What kind of Libyan justice?
Daniel Korski 4:02pm
Tory MP Dominic Raab has a piece in The Times today (£) about the need for Libyans to rely on the International Criminal Court in the Hague, rather than seek
retribution and revenge against Colonel Gaddafi and his loyalists in Libya. A former Foreign Office lawyer, Raab knows his subject well. But I can’t help but quibble with a few of his points.
For the history of the International Criminal Tribunal in Yugoslavia, a precursor to the ICC, raises questions about how societies can best deal with such crimes.
The ICTY allowed space for the post-conflict consolidation to take place before indicting criminals. In contrast, the ICC issued an indictment against Gaddafi very quickly, which left the Libyan dictator little room for manoeuvre. It came right in the end, but the risks were greater. The UN Security Council was right to refer the Libyan case to the ICC, but a smarter Chief Prosecutor might have waited to indict or issued a sealed indictment first.
In other respects, however, the ICTY experience is less than salutary. Its work was slow. Worse, by removing those indicted from the region and conducting the cases in a far-away country, the whole issue of post-war justice was somehow removed from the region and its people. Citizens could not see the court at work, walk past its facilities, and feel it was a real place. As such, it became easier for opponents to paint it as a foreign plot and for normal people to forget about its work. When it ran out of money, it had to develop a strategy of devolving cases back to Bosnia, and local courts were ill-prepared for the court proceedings.
These are important considerations when deciding how far to rely on the ICC in Libya. The ICC is already suffering from being seen as a pro-Western and anti-African vehicle. This is patently an untrue charge, but issues of legitimacy cannot be divorced from justice. Trying Gaddafi there will encourage this narrative.
So what to do? I agree with Raab that trying Gaddafi at the ICC may be the only viable option at this stage, given the nature of the Libyan judicial system. But it would be best if the Libyans decided to deal with all other criminals through a specialised court, where Libyan judges can sit side by side for a limited period with international judges. This will guarantee that justice is meted out to an appropriate standard, while the Libyan justice system is built up for the future.
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Vulture
August 31st, 2011 5:12pm Report this commentKorrekt me if I'm wrong, Mr K, but has a single Arab ruler/despot/tyrant ended up; facing international justice in the Hague?
I think not. The Arabs have their own way of dispensing vengeance. Usually involving ropes.
String em up! It's the only language they understand.
RCE
August 31st, 2011 5:17pm Report this commentSo if I understand correctly, the reason Libya has been supported in gaining its freedom* is so that it can have its sovereignty immediately undermined by the corrupt, self-appointed international ruling class that blights the lives of the rest of us?
*For the sake of argument.
Hard Hearted - but Romantic, Perry
August 31st, 2011 5:37pm Report this commentRetribution and Revenge?
Sounds pretty good to me, - and there's a few more I'd like to see added to the list of UK candidates if ever we get the opportunity, - starting with the paranoid lunatic featured in the bloggery before this one, and following on with the Hero of the H2B, and all the coterie of jobsworths and hangers-on.
So there!
(Don't trust Courts much now - too many namby-pamby yoomun roits looryas and other parts of the industry)
Augustus
August 31st, 2011 5:46pm Report this commentThe inspiration for the Libyan war is was as much anti-Western as it was anti-Gaddafi. The draft constitution of the anti-Gaddafi forces cites "Shariah" as the "principal source of legislation."
Shariah is Islamic law, the basis of conquest or control of non-Muslims, conscience, speech and other Western-style liberties. Not too surprisingly, rebel spokesman Mustafa Abdul Jalil, former Libyan justice minister, sports a zabibah, the forehead bruise of fanatical adherence to Islamic law. He also has animus toward Israel on the brain. And
as appeals court president, Abdul Jalil twice upheld death sentences for five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian medic tortured and unjustly convicted for infecting Libyan children with HIV virus.
Such is the man touted as one of the powers-to-be in post-Gaddafi Libya. Moderate, modern, secular? Grotesque more likely.
Baron
August 31st, 2011 6:11pm Report this commentBaron sides firmly with the Americans on this, the ICC should have no jurisdiction over anyone except a stateless person.
The farting colonel is the citizen of Libya, Libya should deal with him as she sees fit, RCE's point is valid, too.
David Ossitt
August 31st, 2011 7:14pm Report this comment“where Libyan judges can sit side by side for a limited period with international judges. This will guarantee that justice is meted out to an appropriate standard, while the Libyan justice system is built up for the future.”
By saying that “This will guarantee that justice is meted out to an appropriate standard” is code for any penalty but not the death penalty. It is trying to impose our lily livered standards on them. It simply is not on.
This is totally wrong, let them find him, let them charge him, let them try him and his gang, and then let them hang the bastards as publicly as is possible.
In other words let justice be seen to be done.
FvH
August 31st, 2011 8:43pm Report this comment@Augustus sees things very clearly unlike most of the opinion formers in the West - the new regime in Libya will have more than the infamous "flicker" of Al Qaeda about it - they will impose Sharia, they will try to keep the UN out and we have helped create a new Frankenstein's monster on our doorstep!!
Not very smart really
David Lindsay
August 31st, 2011 8:59pm Report this comment"It will be no use, for example, in David Cameron whining six months from now when women are forced by law to wear burqas in Tripoli and are not allowed out on their own... It will have become a disaster partly of his own making."
So writes Rod Liddle in this week's Spectator. But six months? Lindsey Hilsum's head was covered on Channel 4 News this very evening. Happy Eid...
Yam Yam
September 1st, 2011 8:26am Report this commentA bullet in the back of the head. It was good enough for Ceausescu.
Anne Wotana Kaye 1
September 1st, 2011 2:51pm Report this commentAugustus
August 31st, 2011 5:46pm
Augustus, I agree completely with everything you have posted. I have also been posting, since this whole Libyan episode started, warning what a lot of blithering and craven idiots our government and the UN are. No doubt that Gadaffi is a raving lunatic, but in the manner of all things 'Arab/Moslem/Middle East' each meglomaniac disctator is succeeded by one worse thn the previous. Thus, it is in the order of things that instead of progress, with the exception of weapons of war, everything moves backwards.
David Ossitt
September 1st, 2011 3:42pm Report this commentYam Yam
“A bullet in the back of the head. It was good enough for Ceausescu.”
Yam Yam that is not the case, both he and his wife were tried found guilty and sentenced to death, the execution was held immediately after by firing squad.
The firing squad was lead by Captain Ionel Boeru and two other soldiers who shot them with AK-47 assault rifles. After the shooting had stopped, the bodies were covered with canvas.
The hasty trial and execution were videotaped.
You can see the video of the execution on the internet.
Kennybhoy
September 1st, 2011 4:15pm Report this commentDavid Ossitt on September 1st, 2011 3:42pm wrote in reponse to Yam Yam:
"Yam Yam that is not the case, both he and his wife were tried found guilty and sentenced to death, the execution was held immediately after by firing squad.
The firing squad was lead by Captain Ionel Boeru and two other soldiers who shot them with AK-47 assault rifles. After the shooting had stopped, the bodies were covered with canvas.
The hasty trial and execution were videotaped.
You can see the video of the execution on the internet."
Many thanks for this insight into both your web surfing habits and indeed your soul Maister O!
David Ossitt
September 1st, 2011 11:44pm Report this commentKennybhoy
September 1st, 2011 4:15pm
Many thanks for this insight into both your web surfing habits and indeed your soul Maister O!
A trifle holier than thou Kenny, and also very wrong, it shows nothing of my surfing nor have you an insight into my soul.
Yam Yam had said that Ceausescu had died from a bullet to the back of the head, and I was sure that at the time we were told that after a very brief trial they were taken out and shot, I simply found the facts to confirm my opinion.
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