did not die in a terrorism attack involving the Al-Quedaall and therefore to treat the deaths as nutural.

You like blowing the trumpet for Christianity but My sources tell me you are Church of England follower. I don't see a 'bastardised' version of Christinity being real christians.

The COE is a man-made nonsense and only Catholics are proper christians.

The COE founded by a King who wanted to get his 'end away' with women outside of his marriage does not constitute one of GOD's religion.

If Breivik, as you say was 'No Christian', then my bum's a carrot cake..

And if insist that the Norway massacre by terrorist was no different to 9/11 or 7/11 then you are a bigger pratt then I ever could imagine.

Frank Sutton

Ahmed Khan: "The COE is a man-made nonsense and only Catholics are proper christians."
You're right about the Anglican heresy, of course - and it's droll to consider that the King"s desire to divorce had a major role in its foundation.
By the way, are you a "proper christian", by any chance?

Frank P

Melanie's website has crashed due to excessive traffic. She has posted this email to subscribers to her blog:

"A concerned reader has sent me a post by Sunny Hundal on the Liberal Conspiracy blog. Hundal brings us what he clearly considers to be the most important news about the Norwegian atrocity. This is that, in the 'manifesto' reportedly published by the terrorist suspect Anders Behring Breivik, two of my articles are quoted.

Golly. Is Hundal suggesting that my writing provoked the mass murder of some 93 Norwegians? Doubtless with one eye on the law of libel, he piously avers:

...there is no suggestion that his actions were inspired by Melanie Phillips, nor am I making that claim.

Yet apart from a glancing reference to Jeremy Clarkson, whose remark about the flag of St George is also cited in this 'manifesto', I am the only person to whom Hundal refers to in this blog post, quoting at some length both my article and Breivik's comments on it. He therefore gives the impression that I play a major role in this supposed 'manifesto', which he describes as warning of the 'Islamic colonisation of western Europe'.

But in fact, there are only two references to me or my work in its 1500 pages. Those references are to two articles by me published in the Daily Mail, a mainstream British paper -- one on mass fatherlessness in Britain, and the other on the revelation by a former civil servant of a covert Labour government policy of mass immigration into Britain. There is no reference whatever to my writing on Islamisation.

Not only that, Breivik name-checks a vast number of mainstream writers and thinkers, including Bernard Lewis, Roger Scruton, Ibn Warraq, Mark Steyn, Theodore Dalrymple, Daniel Hannan, Diana West, Lars Hedegaard, Frank Field, Nicolas Soames, Keith Windschuttle, Edmund Burke, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, Friedrich Hayek, Winston Churchill, Mahatma Ghandi, George Orwell and many others; indeed, it's a roll call of western thinking and beyond, past and present.

So why doesn't Hundal refer to any of these people who have also been thus name-checked? Why has he singled me out in this way? It looks like yet another crude attempt to smear me by a writer who has long displayed an unhealthy obsession with my work (see here and here and here for example).

The supposed beliefs of the Norway massacre's perpetrator has got the left in general wetting itself in delirium at this apparently heaven-sent opportunity to take down those who fight for life, liberty and western civilisation against those who would destroy it. On Twitter and the net and in the liberal media, the forces of spite, malice and venom have been unleashed in a terrifying display of irrationality.

After all, we don't even know yet whether Breivik acted alone. We don't know whether this 'manifesto' was indeed written by him or indeed what it is: as Mark Steyn observes here, it reads like as weird kind of cut-and-paste job. If it is indeed the work of a psychopath, it doesn't bear examination for a single minute. And yet the words of a deranged individual are being cited by people like Hundal who are taking them entirely seriously. Since when did people ever use the ravings of a madman in public debate? As Steyn writes:

...when a Norwegian man is citing Locke and Burke as a prelude to gunning down dozens of Norwegian teenagers, he is lost in his own psychoses. Free societies can survive the occasional Breivik. If Norway responds to this as the left appears to wish, by shriveling even further the bounds of public discourse, freedom will have a tougher time.

Already, through the selective and distorted use of this document and the amplification of such malevolence through Twitter and the net, a blood-lust is building. Thus I am receiving emails such as one from Carsten T Holst-Lyngaard who says:

I congratulate you on your part in the Norway massacre;

or this from Taper Collins:

blood on your hands. hope you're happy with the effects of your anti-everyone vitriol. abhorrent.

Breivik may be one unhinged psychopath - but what is now erupting as a result of the Norway atrocity is the frenzy of a western culture that has lost its mind.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Ahmed Khan
July 25th, 2011 6:27pm

Report this comment
What a nasty little piece of work you are. Did you learn to analyse the different skeins of Christianity in Pakistan, or whatever cess hole you crawled out of? Your ass probsably is a carrot, all the tastier for the donkeys who are your imans. Correction: donkeys are nice beasts, jackals and hyenas would be better.

Peter From Maidstone

You really are a troll Ahmed.

I am not an Anglican, as a matter of fact, and have never been an Anglican. I wonder who these 'sources' are which you mysteriously and threateningly mention? They are very ignorant of the basic information about me.

Breivik is clearly not a Christian by his behaviour, and his friends have said that he did not exhibit any particular Christian interests. The fact that you think the Daily Mail is authoratative does not add any weight to your posts.

To be honest I have no interest at all in your opinion of me.

telemachus

Ahmed Khan
July 25th, 2011 6:27pm

We may find events will be the Road to Damascus for many on the British Right

David Ossitt

Jez.

Much of your post I agree with; however I must take issue with you on the gist of your first sentence. i.e.

“The fact's of the matter is that this man in Norway has shut down any legitimacy regarding debate on Muslim integration”

The words, Muslim and integration, can not be linked as you have done, Muslims do not want any form of integration, Islam; is not a creed of joining, caring and sharing, rather it has one primary purpose, that is to subjugate all others.

Take some time out to read the Koran, al-Qur'an, Quran, whatever way you would wish to spell it, I say take some time because you will find that small amounts are as much as one might be able to take.

Verity

allah's press spokesman Ahmad Khan writes as follows: "And if insist that the Norway massacre by terrorist was no different to 9/11 or 7/11 then you are a bigger pratt then I ever could imagine."

In easy words ... this massacre (mass murder) was done by a dingbat ... crazy person ... with issues. Why are you trying to bring primitive desert brigands mohommad and allah into an event in civilised Northern Europe. This man took leave of his senses. If he'd wanted to kill islamics, he could have opened fire in Luton or Bradford.

Do have any idea how utterly ridiculous you are?

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone
July 25th, 2011 1:46pm

Boris Johnson writes about the atrocity in Norway, and I agree with him ....

But I have read enough to grasp the gist – and there is something both curious and troubling in his obsessions. He goes on and on about the EUSSR and “Eurabia”. He attacks multiculturalism as a “big lie”,

Sound familiar?

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone
July 25th, 2011 7:04pm

Why is everyone who does not sign up to your Redwood Philosophy have to be designated a troll?

Kennybhoy

Troll Ahmed!

Peter from M an Anglican? That was a low blow! Peter is an Orthodox Christian. If you had actually spent any time hereabouts you would know this. But then you are a troll and only turn up when on a mission. Tell me troll? Do you and your little troll friends get together and divvy up the blog sphere before one of your campaigns?

David Ossitt

Ahmed Khan

Ahmed, some of the things that you have written in your post today, indicate that you have happily taken this sad case in Norway, to prove and confirm some theory that we Christians are as capable of committing atrocities, as those vile beings that caused 9/11 and 7/7 and the myriad ranks of the brain washed brain dead suicide bombers.

For you to compare this one man to Al-Qaeda, is quite disingenuous, he is one man in Norway, they are many and probably they are almost everywhere, Al-Qaeda kills and though they follow a plan; the killing is indiscriminate; his appears to be well planned and quite specific.

To call Peter an anti-Islam thug and an opportunist and to accuse him of holding bigoted and warped views is just wrong, anyone who has read his posts will have formed the opinion that he is a kind tolerant man, and though it is obvious that he is a practicing Christian he never seeks to pontificate his opinions and belief.

You write that this Norwegian is a member of a group, but a group that you can not name, so you have given this non-group a name (Al-Fascist) (how original) and you also write that he or their aim is to destroy Islam, poppycock.

This loon set out, on his second outing, to specifically kill a select group, all white, all Aryan and most probably all Christian, as far as we can tell his purpose was to bring attention to the fact that nobody is taking seriously the real fear the people of Europe have of the ever growing numbers of Muslims in our midst.

One of your sentences, I append it at the bottom of this, is a classic liberal/left, BBC/Guardian, let us shut down the argument, let’s shut down the debate by insinuating that those who’s opinions differ are mentally ill, you should be ashamed of yourself.

For you to offer medical advice on how to be cured of this ‘sickness’ is deplorable.

.”For anyone to suggest that there is a difference between Al-Qaeda and Al-Fascist (both of which are hell-bent on killing innocent people) raises serious questions about their mental health.”

Frank P

A follow through from James Lewis on American Thinker (I posted his earlier piece):

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/07/euro-killer_ripped_off_peaceful_euro-critic.html

More perspective.

Pete Hoskin

Nicholas: I just thought I'd try and catch you on this week's Wall, in response to the comment that you left on last week's.

Apologies that your cartoon didn't go up. I was on holiday last week, hardly connected to the Internet at all, and only returned to work today. (And, yes, my Out of Office should have read "from 15 July to 25 July"!) Not sure why it wasn't dealt with in my absence.

Anyway, are you still okay for us to use it on this Wall? I'd be delighted, and grateful, to do so.

Ahmed Khan

@David Ossitt

I don't have the time to reply to your post, point by point.

But just tell me you don't really think the attack on Norway was not planned for many weeks before being excuted?

And you don't really belive that there is a difference between 9/11, 7/7 terrorist and this fundamentalist Christian guy in Norway???

Jez

I know David.

Amhed. You actually seem to be revelling in the fact that a mass murder / terrorist outrage has been perpetrated not by Muslims this time.

That is only my opinion.

This is a Europe wide tragedy. No winners. Just moral catastrophe.

Allah in the Family - a sitcom

Ahmad Khan, pushing the "fundamental Christian" meme ... why would a fundamentalist Christian murder Christian children? Duh.

(I'm bringing the Koolaid tray round in a minute.)

Augustus

'A crazy person with issues' is one way of looking at it. Someone with an exaggerated feeling of being superior to others (superiority complex) is another:

"Continued philosophizing about the future cultural conservative political model, when we, the cultural conservatives, again seize political and military power at one point between 2025-2083

I have been thinking about my post-operational situation, in case I survive a successful mission and live to stand a multiculturalist trial. When I wake up at the hospital, after surviving the gunshot wounds inflicted on me, I realize at least for me personally, I will be waking up to a world of shit, a living nightmare. Not only will all my friends and family detest me and call me a monster; the united global multiculturalist media will have their hands full figuring out multiple ways to character assassinate, vilify and demonize. They will possibly do everything they can to distort the truth about me, KT and our true objectives, and attempt to make even revolutionary conservatives detest me. They will label me as a racist, fascist, Nazi-monster as they usually do with everyone who opposes multiculturalism/cultural Marxism. However, since I manifest their worst nightmare (systematical and organized executions of multiculturalist traitors), they will probably just give me the full propaganda rape package and propagate the following accusations: pedophile, engaged in incest activities, homosexual, psycho, ADHD, thief, non-educated, inbred, maniac, insane, monster etc. I will be labeled as the biggest (Nazi-)monster ever witnessed since WW2.

I have an extremely strong psyche (stronger than anyone I have ever known) but I am seriously contemplating that it is perhaps biologically impossible to survive the mental, perhaps coupled with physical torture, I will be facing without completely breaking down on a psychological level. I guess I will have to wait and find out.

Regardless of the above cultural Marxist propaganda; I will always know that I am perhaps the biggest champion of cultural conservatism, Europe has ever witnessed since 1950. I am one of many destroyers of cultural Marxism and as such; a hero of Europe, a savior of our people and of European Christendom – by default. A perfect example which should be copied, applauded and celebrated. The Perfect Knight I have always strived to be. A Justiciar Knight is a destroyer of multiculturalism, and as such; a destroyer of evil and a bringer of light. I will know that I did everything I could to stop and reverse the European cultural and demographical genocide and end and reverse the Islamisation of Europe.

I guess it is tempting for the many who have endured years of vilification, to just start believing the propaganda and embrace NS fully. However, I remain a staunch anti-Nazi and I blame NSDAP for the situation we are in. Hadn’t it been for the actions of the cultural right wing extremists known as the NSDAP our Western European countries would not be dominated by the cultural Marxist extremist regimes we witness today. If the NSDAP had been isolationistic instead of imperialistic(expansionist) and just deported the Jews (to a liberated and Muslim free Zion) instead of massacring them, the anti-European hate ideology known as multiculturalism would have never been institutionalized in Western Europe, because the Marxists would never have been so radicalized to begin with. The cultural conservatives would have been in a very strong and dominant situation today. Western European countries would have had cultural conservative doctrines similar to what we see in Japan and South Korea."

Occasional Ostrich

telemachus 5:55pm

Aye, and once upon a time, the mainstream consensus was that the earth was the centre of the universe.

Kennybhoy

Al-Beeb are taking seriously Breivik's statements about secret meetings of latterday Knight's Templars. They are loving it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14284763

But then this is the organization which inflicted the infamous "Bonekickers" "Army of God" episode on the viewing public back in 2008! Ye gods! Do the Beeb know more than they are letting on? lol

Wingnut NWO Space Lizards from Draco and now Moonbat Templar conspiracies! ARRGGHH!

Industrial strength brain bleach please! I think I will have to go re-read Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum".

"Foucalt's Pendulum" anyone?

Verity

None of my posts are getting put up. I wonder why.

Verity

Ahmad Khan, your posts are dripping with naiveté and gross ignorance, quite apart from your juvenile agenda. Please stop. You're giving me a tooth ache.

Herbert Thornton

Augustus (July 25th, 2011 10:55pm)

Although I'm not 100% sure of the direction that your posting is going, it certainly deserves attention.

I agree with your opening paragraph that says - A crazy person with issues' is one way of looking at it. Someone with an exaggerated feeling of being superior to others (superiority complex) is another.

But I suggest a third way of looking at it - a person with issues that are shared by at least half of his fellow countrymen and who is so frustrated at the failure of his county's Establishment to address those issues that he has tried to inspire change by the same means as have been used by frustrated populations many times in history - i.e. that of violent revolution. In France the French Revolution began with the storming of the Bastille and it was followed by the guillotining of the French Establishment - i.e. aristocrats - without regard to how any individual might have acted. It makes me wonder whether the Oslo bombing and subsequent massacre by gunfire is it's modern version.

If we set aside for a moment the shocking nature of the events in Oslo and read instead the reasons given by the perpetrator, it seems to me that virtually all of his grievances are shared by many millions of people in Europe. That, I believe is the fact that deserves everybody's attention because it should make us ask - are European Establishments going to continue to ignore those grievances - and continue to rub their populations' noses in them?

I've reached an age where I shall probably not live to see it, but it seems to me that history indicates that if the nose-rubbing continues, revolutions of some sort will inevitably follow. More and more worms are going to turn and believe that revolution - any sort of revolution - is better than what the Establishments are forcing on them.

Verity

"British right wing extremists" is the latest One Worlder meme!

Reality check ... there is no such thing as a "right wing extremist" as people on the right are for law and order and calm, reasonable government. By definition, we cannot be extremists.

How can you "extremely" ask for people to calm down and obey the law? The left pushes, as always, to impose its genetic abnormality on normal people - ever since Lenin, they just can't give up.

Be aware of this new meme.

This Norwegian, whatever his mentat state ... has opened a door for the islamic nutters and the British lefty nutters to come shrieking in - hopefully for an amusing collision.

MairT

@kennybhoy

Brilliant book.....Il Pendolo di Foucault.....I have it in the original Italian format which is far superior to the translated version. The words just dance of the page............One of my all time favourite authors..........!

Verity

Out of academic interest only, did anyone read that long stream of liquid bowel syndrome from yet another Latinate name - this one Augustus?

telemachus

But then you are a troll and only turn up when on a mission. Tell me troll? Do you and your little troll friends get together and divvy up the blog sphere before one of your campaigns?

When the right have nothing useful to say(most of the time) they abuse

The rest of the time they dream of tiny green islands

stormforce999

Ahmed Khan,

You wish it was the same as 9/11 to neutralise the debate. Secretly you are upset that he didn't kill 2,000 people and shout Jesus is great while on his spree.
Sorry but you're off your head. It's like comparing unabomber to Al Qaeda. Breivik has no support, no network, a distinct lack of the "he had it coming" support. He's a lone nutter but you already know that.

Jez

On a lighter note to the massive doom and gloom engulfing this thread...... has the Speccie got a new advertisement thingy- with the P&O cruise deals on the side?

One word; Snazeeee! :-)))

Seriously, well done. Quite good that.

stormforce999

Ahmed Khan, In his compendium, Breivik wrote he wanted to spend his last night with a bottle of 1979 Chateau Kirwan and two high class hookers. He's not Christian and he's a lone wolf. So sorry, you don't get a magic bullet to neutralise the debate about radical islam.

Hexhamgeezer

'Ahmend Khan' You are Jeremy Hardy and I claim my £5

Frank P

I hope you folks saw Jeremy Paxo get thoroughly stuffed by a rather earnest young leader of the EDL last night, who refused to be cowed in the face of arrogant condescension and reported the facts of the 'manifesto' rather than what Paxman chose to infer from it and add his own lies to boot. I don't know whether the EDL is a serious political movement or not, nor whether they have 'links' with nutters like Breivik, but one thing is certain, Paxman made an arse of himself last night before abruptly ending the interview and slinking off across the studio to try his luck with the next 'victim'. At this point I left the room, having seen enough of British TV 'journalism at its best'. Wanker!

Jez

Ok. My calming effect P&O post didn't work i see. (Anyway, can't see the bloody thing now!)

Ahmed (and others). All you're doing is insulting people. What's the point?

Debate.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Frank P
July 26th, 2011 9:37am
Good morning, Frank.
I gave up watching Heremy Paxman a while ago. This luvvie is such a bully it is painful to watch him. The Squark is as bad, so I have ceased watching Newsweek. I really watch very little TV, although I am giving "The Hour" a chance. Hardly "Mad Men", but who can compare with Don Draper?

Ahmed Khan

Further evidence that Breivik is a ‘Christian Fundamentalist’ and that there is no difference in the actions of Al-Qaeda and Al-Fascist. The below appears on Sky online and was written by Tim Marshall, foreign affairs editor (Sky News).
The 1,500-page manifesto written by Anders Behring Breivik is a blueprint for a continent-wide revolution which reflects much of the thinking of Europe's neo-Nazis.
The document - 2083 A European Declaration Of Independence - lays out a three-stage plan leading to the overthrow of Europe's liberal democracies and replacing them with a pan-European conservative authority.
In some ways, the writings are a mirror image of those of Osama bin Laden laying out views of why society is in crisis and how only "propaganda by deed" will inspire the masses to action.
Whereas bin Laden wanted Islam to triumph, Breivik supports a Christian Europe without large numbers of Muslims.
Breivik appears to have chosen the date 2083 because it will be the 200th anniversary of the death of Karl Marx..
Here are some extracts from 2083 - A European Declaration Of Independence:
:: Christianity is the ONLY cultural platform that can unite all Europeans, which will be needed in the coming period during the third expulsion of the Muslims.
:: Most people will today openly condemn us as terrorists. However, a hundred years from now we will be celebrated as pioneers, as heroes who gave their lives combatting a tyrant oppressor.
:: We will defeat the cultural Marxists/multiculturalists because they seek to wipe out everything European. We will not forgive them and we will show them no mercy...

Hexhamgeezer

RE: Frank P @ 9:37am

Agreed. Paxman looked rather sad and a bit of a spent force. The EDL guy stuck to his guns and quite easily, despite Paxmans bluster, countered every attempt to bait him with innacuracies.

The only morsel extracted was a throwaway line to the effect that the EDL could see something similar to Norway happening in '5 to 10 years'. Paxman leapt on this but couldn't get anything more than that.

This morning on '5 Live' Nicky Campbell interviewed the same bloke (forget the name) and brought the same quote up but couldn't make the charge of 'so you want this to happen do you?' stick. He also had a rep from the 'Quillam Foundation' to back him up who got the chance to make his case without interruption unlike the EDl who had to put up with Campbell and Quillam disrupting his flow.

I dont know enough about the EDL but one does get mighty suspicious of the constant cries of "Fascist Fascist Fascist!" without Campbell, Quillam, Paxman et al feeling the need to serve up evidence. Newsnight showed a clip of an EDL demo full of folk I wouldn't share a pint with but having met BBC employees I equally wouldn't want to break bread with those twats either.

As per usual the views of the informed non-left are being allied to so-called 'fascists'. I think they call it 'balance'.

Peter From Maidstone

Ahmed, you miss the point. You always miss the point. Breivik's motivation is irrelevant. Just because he considered himself acting in support of certain principles does not mean that he was at all.

The great difference between Brevik and the thousands of Muslim terrorists and their millions of supporters is that Breivik finds NO SUPPORT AT ALL from Christians anywhere, while Muslim terrorists are sustained by the support of large numbers of Muslims everywhere.

Authentic Christianity does not support the use of violence as a means of evangelism, while authentic Islam is not generally interested in evangelism in any case, and the Koran insists on the use of violence against those who refuse to submit to Islam.

Augustus

Herbert Thornton - These weren't my words, they are from Breivik's scribblings.

Augustus

Herbert Thornton - I agree with you about the grievances etc., but that can never excuse such one-sided violence, simply because normal conservatives are democrats in body and soul and never condone or call for violence. They believe in the power of
the ballot box and the wisdom of the voter.
That doesn't rule out the continued battle against the ongoing Islamization of Western nations. Freedom and safety, is what
sane people want, not bombs and guns. And that includes Wilders, the EDL, and anyone else who Breivik mentioned in his manifesto.

Hexhamgeezer

Bien Pensant from Dinner Party Land meets the Great Unwashed.

www.fivefeetoffury.com

MikeF

Needless to say the BBC website describes Breivik simply and uncritically as "a rightwing Christian extremist" - because, of course, that is how they want him to be perceived. I am still waiting for the rush of comment from the left disassociating Breivik from Christianity and defending that faith as a 'religion of peace' - as they have so often done with Islam after other atrocities in the past. I daresay I will have to wait quite a while.

Frank P

Let me pose a question or two
that should perhaps be asked:

Were Cameron and Sarkozy any less insane at attacking Gadaffi's regime than Breivik - in his attempt to 'protect' Western Civilisation against the barbaric practices of Communism in cahoots with Islamic dogma and militancy?

Are their 'actions' (with the half-hearted backing of others, including the backsliding Obama) any more likely to succeed than the 'manifesto' of a lone loon? Just askin'!

I could list some other doomed foreign adventures of recent origin, but let's not complicate the thought processes too much, lest the trolls erupt into premature ejaculation all over the Wall.

Seems the fragrant Mr Hague is less than certain that they can now succeed; is already negotiating a trimmed agenda.

At the end of the day (as they say) whose heart was in the righter place when embarking upon apparent ill-fated schemes? The methodology of each example certainly appears equally insane to me. I do know that the only one in the dock at present is the lone loon, not the combined loons of the Western 'Great and Good' and ponder to myself whether 'truth and justice' are being truly served.

But then I'm not one of those myriad pscyhiatrists/psychologists that seem to crawl out from under a stone, pick up fat fees from Sky or the Beeb when these little human eruptions occur, to pontificate about what is in the minds of nut-jobs after they have been provoked into crazy-arsed gestures and atrocities.

We live in interesting times; but perhaps not nearly as interesting as those that I augur will develop quite soon; that I probably won't be around to witness, thank goodness. God help our heirs and successors!

Augustus

Verity (July 26th 3.40am)- after your first
cup of tea, I think apologies are called for! That 'stream...' was Breivik's, not mine (wasn't it obvious?). And I was actually christened Augustus, a name I've always been rather proud of btw.

Frank P

Hexhamgeezer.

Heh, heh, heh! I have broken bread with some of the Beeboids. You have missed little, overall, but there are some nice folk who are dependent upon them from time to time for employment, but who nonetheless share our general concern about its ethos and practices as the agitprop arm of the (not so) covert left.

Frank P

AWK1 (10.21am)

Can't say I blame you, you Anne. But I've taken it upon myself to keep an eye on agitprop and report on their commissions and omissions, not mention their emissions. So if anything pops up that needs your attention, I'll let you know (as the Bishops said to ...etcetera, etcetera).

Frank P

Bill O'Reilly on top blob:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3_DEp--J8c

A measured monologue which nails it!

Frank P

Sorry - "who's heart?" - not "whose heart" - phonetic lapse! (See para 6 12.49pm)

Frank P

Wait a minute - was I right first time - Oh... fuck it, you know what I mean!"!

EC

Frank P @ 3:31pm

A 24 carat nugget there from Bill O'Reilly. Makes a refreshing change from the BS, waffle and bollocks from Marr, Essler, Paxo et al.

Verity

Stormforce 999 - Excellent!

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Frank P
July 26th, 2011 2:52pm
Frank, you put me to shame, and once I recover from an over-kill of miserable news, I will return to listening and watching current events and media programmes. If I was younger, I'd happily be the actress to your bishop!!!!!!! ;-)

Verity

Thanks, Hexamgeezer. I liked the Indian (but then I always do), but the exMuslim woman was good, too.

Tiberius

Augustus: one of Verity's many characteristics (some are good, some bad) is that she is hopelessly presumptuous.

Verity

Augustus - Genuine apology (see above) offered.

David Ossitt

Frank P

“I hope you folks saw Jeremy Paxo get thoroughly stuffed by a rather earnest young leader of the EDL last night, who refused to be cowed in the face of arrogant condescension and reported the facts of the 'manifesto' rather than what Paxman chose to infer from it and add his own lies to boot.”

Spot on Frank; as a result of reading your post, I have just watched it on BBCiPlayer.

That young man once he got into his stride did a rare filleting job on Paxman.

He Paxman was expecting a walk over, he thought that his questions and arguments would be sufficient to silence the chap from the EDL, how wrong he was and won’t the Newsnight production team be gnashing their teeth with anger and frustration that this young man not only bettered Paxman in every way but he also managed to get his message across more than once.

Augustus

Ahmed Khan - Was he a Christian fundamentalist? No he wasn't. He had no real connection to Christianity, accept perhaps to the Crusaders of the Middle Ages.
Since 2000 he was involved with a European
group from Serbia, PCCTS Knights Templar, which believes in an eternal Balkan war against the Muslims. So even then he must have believed that Islam should be confronted by war. In his manifesto 2083 he
likes to use the texts of Theodore Kacynski
better known as the university and airline
bomber (Unabomber) who engaged in a mail bombing spree that spanned 20 years and killed 3 people and injured 23 others. And also those who have published any criticism
of Islam. But it is not only bizarre, but
undemocratic logic to try to ban criticism of Islam. Muslim extremists still pose the greatest threat. Does criticism of Islam lead to unequivocal violence? There are Christians who are against abortion, and in
their cause they often use aggressive rhetoric. Are those Christians responsible for these latest atrocities? Will they no longer be allowed to express their beliefs?

If you really want eternal peace, and if criticism of Islam is banned, then the Koran and the mosques should be banned as well, because those instruments are still the greatest source of inspiration for disorder and terrorism in the world today.
Breivik's manifesto doesn't deliver any ideology whatsoever. It is neither logical, nor convincing. It's a terrorist's instruction manual. When Marxist
terrorists rampaged throughout Europe and South America in the second half of the 20th Century nobody in the Western world thought of banning Marxist literature or socialist parties, or even make the ideology accountable for those terrorist deeds. Aggressive rhetoric against capitalism and liberal democracy was seen as completely acceptable, and left-wing intellectuals and politicians debated such matters openly. Democracy lives and breathes
and functions by polemics and debate. This Norwegian terrorist acted in a manner
like his Islamic enemy, and in effect ended up in a state of self-Islamification. He acted like radical Iranians killing innocent
citizens. These sorts of dangerous extremists will use diabolical means to initiate civil wars. This Norwegian knight
listened to and was taken in by al-Qaida's
jihad for a worldwide civil war. A self-declared warrior for an anti-Jihad crusade.
But he is a devil's knight, fighting outside humanity's embrace.

Herbert Thornton

Today's National Post is full comments about what happened in Norway.

But one small sub-headline in a piece by Alex Wilner very effectively sums up what most of us - and many millions of other people in Europe feel about it -

"Anders Breivik's hideous rampage should not distract us from the even greater threat posed by militant Islamist groups."

Indeed - and in fact there can be no doubt that many people who have not previously paid much attention to the grave threat posed by militant Islamist groups are now putting their minds to it.

Verity

We'll see if this comment gets through:

Herbert Thornton - Excellent!

John Richardson

Re the 'dog poop MS Liberal media machine' attempting to pretend they honestly DO think the mass murderer is a Christian.

and further

Re the Lib establishment attempting to further cow any possible English revival by associating the EDL with murder and violence.

David Ossitt responded to
Frank P

“I hope you folks saw Jeremy Paxo get thoroughly stuffed by a rather earnest young leader of the EDL last night, who refused to be cowed in the face of arrogant condescension and reported the facts of the 'manifesto' rather than what Paxman chose to infer from it and add his own lies to boot.”

Spot on Frank; as a result of reading your post, I have just watched it on BBCiPlayer"

I'll 'third' your analysis.

All I can add is just how impressive the EDL Leader was. Unpractised, unpolished but nevertheless he left Paxman standing.
He appeared very young.

'Not well presented at all', says a friend I just saw the interview with.

Disagree.

Anyhow, in the spirit of the communal blogosphere unity and generosity...I...John Richardson.....am prepared to go on mission to answer these vitally important questions about the EDL and the future of political action and stuff.

Are they racist?

I'll join & tell you. I'm not white so that should help me find out.

Are they Christian?
Their leader, I noticed, crossed himself on Newsnight and also wished the Norweigan families well in a Christian manner.
That's less politically important to me at present, but that should be easy to establish.

Are they gonna be any good?
Well, they've just gained one potentially useful member. Stop laughing at the back.
They're leader described himself as 'working class' and demonstrated zero intellectual conceit.
I'll let you know.

Yes.
In the face of :these terrible events in Norway; ever encroaching Islam; boring and dishonest liberal news media lies; terrible interviews by the mediocre and lazy Paxman
I've decided to take action.
I've further decided to blog it before I sober up.
So it's on.
I'm gonna join up & see what's what.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Verity
July 26th, 2011 5:36pm

Report this comment

We'll see if this comment gets through:

Herbert Thornton - Excellent!
=========================
Agree. At this time of tragedy and grief, we mustn't forget the evil shadow which has crawled out of the islamic countries and fallen over Europe. We must be vigilant and not allow 'guilt' thrown at us by the marxists and 'liberals' to overlook the ever present threats of another islamic fanatic attack.

Kennybhoy

telemachus on July 26th, 2011 5:59am:

First of all Maister Troll please learn to use quotation marks and properly attribute quoted material. Common courtesy to other users.

You wrote:

"When the right have nothing useful to say(most of the time) they abuse"

Setting aside the appalling lack of self-awareness or, more likely, hypocrisy for a moment... I am some sort of right winger am I? That will be news to quite a few hereabouts! lol I have been called a socialist and now a rightist. Considering the sources, two Wingnuts and a Moonbat, I consider myself complimented! lol

If you had been paying any sort of attention to my recent posts you would know that I consider the the terms right and left wing to be descriptive of nothing important, effectively meaningless.

You continued:

"The rest of the time they dream of tiny green islands"

There are many of your ilk who would consider this to be a veiled ethnic slur and send you off on some mandatory brainwashing course. Particularly in the light of those comments of yours which were deleted from last week's Wall. Once again, is this lack of self-awareness or hypocrisy...?

Oh and my previously extended invitation to you to come and peddle your caca outside of Paradise is a standing one.

Kennybhoy

MairT July 26th, 2011 3:10am.

A work of genius. My favourite modern novel. I started re-reading it last night...

Kennybhoy

Frank P wrote:

"We live in interesting times; but perhaps not nearly as interesting as those that I augur will develop quite soon; that I probably won't be around to witness, thank goodness. God help our heirs and successors!"

Bollocks auld yin! lol

Ancient Chinese Curse:

"May you live in interesting times."

And, by way of contrast, a Christian blessing...

"May God deny you peace but grant you glory."

Miguel de Unamuno

Clear Memories

We'll see if this comment gets through:

Herbert Thornton - Excellent!
=========================
Agree. At this time of tragedy and grief, we mustn't forget the evil shadow which has crawled out of the islamic countries and fallen over Europe. We must be vigilant and not allow 'guilt' thrown at us by the marxists and 'liberals' to overlook the ever present threats of another islamic fanatic attack.

Excellent post - lets all send it and flood the site. You never know, the message might get through.

How about we all add it as an addendum to all our regular posts (whatever the subject)?

Sam Armstrong

John Richardson: Bravo! Looking forward to your insider report.

I hope there are lots of gays in the EDL: I heard there might be and if there really are any, then what a poke in the eye that'd be for the libtards.

charles hercock

In the storm over Cameron,Coulson and Murdock we have taken our eye off Cleggy

NICK CLEGG - MEETINGS SINCE BECOMING DEPUTY PM

MAY 2010:
• Simon Kelner (Editor-in-chief, The Independent and IoS - general discussion)
JUNE 2010:
• Attended News International summer party
• Attended Financial Times summer party
• Attended Spectator summer party
JULY 2010:
• Attended reception for regional broadcasters and lobby
• John Mullholland (Editor, The Observer - general discussion)
• Geordie Greig (Editor, Evening Standard - general discussion)
• Paul Dacre (Editor, Daily Mail - general discussion)
AUGUST 2010:
• James Harding, Rebekah Brooks, James Murdoch (News International - general discussion)
• John Witherow (Editor, Sunday Times - general discussion)
• Simon Kelner (general discussion)
SEPTEMBER 2010:
• Alan Rusbridger (Editor, The Guardian - general discussion)
• Evgeny Lebedev (Chairman, Evening Standard and Independent - Lib Dem conference)
• Peter Wright (Editor, Mail on Sunday - Lib Dem conference)
OCTOBER 2010:
• Tony Gallagher and Murdoch Maclennan (Telegraph Media Group - general discussion)
• Simon Kelner and Evgeny Lebedev (social engagement)
NOVEMBER 2010:
• Attended Mirror Pride of Britain awards
• Attended Spectator Parliamentarian of the Year awards
• Evgeny Lebedev (general discussion)
DECEMBER 2010:
• Attended National Broadcasters and Lobby reception
FEBRUARY 2011:
• Geordie Greig (general discussion)
• Rebekah Brooks and Dominic Mohan (general discussion)
APRIL 2011:
• Tony Gallagher and Murdoch Maclennan (general discussion)
• John Mullin (general discussion)
• James Harding (general discussion)
• John Mullholland (Editor, The Observer - general discussion)
MAY 2011:
• Lionel Barber (Editor, Financial Times - general discussion)
• Met editors of Trinity Mirror's regional daily newspapers
JUNE 2011:
• Evgeny Lebedev (general discussion)

NOW JUST WHY IS HE COSYING UP TO EVGENY LEBEDEV?

He looked so miserable next to the PM at Murdoch questions

Is promoting the Russian bear to snap the Fox

St Dansiment

It seems there is rather a rush to get at the Paxman/Lennon exchange. The old cables must be running red. Right now the BBC informs that "This content does not appear to be working - Try again later"

A caption below the jammed stillframe of Lennon, states that "The leader of the English Defence League, Stephen Lennon, defends claims that Anders Breivik had links to the organisation."

Surely he might be denying or refuting such claims? He wouldn't defend them would he?

Sam Armstrong

Herbert Thornton at 5.21pm

I'm glad you brought that up. We naturally deplore the actions of the Norwegian psychopath. Question: was not the cowardice of the West truly put into action by the devastating effects of 9/11? I mean there'd been Islamic trouble since the late 70s and before, but after 9/11 there was a definite and deliberate acceleration of the capitulation by the West, as we all know.

Is it not possible that the events in Norway might trigger a reversal of the 9/11 effect: that the ordinary people of Europe, although disgusted by the events that took place, might draw the conclusion that the atrocity *wouldn't* have taken place if the years following 9/11 hadn't been spent trying to persecute Christianity and the European nation state, in favour of appeasing Islam?

A very short distance away, Finland is busy trying to disentangle itself from the EUSSR and trying to promote 'Finnishness'. Five hundred miles south Geert Wilders won his farcical trial in The Hague, whilst down in the Alps Elizabeth Sabaditch Woolf is taking on the Austrian libtards, and in our own country the EDL is now gaining so much power that the BBC requires them as guests on its prime news show. France and Ireland voted NO to Lisbon and Switzerland stopped the construction of minarets. France banned the face veil and Germany has slammed multikulti. There's talk of Greece leaving the zone. Bit by bit the EUSSR-Islamo-Frankfurt-Gramsci-etc machine is coming apart, bolt by bolt. As Frank P says, it'll be bloody yet, but we are starting to gain confidence.

A movement is gaining momentum, and although we don't want the Norwegian madman as our leader or in any way involved in our movement, we nonetheless *have* a movement and daily it's gaining strength.

Nick Cohen's latest blog is in my view an example of how the left is starting to realise it's on the wrong side of history and is starting to panic. As is Sunni whatsisname saying that Mel P might have helped trigger the events on Saturday. Desperate lies told by people who realise they have made a catastrophic error of judgement in supporting a movement that is bringing down the greatest civilisation ever known.

PS: Did any Newsnight viewers see Mandelson's creepy performance last evening, with that Geordie guy they always wheel on sucking up to him. Truly vomit inducing.

Verity

Can we have a moratorium on people posting, with a revelatory air, "May you live in interesting times", please?

Peter From Maidstone

I've added a comment facility to Conservative Voices, so that comments can be added anonymously if people wish (Verity?) Let me know if anyone has a problem.

I will remove troll posts but allow interesting dissenting posts.

I've just posted there..

Norway murderer was no conservative

Verity

P from M - I'll have a go this evening, Peter.

Kennybhoy

Fearty Verity on July 26th, 2011 9:31pm writes:

"Can we have a moratorium on people posting, with a revelatory air, "May you live in interesting times", please?"

The "people" in question being...?

Myself? Frank P?

Clang! lol

Kennybhoy

St Dansiment on July 26th, 2011 9:06pm

Have you tried iplayer man?

Herbert Thornton

Sam Armstrong

I heartily endorse what you wrote - but I would like to add that your saying that there had been Islamic trouble since the late 70s and before somewhat understates it. The world has been subject to the constant pressures of Islamic conquest ever since the Koran was assembled and distributed.

Europe has until modern times had the good fortune to be able to resist and repel that pressure - as was demonstrated by the expulsion of the Moors from Spain and the repulse of Muslim armies when they reached Vienna. After that there was, so far as Europe was concerned a lull.

The most far-sighted British politician to grasp the fact that it was only a lull was Winston Churchill. Churchill delivered a speech about it more than 100 years ago in 1889. In it, he said of Islam - "No stronger retrograde force exists in the world". But one part of his speech was so prophetically accurate that it send chills down the spine -

"Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa , raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome ."

The full text of the speech is here - http://kerrycollison.blogspot.com/2010/05/churchills-speech-1899-on-islam.html

Churchill was often attacked well before World War 2 as a 'warmonger' and the forerunners of political correctness and their modern versions continued to smear him like that ever since. Consequently the political classes and the Establishment have always treated his wise and sadly realistic warning as religious bigotry.

Then of course, after WW2, the Establishment turned on Enoch Powell because of his opposition to immigration. My own opinion is that while Powell was largely right that immigration ought to be severely restricted, he was mistaken to allow himself to be perceived as opposing only immigrants from the Caribbean, and especially mistaken not to recognise that Jamaica is largely English speaking and Christian. He would have gone down in history with more credit if he had identified himself with Churchill's warning and concentrated on the foolishness of allowing Islamic immigration from overseas when nothing was done about it on the politically correct grounds that the immigrants were from the "Commonwealth" - which in effect meant immigration of Muslims from Pakistan. He would still have been abused as a bigot, but to the politically correct, anyone who disagrees with them is a bigot which is a term of general abuse as useful as any other.

Like you, I am encouraged to hope that there will be widespread revulsion in Europe at the effects of the growing presence of Islam. Present mainstream politicians - with honourable exceptions like Geert Wilders in the Netherlands - are behaving like Emperor Nero - fiddling while Britain and Europe are starting to burn.

Britain needs to turn to politicians who have the same grasp of Islam's effects as did Winston Churchill and whose determination to resist Islam is as resolute as was Churchill's determination to resist Hitler and the Nazis.

Something needs to be done to stem the tide and then reverse it - otherwise Churchill's worst fears will inevitably befall the whole of Europe. We have to take care that Churchill's mantle will fall on worthy successors.

Frank P

Melanie reacts to the reaction to the Norway atrocity:

http://melaniephillips.com/fanaticism-mass-murder-and-the-left

As always, an immaculate conception!

Maddy1

The reporting of the BBC and especially that of the World Service on these murders is pure wickedness. I was inadvertently a witness to one of the Norwegian Youth Labour Fests a few years back. They wheeled out, a legless what the BBC calls "a South Asian" out every morning to enjoy the summer air. Fags and booze are haram to the young here , but this guest was allowed to induldge. I did not ask why he was brought here to look out over sunny Oslo on his solitary morning vigils with fags for company! I wondered under what circumstances his legs were blown off. These well meaning people seemed even then tinged with the Jellyby and Pardiggle to me. The younger able bodied South Asians and Palestinians tripped through the place, under the assumption that these neatly dressed well adjusted nordic teenagers fornicated at the drop of a hat.
The young girls seemed to find it difficult to extract themselves from the attentions of these young men without causing offence.

daniel maris

As far as I know Melanie Phillips has never offered an honest appraisal of Islam and maintains the official Israeli line (as in all things) that there is a genuine "private" devotional Islam that makes no bold political claims and can be distinguished from what she always calls Islamism.

Democrats have to start with the clear-eyed understanding that Islam as traditionally taught by nearly all its clerics is a radically totalitarian movement with global pretensions. I believe our leaders understand that perfectly but feel obliged for reasons of state and from a belief in the efficacy of diplomacy to adopt various stratagems that belie that understanding.

Democrats oppose all forms of totalitarianism and racism. There are far too many people here who are either sympathetic to Nazism or too understanding towards it. The formulaic denunciations of Breveik are as unconvincing as those of the Mullahs who regret the loss of "innocent lives" in relation to Islamic terrorist attacks. Hardly surprising when Breveik talks about "cultural marxism" and all the other tropes so beloved of many commentators here. The comments comparing this convention of democrats with a Hitler Youth camp were truly disgusting.

For me the issue is clearly, as it was in the 30s, a battle between democracy and more than one form of totalitarianism. There is a lot of confusion as there was then, but the issues are in reality pretty simple. Either you believe in representative democracy, regular elections with the ability to change government and a free society - or you don't.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Frank P:
Good morning, thanks for the link. Good analysis.
I made a boo-boo recommending BBC TV's "The Hour". Fell asleep in Part 2 last night - boring! ;=(

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

daniel maris
July 27th, 2011 8:27am

Report this comment

As far as I know Melanie Phillips has never offered an honest appraisal of Islam and maintains the official Israeli line (as in all things) that there is a genuine "private" devotional Islam that makes no bold political claims and can be distinguished from what she always calls Islamism.

=====================
Daniel, as is the norm here in Britain, Melanie can go so far, but only so far criticising the 'holy' heap of snakes called islam. She does her very best under the restrictions inposed upon her, but to reveal the true evil face of islam, especially in the way they exploit the Israeli conflict, she would not only be out of a job, but blackballed by the so-called intellectuals who disgrace our media.

MikeF

Daniel Maris - no-one on this site is 'sympathetic to Nazism', though one contributor has unashamedly offered apologetics for the racist mass murder of Poles by the regime of Josef Stalin. As for 'cultural Marxism' it seems to me to be a very accurate description of what is increasingly a pervasive attitude on the left. It essentially means the transfer to the realm of personal relations of a style of thinking previously confined to macroscopic analysis of economic issues. Its hallmarks are the belief by its proponents that their opinions are the result of some sort of objectively superior and incisive analytical method and are therefore both morally and intellectually superior to those of anyone who thinks differently. Where that thinking concerns matters of race then anyone who thinks differently is, of necessity, racist. In consequence they believe they have the right to impose their beliefs on others through force of law. It is a stew of intolerance and self-referentialism dripping with malice, conceit and self-righteousness. Its ultimate purpose, though, is simply to reinforce the self-estimation of its proponents. It is not about anything but itself. The fact that Breivik cited the term does not create any sort of link between him and any other person who regards it as having some validity.

Andy Carpark

AWK, What were you thinking of, tuning into 'The Hour'? I zapped episode 1 after two minutes, when two hack actors descended to a studio containing a camera bearing the insignia 'BBC'. What happened in episode 2? Did the doughty speak-truth-to-power State broadcaster make a fearless documentary about the BBC? And if so, was there a cameo appearance by Robert Peston 'as himself'? Oh, wait a minute; you fell asleep.

EC

Verity, July 26th, 2011 9:31pm

Interesting times would make a refreshing change. News and only news would make a refreshing change! The newscasters of yesteryear used to read the news. They have been replaced by 'news presenters' presenting something altered. Why do we need endless BBC TV and radio 'journalists' interviewing each other in order to interpret the news for us? They inform of little other than what and how the BBC think we should be thinking!

The printed MSM aren't any better. Acres of newsprint containing endless, mostly worthless, opinions of not much and tittle-tattle. Thinking back to last weekend - how much more would we have been uninformed if ALL of the press had took the weekend off? Not much!

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Andy Carpark
July 27th, 2011 11:58am
Andy, I foolishly watched edisode 1 because as a girl Lime Grove was by the swimming pools where we were forced to go. Lots of famous faces could be seen as we struggled along in a crocodile bearing rolled up soggy towels and often home-made knitted bathing suits. Yes, Andy. I fell asleep, it was truly 'orrible!

EC

Frank P,

What are the odds of Cressida (leading beyond) Dick becoming the new boss of the Met? Do you think it is worth a punt? A tenner on the Dick, or rather the nose?

telemachus

Herbert Thornton
July 26th, 2011 5:21pm

Today's National Post is full comments about what happened in Norway....

"Anders Breivik's hideous rampage should not distract us from the even greater threat posed by militant Islamist groups."

It is incomprehensible to me that someone can write something like this at a time like this

Frank P

EC

So much pervasive politics in the decision, it's not possible to call at present. Jennie Jones has already indicated she wants a woman as Commissioner (she's the mouthy one on the MPA). Sarah Thornton is the whisper. I wouldn't risk a dud old thrup'ney bit meself. Would have thought that the Stockwell fiasco would have precluded the Dick woman; I guess she was promoted after it merely to cover Ian Blair's ass, but in the current crazy climate - who knows? Whoever it is will have been through the Bramshill Brainwasher, so it will be business as usual. And with the CPS calling the shots what difference does it make?

Bob Mark was the only Commissioner that ever made a difference and even he only half did the job before he clocked out. And strangely enough, it was he who lifted the embargo on cops talking directly to the media, rather than through Press Bureau; the seed of the recent mutual masturbation fiasco between top cops and the hackery.

Sarah Thornton has some domestic baggage, but perhaps this link might give an inkling - or maybe not:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/naafi-bar/166348-new-met-commissioner.html

I doubt there will be high ranking appearances in the dock from Operation Weeting; but the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater - again - that's a racing certainty.

Andy Carpark

EC, For many years I stalked the internet banging a gong and proclaiming Matthew d'Ancona to be the Antichrist but eventually gave up having either been called for a troll or roundly ignored.

Instead, therefore, of repeating the reasons why professor of glorified tittle-tattle, Matthew d'Ancona is the worst journalist writing in the English language, I shall simply exhibit his latest abomination in the Sunday Telegraph.

*ttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8656953/Phone-hacking-The-hiring-of-Andy-Coulson-exposes-David-Camerons-essential-decency.html

Paraphrase: The Norwegian massacre shows the utter triviality of the phone hacking scandal. Even so, the hiring of Andy Coulson showed what a thoroughly decent, warm-hearted Prime Minister we have in Boneless Dave.

Frank P

Andy Car Park

And they pay Wancona for such rubbish!

Where's Nicholas? His cartoon didn't appear, despite Pete Hoskin's return to the fray with an offer to tardily feature it.

Derek

As an antidote to coarse and uninformed comments here on the death of Amy Whitehouse, people might want to read Neil McCormick's article in the DT today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopfeatures/8665516/Amy-Winehouse-the-final-interview.html

John Richardson

“Bit by bit the EUSSR-Islamo-Frankfurt-Gramsci-etc machine is coming apart, bolt by bolt. As Frank P says, it'll be bloody yet, but we are starting to gain confidence.
A movement is gaining momentum,……”
Sam Armstrong to Herbert Thornton yesterday; who “Heartily endorsed…” Sam’s post.

“Bit by bit the EUSSR-Islamo-Frankfurt-Gramsci-etc machine is coming apart…”
I’d say ‘yes’ but that was always going to happen fairly quickly. The international political powers that first decided upon mass Muslim immigration; would know that the initial ‘multi-cultural’ model would not last long.
I think you are mistaken if you imagine any route ahead means a return to ‘our’ country and an essential ‘pre-Maastricht’ Britain.
Instead, I regard the ‘hollowing out’ of the multi-cultural model (as a consequence of the reality that Muslims will never want to integrate) as an interim stage. The logical next social position would be a ‘balkanisation’ of the UK. The abandoning of multiculturalism by the State might only mean the formalisation of a separate Muslim social/political dispensation. This is more likely than any real State recognition of ‘English’ priorities/traditions/Laws etc.

As you say…
“…[bolt by bolt.] As Frank P says, it'll be bloody yet,…”
Totally disagree. I know see a very long period of social struggle with no individual or political focus at all. No organized violence.
I once imagined a threshold existed, beyond which, ‘the People’ might directly resist or oppose social obliteration and/or political betrayal/lies or mass immigration or releasing sadistic killers or stealing our money or…..
These days I think we are at present so atomized as a Nation that serious common action for our self preservation is unthinkable. Unfortunately.
“…..but we are starting to gain confidence.”
Yes.
Though we should be honest; the secular-progressive-multi/cult-anti-family-Human Rights establishment has total control of the Media, Courts, Police and political parties.
“A movement is gaining momentum,….”
We’ll see. I struggle to see it. I actually will see what the EDF is about but they will never rule England.
Regards.

Ahmed Khan

I recently went on a weekend break to Cornwall and was absolutely shocked and horrified to learn that the nearest Mosque was 6 miles away and the nearest shop stocking Hallah meat was 4 miles.

If any coffee houser's find themselves more that 2 miles away from either, please let me know and I'll get that sorted out straight away!

Frank P

Ahmed Khan aka Ken Livingstone.

Please stop being silly - there's some serious shit coming down.

Frank P

Herbert Meyer whistling in the dark to the Singer's song:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/the_astonishing_world_to_come.html

Well ...

Ahmed Khan

@ Frank P

I am not being silly as I am sure you would not want a Mosque in your back garden....

EC

Armed Ken,

"Hallah meat?" Use your loaf!

Prince Charles actually wanted to build a mosque for Cornwall's 33 fervent faithful but the peasants revolted. No doubt the Truro Taliban subsequently got permission to use the local football stadium for their, ahem, services.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article537568.ece

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/62882-muslim-page-3-pin-ups-cause-row

telemachus

I suppose I should be glad to see the revival of influence of the great Russian people. They at least have tolerance and respect of their religious minorities and do not have the hang-ups of the so called (christian ) right

Verity

Mike F - "though one contributor has unashamedly offered apologetics for the racist mass murder of Poles by the regime of Josef Stalin."

Let's stick to the English language, shall we? The Russians and the Poles are the same race: Caucasian.

Intellectual laziness muddies the waters. This is the kind of sloppiness that allows the lefties, including the current cabinet, to describe anything they want to slur as "racist" rather than thinking up an argument.

Has anyone yet described the Norwegian mass murderer as "racist" for the mass slaughter of his own people?

Every time someone uses the word "racist" wrongly/lazily, the usage embeds more firmly a weapon of the left.

I won't comment on your use of the word "apologetics" for "apologies".

Kennybhoy

Frank P on July 27th, 2011 7:50am on the fragrant Miss Phillip's latest.

Och this is splendid stuff! Compare and contrast with the, at best, insipid fare on offer hereabouts.

Her opening eviceration of what in my neck of the woods is known as "whataboutery" is spot on!

Miss Phillips writes:

"This shouldn’t need saying, but it does: there can be no excuse, justification or rationale whatsoever for the atrocity perpetrated by Anders Behring Breivik. The reason it unfortunately needs saying is that I have been reading too many weaselly equivocations about this, along the lines of ‘Yes, it was indeed a most terrible atrocity and one’s heart bleeds for those poor victims; but Norway’s politics towards Israel do stink/Norway’s Labour Party stinks/Quisling’s country, say no more/the Islamisation of Europe stinks/it was only a matter of time before someone was provoked by the railroading of public opinion into doing something like this’.

No, no, no! Any variety of such ‘yes-buttery’ inescapably makes some kind of excuse for the atrocity, however dressed up it may be in suitably pious expressions of horror. There is never any justification for mass murder. None. Any concerns about the Norwegian ambassador to Israel’s disgusting comments or European Islamisation or anything else are a totally separate matter and must be addressed through the democratic process of argument, persuasion and public debate."

Anyone hereabouts recognize themselves in these paragraphs...?

Verity

There are too many serious issues about Prince Charles for him to ascend to the throne. His allegiance to mass immigration/invasion of a belief system which is totally alien to the belief system on which Britain was founded causes concern for the throne.

If Charles ascends, he will be the last monarch of Britain because the people will revolt against him and the left would be only too ready to oblige.

Kennybhoy

Further to my last post...

Having praised Miss Phillips' article, let me just say that I wish that something of the insight displayed in the quoted opening paragraphs above had informed her previous analysis on the NI/NC scandal.

Alas "Yes-buttery"/"whataboutery" is a constant temptation to us all...

Kennybhoy

Derek on July 27th, 2011 2:46pm

Thanks for the link man. Lovely article...

David Ossitt

John Richardson.

“The abandoning of multiculturalism by the State might only mean the formalisation of a separate Muslim social/political dispensation. This is more likely than any real State recognition of ‘English’ priorities/traditions/Laws etc.”

If only we could give them Northern Ireland; move them all lock stock and barrel and then to ensure that they lived in very interesting times, we could hand the north to the south.

Job done.

Verity

islam is a tool of the left. It's currently a symbiotic relationship.

Once it comes to a contest of wills, we will see some startled and impotent lefties who had thought they were using islam to control the indigenes and advance the cause of the Left (whatever that might be; I've never figured out what it is these people want).

Anyway, they are in for some surprises some of which, I predict, will be quite cheering.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Foreign Secretary William Hague has said a TV appearance by the Lockerbie bomber will intensify the "anger and outrage" at his release from jail.
William Hague is really a busy little man, one way or the other. Now it seems the UK is to expel all Libyan diplomats and invite the rebel National Transitional Council to take their place as the "sole governmental authority". This of course, never happened at the time of Lockerbie, and one wonders whether oil has anything to do with this decision.
Gaddafi is loathed by all civilised people, but is it democratic for Britain to decide who are the legitimate rulers of Libya? Again, could oil be a vital issue here? Also, it will be ironic if these new authorities turn out to be islamic fanatics. Didn't Britain in one of its busy body, world policeman moves support the ascent of the maniac Mugabe?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

David Ossitt
July 27th, 2011 5:55pm
David, I like it! One wee prolem: would they have to replace the bowler hats on Orange Day with other headgear?

Herbert Thornton

daniel maris (July 27th, 2011 8:27am) -

You say that for you "the issue is clearly, as it was in the 30s, a battle between democracy and more than one form of totalitarianism. There is a lot of confusion as there was then, but the issues are in reality pretty simple. Either you believe in representative democracy, regular elections with the ability to change government and a free society - or you don't."

With respect, I think the issues are not that simple at all. I think it is a mistake to think in terms of democracy versus things like Marxism, Islam, and so on. Marxism and Islam are ideologies. Democracy on the other hand has more of the character of a system that people can use in order to make choices between ideologies.

At the same time, real democracy (it seems to me) can only survive so long as the bulk of a population that practises it firmly believes in virtues such as natural justice, honesty and truthfulness - and is constantly vigilant to ensure that the vices of corruption and lying are rigorously excluded from all branches of government. Otherwise democracy deteriorates and becomes a sham.

Your formula - "representative democracy, regular elections with the ability to change government and a free society" is, I believe inadequate. It is clear that democracy has sadly deteriorated and has evolved into a sham. It has become a form of totalitarianism where power is actually held by a ruling class - in Britain's case a ruling class that consists (broadly speaking) of what is known as the Establishment.

Totalitarianism of course comes in different forms - from outright insane evil tyranny to benign despotism. I should have thought that it could be argued that when democracy has become as debased and rotten as it has in Britain and much of Europe, totalitarianism consisting of benign despotism such as that of Dr Salazar in Portugal, or relatively benign one party rule as in China - so long as they remain benign may be better. Remember that even General Franco deliberately returned Spain to democracy. We should understand too that one ideology that is fundamentally opposed to rule by genuine democracy is Islam.

You mention Breivik and his "formulaic denunciations". In doing so you seem to be arguing that anything the Breivik says must be evil - because it was Breivik who said it. That reasoning is addressed by George Jonas in today's National Post. Here's the last paragraph of his article -

"Some lament that Breivik is a right-wing nut case; others rub their hands in glee. Both are wasting their time. Misdeeds don't invalidate ideas any more than ideas validate misdeeds. When people who are wrong try to discredit people who are right on the basis of something the lunatic Norwegian said in the days when he was only shooting off his mouth, remember that 2x2=4 even if the Unibomber says so.

Kennybhoy

Verity on July 27th, 2011 5:08pm

"Let's stick to the English language, shall we?"

What was it that Peter from Maidstone said about your grasp of the English language? lol

telemachus

Sorry folks my 5.06 post only makes sense with the post a few mins before which "went"

telemachus

Ahmed Khan
July 27th, 2011 3:11pm

If any coffee houser's find themselves more that 2 miles away from either, please let me know and I'll get that sorted out straight away!

I can get Hallal meat but the nearest Mosque is 7 miles

We little Englanders have a lot to learn within our multifaith society

telemachus

Above if posted is a contracted version of my againwent reply

David Ossitt

Ahmed Khan

@ Frank P

“I am not being silly as I am sure you would not want a Mosque in your back garden....”

I do not now; nor would I ever be so presumptuous as to think that I knew Frank P’s opinions, however I will hazard a guess by stating that he like the majority does not want a Mosque, in his back yard, his street, his town, his county, nor any in our country.

And yes Ahmed you are being intentionally silly.

David Ossitt

Herbert Thornton
July 27th, 2011 6:19pm

Well said Herbert.

Peter From Maidstone

Should people be able to participate in the political arena if they are unwilling to support British values, rights, freedoms and democracy?

I don't think so. Indeed I don't think that many politicians have been faithful to their oath of allegiance. What are the limits of British tolerance? It seems to me that we should not be tolerant of any person or group which will not support British values, freedoms, rights and democracy but wishes to undermine, subvert and destroy them.

The limits of tolerance

David Ossitt

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

“David, I like it! One wee prolem: would they have to replace the bowler hats on Orange Day with other headgear?”

I suspect not; I chose Northern Ireland in particular because it has a long history of religious intolerance, and so has the South, I would go so far as to say that they actually enjoy conflict, the results of my suggestion would be highly entertaining.

RocketDog

RE: Norwegian psychopaths. What Melanie Phillips says. Excellent analysis

telemachus

unashamedly offered apologetics for the racist mass murder of Poles by the regime of Josef Stalin.

This was war mikey and anyway much of the approbium attached to Katyn is due to Goebbels propaganda trying to drive a wedge between Russia and the western allies including Poles in exile.

telemachus

How can we believe anything anyone says anymore?

News Corporation and News International provided almost a quarter of all hospitality to the government’s senior political staff in its first seven months (the register of special advisers’ gifts and hospitality)

We try to trust the BBC but

BBC business editor Robert Peston is close friends with senior News Corp executive Will Lewis.

Thank God for the Guardian

Peter From Maidstone

I see that an Indian woman is trying to overturn the new immigration rule which says that wives and husbands seeking entry must be proficient in English. One husband does not speak English and his Indian wife believes that her human rights are being denied.

At what point to the rights of society as a whole to be preserved from increasing and unremitting fragmentation and atomisation kick in? Apparently this non-English speaking man will be able to play a full role in British society even while being unable to communicate with anyone?

When I used to work in Finland I made it a priority to learn Finnish so that I could communicate in the local language. When I have been on holiday abroad I try to learn some of the local language so that I can be respectful. Why does our British society and culture mean so little that it can be disrespected in this way for the sake of one person's artificial rights.

With respect to this Indian woman, she should either return to India to be with her husband, since she has dual nationality, or encourage him to learn English so that he can more reasonably become an immigrant.

To be honest, as a machine operator, I am not convinced his skills are so unique that he should be entitled to residency here in any case. If this woman has travelled back and forth for 15 years then it is perhaps not unreasonable to suggest that she might be happier in India.

Certainly the last thing Britain needs is another non-English speaking immigrant. If I planned to live in India I would certainly be learning the local language now. Why is it too much to ask in this case? and why is British society being put to the cost of defending itself against further assault from those who do not wish to be British in any case?

Kennybhoy

David Ossitt on July 27th, 2011 7:40pm

"...the results of my suggestion would be highly entertaining."

Only if one is morally depraved. The type of individual that considers animal baiting or, even, gladiatorial games entertaining.

Kennybhoy

telemachus on July 27th, 2011 7:52pm.

Lots of Polish and Irish folk, and the descendants of same, to be found at Paradise. My invitation still satands...

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone
July 27th, 2011 8:21pm

This looks like a string of manufactured reasons to keep a non caucasian out.

My Chamber of Commerce chums are crying out for machine opreators

telemachus

Meanwhile the sage Mr Stoltenberg has wise words for the wall

Mr Stoltenberg acknowledged that there would be "one Norway before and one after July 22," but he pledged that the country would become "a more open, tolerant society than what we had before," rejecting attempts by right-wingers in other countries to legitimise Mr Breivik's massacre by attacking immigrants

Kennybhoy

Are the Speccie bloggers, Maister Cohen excepted, under orders not to write about the Norwegian massacre?

daniel maris

Mike F -

On what possible basis do you claim that "no one on this site" is sympathetic to Nazism when we have people clearly arguing that some races are more moral and intelligent than others; when we have people deploying familiar Nazi rhetoric about Marxist undermining of "natural" social values and when we have people rejoicing in the "might is right" argument.

I think you are purblind if you see no Nazi sympathisers here. They disguise themselves somewhat only because overt Nazi propaganda here is censored.

Herbert Thornton

David Ossitt (July 27th, 2011 7:16pm)

When you wrote "...yes Ahmed you are being intentionally silly." you were right.

I think that Ahmed is trying to persuade us that he is a tolerant fellow with a disarming sense of humour.

But after he has tried so hard to paint Christians in a bad light, it would have been more honest if he had written not of mosques in our back gardens, but of gallows being erected there for the purpose of hanging 8-year old boys. That actually happened only a few days ago in Afghanistan when some extra devout Muslims hanged an 8-year old boy.

That is of course very dark humour indeed, but if it in any way helps Ahmed begin to understand why so many infidels view Islam with such horror, it worth while expressing it.

Verity

Peter from Maidstone - "Certainly the last thing Britain needs is another non-English speaking immigrant. If I planned to live in India I would certainly be learning the local language now."

Actually, I don't know what level of IQ this fellow who can't learn English has, but almost everyone in India, except remote agricultural regions, speaks English as a second language ... frequently with more skill than some of Britain's indigenous louts.

The man must have an IQ of 2 1/2.

David Ossitt

Peter From Maidstone

Peter you failed to point out that she lives here with her parents (I wonder how many siblings there are already here?) and that she has secured visas for her seven children.

Labour has burnt the crops, salted the earth and poisoned the pure water well.

Hexhamgeezer

RE: telemachus
July 27th, 2011 7:52pm

Its not often, thank goodness, that you have to share blog space with apologists for, and fans of, the likes of Vasili Blokhin.

Vile, truly vile.

Dick Barton

They have their nerve.

"Islamic extremists set up Sharia law zones in British cities."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-British-cities.html#ixzz1TLk0olq1

telemachus

“We should understand too that one ideology that is fundamentally opposed to rule by genuine democracy is Islam”

Your whole thesis is wrong
Islam is a creed, a belief and like Christianity has nothing to say about absence or not of democracy. The great swathes of the mid-east moving toward democracy are by and large encouraged by the Mullahs.

Frank P

As silliness seems to be the current theme on the Wall, please make way for my naughty niece who just delivered a double whammy. The first arises from her being unfortunate enough to know professional aviators (sad when she already has the genetic misfortune of having me for an uncle:

Pilot’s Fairy Tale

Once upon a time, a Pilot asked a beautiful Princess, "Will you marry me?"

The Princess said, "No!!!"

And the Pilot lived happily ever after and flew jets all over the world and rode motorcycles and banged skinny long-legged big-boobed broads and hunted and fished and raced cars and went to naked bars and dated women half his age and drank whiskey, beer
and Captain Morgan and never heard bitching and never paid child support or alimony and banged cheerleaders and kept his house and guns and ate spam and potato chips and beans and blew enormous farts and never got cheated on while he was at work and all his friends and family thought he was friggin cool as hell and he had tons of money in the bank!

AND left the toilet seat up!!!

The end.

The second no doubt reflects the fact that she is now getting on a bit and has to start thinking about defeating the ageing process:

THE IMPORTANCE OF WALKING

Walking can add minutes to your life.
This enables you at 85 years old to spend an additional 5 months in a nursing home at £2,000 per month.

My granddad started walking five miles a day when he was 60. He's now 97 years old and we have no idea where the hell he is.

I like long walks: especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.

The only reason I would ever take up walking is so that I could hear heavy breathing again.

I have to walk early in the morning, before my brain figures out what I'm doing...

I joined a health club last year, spent about 250 quid. Haven't lost a pound yet...................Apparently you have to go there!

Every time I hear the dirty word 'exercise', I wash my mouth out with chocolate.

I do have flabby thighs, but fortunately my stomach covers them.

The advantage of exercising every day is so when you die, they'll say, 'Well, she looks good doesn't she.'

If you are going to try cross-country skiing, start with a small country.

I know I got a lot of exercise the last few years,...... just getting over the hill.

We all get heavier as we get older, because there's a lot more information in our heads.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Every time I start thinking too much about how I look, I just find a pub with a Happy Hour, and by the time I leave, I look just fine! As does everyone else !!!

You could run this over to your friends - Naw! - just e-mail it to them. . . . . . . it'll save you the walk!

Herbert Thornton

Has any Coffeehouser ever read Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? I certainly haven't and considering that it's six volumes long, I very much doubt that I ever will.

I'm only asking the question because I was curious about Anders Breivik's manifesto and looked it up on the Internet - and tried to skim through it. I don't know how it's length compares with Decline and Fall but it's certainly so long that to read it all would take me weeks - even if I gave up gardening and watching TV and doing the daily crossword puzzles.

I ended up trying to jump through it grasshopper fashion and even that failed - though I must say that most times when the grasshopper landed I wanted to keep on reading.

Has anyone else actually read much of it and if you have what does he have to say that may be the most interesting? It's apparently here -

*ttp://www.scribd.com/doc/60739170/2083-a-European-Declaration-of-Independence -

but reading it via computer would be a Herculean task. I think it should be published and made available - just as Mein Kampf is - so that we can try to get an insight into Breivik's mind and decide whether he is completely nuts, or simply completely evil or what.

Many years ago I did once embark on reading read Mein Kampf and was repeatedly impressed by it - often favourably too - until I got about three quarters of the way through - and suddenly the scales fell from my eyes and I was so sickened that I couldn't finish it. I'd like to know how reading Breivik's opus may compare with Mein Kampf. Does it, for example, produce at some stage, something so sickening that the effect is that of being unable to read further?

Verity

BTW, was the greatest British leader in living memory, Sir Winston Churchill, ever sent to "the other place"?

No.

Yet today, that slab of lard (and that's just what's inside his skull) joltin' John Prescott is there, as is the formerly anonymous and untalented in any area (as far as we know) Warsi.

How did this happen?

Sir Winston was not in the Lords and foreign Whatsits Warsi and John-against-The Office Wall "bulemic" Prescott are?

Doesn't this tell us that the Lords needs to be swilled out and the hereditaries restored as the sole occupants?

Verity

H Thornton, what an interesting post!

telemachus

Many years ago I did once embark on reading read Mein Kampf and was repeatedly impressed

Ho can a reasonable person express impresssion with a tract such as this?

Austin Barry

As a coda to the squalid death of the caterwauling chanteuse Amy Winehouse, one wonders whether her life would have been different had she changed her name to Amy Coffeehouse and joined the denizens of the Wall, where sobriety is, for the most part, a basic requirement.

Derek

An interesting analysis of Breivik can be found at Front Page. Here is an extract on the man's approach to Muslims:

"Breivik viewed Muslims as the enemy, but only domestically. He emphasized that; “Knights Templar do not intend to persecute devout Muslims”

And he contemplated collaborating with them on terrorist attacks against Europe. “An alliance with the Jihadists might prove beneficial to both parties… We both share one common goal.” The Caliphate was a useful enemy for his cause.

In Breivik’s own words, this is how such an arrangement would play out;

“They are asked to provide a biological compound manufactured by Muslim scientists in the Middle East. Hamas and several Jihadi groups have labs and they have the potential to provide such substances. Their problem is finding suitable martyrs who can pass “screenings” in Western Europe. This is where we come in. We will smuggle it in to the EU and distribute it at a target of our choosing. We must give them assurances that we are not to harm any Muslims etc.”

Ask yourself is these are the words of a anti-Jihadist who was fighting against Islam. Or a delusional European terrorist who was willing to ally with Jihadist against his fellow Europeans."

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/28/debunking-6-myths-about-anders-breivik/

Frank P

Austin Barry (7.47am)

What a whimsical thought to open the day's proceedings. Thank you! Now back to bed with you and sleep it off.

Austin Barry

Frank P. 8.13 am

Indeed, I will.

Zzzzzzzzzz…mmmm….Margaret Beckett…grrrrrr ... don’t come aknocking, if caravan arocking…zzzzz …

Ahmed Khan

@ Peter from Maidstone 27 July 7.39

Totally agree with you. ‘’ we should not be tolerant of any person or group which will not support British values, freedoms, rights and democracy but wishes to undermine, subvert and destroy them’’ and ‘’ Indeed I don't think that many politicians have been faithful to their oath of allegiance’’

I understand your issues but what is the solution to uphold British values. Do we need to for example ban Muslims from standing for Parliament, do we need to take the voting rights away from British Muslims, do we need to force feed Muslims to eat non-halah meat…

Occasional Ostrich

Austin Barry:

"where sobriety is, for the most part, a basic requirement"

NOW I know where I've been going wrong;_)

Occasional Ostrich

For Frank P's naughty niece:

To those wimmin who insist on the toilet seat being left down, "Doesn't the dust stick to yer arse?"

Dick Barton

Ahmed Khan

Sounds like a plan.

Dick Barton

"Judge Christopher Prince told White: 'These are very disturbing offences.

'You have committed offences that amount to a campaign which demonstrated hostility towards Muslims."

Any guesses at what Mr. White did?

telemachus

Your comment will automatically go live on the website in a few moments.

Convenient fiction 1228 28/7/11

Pete Hoskin

CoffeeHousers all on the CoffeeHousers' Wall: just to point you in the direction of Nicholas's great cartoon at the top of this page.

Apologies to him, and to everyone, for the delay in getting it up here. It should have gone up in my absence last week, but didn't. Then it should have gone up in the last couple of days, but didn't. Apologies, again.

We'll make sure that it doesn't happen in future, not least because Nicholas's work brightens up this Wall no end.

Clear Memories

Ahmed Khan
July 28th, 2011 9:01am

And on the voting point you make, no non-nationalised person should be allowed the vote and, as with Australia and many other places, citizenship should not be granted until a binding oath the nation above all other things has been made.

Of course, its not possible to become a citizen of any Arab nation, nor, I think, India or Pakistan

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Pete Hoskin
July 28th, 2011 12:27pm
Thanks, Pete, and certainly to you too Nicholas. You have brightened my day!

Ahmed Khan

@ Dick Barton

so can we have your thoughts as how to implement the so called 'Plan'.

Hereford

@ Dick Barton: This case is a demonstration of how our language has been perverted. Everything has been escalated. Nothing is quite good anymore - it is EXCELLENT! That which was excellent is MEGA! Admittedly harsh treatment is now equivalent to torture of the medieval type.

The use of the word 'attack' to describe what might be better termed as an act of mischief is such a perversion. Nobody was physically damaged or hurt, no property was destroyed. Yes some sensibilities may well have been affronted. But most of us suffer affronts to our sensibilities on a daily basis. What if all of these were construed as 'attacks'?

A custodial sentence in this case is in itself a perversion. I think the Judge is more interested in establishing his left wing liberal and street cred than he is about justice.

Ahmed Khan

@Pete Hoskin or aka HOSKINS

better late than never

telemachus

Nicholas

Ha Ha Ha

Yvette of course is a major asset, articulate, competent and brave

Her husband is an even more major asset whose predictions were shown correct in yesterday's figures

Thankyou for pointing out these truth's

Ahmed Khan

Ignore the previous

Peter, thanks for putting up the cartoons. Somethings are certainly worth waiting for.

Full marks to Nicholas...

charles hercock

Piers Morgan now

If they are successful, knock em down

I've posted before about the Diana style hysteria triggered by phone hacking

Where will it all end?

charles hercock

Having said all that

What about Clegg and Lebedev(see 9.04 26/7)?

daniel maris

Herbert, yes I did read Decline and Fall, many years ago. A jolly good read. Prose of the first order.

Gibbons was fashionably pro-Islam like Voltaire as well.

Breveik sounds like a straightforward Nazi. I have always said that anti-Islam is a pose for Nazis. They are in fact quite sympathetic towards Islam as a martial creed, naturally anti-semitic and anti-democratic. Hitler and Himmler were certainly of that view and Hitler expressed the view that Islam would have been a good religion for the Germanic peoples to have taken up.

Nazis only make a pretence of opposition to Islam in the hope of stirring up racial conflict. They always seek to mix up race and religion as we see on this site where people talk about Islam as a threat to so-called "indigenous" whites whereas Islam, wherever it holds sway is a threat to non-Muslims of all races.

Austin Barry

Dick Barton@12.22

Lest they incur the wrath of Judge "Rashers" Prince the citizens of South Shields should be very careful where they discard their al fresco pork scratchings and lager cans.

They can probaby deposit with impunity more or less anything outside Christian places of worship, although it may be imprudent to leave small children outside Catholic churches.

Ghengis

frank P today 12:29 - I've just caught up with the current Wall. The rest need not have bothered posting their usual rubbish. Yours carried not only an effective message to us all, but in an extremely funny manner. Stick with it mate.

Andy Carpark

Someone has put me wise to possibly the worst article written on any subject. Ever.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you: Tricia Fox of Huffington Post on the subject of why Amy Winehouse's death is a wake up call for small businesses.

*ttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/tricia-fox/self-employed-risks_b_907921.html

Ghengis

Andycarpark 1:45 - Oh Dear, Your pointer to an article, which you state we will no interest in whatsoever, sums the present Wall up perfectly.

telemachus

In our sister publication, The Daily Telegraph today

... has learned at least 250 British-based contacts were sent Breivik's manifesto, in which he explains his extensive links to far-right groups in the UK, less than two hours before he killed 76 people in Norway's worst terrorist atrocity.

Three addresses include reference to the British National Party

The Breivik-Barnhardt tendency

telemachus

Nicholas

Ha Ha Ha

Yvette of course is a major asset, articulate, competent and brave

Her husband is an even more major asset whose predictions were shown correct in yesterday's figures

telemachus

If my last post survives

Contrast this with Osborne

George is whistling in the dark in his refusal to appreciate the calamitous condition of the economy.

To pretend that the situation is "positive" with the economy "continuing to grow and creating jobs" is as fatuous as the Office for National Statistics (ONS) claim that growth figures have been heavily influenced by the royal wedding, Olympic ticket sales, record warm weather in April and the Japanese tsunami.

Although the government's slash-and-burn approach to our public sector has not yet fully hit home, it is already affecting people's behaviour.

They are attempting to pay off debt and spending less on household goods, creating an atmosphere of fear for the future. The government has a responsibility to take action to mitigate against the worst consequences of the crisis sparked by the irresponsibility of the banks.

But David Cameron is insistent on concentrating on reducing the deficit and thereby preserving Britain's AAA credit rating.

The coalition government's no-paid, no-gain approach is selective.

The pain is all at one end of society, while the City slickers are back in full swing with similar levels of profits, bonuses and share dividends, while supermarkets and energy companies have joined the finance sector in registering obscenely high profits as a result of pushing up prices.

At the other end, workers in both the public and private sectors are facing job insecurity, small businesses are unable to secure essential loans and people on state benefits are under additional pressure as part of the government's obsession with cutting public expenditure. Squeezing workers, small businesses and claimants simply cuts demand, creates misery and makes further economic stagnation more likely.

The government ought to be expanding the economy rather than cutting it.

It ought to reverse the freeze on capital construction projects announced before the election by Alistair Darling and to rethink the ideologically driven assault on our public sector.

The ruinously expensive private finance initiatives insisted upon by Darling and Gordon Brown before him should be axed in favour of cheaper, more effective Treasury loans.

Industrial development should be assisted through a Strategic Investment Bank, which could be financed by windfall taxes on the banking, supermarket, energy and pharmaceutical predators.

Both investment and justice would be served by rejigging the tax system to switch the burden from working people to big business and the wealthy and cracking down on tax loopholes that enable the rich to avoid paying their fair share.

telemachus

Andy Carpark
July 28th, 2011 1:45pm

Report this comment

Someone has put me wise to possibly the worst article written on any subject. Ever.

Or perhaps this post

Peter From Maidstone
July 25th, 2011 1:46pm

Austin Barry

Ghengis, today@2.08 pm

Ah, poor little Ghengis contra mundum.

The etiolated languor of the voyeur who over indulges in what Baden-Powell called ‘beastliness’.

Instead of carping at the Wall, liberate both hands and chip in with a meaningful effort.

telemachus

Anne Wotana Kaye 1
July 28th, 2011 1:05pm

Report this comment

Pete Hoskin
July 28th, 2011 12:27pm
Thanks, Pete, and certainly to you too Nicholas. You have brightened my day!

Never takes much

David Ossitt

At 12.22pm today Dick Barton asks “Any guesses at what Mr. White did?”

The following taken directly from the Daily Mail website and gives a clear and detailed picture.

In my opinion this should have never come to court, but if it had surely a magistrates court would have sufficed.

For the judge to keep the man on remand until September is merely grandstanding to his Muslim audience as was his comment “'Such foul discrimination is offensive to all right minded people, regardless of their religious beliefs.”

Well it did not offend me one tiny bit.

The piece from the Daily Mail.

A churchgoer who left pork products outside a mosque during a hate campaign against Muslims has been put behind bars.

John White, 63, left rashers of bacon outside the religious building in South Shields, and similar products outside worshippers' homes.

Newcastle Crown Court heard that despite the distress caused to the members of the Jam-E-Masjid mosque, chairman Mohammed Miah has told police he bears no grudge.

Stuart Graham, defending White, said: 'The chairman of the mosque has said everything has calmed down and they don't wish him any ill.

'Something has triggered this, but they certainly don't wish him any harm.'

Judge Christopher Prince said Mr Miah has shown 'great humanity and sensitivity' in his attitude and should be commended for taking the view he has.

But the judge said White, who lives near the mosque and has attended a church in the same street for over 30 years, must be kept in custody until he is sentenced in September.

White had been caught on CCTV carrying out the hate attacks in January and confessed what he had done when he was arrested.

But when his case got to court he claimed the police had somehow forced him to wrongly confess and pleaded not guilty.

White was due to be tried by a jury yesterday but before the hearing started he informed his lawyers he would be changing his plea and admitted five charges of religiously aggravated harassment, alarm or distress.

Judge Christopher Prince told White: 'These are very disturbing offences.

'You have committed offences that amount to a campaign which demonstrated hostility towards Muslims.

'Such foul discrimination is offensive to all right minded people, regardless of their religious beliefs.' Stuart Graham, defending, said White has sought help with his mental health for many years and psychiatric evidence may be a feature of mitigation that could result in a non-custodial sentence.

Mr Graham asked that White's bail be renewed as there has been no further trouble since the incidents, which seem to have been sparked by a falling-out with one particular individual.

He said the offences were 'stupid acts' and White had associated with Muslims for many years without difficulty.

Mr Graham said, 'The risk of damage to the public is incredibly small.'

But the judge refused and told White: 'It appears to me there is a substantial risk you are, at the moment, in a volatile and unpredictable state of mind and it seems to me if you are suffering from a psychiatric disorder it would be rash of me indeed to release you back into the community when there continues a risk you might behave in this way or launch into another campaign.'

The court heard a huge police investigation was launched when the mosque, which is a well established part of the South Shields community, became a target.

It had been initially feared the offensive acts were being committed by an organised group rather than an individual.

But prosecutor Tom Moran told the court: 'Thankfully it was nipped in the bud, the police caught him quickly. It has not led to other problems.

Peter From Maidstone

Ahmed Khan, I do not think that Muslims should not be allowed to stand for election or vote, but I do think that Muslims who will not at the least make the citizenship pledge in public should not be allowed to stand for election or hold public office.

In terms of voting, my own views are that there are a variety of categories of people who should not be able to vote. They include:

i. All commonwealth citizens who are not British citizens (presently Indians and Pakistanis can vote, and usually vote Labour. I can't vote in Indian or Pakistani elections)

ii. Recent citizens should not be able to vote until after a probationary period.

iii. Criminals should not be able to vote while in custody, and not until after a probationary period after their release.

iv. Long term benefit receivers who have not paid a threshold amount of tax, or have not been married to a tax payer, should receive only 1/2 a vote.

v. Those employed directly by the state should only receive 1/2 a vote.

vi. Engagement in socially productive and beneficial activities, such as volunteering, would be worth 1/2 a vote to those who are living on benefits or are employed by the state.

vii. Members of the Armed Forces would recieve a full vote. Those on active service in a region of conflict would receive two votes.

I'm willing to negotiate on some of these categories. But the principle should be that only those who fund state expenditure should have a say over how it is spent, and the weight of those who are not funding the state should not press down on those who are.

In a world where 51% of the population are on benefits, not citizens, or employed by the state, it would be almost impossible for the 49% who fund state expenditure to ever call a halt to it. This cannot be fair.

telemachus

charles hercock
July 28th, 2011 1:21pm

Where will it all end?

Yes but do not let the major players get off

Boris Johnson runs the Met so this
Telegraph post is relevant

Phone hacking: Boris Johnson accused over 'codswallop' comment
Mayor 'would have been attempting to pervert course of justice' had he known of investigation at time of remark in 2010, police authority member claims
Boris Johnson would have been "attempting to pervert the course" of justice if he knew police were actively investigating phone hacking when he described fresh allegations as "codswallop", a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority (MPA) has claimed.
Jenny Jones, a London assembly member for the Green party, made the claim after the mayor's deputy for policing, Kit Malthouse, revealed he was informed that Scotland Yard was looking into claims made in a New York Times article on 10 September last year, five days before Johnson dismissed the allegations as a "political put-up job" by Labour.

David Ossitt

Frank P’s latest two from his naughty niece, reminded me of this one; I do hope that it is not too rude.

A Cowboy walked into a drug store in Waco, Texas and asked to talk to a male pharmacist.

The woman he was talking to said that she was the only pharmacist and as she and her sister owned the store, there were no males employed there.

She then asked if she could help him.

The cowpoke said that it was something that he would be much more comfortable discussing with a male pharmacist.

The female pharmacist assured him that she was completely professional, and whatever it was that he needed to discuss, he could be confident that she would treat him with the highest level of professionalism.

The cowboy then agreed and began by saying ....... "This is tough for me to discuss, but I have a .... Permanent Erection. It causes me a lot of problems, and severe embarrassment, and I was wondering what you could give me for it."

The pharmacist said "Just a minute, I'll talk to my sister."

When she returned, she said "We discussed it at length, and the absolute best we can do is as follows:

One-third ownership in the store,
A company pick-up truck,
Five home-cooked dinners a week,
And $3,000 a month in living expenses."

Dick Barton

Ahmed Khan

I thought that was your plan, or do you use a dab of irony in your posts?

Anyhow, in the absence of a policy to reverse the Labour Party's strategy of increasing their constituency by importing large numbers of muslims, I would guess that measures similar to those used by the English when Roman Catholics were trying to subvert the state would be adopted. That unhappy future of course is at the door of Labour and other members of the recklessly self-indulgent political class with which we are currently saddled - and their useful isiots.

Verity

Austin Barry 7:47 a.m.- That hilarious! Thanks!!

Verity

Occasional Ostrich 10:08 and 11:30 - Very funny! Gosh, The Wall's much improved today and getting some vim back!

Dick Barton

Ghenghis

Thanks for your usual rubbish.

Verity

David Ossitt - I shouldn't have laughed, but I did. It's also winging its way around.

David Ossitt

Peter From Maidstone.

Hello Peter regarding your post on voting rights I would not disagree with any of your post.

I am frustrated that a much loved daughter in law who happens to be a citizen of the U.S.A. but has lived here permanently with my son (her husband) for almost a quarter of a century.

In that time she has worked full time (apart from maternity leave) paid her taxes and national insurance, never ever been the recipient of benefit other than child benefit and has given birth to a daughter and a son who can and do vote, but she can not.

And yet any hubble-bubble smoker can pitch his tent, fill in a postal voting form for himself and another dozen (who do not exist) no wonder the world and his wife want to come to the UK.

Herbert Thornton

I see that Telemullah is still at it - (July 28th, 2011 12:25am); (July 28th, 2011 5:29am). His uses of the Islamic debating tactics of Taqiyya (saying something that isn't true), and of Kitman (lying by omission) stick out like a sore thumb.

Peter From Maidstone

I am not sure whether or not to be proud to have been named the author of the worst post ever by telemachus. On balance I think I should receive it as a compliment.

Verity

Herbert Thornton - Telemullah! I love it!

And you are correct about the uses of taqya and kitman. To expand on the definitio, it is not all right, but is to admired, if a muslim swears a lie on the q´ran, as long as it is in the service of allah. That is another part of taqqya and kitman.

And that is why islamics must never, never, never be allowed to swear to tell the truth on a q´ran in a court of law. Whatever is testified will be in the service of allah, not British justice.

Th

Verity

P from M - I would definitely take it as a feather in my cap if I were you.

Clear Memories

telemachus
July 28th, 2011 2:55pm Report this comment

If my last post survives

You're doing better than me, apparently anything that contains the phrase 'vile cult' is inadmissable.

David Ossitt

There are no prizes on offer but just for the fun of it; let us see who solves this one first, what is “a smut leech” the anagram of?

When you spot it you might well think it very appropriate.

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone
July 28th, 2011 6:18pm

On balance I think I should receive it as a compliment.

It would be churlish if I intimated that it might not be meant as such

As you will surmise I lean to Wat Tyler's politics. As Nicholas and others have reminded me I do not have your breeding or intellect -- "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?" -- certainly not I

Herbert Thornton

Peter from Maidstone - you should certainly regard it as a compliment. I feel quite envious.

Incidentally, I've just noticed another of Telemullah's posts (July 27th, 2011 8:58pm) where he turns truth on its head and then twists it into knots -

"Meanwhile the sage Mr Stoltenberg has wise words for the wall....Mr Stoltenberg acknowledged that there would be "one Norway before and one after July 22," but he pledged that the country would become "a more open, tolerant society than what we had before," rejecting attempts by right-wingers in other countries to legitimise Mr Breivik's massacre by attacking immigrants."

"A more open, tolerant society than what we had before"?

Can't we all feel Stoltenberg's earnest humanitarian yearning to be able to let Breivik off with a caution, and to bring in even more Muslim immigrants?

God help Norway.

Frank P

Pam Geller lays it on 'em:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/07/mumbai_vs_oslo.html

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

David Ossitt
July 28th, 2011 7:22pm
EASY! That which dares not speak it's name (our house pest/troll)

EC

Frank P @8:01pm

Great article.

Here's James Delingpole on what looks like it could turn out to be Polarbeargate.

http://t.co/JOSAu1L

Great to see, one by one, the elements of Gore's AGW scam unravelling.

daniel maris

Peter from Maidstone -

Well you've finally come out and admitted you are not a democrat, since you are brazenly campaigning against the principle of one person one vote which is at the heart of democracy.

In addition to offending against a sacred principle of a free and open society, your proposals will produce idiotic anomalies, such as your VC awarded Fijian squaddies in Afghanistan serving in the crown forces and resident in the UK getting no votes. Severely disabled people who have never been able to work will also get no votes under your proposals. Meanwhile those people who manage council housing and work for the council will get half a vote and those who manage council housing and work for a private company hired by the council will get a full vote. What's the logic there?

We could all have a wish list. Personally I've never been impressed by the Kentish folk, who seem to be a rather diminutive breed with low intelligence and bad table manners. They should only get a quarter vote perhaps?

David Ossitt

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Hello Anne; got it in one.

Frank P

This may ring a bell with some of the senior punters here:

An old man and his wife are sharing a bottle of wine at the end of the day looking out over the sunset.

She says 'I love you so much, I don't know how I could ever live without you.'

He says 'Is that you or the wine talking?'

She replies 'It's me - talking to the wine.'

[Yes - you guessed: my nn's third of the day - think she's been talking to the memsahib?]

Frank P

EC

Not only does Delingpole persevere in pursuit of his prey, he writes with a polished style that improves with each article.

Thanks for that link, it reminded me that little has ensued from the revelation that Neil Wallis was mixed up in the UEA attempt to cover up its villainy in the Climategate exposure. The hacks have given it a wide berth. Why? This gossipy link is quite revealing:

http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/7/14/news-of-the-world-and-uea.html?currentPage=2#comments

Make sure you read through the comments; show-biz, government, NI all interlinked through Outside Organisation (OO). Cameron's route to the top through the PR machine becomes even more understandable. They're aaaaallll-a'it!

Pïssed Off - aka Verity

Peter from Maidstone, I tried to post on Conservative Voices, but when I hit send, it told me my "session" had expired to and to "log in" again.

a. I never logged in in the first place as you said you had organised it so people didn't have to log in.

b. I'm not going to spend another 20 minutes re-constructing the post.

Herbert Thornton

Daniel Maris (July 28th, 2011 8:52pm)

Your devotion to democracy and especially to the principle of one person one vote which you say is at the heart of democracy seems, to me, to miss the most fundamental problem that democracy now faces. The problem - at least in Britain - is that it has evolved (unlike e.g. Switzerland) into a condition where it has, in reality, ceased to be a democracy - and, even more frighteningly - into a condition where is has become self destructive both as a democracy and as a nation.

One alarming symptom of British democracy's turning towards self-destruction is that the overall level of turnout at a General Election across the United Kingdom collapsed from 71% in 1997 to 59.3% in 2001. In other words, little more than half the electorate voted.

Of course people are (unlike in Australia) free to abstain from voting, and in theory, the principle of being free people gives them the right to abstain. But it is a very unhealthy sign when so many do abstain.

One of the questions that should now exercise peoples minds more than ever is that cynical politicians have shown themselves to be not only unconcerned at such apathy - but have encouraged immigration into the country of immigrants who have very different ideas about the nature of government from the indigenous inhabitants - and moreover that those politicians are known to have done so with the actual purpose of influencing the outcome of elections.

The bulk of those immigrants are Muslims - followers of a religion that opposes the very principle of democracy as we knew it.

I am surprised that you seem not to recognise the obvious danger that this represents.

In my opinion democracy in Britain has evolved into de facto fascism with the current Establishment holding, for the time being, all political power. Moreover, the prevailing ethos of that Establishment is political correctness. That, combined with the levels and nature of immigration can only lead towards a steady power shift into Islamic hands. If that happens - and remember that nothing is being done to prevent it - power in Islamic hands means the extinguishment of democracy and the establishment of an Islamic Theocracy.

Yet we all know that the bulk of the indigenous British people have always been, and remain, opposed to the level and nature of the immigration that is being forced on them. That alone shouts from the rooftops that Britain is no longer a democracy.

Dick Barton

Daniel Maris

"..the principle of one person one vote which is at the heart of democracy."

Brave words, brave world! I assume therefore that you are in favour of votes for prisoners in gaol.

daniel maris

Dick Barton -

Hardly brave words - though brave men and women have died in their millions to defend or secure that principle.

Of course with any principle there will never be an absolute application in all cases. I personally would not allow any prisoner the vote. And the same would go for anyone living abroad for more than two years. However, those would be relatively minor exceptions. But PFM is riding a dumper truck through the principle, creating millions of cases of differential voting power in direct opposition to the principle.
In fact he is setting up a different sort of principle not so different from the old one that people with significant property should be granted a vote and no others.

Herbert Thornton - I don't entirely dismiss your argument about the growth of an undemocratic elite. We see increasingly that we are ruled by unelected judges and unelected EU offiicals. Personally I do favour Swiss style democracy. We are told it can't work in a country the size of the UK, but no one ever explains satisfactorily quite why. Switzerland after all is a sizeable country with a complex economy.

HOwever, to concede that there are undemocratic forces at work in our country does not mean we have to join PFM in his nefarious project to bring down the whole edifice of representative democracy.

Frank P

Peter/Verity

I experienced a similar irritating episode with CV a couple of evenings ago. Having decided that, as it was my first effort on John Ball's blog, I would polish a piece of pungent prose, laced with meaningful gravitas and wit :-), on the subject of the Norwegian atrocity to develop his theme. I banged away for a about twenty minutes or so and produced about five hundred words that could have changed the course of history (always supposin' that anybody bothered to read it) and then hit the 'preview' option thinking I'd better read it again just to make sure I was doing justice to Peter's new forum.

The whole thing disappeared in a flash and the software gave me the old 'numero uno' with a message that I was 'time expired'!

Now that may well be almost accurate, but I shan't waste whatever dregs that are left by pumping piffle into the cybermuda triangle as a result of impatient software. Reverting to my usual primitive vernacular, I shouted "Fuck you!" at the monitor , closed down my rig and retired to my cot.

As it was, the next morning Melanie had expressed in her post of 26th July - 'Fanaticism, mass murder and the left' all the points I had raised - and then some - and obviously much more eloquently than I could ever have achieved anyway. So perhaps the telepathy shtick worked - again - and there is an interconnecting unseen data base out there where all this thinking and fretting gets sorted and redistributed in tangible and unexplained substance!

Frank P

And before you techies tell me I should have composed it on Word and cut and pasted - Yeah! I know. But that doesn't excuse Peter's impatient software, does it?

Frank P

Very good post Herbert T! But then, has democracy ever really worked, anywhere, evah??

Unfortunately, its success depends on 'people' - a very dodgy premise.

Hexhamgeezer

RE: Andy Carpark @ 28th 1:45pm

Wonderful stuff and desperate bordering on the surreal.

For some reason it brought to mind a lovely radio piece by Laura Kuennsberg on the Beeb last week. Finally giving a bit of airtime to the (Greek) Euro bailout #17 instead of the Murdoch gleefest she spent most of the time considering the problems of the Greek saver. I must admit I hadnt considered their travails but dear Laura forgot to explain why she or her producer thought that the issue had relevance or priority beyond W1 or the Cotswolds.

Peter From Maidstone

One person, one vote has never been an essential of democracy. Democracy has always been defined locally, as is proper. Until 1918 women generally did not have the vote. Was Britain not a democracy before then? Or did it become one afterwards? Or did it become more democratic?

There were voters who DID have more than one vote until recently, and others have proposed systems of up to 7 votes for different categories of people.

It is a clearly stated political and social principle that a system which allows people to vote themselves more of other people's money is not sustainable - that is what we have at present.

More than that, the will of the people is not being represented at present. It hardly matters how many votes people have when Parliament does as it wills without restraint.

Peter From Maidstone

I have been researching the numbers of non-British citizens who are able to vote in British elections. In some places 25% of the registered electorate are NOT British citizens.

Citizens of all these countries can vote in our elections..

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei Darussalam, Cameroon, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Fiji Islands, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, India, Jamaica, Kenya, Kiribati, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Rwanda, St Kitts and Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent and Grenadines, Samoa, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, United Republic of Tanzania, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, Vanuatu, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Non-British can vote in UK elections

Peter From Maidstone

Frank P and Verity, apologies. I have extended the timeout to a couple of hours. At your convenience do try again.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Peter From Maidstone
July 29th, 2011 9:09am

Report this comment

One person, one vote has never been an essential of democracy. Democracy has always been defined locally, as is proper. Until 1918 women generally did not have the vote. Was Britain not a democracy before then? Or did it become one afterwards? Or did it become more democratic
===============================
Dear Peter,
Britain was most definitely not democratic until women obtained the vote, under the same conditions as men. By virtue of this, Britain became more democratic. Giving non-British residents does not make Britain more democratic, rather it weakens its democracy. Who wants Pakistanis and other third worlders poking their noses into our elections, and presenting postal votes from their 'spouses'? Those from the West Indies are a different matter. Allow them to be British subjects. Can't understand why we haven't.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Please noteb that I did not add Australia, New Zealand, Cyprus and all the other countries which have a Western Christian/Judaic ethos, have strong links with Britain, and should have the right of British nationality and therefore be able to vote. India must certainly be included, but again not Pakistan, Somalia, or any islamic countries which do not share our ethos.

Rhoda Klapp

It's friday. Look at that list of latest blog posts over on the right of the coffee house page. The very latest post is Bright on monday. One each from Cohen and Massie on saturday. Liddle ages ago and Susan awol for weeks. What is the point? Can we have some active bloggers, even over summer hols? I now understand that we may not ever be allowed a right-winger, although I regard it as a leeeeetle dishonest for the Spect not to admit as much. but if we are to have apostate lefties like Bright and Cohen, can't they be encouraged to defend their egregious posts rather than just pump them off in a drive-by incident and never return to engage, the latest Cohen being particularly offensive.

Peter From Maidstone

Dear AWK1, why should anyone who is not a British citizen be able to vote in British elections? I like Australians but an Australian should not have any rights to vote here unless they become a British citizen. I cannot vote in Australia unless I become an Australian citizen.

British votes should surely, and absolutely, only be for British citizens.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Peter From Maidstone
July 29th, 2011 11:27am
Peter, I stand corrected. Yes, obviously once they have become British citizens, and only then voting rights should be granted.

Peter From Maidstone

AWK1, I don't normally ever disagree with you, but I do think that Britain was a clearly a democracy before 1918. It may have been more democratic after 1918, but the form of Government was clearly a democracy.

We still have what is formally a democracy, but it is not clear that it is a good one, or a representative one. We must always be working to make our democracy appropriate to the times. This has happened in the past, but presently we seem stuck with a form of democracy that is not working well at all.

Re: Jamaicans. Perhaps some should be able to become British Citizens, but why all? Jamaica is a sovereign country for Jamaicans to freely live in. This issue is rather that Jamaicans as Jamaican citizens should not be able to vote in British elections. Presently they can and do.

To insist on British votes for British voters is not to deny the warm links which exist between countries, but offering the vote to non-citizens is not a proper or democratic means of showing friendship.

There is something very wrong with the fact that 23% of the registered electorate in Greenwich are not British citizens at all.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Peter From Maidstone
July 29th, 2011 11:39am
Brief answer as I am going out. A country which denied citizens full rights because of their sex was not democratic. Imagine if men were denied the vote but women could participate! West Indians served with honour in our wars and have kept our hospitals, buses and all important places of work running. If for some reason, after living here for years they do not have British citizenship it should be granted.

Kennybhoy

Rhoda Klapp on July 29th, 2011 11:14am

Heartily seconded!

daniel maris

PFM -

I don't have a problem with saying that voting in a democratic country should be confined to citizens of that country, but under cover of that reasonable proposition you are trying to smuggle in some outrageous anti-democratic notions. I don't mind you advocating a different form of government from democracy - your preferred system might be called a taxocracy (paying your taxes buys you votes). But I do object very strongly to you calling that preferred system of government "democratic" since it clearly is not.

As for your sixth form debating society point about whether Britain was a democracy in 1918 when women were denied the vote, well clearly it was not a full democracy which is why so many women were prepared to suffer all sorts of privations, including long periods in jail, in campaigning to usher in full democracy.

As indicated above, I don't actually think full representative democracy is actually the best we can do. I believe we can follow the Swiss model and create a much more direct form of democracy. But of course that is a matter for debate. What is not a matter for debate is the idea that you can have a democracy comprised of variable voting for normal free and resident citizens.That is plainly nonsense.

Andy Carpark

The fact that he has never, to my knowledge, posted anything of the remotest interest here does not invalidate Genghis's point that the Wall should consist of more than posted links, which not everybody will find amusing.

Despite or because of his piteous plaint, and as it's Friday afternoon, I have another link to post, this time from the golden age of Telegraph obituaries. For my money, this is the Koh-i-Noor not just of the obituary archives but of the internet itself.

A bongo-drummer, confidence trickster, brothel-keeper, drug-smuggler and police informer, one of the least of his crimes was the purchase of a Rolls-Royce motor-car 'with a worthless cheque'. A professional negotiator, international diplomatic courier, currency manipulator and authority on rock and roll, Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you: The Third -- Lord -- Moynihan.

*ttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/6604750/Lord-Moynihan.html

Augustus

It’s amazing how many lies get told after a massacre. Here are just three of them:

Lie number one: The massacre of 76 citizens in Norway occurred because of the gathering and growing threat to Muslims living in Norway and other countries in Europe. That is a lie. Norway has been beyond generous and hospitable to people of all faiths, including Muslims, and the average Muslim has more security in Norway than he or she does in most Muslim countries.

Lie number two: The killer is a fundamentalist Christian. Many members of the media have been searching for the last 10 years — because it has been 10 years since the attacks of 9/11 — for a Christian version of a jihadist, a Christian version of Osama bin Laden. On July 22, 2011, only one week ago, they had their fingers crossed, hoping they found one, and nobody was going to stop them from hammering on that nail, from trying to crucify Christianity for the massacre in Norway. And in case any of these latter day Christ killers is looking for the smoking gun quote from the killer himself, he says: "Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a relationship with Jesus Christ and God." Does that sound like a fundamentalist Christian? Only to an anti-Christian bigot.

Lie number three: It’s the right-wing books and columns and blogs that are responsible for the carnage. Can you imagine how much carnage there would be if every disturbed individual coming into contact with ideology left or right were to act upon it?
Can you imagine how much of a global bloodbath we would be in right now if every Muslim young man reading radical Muslim websites was to actually turn his keyboard finger into a trigger finger? The truth is, in the course of history some people with serious emotional, psychological and mental issues wrap themselves in various flags and ideologies in order to explain their warped views. Any reading of his manifesto or viewing of his video shows a man who is overly involved not with affection for white Europeans, but rather an adoration of himself. It’s called narcissism, and in extreme cases it's called lunacy. To put it bluntly, this doofus has been dirty dancing with the devil for quite some time, and on Friday, July 22, the devil had the last dance, the last word, the last bullet.

Frank P

Rhoda/Kennybhoy.

Another apparent lost cause, I'm afraid.

What about it Pete? I think at least an explanation would be polite, if somebody has one - other than 'take it or leave it'. We have, over the months suggested some substitutes for the absentees - and to correct the sinistral bias. With Melanie gone, who feeds the predilections of the primary punters now? Or was the sidebar just a gesture all along? Perhaps the staff posters can't take competition; the invidious or odious comparisons that might ensue? Whatever, I'm getting a whiff of the miffed on this site. You do your best to allay a sense of grievance, as I know from direct dealings with you; so can we assume that you are getting the bum's rush, too, from the inner sanctum?

Perhaps we should stage a demo outside OQS with placards. I know what Andy Car Park would have inscribed on his (which might be more relevant that even he appreciates). Any other suggestions for slogans?

David Ossitt

Frank P

“And before you techies tell me I should have composed it on Word and cut and pasted - Yeah! I know. But that doesn't excuse Peter's impatient software, does it?”

Hello Frank, you have admitted that you should have composed it on word, and you should, it has so much going for it, the ability to read and edit, the fact that it is safe within your own computer, the ability to keep on sending until it is accepted but more important we would have been able to read your missive.

David Ossitt

Peter From Maidstone.

“There were voters who DID have more than one vote until recently, and others have proposed systems of up to 7 votes for different categories of people.”

Now the only people who have more than one vote are those of a certain ethnicity who register large numbers of invisible inhabitants at the same address, or those who are the head of the family or tribe who either tell the rest of the family/tribe how to vote or else (in the case of postal votes) fill in all of the voting forms themselves.

daniel maris is wrong to suggest that your ideas are any more undemocratic than what we have at present.

The truth is that our system is failing us and needs to be revised.

In my opinion voting should be compulsory and there should be serious penalties for those who do not vote, I would prefer it if the voting age was still 21 but as it is not likely to be changed then voting from age eighteen should be restricted to taxpayers.

In fact only those who pay income tax (and their spouses) should be eligible to vote, short term unemployed (paid tax in the past year) should be eligible.

Postal voting should be restricted to the bedridden and to the armed forces abroad, all else should use the voting booth, to help enable all to vote polling stations should be open on a Saturday and Sunday.

David Ossitt

Peter From Maidstone
“Citizens of all these countries can vote in our elections..”

Peter you have missed one “The people of the Irish Republic” living in the UK.

Andy Carpark

Frank P @ 1:46 pm: 'Any other suggestions for slogans?'

WFGTDWI? (where F = BJ).

Austin Barry

From the BBC website.

“An actor who appeared as a goblin in a Harry Potter film has been given a 20-week suspended sentence for indecently exposing himself on a train.

Nicholas Read, 40, of Wade Close, Stoke-on-Trent, was found guilty of performing a sex act under cover of a juggler's hat in October 2010.”

One doesn’t have to be a forensic wizard to see grounds for an appeal here.

Verity

Voting should be restricted to citizens, end of story. You have to live in the US (on a green card and have been paying taxes) for five years before you are even ALLOWED to APPLY for citizenship (and if you don't pass,you are rejected).

Letting the pigswill that has floated onto our shores have a vote in the governance of our country is pure malice and signalled, from Day One, an intention to destroy Britain from within.

Dick Barton

AWK 1

"Britain was most definitely not democratic until women obtained the vote, under the same conditions as men. By virtue of this, Britain became more democratic."

Was NOT democratic before, but became MORE democratic after.

I think your logic needs adjusting, Anne.

If one was to apply the first part of your proposition to the ancient Greeks, Greek democracy would not have been democracy,since women and slaves did not the vote.In fact, it was arguably the purest form of democracy which has ever existed, despite that fact. Had slaves been given the vote in ancient Greece or the Roman republic...

Your proposition, unfortunately therefore, contains in my opinion the seed of democracy's destruction, since it would not seem to admit that the vote should in certain circumstances be limited in order to preserve it. It would therefore, to choose an example at random, accept as a democratic decision in a society in which there was a bare majority of muslim voters a vote to abolish democracy and the rule of law in favour of rule by the mullahs and sharia.

The correct principle, in my view, must at all times be: no civil rights for Genghis Khan.

Democracy cannot tolerate that the voice of those who would silence the people be allowed to prevail because they are in a majority: democracy is for democrats.

The terrible wound which Labour and the rest of the political class has inflicted on the country is to set the stage for a democratic vote to abolish democracy.

Cui bono?

Rhoda Klapp

'Nicholas Read, 40, of Wade Close, Stoke-on-Trent, was found guilty of performing a sex act under cover of a juggler's hat in October 2010.”

Was he juggling, or the other thing? Either way, it's a toss-up.

Dick Barton

Austin Barry, on a point of information.

What is a "juggler's hat"?

Dick Barton

Where significant numbers of our "civil " "servants" spend a significant part of their working day: "Why not leave reality behind and escape into a colourful, rich and in depth world where you walk amongst Goblins, Elves and Dwarves and where magic is real and fortune favours the brave?"

No, not the Bank of England, but
http://www.lorientrust.com/Homepage.aspx

Andy Carpark

Austin, The rusting gears of my mind move with less than forensic speed, but the defence you have in mind is analogous to the Graham Greene story in which the defendant produces his twin, to the extent that saucy Nicholas Read might have been massaging a member of the juggler's (=jester's) hat in which his John Thomas was not. Close?

Thucydides

I wonder if Mexicans talk about the pigswill that floats onto their shores?

Dick Barton

Sex act, British train, dwarf (little person), Juggler's Hat

- I'm trying to get my head round this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWBhTSZsqsA

or, possibly?,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kA83PBFBOY

Peter From Maidstone

Dick Barton, yes, I was thinking of the example of Greece, but the US was also not as democratic as it is now at its founding. Indeed we could imagine the internet making popular participation much easier and therefore a necessary development of democracy in the UK. It does not seem to me that would mean that what came before was not a form of democracy, simply that forms of Government must reflect and respect the electorate otherwise they become a tyranny.

Peter From Maidstone

David, I missed the Republic of Ireland from the list because I was only listing Commonwealth countries, whose citizens have a right to vote for our Government. There is a reciprocal arrangement with the ROI, but ROI citizens would have a right to vote here in any case because all EU citizens have a right to vote.

Indeed since the 23% of the registered electorate in Greenwich represents those who are Commonwealth rather than British citizens, and does not include EU citizens, it might well be the case that in Greenwich, for instance, 33% of the registered electorate are not even British citizens. Since this would represent 22,000 votes it could even be the case that Labour only won the seat because of these non-British citizen votes!

telemachus

Letting the pigswill that has floated onto our shores have a vote in the governance of our country is pure malice and signalled, from Day One, an intention to destroy Britain from within

One wonders just where this sort of thought ends

If human beings are derided as pigswill they are less than human

If we read Mein Kamph some religious minorities and ethnic groups were less than human....

telemachus

Looking however at the Luvvies moniker it has to be true

Richard of Moscow

Well said, Augustus, regarding the lies and drivel from the dumbed-down media following the Norwegian nutter's rampage.

The most bizarre gibberish was not just falsely calling the nutter 'right wing,' or even 'far-right,' but dishonestly trying to link him to the EDL, who are also far from being right wing, and whom the nutter had already dismissed for being non-violent.

Unless 'right-wing' now means 'able to make pampered, snotty, uneducated, middle-class wimps feel uncomfortable,' in which case I imagine the EDL would qualify.

And very funny seeing the NY Times, the BBC, and the Guardian, who were all apologists for neo-nazi murderers in Yugoslavia, trying to take the moral high ground.

Verity

Thucididdykins, N Americans (that means Canadians and US citizens) come down by plane. They don't "wash up". The few Europeans and rich S Americans that are here also come by plane.

Foreigners here are not only NOT accorded a vote, but we are not allowed to attend any political rallies. If you appear on camera attending a rally, even for a right wing, conservative candidate like President Calderon, you will get visit from the police.

On the few occasions my taxi went through an unforeseseen political rally at election time, I turned my face away or pretended to be searching for something in my purse.

And we have to go down in person and renew our pass every year and fill in our applications all over again. For SEVEN YEARS. If you make it through seven years with no black marks, you are allowed to apply for permanent residency or citizenship.

Permanent residents don't get the vote, but they don't have to go back down to Migracion with bundles of photocopied documentation any more.

If you want to apply for citizenship, they give list of, I believe it's 40, questions. You don't know which five or six the examiner will ask you, so you have to study all 40 subjects.

The examiner will pick six on the day of the interview, and you have to write an essay on the six subjects he/she chooses IN SPANISH.

And your essays had better be not only correct in historic detail, but the Spanish in which you have written them had better be perfect.

I know all this in such detail because a friend of mine went through it. He got through with straight As as he speaks beautiful Spanish, but he was a nervous wreck for three weeks before his appointment.

So, no, faux Greco the Gekko, the Mexicans do not wonder at the swill that has washed up on their shores, because they don't allow any.

Friendly tip for you: I wouldn't spend the money coming here in the expectation of being allow to stay.

Augustus

Peter from Maidstone - EU citizens residing in the UK are only allowed to vote in local council elections and in European elections.
They are not allowed to vote in UK general elections.

Herbert Thornton

Several of the more recent postings have identified what is now wrong with the governance of Britain so accurately that I've collected what I think are the best mots justes (if that's the right expression) from them and filed them away for future reference -

Dick Barton -
"The terrible wound which Labour and the rest of the political class has inflicted on the country is to set the stage for a democratic vote to abolish democracy."

Verity - "Letting the pigswill that has floated onto our shores have a vote in the governance of our country is pure malice and signalled, from Day One, an intention to destroy Britain from within." To that Verity, I venture to add this - and a big element of the influx openly declares that its aim is to replace British government with its own form of irreversible, retrograde, religious government.

Peter From Maidstone - "It is a clearly stated political and social principle that a system which allows people to vote themselves more of other people's money is not sustainable - that is what we have at present. More than that, the will of the people is not being represented at present." and - "We still have what is formally a democracy, but it is not clear that it is a good one, or a representative one.

David Ossitt - "The truth is that our system is failing us and needs to be revised....... voting should be compulsory and ........ should be restricted to taxpayers....
only those who pay income tax (and their spouses) should be eligible to vote, short term unemployed (paid tax in the past year) should be eligible.......Postal voting should be restricted to the bedridden and to the armed forces abroad...."

Frank P, with reference to democracy - "Unfortunately, its success depends on 'people' - a very dodgy premise."

daniel maris - (Yes even you, Daniel for at least conceding this much ) - " I don't actually think full representative democracy is actually the best we can do. I believe we can follow the Swiss model and create a much more direct form of democracy."

If asked to choose the best of the above, I think it's Dick Barton's. It sets out what's wrong with terrible clarity.

telemachus

Richard of Moscow
July 29th, 2011 6:15pm

From a penthouse perspective of the Baltschug Kempinski you may have missed the press reports indicating extensive correspondence with the EDL

Clear Memories

We’ve had a week now of the so-called right being blamed for the actions of a loony.

But he wasn’t of the right. And the right, as defined by the left (ie the BNP, EDL, DM readers) are not the right. In fact, the BNP are further to the left than Millibands Labour party – they are true Socialists.

Lets face it, the loon slaughtered apprentice socialists, the next generation of liars and schemers simply because he was a mad man.

So if a Socialist slaughtered those of the left, what next?

oderint dum metuant (ask Dick Barton)

telemachus

I am however heartened

Although Norwegians are in shock, they remain determined to defend multiculturalism
At least 150,000 people migrated onto Oslo’s streets—and Oslo’s population is only 605,000. People had flowers, but the square by City Hall and the surrounding streets were so crowded, that it was impossible to march.

I saw (on newscasts) a gathering of the real, multicultural Oslo—people of all colours, nationalities and religions.

Prime minister Jens Stoltenberg addressed the crowd, calling for “tolerance in an open society”.

The demonstrations were the best immediate response to the attack—but beware after grief comes anger.

The Breivik attacks came out of a deep hatred towards socialists and the labour movement all over the world

The English Defence League inspires him—although he calls on it to perform more spectacular actions.

We will need in England active struggle to defend our multicultural society and oppose racism

David Ossitt

“The schoolgirl killed for a bet: Boy, 16, was dared by Facebook friends to murder in exchange for a free breakfast”

That was the headline yesterday as a sadistic killer was found guilty of the murder of his girlfriend by crushing her scull with repeated blows with a rock.

The link to the whole sad story is below.

I pose the same question as I have before but put in a slightly different way, how can a country call itself civilised if it allows the perpetrator of such a hyenas crime live.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019409/Joshua-Davies-16-dared-Facebook-friends-murder-Rebecca-Aylward.html#ixzz1TWISMkjo

Herbert Thornton

Austin Barry (July 29th, 2011 3:58pm) -

Is the goblin much the same thing as a troll? After reading the report I wondered if the goblin (or troll) was actually was a juggler too.

And then everything combined made me think of you-know-who! Keep it under your hat though, eh?

Herbert Thornton

So Telemullah's doesn't like the word pigswill.

I think she was quite restrained.

It would have been blunter had she referred not to what goes into the pig, but to what comes out of it.

telemachus

Tens of thousands of Egyptians poured into Cairo's Tahrir Square today for a mass protest demanding a transition to civilian rule, the end of military trials for civilians and faster trials for officials of the former Hosni Mubarak government

So what has all this to do with us?

What is clear is that rightist troublemakers are trying to stoke up trouble between peace-loving Islamic groups who may have one or two differences but who like all moslems wish to live in harmony with their fellow man

What can we do?

We can do all in our power to foster the universal brotherhood of man and avoid the rebound of rightist islamophobia after the cult was crushed in the backlash against Breivik

telemachus

Is the Murdoch scandal is just the tip of the iceberg???

The phrase “If you want to know the time, ask a policeman” is informative. It has nothing to do with the police being helpful. It came from their reputation for stealing the watches of Victorian drunks.

Police corruption lies at the heart of the News International scandal. We are assured that only a small number of officers are involved. Whenever a cop is caught out we are told it is a case of “one bad apple”. But the stench of the rotten barrel is a very old one.

Remember Operation Countryman, involving the City of London police.
An investigation into a series of armed robberies led to evidence that police officers had set them up. One cop admitted, “All the blokes on the robbery squad had a drink in it going right to the top.”

When it came to a trial all the cops were acquitted, as no officer would testify.

Paul Condon, head of the Met during most of the 1990s, coined the phrase “noble cause corruption”—the idea that some police justifiably “bend the rules” to get a conviction when they “knew” the accused was guilty, but had no proof.

THIS IS THE KEY
+++++++++++

The powerful employ the police to protect their own property and privilege from the rest of us, and they don’t care about how it is done.

The justice system is a reflection of the society it protects. The system itself is inherently unjust, overwhelmingly favouring the rich against the poor.

The strings are pulled by the rich and powerful, the forces of the state, and the media. The accused are poor, without influence and power. That is why they end up framed, beaten or dead.

THIS IS EXEMPLIFIED BY THE MURDOCH EMPIRE

Herbert Thornton

Another thought about Telemullah and his latest humbug. He says that to describe some people as pigswill is the same as saying that they are "less than human" - and thus what - contrary to their "Human Rights" and therefore wicked?

Does that mean that we must not be allowed to characterise any human being as "less than human" because to do so is wicked?

Hitler was a human being - so what does Telemullah think of Hitler? Was Hitler, in Telemullah's mind, " human"? Or perhaps "superhuman"?

My guess is that he admires Hitler as superhuman - just like Telemullah's co-religionists and other supermen such as Osama bin Laden and his ilk, or the devout Muslims in Afghanistan who, several days ago, hanged an 8-year old boy, or the ones in Thailand who specialise in murdering defenceless Bhuddist monks* or, nearer to home, the devout Muslims Kafeel Ahmed, and Bilal Abdullah who tried to set off a bomb in Glasgow airport, or the many other Islamic terrorists and their myriads of enthusiastic supporters around the world.

Humbug, Taqiyya and Kitman - what a great combination for Telemullah to juggle with, as he fouls the local parish church with his presence, eh - if he ever actually enters it which is hard to believe.

* see - *ttp://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/thailand/110721/buddhists-arms-part-2

Dick Barton

Speak for England, Charles!

"It is grimly fitting that the Labour leaders who threw off Clause Four socialism should have secured what that clause called the “full fruits” of the industry of the workers for capitalists who then gambled them away. New Labour did so in order to bribe the same workers with ever-rising public spending from the short-term tax gains and the debt-created wealth illusion of higher house values...Modern governments across the Western world seem to be frightened of the people they govern, rather than on their side. Given the mess they have got us into, I suppose their fear is perfectly rational. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8671359/Our-leaders-have-lost-faith-in-the-powers-of-their-people.html

David Ossitt

“The schoolgirl killed for a bet: Boy, 16, was dared by Facebook friends to murder in exchange for a free breakfast”

That was the headline yesterday as a sadistic killer was found guilty of the murder of his girlfriend by crushing her scull with repeated blows with a rock.

The link to the whole sad story is below.

I pose the same question as I have before but put in a slightly different way, how can a country call itself civilised if it allows the perpetrator of such a hyenas crime live.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019409/Joshua-Davies-16-dared-Facebook-friends-murder-Rebecca-Aylward.html#ixzz1TWISMkjo

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Medical science can do many things, but not everything. It seems Ed Millipede has had an operation to stop him snoring. But can the doctors stop his audience snoring when the Millipede natters on?

Frank P

It's 23.50 hrs - no posts since just after 18.00 hrs. Has Old Bill seized the server?

Dick Barton

What shyster politician said this and then voted against raising the US debt ceiling?

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.”

telemachus

Herbert Thornton
July 29th, 2011 10:07pm

My guess is that he admires Hitler as superhuman - just like Telemullah's co-religionists and other supermen such as Osama bin Laden and his ilk,

Osama is as abhorrent as Breitvik, who in his direct personal involvement is more abhorrent than Hitler

My co-religionists sadly include Pastor Terry Jones so I fear he may just have a grain of justification for the slight barely felt

telemachus

The phrase “If you want to know the time, ask a policeman” is informative. It has nothing to do with the police being helpful. It came from their reputation for stealing the watches of Victorian drunks.

Police corruption lies at the heart of the News International scandal. We are assured that only a small number of officers are involved. Whenever a cop is caught out we are told it is a case of “one bad apple”. But the stench of the rotten barrel is a very old one.

Remember Operation Countryman, involving the City of London police.
An investigation into a series of armed robberies led to evidence that police officers had set them up. One cop admitted, “All the blokes on the robbery squad had a drink in it going right to the top.”

When it came to a trial all the cops were acquitted, as no officer would testify.

Paul Condon, head of the Met during most of the 1990s, coined the phrase “noble cause corruption”—the idea that some police justifiably “bend the rules” to get a conviction when they “knew” the accused was guilty, but had no proof.

THIS IS THE KEY
+++++++++++

The powerful employ the police to protect their own property and privilege from the rest of us, and they don’t care about how it is done.

The justice system is a reflection of the society it protects. The system itself is inherently unjust, overwhelmingly favouring the rich against the poor.

The strings are pulled by the rich and powerful, the forces of the state, and the media. The accused are poor, without influence and power. That is why they end up framed, beaten or dead.

telemachus

Tens of thousands of Egyptians poured into Cairo's Tahrir Square yesterday for a mass protest demanding a transition to civilian rule, the end of military trials for civilians and faster trials for officials of the former Hosni Mubarak government

So what has all this to do with us?

What is clear is that rightist troublemakers are trying to stoke up trouble between peace-loving Islamic groups who may have one or two differences but who like all moslems wish to live in harmony with their fellow man

What can we do?

We can do all in our power to foster the universal brotherhood of man and avoid the rebound of antimulticulturalism

telemachus

Frank P
July 29th, 2011 11:53pm

Report this comment

It's 23.50 hrs - no posts since just after 18.00 hrs. Has Old Bill seized the server?

Not the server just the mind
None of my excellent 5 posts went up at all

telemachus

David Ossitt
July 29th, 2011 11:17pm
I pose the same question as I have before but put in a slightly different way, how can a country call itself civilised if it allows the perpetrator of such a hyenas crime live.

I would pose a different question

How can a country brutalise its citizens to the point that they encourage them to kill fellow citizens?

This brutalisation extends from the snitch to the arresting officers, the prosecutors, the convicting juries, the sentencing authorities, the incarceration personnel and not just to the hangman himself

telemachus

Let us move back to issues that have true significance to our Society

Please read Today’s Torygraph

Patients struggle even to get on NHS waiting lists

Patients have told how they have struggled even to get on NHS waiting lists, forcing them to endure lengthy delays for treatment or to go private, as managers ration treatment to save money.

The examples emerged after The Daily Telegraph disclosed how health service funding bodies are artificially increasing waiting times as they wait for patients to die or go private.

One woman told this newspaper how the Royal Free Hospital in north London had tried to remove her from a waiting list after four months.

She said: “My first thought was they’re waiting till I go private or die.”

“The whole thing is a game,”

Sir Richard Thompson, president of the Royal College of Physicians, said: “The postponement of surgical procedures is a form of rationing forced on hospitals by their relatively reduced funding set against an ever increasing workload of acute care as the population ages.

“Patients should not have to wait longer than necessary as it increases anxiety and sometimes has a detrimental effect on their recovery. The Government needs to release more money for secondary care until further long term savings can be found.”

The NHS is as Margaret Thatcher said safe in Tory hands

So Mr Clegg do you have red lines in the sand?

telemachus

David Ossitt
July 29th, 2011 11:17pm

Everyone thinks human life is valuable. However human life is so valuable that even the worst murderers should not be deprived of the value of their lives.

The value of the offender's life cannot be destroyed by the offender's bad conduct - even if they have killed someone.

Life should be preserved unless there is a very good reason not to .Those who are in favour of capital punishment are the ones who have to justify their position.

telemachus

What shyster politician

Is the adjective just tautologous?

telemachus

Remember a millipede has many legs only some of which will be necessary to stamp on and finish off the coalition, maybe as early as this Autumn

telemachus

I am however heartened

Although Norwegians are in shock, they remain determined to defend multiculturalism

Prime minister Jens Stoltenberg addressed e crowds , calling for “tolerance in an open society”.

The Breivik attacks came out of a deep hatred towards socialists and the labour movement all over the world

The English Defence League inspires him—although he calls on it to perform more spectacular actions.

We will need in England active struggle to defend our multicultural society and oppose racism

Peter From Maidstone

I am not against capital punishment, and I do not believe the it is contrary to Christianity. But at present I cannot easily see how it can be applied except perhaps in the most heinous cases because it would be applied by a judiciary that is corrupted at the instigation of a political class that is corrupted and with the support of a population that has been corrupted.

I'd prefer, at present, full-life terms since there would be the possibility of review in the cases of a genuine miscarriage of justice.

If we are told, again, that there is no space in prison, then I'd encourage the immediate deportation of all foreign prisoners and the removal of citizenship and deportation of any immigrant who has committed crimes within the first 5 years of their citizenship. (I'd prefer the same model of immigration that Verity has described of Mexico though)

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

To all my fellow poster: This morning the sun is shining, so happily opened my computer to see what's new. Pig swill! Polluted by that troll vomiting all over the forum. So I shall abandon ship, as it were, and let this creature 'mentally masturbate' whilst I go off and enjoy the celemnt weather. If he/she/it is ignored, perhaps it will go away. It is after all, just a form of flashing or mooning.

Occasional Ostrich

Telemachus

None of my excellent 5 posts went up at all

O-oh! Get you, sweetie!

telemachus

If he/she/it is ignored, perhaps it will go away.

One has a duty to one's fellow man

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone
July 30th, 2011 9:43am
..... that is corrupted at the instigation of a political class that is corrupted and with the support of a population that has been corrupted.

Although I would look at the reasons not too slightly differently, I (as Wat Tyler or not) see the principle as the same

Rhoda Klapp

"None of my excellent 5 posts went up at all"

It's OK, the five shit ones have turned up.

Clear Memories

Cameron should steal this for his next PPB. And all Socialists should be forced to explain it.

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone

The Lollards condemned most things but to their credit advocated the diversion of ecclesiastical property to charitable uses, and denounced war and capital punishment.

We are pleased at your almost reiteration of the last but now espouse the first. The equivalence today would be to megatax the banks so that the coaltion do not need to butcher welfare

John Ball

I read this on a conservative website this week(referring to Norway)

“ There is no serious Christian group, however heterodox, which condones the slaughter of tens of young and essentially innocent teenagers”

The 1994 Rwandan genocide was committed by Christians (Rwanda is 90 percent Christian).

Rome has refused to excommunicate Catholics involved in the genocide - just as they refused to excommunicate Catholics involved in the Holocaust.

Also Uganda is 85 percent Christian and there is Christian sharia law in Uganda -In this supposed Christian country they have the death penalty for homosexuality

Clear Memories

Clear Memories
July 30th, 2011 11:43am Report this comment

Cameron should steal this for his next PPB. And all Socialists should be forced to explain it. (And The Wall can explain why the post linked but not the link)

*ttp://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/07/doorbell.php

Peter From Maidstone

John Ball (certainly not to be confused with the John Ball of Conservative Voices), these are all rather a collection of red herrings.

Firstly we are talking about the response of groups in especially the UK, but also in Western Europe, where it is being suggested that all right-wingers are likely to adopt the same violent strategy.

Secondly we are discussing the response to Breivik's actions not every incident of violence throughout history.

Thirdly, even in the face of inter-communal violence, such as in Rwanda, (which is much more complex than you suggest) the Vatican has never been other than entirely condemnatory. You have also ignored the fact that Catholic clergy in Rwanda were already speaking out about the unjust nature of Rwandan society. (That is not to say that errors were not made. But the structure of Rwanda society was essentially formed by the colonial powers)

Fourthly, you seem to think that excommunication is to be used as a punishment. It is not. (That is not to say that the Catholic Church - of which I am not a member - has always applied excommunication properly).

Fifthly the Ugandan abhorrence of homosexual practice is rooted in Ugandan (and most traditional) cultures. You are incorrect in asserting that there is the death penalty for homosexual practice in Uganda. There is not, although it is penalised.

If there are groups who condone and advocate the murder of teenagers then they are not serious Christian groups. I do not consent to the idea that anyone who calls themselves a Christian must be accepted as representative of Christianity - that is just another aspect of modern, liberal, value-less Western society.

Frank Sutton

John Ball , 1.01pm.
Why should the church excommunicate the genocidal sinners of Rwanda? The possibility of repentance and redemption is intrinsic to Christianity.
Are you the person who posts under the name John Ball on PoM's "Conservative Voices" site?
Somehow, I doubt it.

Augustus

John Ball - A modern Judeo-Christian society
is essentially a free society. In any free society there will be found saints and devils, individuals of varying talents and unique abilities — Newtons, Einsteins and Mozarts on the one end of the spectrum, and on the other imbeciles, perverts, misogynists, bullies and a sprinkling of psychopaths driven by demons inside them to murder as did Anders Breivik.

It would be sheer madness, and counterproductive, to imagine a free society that can insulate itself from such horror that ripped apart the heart of Norway on a quiet summer afternoon. Imagine such an effort as one similar to some municipality’s grand scheme to rid its precincts of all bacteria in its air and water supply. It cannot be done, or done in some imaginary construct of an impregnable fortress where any sign of freedom is expunged and human society is turned into an ant hill. In a free and open society, people will reach their own conclusions about what possibly transformed an apparently nice looking young man into a monster. Madness is by definition what is considered normal snaps, become scrambled, and paradoxically, is elusive for comprehension and repair in advance.
Whatever diagnosis is made of such madness, it will be inconclusive. The lesson here is that freedom is always fragile and it must not be suffocated even further to placate madness.

lescam

Just a query; is this the Coffeehousers' Wall, or Telemachus's Wall? If the latter, perhaps the Speccie can provide him with his own personal Wall, so that the rest of us can safely avoid him. As I routinely scroll past T's offerings, there is hardly a single post on the wall not by him.

David Ossitt

In the six hour period between 6.38am this morning and 12.38pm this afternoon, we have had eighteen posts to The Wall of these; thirteen are from our resident troll.

By my reckoning that is over 72%, these figures are in no way unique, he/she/it has frequently posted in such abundance, whilst I do not advocate any form of censorship it would in my humble opinion be a better Wall, were he/she/it to post less.

Does anybody else have an opinion on this; or better still has anyone a solution to this irritating problem?

Peter From Maidstone

Frank, the John Ball from Conservative Voices is myself, Peter of Maidstone.

Peter From Maidstone

It really does seem rather odd to me that the Spectator has so little to say about the incident in Norway when it seems to be so important for various reasons to so many people all over the blogosphere?

More than that, when important things like this happen that raise very serious issues, we seem to be fed a diet of news about David Milliband. I have to say that I have less than no interest at all in whether or not he is being asked to speak to a small group of university students somewhere. But I would be interested in a proper analysis of any purported links between Breivik and the UK. The Telegraph seems to be determined to find such links when they manifestly do not exist.

Is the silence at the Spectator a Barclay Brothers line? I'd have thought it was one of the more important things to have happened this year.

I notice that the 'Week That Was' post makes no mention at all of Breivik!

David Ossitt

The excellent Rod Liddle has been absent from the Spectator Coffee House for far too long, his last post The Glasto smug-fest was posted on Monday, 27th June 2011.

Since then, apart from a suspected sighting under the dark arches in Leeds City centre, nothing has been heard, his whit and wisdom is sorely missed.

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone
July 30th, 2011 2:36pm

Report this comment

It really does seem rather odd to me that the Spectator has so little to say about the incident in Norway when it seems to be so important for various reasons to so many people all over the blogosphere

Sorry lescam and David O'Ssit but I must comment on Pete's post

Virtually every post of mine on Scandinavia has been deleted this week. The reason I blanketed the Wall this morning was that I reposted sanitised versions of all posts "monitored" over the last 48 hours. There were 2, well sanitised, on Scandinavia which were "monitored" out repeatedly despite going through repeated iterations making them more and more bland.

Should I hang up my boots?

Verity

Rhoda K -Bravo!!

First laugh of the day ... and I was thirsty for a laugh after trudging over the dry, unproductive desert sands of yards ... felt like miles, of the repetitive boredom of the the "thoughts" of Telemullah. Good grief!! You'd have need hip deep fishing boots to trudge through that.

John Ball

Augustus
July 30th, 2011 2:04pm

It is the role of the church and the lack of compassion of Christianity which I have to question

Although no-one died, the Church in Ireland continues to seem to condone the actions of those priests who abused young children in their charge

Just yesterday or perhaps Wednesday I heard an Irish cleric saying that the sin of paedophilia was not serious enough for a priest hearing confession to deny absolution

How can we take a faith seriously that cannot live by a code of ethics respected by our forbears for generations

Augustus

"Does anybody else have an opinion on this?"

Diarrhoea is better out than in!

Augustus

John Ball - I agree with you that the Christian church needs to radically change its attitude. Nevertheless, as a Christian I
firmly believe in the need to lean on God. Realizing that need can often change a lot.

David Ossitt

The troll asks “Should I hang up my boots?”

Alice

Verity - Following on from your recent embarrassing fantasies of blowing up the BBC, can we look forward to the publication of your manifesto?

telemachus

John Ball
July 30th, 2011 4:46pm

How can we take a faith seriously that cannot live by a code of ethics respected by our forbears for generations

The insincerity of practitioners of the said faith is evidenced in many posts from alleged believers on this wall

How much more reason to turn from approbation to approval of Islam and so to true understanding of the meaning of brotherhood

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

David Ossitt
July 30th, 2011 5:52pm

Report this comment

The troll asks “Should I hang up my boots?”

"Yes, troll.But only whilst you're wearing them. and upside down a la Mussolini.

Herbert Thornton

David Ossitt (July 30th, 2011 2:20pm) -

Unfortunately none the most suitable remedies - e.g. confinement of the troll in a padded cell, or deporting him to Pakistan, is available.

I think he's hoping that his postings will have effect in a way similar to the financial principle that bad money drives out good, so that his deranged postings will drive out the sane ones.

So unless the moderators are willing to distinguish between the deranged and the sane, all the sane can do is entirely ignore the troll and keep on posting.

Occasional Ostrich

I do wish Penelope would pull her brat into line, perhaps by threatening him that his Dad'll be home in about ... ten years.

Occasional Ostrich

Rhoda Klapp @ 11:07am

"It's OK, the five shit ones have turned up."

OK, yours is snappier than mine.
Must try harder.

Frank Sutton

John Ball shows further misunderstanding of the Roman Catholic church when he cites an Irish priest saying that "paedophilia was not serious enough for a priest hearing confession to deny absolution."
It's not the role of a priest to deny absolution to a penitent in confession.
Absolution does not mean condoning.

telemachus

Verity
July 30th, 2011 4:44pm

The "thoughts" of Telemachus

Just so

Beats most of the dreary posts commonly heard on the wall

telemachus

Anne Wotana Kaye 1
July 30th, 2011 7:28pm

Sun get too much for you then?

telemachus

Occasional Ostrich
July 30th, 2011 8:14pm

Mama is servicing the 108
Tellus also fervently prays that Papa will stay on Ogygia singing Calypso's

Peter From Maidstone

I am creating a petition on the new DirectGov petition site to try and force a Parliamentary debate to reform the Representation of the People Act so that Commonwealth citizens who are resident in the UK but are not British citizens cannot vote in British elections.

The petition site doesn't go live until the end of next week, but this seems to me to be a policy which could possibly get somewhere. I would have thought that a great many people, both left and right are not aware that there are 1,000,000 Commonwealth citizens living in the UK who do not hold British citizenship who are affecting the outcomes of British elections.

daniel maris

PFM

I'd support it if it also prevented UK citizens non-resident in the UK for longer than one year from voting in UK elections.

Kennybhoy

Further to my own post of July 27th, 2011 8:58pm, and Peter From Maidstone's on July 30th, 2011 2:36pm...

And answer came there none...

Then again there are silences that speak louder than words.

Frank Sutton

Daniel Maris: "I'd support it if it also prevented UK citizens non-resident in the UK for longer than one year from voting in UK elections."
Why? If it has merit in its own right, it doesn't need extra conditions.

Verity

Dear vicious little Daniel Maris - Check the law. British people born and bred and with ancestors going back in our lands going back thousands of years can only vote for three years after leaving the country.

Fair enough. But Third Worlders who swilled in, having no roots in the country and whose ancestors did not share in forming it, are voting without even being citizens.

Key words, Maris: Research, research, research.

Verity

I'd never read one of his columns before, but this man is aces!

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100099107/anders-breivik-and-the-echo-chamber-of-the-trolls/

telemachus

PFM

Why?

What will this achieve except more divisiveness?

telemachus

Peter From Maidstone

On second thoughts there is one group we could well do without voting(and perhaps even export)

To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:
• be 18 years of age or over on polling day
• be resident in the UK
• be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a CITIZEN OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND
• not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote

Overt Moon

• SUNDAY IS AWARDS DAY

• Remember 3 categories

• 1.The poser award

• 2.The comedian award

• 3.The dement award

• AND THE SPECIAL END OF MONTH AWARD:-

telemachus

Verity
July 31st, 2011 2:52am

For readers unfamiliar with blogs, I should explain what I mean by “troll”. The word can be used to describe two types of commenters. There are simple-minded folk with jokey nicknames who fling insults at each other for hours at a stretch, amusing no one but themselves. My own blog is infested with them. Honestly, I sometimes wish they would crawl away and die. Then there are the pseudonymous obsessives
=======================
whose fingers are calloused from rattling
==========================================
out the truth about the “EUSSR”, BBC
=======================================
bias,Big Pharma, Zionists, Islam etc.
======================================

If the cap fits

telemachus

Frank Sutton
July 31st, 2011 12:28am

Report this comment

Daniel Maris: "I'd support it if it also prevented UK citizens non-resident in the UK for longer than one year from voting in UK elections."
Why? If it has merit in its own right, it doesn't need extra conditions.

Agree but it specifically needs to add the other folk in the same clause in the rules
(see above 6.23)

Boltonians need to be squared

Nicholas

"I think he's hoping that his postings will have effect in a way similar to the financial principle that bad money drives out good, so that his deranged postings will drive out the sane ones."

It's working.

Peter From Maidstone

Conservative Voices are launching a campaign to reform the Representation of the People Act so that citizens of Commonwealth countries who are resident in the UK but are not British citizens will not be able to vote in British elections.

British Votes for British Elections

Dick Barton

The religion of peace:

"At least 45 civilians were killed in a tank assault on the city of Hama on Sunday to crush pro-democracy protests, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said, quoting hospital officials in the city."

Universal brotherhood, telemachian style:

"(Mindanao Examiner / July 29, 2011) – The Philippine military evacuated to Zamboanga City government soldiers who were wounded and killed in fierce clashes with Abu Sayyaf militants in the southern province of Sulu, officials said.

More than a dozen soldiers were wounded in Thursday fighting in Patikul town where the military recovered the bodies of 5 marines who went missing. A total of 7 soldiers were killed in the clash with about 70 militants under Radulan Sahiron and Isnilon Hapilon. Some of those slain were decapitated."

They're victims of rightist islamaphobia says telemachus:

"(AP) – 4 days ago

PATTANI, Thailand (AP) — The southernmost part of Thailand's rail system was shut down Wednesday after two bombs damaged the tracks, while suspected Muslim insurgents shot dead two policemen riding a motorcycle."

Dick Barton

Oh, and of course in Egypt...

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/07/we-are-all-osama-bin-laden.html

telemachus

Frank P
July 29th, 2011 11:53pm
It's 23.50 hrs - no posts since just after 18.00 hrs. Has Old Bill seized the server?

The facility for repartee has gone

Subjects have become taboo(Peter From Maidstone July 30th, 2011 2:36pm )

The wall has become boring

Life has moved on

Do not however forget the CHARTER

(Please see—telemachus January 13th, 2011 7:23am )

Nicholas
July 31st, 2011 11:26am Report this comment

It's working.

But Nick old chap, working the other way

Boots hung up-sabbatical-Its all yours

Verity

Tellemullah - I see that you mentioned my name above. Be advised that my eyes glaze over when I see your name and stream of ignorant drivel and I now scroll down at speed to the next post, eyes unseeing.

Verity

John Ball tells us: "Also Uganda is 85 percent Christian and there is Christian sharia law in Uganda -In this supposed Christian country they have the death penalty for homosexuality."

And Uganda has not been ostracised and all aid withheld???? Do they seriously, in this age of medical science, believe that homosexuality is a choice, like taking a notion to dye your hair red or get a tattoo?

Having friends who are gay and knowing of the agony of being "separate" from other children when growing up and being treated differently, or patronisingly by adults when in their teens, this shocks me.

Aid to Uganda should cease without delay and their diplomatic missions, in civilised countries, should be closed forthwith and their diplomats expelled.

This is no different from dishing out the death penalty to people born with blue eyes or a bad limp.

I am shocked that we are supporting such a regime.

Richard of Moscow

This from Mark Steyn raised a titter:

"Meanwhile, the Lockerbie bomber has been appearing at delirious pro-Gadhafi rallies. Remember the Lockerbie bomber? He was returned to Libya because he was terminally ill and only had three months to live. That was two years ago. It's amazing what getting out of the care of the Scottish National Health Service can do for your life expectancy."

ttp://articles.ocregister.com/2011-07-29/news/29834219_1_planet-cbo-spending-freeze

Peter From Maidstone

Verity, Uganda does not have the death penalty for homosexual behaviour.

Verity

Where did The Mail on Line's subs go to school? Uganda? England? Get this little gem on the front page today. Writing about a house that was demolished illegally: "the entire house, which dates back to 1845, was raised to the ground without planning permission."

Paging all subs ... there should be a job opening coming up at The Mail.

While I'm at it, could subs everywhere study really hard to understand the difference between "careered" and "careened", please. In fact, if they consult a dictionary, they will learn to their dismay that "careered" is not even a word.

Kennybhoy

Anne Wotana Kaye 1.

I see that Christopher Jeffries has won substantial damages from eight "newspapers".

Some recompense I suppose but no justice. The bastards belong behind bars.

Augustus

Verity - Gay marriage is now legal in New York. But I rather pity the single women in Manhattan, don’t you think? Now all the good men are married and gay. The first same-sex couple to tie the knot in New York City were 76 and 84 years old. Good for them
I say.

Kennybhoy

Oh and Fearty!

"In fact, if they consult a dictionary, they will learn to their dismay that "careered" is not even a word."

Aye it is. lol

David Ossitt

Verity.

“"careered" and "careened"”

Hello Verity it is in my dictionary.

Careen. Walk as if unable to control one's movements.
Careened. The ship careened out of control.

Careered. Move headlong at high speed. "The cars careered down the road"; "The mob careered through the streets"

John Ball

Frank Sutton
July 30th, 2011 8:44pm

Perhaps examples from Uganda and Ireland have diverted attention from the main point that the Church, possibly the organisation rather than christianity, is not a repository of compassion and rectitude.

We have lived through the Crusades and witnessed the Inquisition. I think Pope Gregory 7th preached "justified violence" and many western armies have commonly gone into battle after the Bishops blessed the campaigns. Latterly we have seen Northern Irish priests apparently condoning the most heinous of personal crimes

Perhaps I am saying that like AJ Ayer we should subscribe to igtheism.

David Ossitt

“Boots hung up-sabbatical-Its all yours”

Has The Wall been deloused?

Are we now liberated from the attentions of ‘a smut leech’?

Will the regulars return?

Kennybhoy

Occasional Ostrich on July 30th, 2011 8:14pm wrote of Telemachus:

"I do wish Penelope would pull her brat into line..."

I was under the impression that he had named himself for the C5th Saint Telemachus? That he sees himself as a superior, civilized soul risking martyrdom to put a stop to the metaphorical carnage hereabouts! lol

Verity

Peter from Maidstone - hmmmmmm .... John Ball, 1:01, says it does. Odd, that.

David Ossitt - Which dictionary? This could be another case of the dictionaries just giving in to illiteracies.

daniel maris

David Ossit,

So Saudi Arabia is a more civilised society because it would have the murderer in the case you cited executed?

The passions of youth are strange. Some people go terribly wrong and do themselves or others damage. I am not sure executing 16 year olds helps a great deal. Encouraging responsible parenting does. Did this young lad have any effective guidance?

Kennybhoy

Verity efforts on July 31st, 2011 4:39pm and , albeit repeating another’s errors, July 31st, 2011 4:21pm.

Key words, Verity: Research, research, research!

rotflol

Kennybhoy

David Ossitt on July 31st, 2011 5:54pm wrote:

"Has The Wall been deloused?"

I can dish it out with the best and worst hereabouts, but I would consider it a significant favour if you were to refrain from resort to this particular imagery...

Verity

John Ball says "We have lived through the Crusades", but the Crusades were a crusade to stop islamic aggression into civilised, Christian Europe. It was not aggression, but defence, on our part.

And still is.

Verity

Kennbhoy - You're another one, my eyes, unbidden, slide past. Anything addressed to me by you or Telemullah are not read.

Life's too short to read provincial blethers.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Kennybhoy
July 31st, 2011 5:05pm

Report this comment

Anne Wotana Kaye 1.

I see that Christopher Jeffries has won substantial damages from eight "newspapers".

Some recompense I suppose but no justice. The bastards belong behind bars.

=========================
You are so right. The poor man was made out to be a cross between Lector Hannibal and Jack the Ripper. Lesson to learn: You can have tattoos, but don't have a blue hair rinse!

charles hercock

Kennybhoy
July 31st, 2011 5:55pm

Whatever

Looks like we stoned him to death anyway

David Ossitt

Verity.

My pocket Oxford = move swiftly in an uncontrolled way.

But better still. Speed: "My hasting days fly on with full career" (John Milton,1608 – 1674).

Kennybhoy

Verity on July 31st, 2011 5:56pm

"Peter from Maidstone - hmmmmmm .... John Ball, 1:01, says it does. Odd, that."

So THERE! That's us telt! rotflol

She continues:

"Which dictionary? This could be another case of the dictionaries just giving in to illiteracies."

Only if they have been doing so for centuries you clot! The earliest recorded use dates from 1647!

Research, research, research Fearty!

David Ossitt

Kennybhoy
“I can dish it out with the best and worst hereabouts, but I would consider it a significant favour if you were to refrain from resort to this particular imagery...”

What have I said?

Kennybhoy

Verity on July 31st, 2011 7:07pm makes it a hat-trick and fails History as weel as Current Affairs and English! lol

Oh and she writes:

"John Ball says..."

But I thoct' Maister B was your font of all wisdom? lol

David Ossitt

daniel maris

“So Saudi Arabia is a more civilised society because it would have the murderer in the case you cited executed?”

Of course not, I would prefer a system more on the lines of Singapore a very civilised community.

As to your, “Did this young lad have any effective guidance?”

By all accounts he did, good home good church, academically bright but then so had Adolph, this young man is evil, pure and simple.

But then the new perceived wisdom says it has to be someone else’s or some other things fault, I do not believe this, I believe in good and bad, and this young man is bad.

Kennybhoy

David Ossitt.

"Deloused" conjures up foul and unholy images from C20th history. Such dehumanizing imagery demeans us all...

Kennybhoy

Pete Hoskin!

That's three of us (yours truly, P from M and telemachus) who have commented on the deafening silence surrounding the Utoya Massacre in these pages...?

Kennybhoy

telemachus on July 30th, 2011 6:41am on police corruption...

Mining old editions of "Socialist Worker" for material now Maister Troll? lol

Oh and it was not Paul Condon who coined the phrase "noble cause corruption", it was Edwin J DeLattre in his book "Character and Cops: Ethics in Policing".

daniel maris

David Ossitt -

Yes, I had to say I had a wry smile when I saw he came from a "Church going" family. Peter Hitchens please note... But of course one would still have to know what kind of family.

Anyway, certainly if you did examine the lives of most people who commit serious crimes you will find a far from fun-filled childhood.

There's no doubt the boy is bad. It's not
as if you are alone in thinking that. Apart from a few extreme libertarians or existentialists, no one is going to say he is not bad. But it's where you go with that. Are you saying God made him bad? Or that his badness is a result of random chances? It seems to me a perfectly reasonable proposition to accept his badness may result from physical or social causes. Perhaps he was dropped on his head or had a bad fever as a child. Perhaps he has an undiagnosed brain tumour affecting his behaviour. Perhaps he has inherited his badness in DNA code. Perhaps his badness was incubated by social factors.

Whatever, the moral choice of what you do now isn't dictated by his badness.

As for Singapore, it's hardly the most interesting place on Earth. I'd hate to live in a society where badness had been eliminated. Burgess reminded us in Clockwork Orange that with liberty comes evil.

David Ossitt

daniel maris
“Are you saying God made him bad?”

No most decidedly not, God gave him free will, this young man used his free will by choosing, nay planning to kill this innocent, an innocent who loved and trusted him.

He revelled and boasted to others before and after.

You write “As for Singapore, it's hardly the most interesting place on Earth.”

It is clean, orderly, in the main law abiding, one can walk the streets without fear, the people are happy and the food is wonderful and they hang murderers.

daniel maris

David Ossitt -

You're still left with a philosophical puzzle as to why some people choose eviland others good.

Part of the problem here seems to have been that the guy was part of a group that engaged in fantasy discussions, and kind of fed his plan (unwittingly it would seem). He might equally have had a set of friends among whom someone might have told him his comments were out of line,that he needed therapy and that the girl was going to be warned about his dark fantasies.

I agree free will exists and is ultimately the arbiter of what we do, but it is absurd to pretend that free will is exercised in a vacuum - it is not.

We might say prostitution is a bad lifestyle choice - certainly the vast majority of women avoid it. But surely you would recognise that a woman brought up by a prostitute and with a pimp for a father is far more likely to choose to become a prostitute.

Verity

David Ossitt - Not only do they hang murderers (on Friday mornings) in S'pore, but they give other criminals the rotan.

The rotan is about 8 ft long and very flexible. The malfeasant has pads strapped around his kidney area as one lash could burst them.

The lashee is strapped down on his stomach and the man wielding the rotan stands well back to bring it down with full effect. Normally, two or three lashes is all anyone can take. They are unstrapped and taken to the prison hospital to recover, after which, they will get the kidney pads strapped back on and receive another two lashes. You can imagine how they look forward to it!

Re-offending in Singapore is very rare. Drug dealers and murderers are, of course hanged.

The result is an orderly, pleasant and industrious society. I didn't think it was boring at all. I loved it.

Dick Barton

Journalism is still alive and living in China.

"A Letter to Yiyi: Chinese Newspaper’s Defiant Commentary on Train Collision"

*ttp://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/07/31/a-letter-to-yiyi-chinese-newspapers-defiant-commentary-on-train-collision/

Nicholas

Sunday apparently wasn't Awards Day after all.

EC

From Damian Thompson's excellent Telegraph blog (h/t Verity) mentioned above.

"These trolls aren’t confined to the far Left or the far Right: some of the most noxious internet bores turn out to be Liberal Democrats."

In-house trolls please take note!!!

Thucydides

I thought that Verity had gone clean off her rocker - claiming that perfectly normal words didn't exist, and that the Crusades were defensive operations. But then she speaks in loving tones of the effects of the rotan, and all is well with the world.

Frank P

Testing: (trying to find what has blocked m,y last post) Glenn Mulcaire

Frank P

Well it wasn't that, so WTF was it Pete?