Tackling the far right

Peter From Maidstone

Why are EDL marches heinous? It really is getting to the point where I don't know why I visit the Spectator site when things like this are written.

cuffleyburgers

Frazer - I hold no brief for the EDL, however I do not agree with your rather balse condemnation of them, effectively, as racist thugs.

Furthermore I wholly disapprove of your use fo the term Far-right to signal "beyond the pale".

I am proud to consider myself far right (ie totally opposed to BBC and grauniad/hampstead heath values) and my core beliefs are as follows:
* self reliance
* loath government intervention
* individual freedom

I have never contemplating beating anybody up for their beliefs (except occasionally MPs, in which case my reaction would be justified as a desire to defend my property from their looting) or their skin colour.

So frazer: wake up, think out of the bubble and stop parotting the bbc line.

Derek Pasquill

White, middle-aged metro-liberal rubbishes representatives of the ordinary working class.

The metro-liberals are running scared and this is the only conclusion to draw from this piece of rubbish journalism.

TGF UKIP

We can always rely on Fraser Nelson and his Speccie to provide an authentic voice for liberal, "progressive" London.

Ahmed Khan

I cannot understand why we are trying to stifle freedom of speech. Most sane people in the UK do not like or support the views of the far right and to ban them in any way would against my democratic beliefs.

No organization, no matter how vile their views should not be banned as long as they behave legally.

If we do start banning people for their views, where do we draw the line. I find the views of many on CoffeeHouse unacceptable and I guess people don’t like my views, therefore would it be correct to shut the CH?

As long as views are not illegal, banning them is an insult to our democracy and is, in my view the first step into slipping to a police state. Not Acceptable.

Phil Chuds

The EDL protest peacefully (or would until provoked by the other lot) . The anti facist mob go with the intention of causing trouble . So in your world , if the EDL is heinous , what do you think of the anti facist brigade ?

Clear Memories

The ongoing and vile objection to free speech, the right to free association and the insidious dismantling of democracy and personal freedoms by the soft left sickens me.

I have no particular view on the EDL or the SDL - I have a much stronger view on those who oppose them. I take the view that there is nothing to choose between the extreme left and the extreme right; there is nothing to choose between Griffin and Livinstone - they're both up there with Adolf in their deliberate ignorance of those bits of history that don't suit them.

Jitters

Cameron supports the UAF, just a left-wing variant. Maybe he should consider both sides of the spectrum.

oldtimer

It may not count as racial tension but Scotland does have its problems with people from foreign parts. Two examples from personal knowledge.

My younger son, when at Edinburgh University some years ago, after his car (with English number plates) was broken into, was advised by a Scottish student friend to put a "Support Scottish Independence" sticker on in the window of the car to prevent this re-occurring.

Then last year a German tourist (that same son`s father-in-law) had his car, with German number plates, scored with the word "Nazi". This also occurred in Edinburgh.

Makes you think twice about touring Scotland.

Ralph

Authoritarian regimes ban the marches of political groups that they don't like.

Jez

I understand your opinion Fraser. It is most probably from the good upringing you recieved through opportunities that people around you worked very hard to deliver.

There is a problem here though and the main 'Oxygen' that is feeding this beast is this;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece

"A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences."

That's from 2007!

Also names like Charlene Downes have been swept under the carpet.

It is time that you and your colleagues in the relevant publications (probably not here as much) took responsibility and hit these outrages from this one community towards another *head on*!

No more double standards, no more demonising one community and pandering around another due to political correctness.

This is a fact. The Muslim Community in Britain is going nowhere. It won't go back to Pakistan or Bangladesh so it must behave on the terms we do.

Sharia is a demeaning, oppressive tool to subvert women and is rife in Tower Hamlets... so much so that women in that community are trying like hell to get into the secular courts running parrallel just to get a fair hearing.

Your industry's seemingly utter contempt for the White working class this last 3 decades have created an political underclass that now see the only way forward is to make a nuisance of themselves (at tens of thousands of pounds of expense to the tax-payer) and maybe cause a riot somewhere down the line.

Pretend they're Black, Asian, Jewish, Chinese etc and the groomings were allegedly being commited by a small hostile and un-assimilated white community.

Different then isn't it?

IDS can wrap the firm and fair approach he's taking to save our society around the grooming scandal too(and the other issues- Sharia for instance).

That's if you lot have the stomach to do the right thing for once, that is.

Dennis Churchill

I think it might be the “English” part of the English Defence League that causes offense.
Why is any suggestion of English nationalism so unacceptable by the political class but Scots, Welsh and Irish rather trendy?
Anglophobia seems the only acceptable form of ethnic hatred .The English working class ,or Chavs as they are referred to no doubt in the trendier parts of north London ,have gone from being portrayed in the media as the Salt of the Earth to the Scum of the Earth.
As for Question Time and the BNP, hardly the BBC’s unbiased best was it? The Hereditary Dimbleby allowed it to be so unbalanced as to be a joke---all against one!

Chris

The EDL marches are heinous because they involve a small group of nazi thugs threatening the population.

wrinkled weasel

My guess is that the decision is less about freedom of speech than an eye in the direction of the revenue from tourism in the Capital. To describe those who service the tourist industry in Edinburgh as venal is an understatement.

No, Fraser, your premise is wrong. I am sure the first criterion for this kind of thing is "will it squeeze a few more Euros out of the unsuspecting hoardes or will it damage the revenue stream". Personally, I would prefer to walk along Princes Street without being force-fed flyers and asked to sign up to dodgy charity schemes. Watching the spectacle of a few racist nutters walking about in unison is as a mere trifle in the index of inconvenience.

Derek

Peter From Maidstone

Don't expect Mr. Nelson to explain himself.

Ahmed Khan

I cannot understand why we are trying to stifle freedom of speech. Most sane people in the UK do not like or support the views of the far right and to ban them in any way would against my democratic beliefs.

No organization, no matter how vile their views should not be banned as long as they behave legally.

If we do start banning people for their views, where do we draw the line. I find the views of many on CoffeeHouse unacceptable and I guess people don’t like my views, therefore would it be correct to shut the CH?

As long as views are not illegal, banning them is an insult to our democracy and is, in my view the first step into slipping to a police state. Not Acceptable.

Boudicca

The EDL have as much right to march as any other organisation - providing they don't break the law.

Scotland may or may not be a racist country, but then they haven't been invaded by millions of 3rd world immigrants like England. Scotland does, however, go in for a nasty form of sectarianism and is somewhat racist when it comes to the English.

dirtbox

Why is the EDL vilified at every turn yet other single focus groups tolerated and even encouraged by the authorities - be they Jewish groups, Palestinian groups, the vast assortment of Muslim pressure groups and the assorted freak minorities (lesbian, homosexuals, vegan eaters etc) ?

John Norwich

Along with Peter from Maidstone ,i find it incredible that someone else should jump on the 'give the EDL a good kicking ' bus including soundbite Cameron,i would have thought for starters the appalling attempted hijacking of the vigil in Tottenham by the SWP was worth for more attention ,i could go on MAC etc ,please....

Sean

I disagree about Nick Griffin and Question time. What a lot of people saw was a middle-aged man hounded by a mouth frothing audience, heckled and bullied at every turn. I am sure that the BNP gained more votes than it lost with the program.

At the end of the day, an organisation is either legal or it is not. If it is legal then it has just as much right to protest, whether it is politically correct or not.

When the subject of a march is taken into account on whether it should take place or not, where does the censorship stop?

2trueblue

Why should they be kept in the dark? Lets see them for what they are. What we need to do is get rid of the human rights thing.

denis cooper

Exactly the question I was going to ask, Peter From Maidstone.

Is it 'cos they're English, and they've formed a league to defend the English?

We had an EDL march here in this town. Huge fuss and near-hysterical warnings of dire trouble from the local paper, and in anticipation shops shut their doors and pubs said they would refuse to serve them; local Muslims whined about it and organised a counter-demonstration, many of them wearing masks and from the pictures published with a few of the non-Muslim UAF thuggish types mixed in with them; but there was the reassurance of a heavy police presence, etc etc etc; and in the event nothing untoward happened except that the shops which had shut on that advice lost business and their customers were unnecessarily inconvenienced.

It's an absolute disgrace that politicians such as Cameron support the UAF, which is more often that not responsible for instigating any disorder but which until quite recently seemed to have been given official approval and a carte blanche to suppress freedom of speech by violent means.

I'm glad to see that over the last couple of years the police have at last decided to act with something like proper impartiality and have started to crack down on them, and it even seems more UAF thugs are being arrested and charged than EDL members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_Against_Fascism

So how about condemnation of the "heinous" UAF, Fraser?

Or are you happy with thuggery if it accords with your own political prejudices?

Roger Angove

"The BNP thrives on the idea of being the voice of the people, gagged by the politically-correct elite."

It often strikes me that there is some validity on this claim.

Publius

"the politically-correct elite"

What do the EDL stand for, Mr Nelson? What do they want? I don't know. Do you?

Until I know that, I can't really tell whether I should be opposed to them.

Julian

Perhaps Fraser is able to provide us with a list of opinions which it is now considered legitimate to hold?

Jack R

Yes, let's conflate: EDL=BNP=blowing up letter boxes.

Ban David Starkey too?

Reconstruct

Why are the EDL marches heinous? And why do you conflate them with the BNP?

From their website mission statement:
"The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure. Although these actions were certainly those of a minority, we believe that they reflect other forms of religiously-inspired intolerance and barbarity that are thriving amongst certain sections of the Muslim population in Britain: including, but not limited to, the denigration and oppression of women, the molestation of young children, the committing of so-called honour killings, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and continued support for those responsible for terrorist atrocities."

Are they wrong in their assumptions? Do we deny the homophobia, anti-Semitism, oppression of women etc that appear essential to some fairly visible expressions of Islam? Do we condone it? Or do we condemn it, and stand up for values which are hard-won and valuable - such as tolerance of (or not-giving-a-damn-about) homosexuality, gender-equality, purging our society of anti-Semitism etc.

And, not least among the civic values which need defending - the right of free speech?

So remind me again, why are the EDL marches 'heinous'. Justify yourself, Mr Nelson.

valerie cranham

What a fine example of facism disguised as democracy! - I gather you believe freedom of speech is only reserved for those who agree with your views.
Are you not concerned that it might be your views that "perish in the sunlight" or that you could enter "the black hole of ridicule" with such a sweeping and smug condemnation of others?

Perry, - Hard, Romantic, Heartless

I had always considered the Highland Scot to be a free spirit, fiercely independent and self-sufficient, used to weathering storms.

If the EDL or whatever it is called north of the border wishes to pursue or encourage those aims, then fine.

While many what I term – possibly incorrectly - lowland Scots undoubtedly share those same sentiments and traits, I regret my regard for them is tainted by unpleasant memories of the sight and sounds of ‘Gorbals Mick’, and various rabble-rousing Union toughs.

Julian F

Looks like received opinion to me. I thought Spectator writers were meant to think for themselves.

Nicholas

'Committee convener councillor Rob Munn said: "The council holds dear the values of freedom of speech, of the right to assemble and march, and we would go to great lengths to protect those rights."' but in this case they didn't.

I wonder if a far-left march had threatened a "potential impact on public safety, public order and possible disruption to the life of the community" they would have dared to make the same decision? Somehow I doubt it.

58% of Edinburgh councillors are from left-leaning parties and 20% from the Scottish Nationalist Party which despite its name is not a far-right or even right of centre organisation. That leaves just under 19% of Conservative councillors to represent the right.

In view of this, demonstrating that this decision is independent of any political ideology, especially given the stated police position, is hardly credible.

One can and should be able to support the right of free expression without it being misinterpreted as condoning or supporting the political views that free expression represents. This principle seems to be lost in the modern politicians hasty and somewhat hysterical desire to publicly proclaim their anti-fascist and anti-racist credentials. By judging a political viewpoint "crackpot" and considering whether its expression should be suppressed is to step closer to the fascism the marchers allegedly represent.

The Edinburgh authority and Scottish Nationalist message that these people are unwelcome to express their views is discriminatory, undemocratic and unrepresentative (bearing in mind the "crackpots" are also Scottish citizens). It conflates not liking what they have to say with a supposed right to suppress it. Once a government decides who has the right to speak out or not to speak out the writing is on the wall.

Shame on Scotland.

John Richardson

Peter from Maidstone.

Hi.

The above is a good example of why people like me despise Mr Fraser Nelson.
We have always distrusted his ilk; but Neather* was the 'smoking gun'.
That was 2/3 years ago now wasn't it?

Anyhow, remember what you surly figured out years ago; with the likes of Mr Nelson, honest rational debate or argument is an anathma.

Skip the lies & dishonesty and just scroll down to the comments.

Anything else proves unhealthy.

Cheers mate.

* An example of Fraser Nelson revealing his intellectual cowardice and personal dishonesty.

Frank P

I think we already understand that you, your MD and your employers only really acknowledge the English by coming to their country and exploiting them, but why is it 'heinous' for the English to demonstrate in defence of England, Fraser?

I have seen nothing that links the EDM with the BNP - are they linked? Further and better particulars, please.

Being a Scotsman entitles you to criticise Scottish Nationalists as you wish, I suppose, and I have no wish to fight their corner.

But the appearance on Newsnight a few weeks ago, of the EDL leader, when Paxo got truly stuffed by him when the imperious pompous prick failed to produce any back-up for his sneering assertions about EDL links with the Norwegian nutter, indicates that far from from 'dying from lack of oxygen' their message may gain traction in the months ahead. Not least because twats like you feel it necessary to ridicule the English in their own country. Are you trying to impose MacDhimmitude here by any chance?

I think Burns was actually referring to the Scots when he said,

"Oh, that God the gift would give us
To see oursen as others see us."

I tend to agree with him.

Frank P

Oh, I forgot for a moment, you want to create controversy, to 'up the hits' and increase the circulation, right?

Tom Gallagher

I suspect that the firm line being adopted by the authorities towards a Scottish version of the EDL hardly stems from greater social tolerance in Scotland.
David Starkey helpfully pointed out the following in the Telegraph today:
'Scotland, Alex Salmond says smugly is a "different culture".
It is indeed, since the Scots are allowed and even encouraged - to be as racist as they please and hate the English with glad abandon'.

For the hatred to become the norm, other antagonisms need to be proscribed by the authorities whether it be the militant British First one from the EDL or else intra-religious ones, (hence the legislation being pushed through the Edinburgh parliament to impose draconian penalties for communciating sectarian thoughts).

Many will have noticed the barely-disguised satisfaction Salmond derived from the disorders in parts of England, his public statement displaying no sense of standing alongside neighbours in their difficulty.

The ruling Scottish Nationalists hope to instill their own 'rebellious culture' among Scottish youth through influencing the way that the education system and the media interpret relations with their sothern neighbour and 304-year state partner.
I pointed out the dangers of promoting such ethnic anatagonism in a recent book on Scottish Nationalism which the Spectator of course spurned: as well as ascending the greasy poll in elite London, Fraser needs to still keep lines of communications in good order with the Nationalist establishment in Scotland. He can be expected to produce misleading articles like this one on Scottish conditions though it his euphemistic noises about the gravity of the social crisis in England which do the real damage, making the Spectator sometimes unreognisable as an expression of conservative argument and thought.

strapworld

Heinous? If that is your description of The English Defence League what is your word for the Muslims who parade their disgusting placards against British Troops causing much distress to ordinary British people, Mr nelson.

I really worry about your double standards. You promised, but never delivered, a critique on immigration policy following the Neather revelations during the Brown disaster years. Now you come up with this unbelievable nonsense about a small protest group.

The problem we have, rightly identified by David Starkey in his article in The Daily Telegraph today, is that "the subject of race has become unmentionable by whites at any rate".

He, again correctly states, "If all the people of this country, Black and White alike, are to enter fully into our national story, We must be free to comment on problems in the black community as Black are to point the finger at whites,which they do freqently,often with justice, and with impunity"

Fraser Nelson failed to enter that debate at the time it was needed and he should hang his head in shame.

Frank Sutton

Perhaps you could enlighten your English readers by telling us what the SDL stand for. Apart from the suggestion in the picture that they don't like burqas, we're left with an insinuation of racial tension and their description, in the linked Press Association piece, as "far right" - a term which is coming to mean nothing much apart from "I don't like them".

Span Ows

Fraser, "heinous", really?

Nicholas

"The EDL marches are heinous because they involve a small group of nazi thugs threatening the population."

Well, from 1997 to 2010 we had a large group of nazi thugs threatening the population in the form of New Labour, and not just threatening it but actually doing harm to it by pursuing a policy of forcing immigration on the indigenous people without their consent for party political purposes. Heinous too, right?

Ahmed Khan

Once the UK officially becomes the Islamic Republic of Britain, The EDL & SDL will play a very important role to maintain Britain's Islamicness!!

Biggestaspidistra

Heinous, Fraser? They seem like a fairly patriotic rabble, probably the same lads fighting our wars. I heard only praise for the Sikhs, Turks and Muslims recently when they took to the streets in a similar demonstration of community unity.

Starkey sums you up best: "Elites are not politically correct; they’re politically petrified."

james

I'm cancelling my subscription to your 'heinous' mag, pathetic.

Peter From Maidstone

I wonder what sort of comments from a Scot about a legal English organisation would eventually amount to racism? Indeed since my understanding is that racism is now to be defined by those who are offended by a comment and think it racist let me say..

I think that Fraser's and the Spectator's frequent comments about the EDL are racist towards English people and therefore criminal because they are written with the intent of causing offence to English people as a community.

If he wrote the same things about a Black community he would be arrested. As a Scot he thinks he can insult his English readers with impunity. The EDL is not far-right. And being English is not a social disease.

Fex Urbis

Good to see the coffee house pond life out in force. Are you all sitting comfortably as you write your nazi-apologist drivel from the comfort of your bath chairs.

valerie cranham

In true democracy, freedom of speech is a right guaranteed to all. In Fasco-democracy (my term) freedom of speech is a privilege
afforded to a few who wish to impose their will on others.

Richard of Moscow

Fraser, the EDL have members who are black, half black, three-quarters black, plus Indians and others. All without launching an embarrassing 'affirmative action' policy.

They are not fans of Islam, I grant you, so the nastiest charge you can honestly level at them is one of sectarianism.

Of course, that would involve you having to concede that they are nowhere near as sectarian as a lot of the filth which regularly disgraces Scotland.

I realise the EDL's unpalatable connections with the working class make your educationally-subnormal chums in the chattering classes feel queasy, but that does not excuse outright dishonesty.

Does the mass murder of blacks by NATO's allies in Libya upset your PC chum? No, because it is your PC chums who are the racist scum.

TGF UKIP

We should all remember that in the lexicon of the multicutural, multinational, third world metropolis which Never Neather and the rest of his clique represent, nationalism = racism, unless of course it's non-British nationalism.

Nicholas

"Good to see the coffee house pond life out in force. Are you all sitting comfortably as you write your nazi-apologist drivel from the comfort of your bath chairs."

That is a silly post. No-one is apologising for nazis but rather expressing concern about the would-be nazis who want to suppress freedom of expression. As for the bath chairs an offensively ageist remark which suggests that you are young and arrogant, as well as silly. It is people like you who create the hatred - take a chill pill and go and watch Big Brother or text some friends.

Dennis Churchill

TGF UKIP
August 20th, 2011 1:47pm
Or non-English.

John Bowman

But OK to have Far Left SNP - racist, at least towards Anglo-Saxons, chauvinist,separatist?

Of course they are in power and extremes in power hate other extremes... ot's like looking in a mirror.

BNP is Far Left by the so should be right up the SNP's street.

BNP, not Far Left? Modelled on National Socialism - the clue is in the name.

Fex Urbis

@Nicholas

I look forward to seeing you out on the streets defending your rights with your football hooligan friends in the EDL.

In2minds

I've got a feeling that like Neathergate heinous is a word we never see again on this website!

rex

What a nasty, empty article. You read like some leftie troll ranting at the bottom of a Telegraph article, Mr Nelson. Aren't you going to answer some of the very reasonable questions posed here?

DavidDP

The lovely EDL:

http://hurryupharry.org/category/edl/

Nicholas

@ the fascist hiding behind the ridiculous "Fex Urbis" (scum of the city, law of the world) pseudonym:-

Well, you'll be disappointed. I don't have any friends in the EDL, football hooligan or otherwise and I tend to keep off the streets altogether since New Labour "progressed" them with the blessings of "vibrant multicultural diversity". Difficult to get around them in a bathchair anyway.

I'll leave that to you and the other silly "anti-fascists" who can't demonstrate any rational thought processes. LOL.

strapworld

Peter from Maidstone, I think you will find that Fraser Nelson was born in the West Country of our beloved England!

Chris

"Good to see the coffee house pond life out in force. Are you all sitting comfortably as you write your nazi-apologist drivel from the comfort of your bath chairs."

Great post! Beating the nazis was this countries proudest moment. It's utterly disgusting for the likes of the EDL and their defenders to smear the word English with their activities.

Frank P

Strapworld

Perhaps his ma was on holiday in Cornwall when she pupped. Perhaps she wanted him to have triple nationality.

Anyway, he's a bit shy in his Wiki entry and everywhere else come to that, but there does not seem to be much of the Cornishman about Fraser.

If it walks like a Scotsman, quacks like a Scotsman, was reared in Nairn and Dollar Acadamies then 'finished' at Glasgae Uni - then writes articles like this one, it's a duck. And deserves duck egg all over its face!

Matt

I am sure the Sikhs -for example- who are members of the EDL will be very interested in your comments about the EDL.

Nicholas

Chris your first post was heinous, your second just confirms that you are a bit of a prat.

Commondog

Fex Urbis

I'm puzzled as to how you might recognise Nicholas if you were to see him 'out on the streets with [his] football hooligan friends'?

Baron

Chris, your equating the EDL with the Nazis stinks, it’s pure labelling without any substantive argument backing it, when you have a minute enlighten the poorly educated Slav, who tasted both the Nazis, their ideological opposite, the Red Menace, why should one view the Nazis, the EDL as being the same, you reckon the EDL is about to invade Poland or what?

Baron

Fraser, your views are the property of nobody but you, you’re welcome to them, what amazes Baron is the sheer blindness of history on your part, no regime ever has been able to suppress views that resonated with the great unwashed, if luck holds, you, we may be able to get away with it, if things were to turn badly, your school of though may end up on the scrapheap in no time at all.

is your turning so painfully PC a kind of repentance for the recent past of yours, you know, Murdoch and stuff? If it is, you’re making a mistake, sir, the PC brigade has long memories, they’ll haunt you anyway, you’ll see.

Baron

and another thing, Fraser, is the picture accompanying your piece, the ‘Ban the Burkha’ poster, a part of the Right-wing ideology of those you so hate? Baron ain’t in favour of banning either the burkha or the hood, but Sarkozy’s France did the former, are you going to rant about the French, if not, why not, ha?

Peter A

Yesterday was the first friday (aside from strikes and miss-posting) for 15 years that the Spectator did not drop through my letter box.That is because I finally caught on that the magazine no longer contributes constructively to conservative thinking in the way that it once did.Further this sort of drivel from Mr.Nelson and,of course,the moving on of Melanie Phillips to her own blog makes visiting this site all but pointless.Sad but true.

London Calling

Oh dear Fraser…
Is it time to brush limestone in my hair, cover myself in wode and guard Westminster?…

The Woman’s are coming, The Woman’s are coming…

EDL Angels to March on Parliament
(EDL official Website)
After Prime Minister David Cameron’s speech last week to parliament in which he described the English Defence League as being ‘sick’ and that ‘there were none sicker’, the EDL Angels have decided to march to the Houses of Parliament to express their anger and dismay at his statements.

On the 8th of October, they intend to show David Cameron and the others in the House of Commons who mumbled their agreement, that the EDL are not ‘sick’.

The EDL Angels are normal, law-abiding, housewives, mothers and concerned voters. EDL Angels are seriously worried about the rise of extremist Islam and Islamism in the United Kingdom. EDL Angels feel strongly that the gender apartheid practiced within Islam keeps many Muslim women as the chattel of their men and British society should help to free these oppressed women in our midsts.
They want the government to give issues such as:
• Muslim pedophile gangs;
• Sharia Law zones in our cities;
• and the frightening level of inter-familial murder in Muslim communities
the serious attention they deserve.
It is completely unacceptable to brand all who are concerned with these issues as racists, islamophobes or ‘sick’.

Kennybhoy

Reduced to trolling your own magazine's blog now Maister Nelson?

Peter From Maidstone

strapworld, Fraser's father was a member of the RAF from Glasgow. I imagine that Fraser was born in the South-West when his father was serving there, and that he returned to his native Scotland with his family where he then attended Scottish schools and a Scottish University.

Hangmansknotinn

They are only as heinous as those orchestrated by the thugs, liars and extremists of the Unite Against Fascism camp.

The EDL operate legally, and proclaim themselves not at all racist. So what's all the bloody hoo-ha?

steveal

"heinous"?

Why don't you list all the atrocities committed by the heinous EDL?
Or do they not fit in with your liberal views?
How about the 'heinous' left wing Scots who have brought our country to its current pathetic state?

JT Scopes

So, as the result of a change of view, Fraser Nelson advises of a mild and nuanced disagreement to the banning of a march by a legitimate political party, by the Scottish Parliament.

So we can be grateful that, in its role a guardian of democratic principles, the Spectator is in safe hands.

Frank P

where have you been hiding Kwnnybhoy?

Archibald

I agree with your Fraser, they should be given the oxygen of publicity. But if you're going to support free speech, you can't really do that from a footing of already discounting what they have to say.

These groups tend to emerge when the mainstream fails to deal with real or perceived issues. To properly see them off, the issues they raise need to be properly addressed - there may be a portion of truth in what they have to say. Much as the inner city youth feels let down by society for reasons we all currently speculate on after the riots, there is a similar feeling in many parts of the working classes that can be easily discounted by the state as anger is misguided at immigrants rather than the state. And that's just it - the mainstream keep taking the easy option, as who cares if the poor youth fails, or who cares if the family on benefit is angry about something? They probably won't vote anyway. Well, maybe it's time we started addressing issues rather than just blanket criticizing. It surely makes economic sense in the long run, but also makes for a healthier society. Perhaps the best way for you to respond to some of the 'nut jobs' commenting above is to have some sort of online discussion with an EDL and/or SDL representative? Perhaps best to keep it closed from commenting mind you, given the nature of the topic. (No offence, nut jobs.)

William Jay

A couple of months ago I decided not to renew my subscription to the weekly magazine. I'd become a bit fed up with some of the increasing slide to the Left and decided not paying good money for such views. However, I then received a phone call from a very polite gentleman who talked me through my problems with the magazine and eventually made me a very good offer to renew my subscription again. Against my better judgement I took up his generous offer which did involve paying for a year upfront. He did say if I wasn't satisfied I could always cancel and receive a pro-rata refund.
After reading this rubbish from Mr. Nelson, guess who I will be phoning on Monday morning? I refuse to financially assist in any way this shadow of The Spectator.

Mr Logic

The reason that the EDL is being so ruthlessly suppressed using every arm of government, including the media branches of the Government (such as The Spectator), is because they have a point. The only thing the current political apparatchiks could not handle in this country is a restive English population. Given the appalling fist the apparatchiks have made of governing this country there is now a real chance of the English actually becoming restive. Any signs of this will be stamped upon harder than any other emergent group; it's all logical.

Derek

Fex Urbis

Aptly self-named.

Martin J

God what tedious political-class-othodox shite.

The saddest thing about this limp-wristed nonsense of an article is that his disdain for the SDL is so obviously affected.

He pretends to hate the SDL because he's scared of talking about them in any other way - someone might call him racist if he did - and so he has to wheel out the idiotic "let them perish in the sunlight" line...

It's fair enough to genuinely believe that the SDL are harmful and should be banned, but don't borrow the language of the moronic politically-correct left in order to make that point.

You don't have to affect all-consuming hatred of the SDL, you can talk about these things sensibly, Fraser. Calm down, the "racist" police won't get you, the Labour years are over.

Verity

Never Say Neather promised a report that he then feared to deliver. I see this as cowardice.

I no longer read a word that Never Say Neather writes. Eyes skid, unbidden, down to the next item since the day he scurried away from discussing the Neather Report.

There are few things more repulsive than cowardice and this failure to follow through on his word will haunt him for the rest of his life.

I was going to quote the touching words of Scotland's national poet, but didn't want to sully them.

Verity

Mr Logic, agreed.

Simon Stephenson.

There are some astonishing comments above.

There are a number of associations labelled "far-left" or "far-right" who, far from being diametrically dissimilar, are actually in battle to "sell" their badge to the same group of people - the vast masses whose political views consist of unyielding authoritarianism if it's their gang which is in charge but total anarchy if it's any other gang. "Right" as far as they're concerned is "what best suits me", and if this means changing horses mid-race, then so be it.

The wailing of the spokesmen about freedom of speech, and the right to express their opinions, is disingenuous, to say the least. There's opportunity galore for their opinions to be expressed throughout both the old and the new media. However, freedom of expression, to them, is no more than a Trojan Horse through which they, and they alone, can pursue their real intention. Really, what they're looking for are two things - firstly, an opportunity to hoodwink the exceptionally stupid into believing that they are supporting the certain future winners, and secondly to intimidate, coerce and frighten the marginally more cerebral, by demonstrating the sort of treatment they can expect if they fail to sign up for the cause.

Government restrictions are not about restricting freedom of expression, they're about restricting the right of any group to expand their power through coercion and intimidation. The mass media serves these totalitarian organisations very well by failing to point out the false banners behind which they march.

Simon Fay

"Tackling the far right" ???

How germane and timely is this, given that they seem to have played no part in the violent disorder of the past weeks?

BTW cannot stand your bloody accent, the Loyd Grossman of Scottish voices.

Gordon Norrie

"As Alex Salmond says, there are many colours in the tartan."

This sounds like a typical flippant and fatuous comment from the arch-marxist, Salmond.

I fail to see what the array of colours which appear in tartan weave has to do with mass immigration.

Overall, a pretty silly posting by Mr Nelson.

Dennis Churchill

Have postings been removed from a couple of topic areas?
It would be helpful if something could be put on showing where this happens.

Richard Bayswater

@ cuffleyburgers - Your description of yourself certainly doesn't place you on the far right (unless there's something you're missing out).

In fact many people on "the left", myself included, also have issues with the areas you mention.

I've always thought of "far right" and "far left" as places for people who either lack intelligence or wilfully allow themselves to become extremists for reasons of religion, dogma or insanity.

Most of us are much closer to the middle and have more in common with each other than we'd sometimes like to admit.

EC

Frank P,

"Are you {Frazer] trying to impose MacDhimmitude here by any chance?"

No chance! I think that we all got quite enough of the Scottish Raj that was imposed on us by Bliar-Braun at al, didn't we?

I reckon that Frazer probably bored. He has just celebrated his 2nd anniversary as editor of the Speccie and is probably wondering, "what's next?" His slippery adenoidal drone is instant mogadon and therefore renders him unsuitable for a broadcast job. Perhaps uncle Brillo will be able to get him the main gig back at The Scotchman. But wait... oh no, lordy lord, crikey, wait.... that might actually mean er... living in Scotland.

Nicholas

Oh dear, Simon Stephenson. And I thought you, of all people, could perhaps be relied upon not to arrogantly enhance the legitimacy of your own argument by belittling the opinions of others.

Freedom of expression takes many forms, one of which in this country is to be able to march in peaceful protest or advocation, however minor, eccentric or distasteful is the cause. By assigning unarticulated objectives to such groups and then seeking to suppress them from a self-proclaimed platform of what is to be considered "legitimate" you are rubbing shoulders with the very forces that alarm you.

Allan Massie's article in this week's Spectator - 'The fascist vote' - should appeal to you. He too seeks to ascribe extremist and totalitarian motives to anyone alienated from a certain trendy, bien-pensant viewpoint. A viewpoint which includes an increasing tendency to want to censor and suppress any who dare to express dissent in terms more robust than wishy-washy hand-wringing. Matthew Parris, in the same issue, deploys that tired old cliché, beloved of those who like to control narratives, about shouting fire in a crowded theatre. There are a few predictable references to online nutters as well, that cowardly resort of those who conflate personal opinion with moral certitude and sanity - as Cameron frequently does.

Instead of fretting about the fickle public bloc likely to be harnessed by the Janus-like extremists of the left or right one might be concerned by the infinitely more powerful, controlling and manipulative extremists of the bien-pensant centre-left, who already dictate the narrative, have already harnessed the fickle and now play a cosy but utterly bogus game of competing in sermonising Milliband or Cameron branded soundbites in order to proclaim infinitely more holier credentials than the other. As an arrogant and largely unaccountable elite, this self-serving meld of politician, celebrity and journalist (not necessarily in that order) is far more dangerous to freedom than a few fringe organisations supposedly trying to resurrect the brownshirts. Fraser merely demonstrates the allegiance and the trend.

Chan Koon-chung's 'The Fat Years' might interest you too. China's "benevolent" repression will be the model aspiration for our smug elite as it juggles authoritarianism and anarchy in the years to come.

Rhoda Klapp

I dunno, you take a day at a family do, and come home to find this post. So dying to be skewered, and skewered so comprehensively by all of my commenting colleagues. Well done, cohort! Rhoda has nothing to add, save to wonder whether the editor will ever try to explain himself.

Oh, and Simon, you have the wrong end of the stick on this one. Free speech is only of value when somebody doesn't want you to say it. Free speech so long as it's all right with you chaps is not free speech at all.

Jez

OOF.

Just coming around after a mad 'Mexican Theme' night (see. Diversity in action!)

What happened yesterday then in Scotland?

Did it kick off, did the world stop spinning or did it pass off peacefully?

Dennis Churchill

Nicholas
August 21st, 2011 10:02am
The problem from the political classes’ point of view is it is going to get worse. Multiracial let alone multicultural societies are unstable, where are the examples of success? Our criminal justice system is not fit for its Primary Purpose (reduction of crime) because there is no agreement between the general public and the practitioners on what that Primary Purpose is.
The gathering economic storms and possible re-ordering of the EU also results in there being no money to expand the public sector in order to create employment opportunities for the products of our universities. These people have an expectation of a lifestyle that will be very difficult to achieve outside the public sector unless they have a massive change of attitude.
So what to do?
The old party brands are increasingly seen as meaningless. The electorate can’t be allowed a real alternative, in case they choose it, so these minority parties, at least in England, will need to be suppressed.

Simon Stephenson.

Nicholas 10.02am and Rhoda 10.32am

You both misrepresent me. Free speech, free expression of opinion - fine, no problem, positively and unreservedly support it.

stereodog

What the EDL represents is a sad parody of what made England great. At bottom the EDL and the BNP are a way for people to blame others for their failures.

This is not an issue of right or left wing, every extremeist group represents the same malaise namely that people want to blame their own failure to take control of their lives on immigrants/capitalists/muslims/atheists/the monarchy.

We are in the main responsible for the sucess or failure of our own lives and I would like to provide every EDL/BNP/Socialist Worker member with a copy of Samuel Smiles' 'Self Help'.

Has anyone here ever stopped tot hink why it is that employers prefer employing immigrants to natives? it's because they are grateful for the job and will work harder for less money.

Nicholas

Simon Stephenson - I happily stand corrected but your meaning, unusually, was not clear.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Ahmed Khan
August 20th, 2011 10:21am
I never agree with you, but here I concur 100%. Freedom to speak and write what one believes is a right for anybody.

Simon Fay

Stereodog - please stop doing your business in the house.

Peter From Maidstone

stereodog, I don't disagree with the prescription of Self Help. But in the present circumstances relying on ourselves is not enough. If I live in a town then I might expect to get a job, rent or buy a house etc. But if Government allows unlimited immigration then I might find that all of the jobs are taken by those who are willing to accept half a normal salary, and will live ten to a house. In such a situation I am not convinced that Self Help will help enough. The rules of the game have been changed by a third party whose authority cannot easily be evaded. We are not simply indiviuals, we live in a society that is formed and deformed by the activities of politicians. There cannot be Self Help without some account taken of the nature of the society in which we try to help ourselves.

stereodog

Peter from Maidstone,
Yes that's a fair point, but I do wonder if society in general has succumbed to the kind of cultural entitlement that we observed in the recent riots.
If immigrants are willing to work for half the wage of a native then why do we say that the native has some kind of right to the higher wage?
There is a free market in labour and if we cannot sell ourselves either by virtue of quality or economy so to speak then isn't that our problem?
I don't disagree with your example about housing and for what it's worth I'm against providing benefits to immigrants in most cases. I just think that so much of the 'immigrants stole our jobs' rhetoric is a cover for laziness and a belief that one is entitled to be able to afford the latest gadgets.

Peter From Maidstone

stereodog, I am entirely with you in regard to the benefit and emtitlement culture. But if we are talking about people who might read Self Help I don't think that you are being entirely reasonable. I mean in the sense... I am an immigrant from Somalia where my average income is £50 a year. I live in a small house in Maidstone with 9 other male Somalians. We are willing to work for £6000 a year and have undercut 10 local young men who need to build sustainable family lives in Maidstone. We don't. We send most of the money we earn to Somalia. Even earning £6,000 a year means we live better than anyone in Somalia. We'd be happy to work and live like slaves because even living like that is better than living in Somalia.

Does the young man from Maidstone have a right to a living wage and a job in Maidstone? Well I believe that he does, in comparison to the man from Somalia. And the reason is that this is England and there is an English society here that his family has been part of and has helped build up. The Somalian immigrant has not built up society, and does not wish to. He is just here to earn some money at any level above subsistence.

So the native DOES have a right to a living wage and the Somalian DOES NOT have any right at all to come to the UK and especially not to take a job and a house from a local man.

What are you suggesting? That the local Maidstone man should move in with 12 others and work for £4000? Unless you do not believe in any sort of integrity oof society and culture then there is a need and a right for a society and culture to protect itself. The Somalian subsistence worker is undermining our society.

In such a case Self Help is no help at all.

stereodog

Peter From Maidstone,
Ah now there you have me! Of course you're right as far as your example goes and I was guilty of exaggerating my argument. But if we move out of the world of illegal working practices I'd be interested to know if you stick to your view.

As far as I'm aware Polish plumbers do not charge a pittance for their work (although perhaps they are cheaper than English ones)nor does the nice Hungarian girl who works in my local pub. Generally however they much more grateful for the work and will therefore do it better and more cheerfully.

If you removed all of the immigrants who pack fruit or clean toilets do you seriously believe that there would be queues of unemployed young men clamouring to take their place? It's not like there's some conspiracy to hire Eastern European workers, they turn up and are willing to do the jobs and your man from Maidstone isn't. The jobs may be difficult and pay minimum wage but sometimes that's the first step that needs to be made.

Biggestaspidistra

stereodog, a couple of points. Polish plumbers, Polish plasterers and builders are all much, much cheaper, that's why they are sought after. And the English did line up to pick fruit until well into the 1960's and there are several theories why that changed (cheap foreign labour and welfare being two of them).

Jesse

And gooooooodbye Spectator subscription.

Think before you write Fraser, you will lose a hell of a lot more readers than any possible gain out of this sort of tripe.

Britain, and the West in general needs fearless truth tellers; not the same old tune from the same old dancing monkey.

tony

Oh dear oh dear. You read the Spectator for its thoughtful, indepedent, analysis and you get this third rate, pious slop.... People here are bright enough to see what the EDL stands for, what Big Government stands for, thanks Fraser. From what I've seen, they broadly like to think for themselves ta.

Archibald

Fraser, the video might back up your argument rather well for your choice of word - a moving picture paints a thousand words. But then you could give too much weight to such things. There are some pretty silly views laced with the odd very small bit of truth and the odd bit of misguided anger above, rather than hide behind a video that shows nothing other than angry people who have no other voice, the real way to win the argument is for you to engage with someone from the EDL in the way that you actually advocate in your piece. I don't doubt it is an argument that you'll win, but that is no reason to not stand by your own conviction. I also think it will be useful. Maybe we'll all learn (a little) something.

Elizabeth Walton

Well well. I felt such a sense of utter despair upon reading this journolistic and intellectually challenged twaddle. But my faith in humanity has been restored by most of the commentators.

Archibald

Mr Nelson, further to my other posts on Mr Bright and Mr Massie's views of the EDL, as noone here seems to know what the EDL stand for, I have started the job for you. Here is a link to their mission statement.

http://englishdefenceleague.org/about-us/mission-statement/

Now, I challenge you to dissect and defeat it. It's fairly short as you will see, so it shouldn't take you long. So let's have a proper debate. I have requested the same of Mr Massie and Mr Bright.

(Please don't misunderstand me, I am not an advocate of the EDL by any means, simply an advocate of proper debate.)