43 percent of Tory backbenchers vote for an EU referendum in defiance of David Cameron

TGF UKIP

Son of Sir Antony Meyer, your time is at hand.

FvH

Cameron's end begins tonight!

I love the smell of Euroscepticsm on a Monday evening - it's the smell of victory!!

TGF UKIP

Something almost biblical in seeing such vaunted arrogance turned into utter humiliation.

The jellies turned out not to be so wobbly or so wet after all. Well done every man of woman of them.

Dennis Churchill

The more important percentage is the latest poll---68% of the electorate want a referendum on EU membership.
The present leadership of all three main stream parties is probably the most removed from the culture of the majority of the electorate we have had in a very, very long time—and not just on the EU.

Andy H

Funny how the issue seems to be all about the party - I thought the real point was that this was a democratic process and parliament was doing the will of the people...

Never have voters seemed so irrelevant...

startledcod

How foolish not to have developed a renegotiation strategy already. This vote has cost Mr Cameron dear and could have been averted if he had thought ahead.

Watching Michael Fallon, who is not a fool, spouting the 'Referendum Lock' con on Newsnight was indicative of why they Government are so out of touch with the electorate. We all know that whether competernces are ebbing to the EU will be decided by the Government (nothing to see here, move along) and that whilst they have been chattering about the Lock (a marketing initiative) powers have been moving EUwards.

The negotiation is a very simple one, would command huge approval within the country and has been encapsulated by John Redwood; in return for letting them go ahead with full scale union we will need to have the right to opt out of measures we do not like. This must apply to past measures as well as to future ones. We would offer them the chance to repeal the measure for all EU members, or amend it to mutual satisfaction. If they do not wish to do so we must have the right to repeal it in the UK.

Who can object to that?

Dave B

Didn't Nick Boles give Team Cameron's position during the debate? Nothing doing until year 4 of a Tory gov't, 7 years from now.

Even if they wanted to renegotiate who would do it? The FCO?

Baron

How many of the rebellious Tory MPs would have toed the line if there was a chance the motion could pass, ha?

John Richardson

Cameron needs to get rid of whatever idiot it was who introduced this petition idea and deploy his deadly charm.

Who do these MPs think they work for?

nonny mouse

The referendum was defeated by 372 votes.

Move on. Nothing to see here.

John Richardson

Cameron needs to get rid of whatever idiot it was who introduced this petition idea and deploy his deadly charm.

Who do these MPs think they work for?

John Richardson

Mr Forsyth,above you write.....

"Tonight should make him appreciate that the party also wouldn’t tolerate him missing a chance to refashion Britain’s membership of the European Union if the opportunity presents itself."

Mr Forsyth, have you ever heard of a thing called The Euro?

Look into it, you will find it a fascinating subject and who knows, one day it may even present the oppourtunity that you....oh....whats the point?

AAE

" . . . . . the party also wouldn’t tolerate him missing a chance to refashion Britain’s membership of the European Union if the opportunity presents itself."
This line is trotted out constantly and I wonder why The Spectator's political editor doesn't imagine the Government capable of creating such an opportunity. With every EU member nation technically bankrupt, surely this is the perfect time to face reality. He who pays the piper calls the tune!

London Calling

111+ public support= The Political Neutrinos =string theory + The speed of right…:)

Well done to those who stood their ground…

Jez

Good analysis James.

Cameron has to grow a backbone and become a leader with courage.

There has never been a more startling opportunity for GB (PLC?) to get it's finger out of it's arse and negotiate us out of the f*cktard position we've found ourselves in due to previous governments utter incompetances.

daniel maris

It's complete nonsense that the EU is going to let us "refashion" our relationship with it. You really think the EU will give you the freedom to undercut the rest of the EU on labour costs? Dream on.

The EU is on a journey to superstatehood: you you either follow on that journey or you go your own direction, which means leaving the EU.

We can join the EEA with minimal economic damage and plenty of economic opportunities arising.

Of course the people must decide. If we decide to stay in then our aim should be to fully democratise its institutions. But I think if there was a proper debate, people would vote to join the EEA.

In2minds

"This should be a wake-up call to David Cameron. He needs to develop a proper policy for repatriating powers from Brussels, change his style of party management, and reform the Whips office".

I agree, it should be a wake up call, but I think we all know our Dave will slumber on.

As for repatriating powers from Brussels he stands more chance of defying gravity, the EU does not work that way. Repatriation will not work.

As for his 'style' of management, style free might be an apt description, apart from all the U-turns that is.

It's not crisis management but crisis manufacture he's good at. Just wait a few weeks and Merkel and Sarkozy will have backed him into a corner and we will be told this is 'good for Britain'. The man is hopeless.

Joel

It's funny I went to the People's Pledge congress on Saturday and there was something mildly disturbing about the experience. So much so I actually turned into a Eurocrat.

There I was in a room packed full of UKIP coffin-dodgers heckling anyone who didn't denounce Europe, and cheering at the fainstest whisp of zenophobia; and it occurred to me I wanted to have nothing to do with these people.

I then walked back via St Pauls where the young anti-capatalists were stationed. Based on a BBC feature I'd seen that morning I thought it would be an intimidating atmosphere. Far from that though, people were just singing and dancing - and it was incredibly refreshing.

Frank P

Dave B

"Didn't Nick Boles give Team Cameron's position during the debate?"

WBGTDWI?

Sorry, ACP.

David Lindsay

Cameron now has 80 "impossible" MPs so far as Ministerial office is concerned. Two of them were PPSes 24 hours ago. The rest of his MPs must be very, very, very pleased indeed. Apart from the Whips, that is. What are they supposed to do with 80 people who have nothing to lose?

The wrong motion? Yes, but the motion that there was. These are the 19 Labour MPs who voted for it: Ronnie Campbell, Rosie Cooper, Jeremy Corbyn, Jon Cruddas, John Cryer, Ian Davidson, Natascha Engel, Frank Field, Roger Godsiff, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, Steve McCabe, John McDonnell, Austin Mitchell, Dennis Skinner, Andrew Smith, Graham Stringer, Gisela Stuart, Mike Wood. They were joined by the Labour-aligned Unionist Lady Sylvia Hermon and by the Lib Dem Adrian Sanders. I have yet to check abstentions. So, the 21-member core of the potential campaign for something better, namely legislation with five simple clauses.

First, the restoration of the supremacy of British over EU law, and its use to repatriate agricultural policy and to restore our historic fishing rights in accordance with international law. Secondly, the requirement that, in order to have any effect in the United Kingdom, all EU law pass through both Houses of Parliament as if it had originated in one or other of them. Thirdly, the requirement that British Ministers adopt the show-stopping Empty Chair Policy until such time as the Council of Ministers meets in public and publishes an Official Report akin to Hansard.

Fourthly, the disapplication in the United Kingdom of any ruling of the European Court of Justice or of the European Court of Human Rights (or of the Supreme Court) unless confirmed by a resolution of the House of Commons. And fifthly, the disapplication in the United Kingdom of anything passed by the European Parliament but not by the majority of those MEPs certified as politically acceptable by one or more seat-taking members of the House of Commons.

paulg

Cameon must now offer an olive branch to these men and women, these are the spine of the conservative party, they will stand in defiance of preference or power.

Conservatism asks for people to stand and defend conservatism and they have stood, solid against all odds. There is no defeat or shame, when you stand in defiance for what you believe.

We will all cross the river soon and acknowledge what you have done.

fergus pickering

Cameron must... do precisely nothing. As for courage, what would be courageous in sitting on the fence over a motion whose supporters agreed was of no importance? The truth is 70% of the British people want a referendum but they don't want it very much. I've no doubt 70% of the British people want them to win lots of medals in the Olympics but they don't want it very much. In fact they really don't care.

For myself I really don't want to be numbered with the coffin-dodgers. Neither of my daughters knew what was going on in Westminster, nor cared when I told them.

Sir Everard Digby

James,

I find your use of language strange. Who are the 'rebels' over this issue? A majority of the electorate would like to have a vote over membership of an unaccountable and corrupt organsation which rules our lives. Either to indicate acceptance of that situation or a wish to change it in some way.

Why would anyone not permit a vote in such circumstances? Cameron himself was promising one not so long ago!

Yet,representing the wishes of constituents and endorsing a manifesto commitment is now classified as rebellion apparently.

To the political classes I am sure this makes perfect sense. To the man in the street,the real 'rebels' are those with the bagful of broken promises.

What hope is there with this type of thinking prevailing?

All Cameron needs to do to deal with this is hold a referendum.Otherwise this will not go away.

Bugger all point in peoples' petitions if the government whips the vote against what is asked for.

Why do politicians think they can ignore us?

normanc

Fergus is right, democracy is so outdated.

By the way Fergus who do your daughters fancy for the X-factor final? The dishy looking guy or the girl with the big knockers? I prefer the knockers myself but then I'm shallow.

Nicholas

Nice bit of propaganda Joel but a bit too twee and carefully contrived. As for the ageism in "coffin dodgers" (Urban dictionary, curiously: "an elderly person trying to over stay their worth on planet earth") those who use the term might reflect in their scorn that their own coffin-dodging is an inevitability too. Funny how in this mawkish age of bogus hugging, caring and sharing such an offensive term thrives.

alexsandr

David Lindsay@October 25th, 2011 1:30am
You list the members from other parties. But i look in vain on the bbc for any mention of a labour split. Wonder why that is?

Baron

Dennis Churchill knows what’s important: “The more important percentage is the latest poll---68% of the electorate want a referendum on EU membership”.

Yup, that’s spot on except that when asked in the same poll how would they vote on the in-out question the sample splits evenly 29% for in, 29% for out.

Your emotions towards the EU blind you, stop being angry, think for a change, the in-out question is the wrong one, it’s a killer question, it would kill our sovereignty completely, put us on the road to total domination by the undemocratic Brussels nomenclatura, we need to be more cunning, outsmart the tossers, we need a brand new treaty.

Simon

A Conservative MP on Daybreak this morning(someone has to watch it) admitted that the MPs who "rebelled" did so because they knew they weren't going to win. I am assuming therefore they are just Europlastics and trying to shore up support in their own constituencies and to try to make it look like we do have a functioning democracy when we clearly have a one party state

Maggie

93% of Tory voters approve of Cameron's leadership. Presumably the petulant inarticulate monomaniacal Eurobores on display yesterday represent the other 7%.

Chris lancashire

Right, the kiddies have had their fun, the adults can now get on with dealing the economic situation which is all that should be occupying government right now.

Nice to see the front page photo of the UKIP supporters outside Parliament yesterday. The BNP placard at the back was unmissable. Maybe not so strange bedfellows.

Pot Head

Time to get the Photoshop out and change those NO to AV poster to

"HE NEEDS A BULLETPROOF VEST NOT AN EU REFERENDUM" and my personal favourite "SHE NEEDS A MATERNITY UNIT NOT AN EU REFERENDUM"

jazz606

Simon

".....A Conservative MP on Daybreak this morning(someone has to watch it) admitted that the MPs who "rebelled" did so because they knew they weren't going to win...."

Don't fall for that, it's just spin

Ruairidh

To Daniel Maris,

Your proposition that the EU will not renegotiate is nonsense. In normal times you would have a point but we are currently going through a major EU crisis. The resolution of this crisis will require a new treaty. Getting this treaty through requires our approval (along with the other 26). Now while we would suffer from a Euro collapse it is as nothing the damage the euro zone would face. They are like a heroin addict entering cold turkey and we’ve got the Methadone. Now it might feel unsporting to negotiate hard in this position but it is the only time we’ll ever get concessions from Federalist ideologues. This opportunity will not last forever because this market crisis can only last so long before either the euro dies or there is a treaty change. If the government are not thinking hard now about what powers they seek to repatriate then they won’t be ready when the negotiations start.

Dennis Churchill

Baron
October 25th, 2011 8:53am
It is a percentage Labour and the LibDems have more to fear than the Conservatives.
If the Kiddies in Conservative Central Office had any idea of what they were doing they would be working on a strategy that portrays Labour and the LibDems as Pro-EU and anti-referendum.
The spotlight should be off the Conservatives and on Miliband and Clegg—it is them that are out of step with the electorate.
Not that I would suggest they lower themselves to anything that could be described as “Populism” you understand.
Dave B
October 24th, 2011 11:26pm
Yes, the old crack that the Foreign Office was paid to represent the interests of foreigners comes to mind.

Peter From Maidstone

Pot Head, what a stupid post. As if it is not possible for a Government and an Electorate to think about more than one thing at once. You must live a very slow life if you can only think about one thing at once.

Heartless Perry

Firstly, CONGRATULATIONS to the 111 with backbone.

Secondly, James, you end with the words

" ... if the opportunity presents itself ... "

Will the H2B ensure it never does?

Right minded people should keep close their pointed sticks to goad and guide the shifty H2B in the Right direction.

Nicholas

@ Chris lancashire - is it at all within the breadth of your intellect to understand that people have different views and that those you disagree with might not all represent extremes like the BNP - or was that just the usual slippery lefty tactic to damn by association?

Plenty of extreme left wing banners (some very extreme) to be seen in every lefty march, sit in or hugfest too.

Nicholas

@ Chris lancashire - the "adults" don't seem to have done particularly well so far. The argument about timing and the economic situation is poor, especially as the Labour collective are doing everything in their power to disrupt and undermine the coalition efforts as well as "talking down" the recovery.

RocketDog

I watched Stewart and Cash on the BBC's Parliament channel. They both appeared to be doing what they are paid for and representing their constituents. Joel- yes a lot of Euroseptics are 'coffin dodgers.' or just 'old enough to know better.' It is surprising how the experience of looking down the wrong end of the barrel of a gun sharpens one's sensibilities about little things such as National Sovereignty and Individual Liberty.

I am going to bury one tomorrow, and a more liberal minded, finer old warhorse you could never hope to meet. He and his kind recognised bullshit where they saw it and amongst his last cogent words to me were 'vote UKIP.' This is our country to lose. The young and the old need to come together on this

Ghengis

I used my vote at the last GE towards electing Stephen Crabb a Conservative. He is now listed as voting in Parliament upon the same side as the Liberal and Labour parties upon a matter involving whether or not democracy shall be repatriated to our Sovereign State - He obviously, does not wish so.

Jayu

I've been racking my brain, trying to work out why Cameron chose the course of action he did. The only sensible conclusion I could come to was that he was engineering the result so has to strengthen his 'renegotiation' argument with the LibDems. Either that, or it could just be that the Flashman in him expects obedience and despises insubordination. Knowing the man, chances are it's more likely to be the latter.

Jayu

@Ruairidh

Do you really believe that the British establishment, let's leave aside the Americans for the time being, would allow any PM to threaten the world economy for some minor, narrow self interest?

David L

Most people in this country are eurosceptic. If - and that's a big if - the option were available of a more trade-based position in the EU, it would be popular. It's less clear what the result of an in-or-out vote would be, as people do not see the EU as a high priority (only 3% according to one polling organisation). People have bigger fish to fry (the economy, stupid). People may well conclude that - whatever their reservations about the EU, on a straight choice of "in" or "out", they would reluctantly choose "in". That's certainly the premise on which the Lib Dems based their referendum pledge.

The main effect of the Conservative "rebels" returning to the internecine wars of the 90s will be to make said party unelectable, as it became in the 90s. That's a pity, but I dare say the rest of us can muddle though somehow without the collective hysteria we saw in the Chamber yesterday. Or the rebels can decamp to planet UKIP, where they probably belong.

After all, Cameron has already got Parliament to pass legislation requiring that a referendum be held on any further cession of powers from Westminster to Brussels, and has reduced our involvement in future bail-outs (reversing the damage inflicted by the moribund Labour administration). That's hardly Heathism (let alone Blairism) in action. So for those of us who are Eurosceptic, but not xenophobic, Cameron, Hague, Osborne and the rest are doing fine so far.

EC

Maggie, October 25th, 2011 9:14am

"93% of Tory voters approve of Cameron's leadership."

Proof?

Baron

Ruairidh, sir or madam or both, you are ABSOLUTELY right, thank you, what we need is a new accord, the first clause of which should shout loud and clear ‘the member states are, will forever remain sovereign….

Doesn’t it make you despair, Ruairidh, this is supposed to be the blogging site of the thinking people, what’s happened to the brains of Nicholas, Rhoda, Frank, Simon, Dennis, Fergus, Peter, well almost the lot of them, like headless chicken they keep ranting ‘we want an in-out referendum’, don’t they realize the result of it would bury us forever? Are they so besotted by the hatred of the Continent their grey matter seized functioning? Is their insolence preventing them to see beyond the tip of their nose?

For a large part of his presence on this round chunk of matter called the earth, Baron lived in an undemocratic USSR of the east, has no intention finishing his days in the Western equivalent of it, to ensure the escaping of the fate of the unelected bossing him around, we have to bunch up, demand a new treaty, one where people can make an input, then vote on it, and only if it passes the filter of a free vote, should we take it.

Is it that hard to understand?

strapworld

John Ward puts it very well."It is the fact of this situation (and the facts in numbers) that should give everyone in Britain cause for concern. Looking back over the last four polls about EU membership, the figure for those who want out right now without any referendum has crept up to 49% – a staggering statistic, given that if you add to this with a referendum, there is a clear majority for secession…not renegotiation. The percentage saying we must stay in has dropped in just a year from 33% to 25%, and even 42% of LibDem voters have had enough. But the Parliamentary elite refuse to accept any of this glaring evidence of deep dissatisfaction. (For those wishing to depict us as Little Englanders, by the way, I would refer them to the latest Brussels Eurobarometer, which shows the same across the Union…49% wanting to abandon the whole idea.)
As usual, Dave and those around him are lackadaisical and smug about the ramifications for Camerlot. In which case, they should pay more attention to the detail of both this latest poll, and other recent surveys.42% of British voters recently told MORI that they would never vote Tory. Not, ‘don’t vote Tory’…..they would never vote Tory. Right there you have David Cameron’s biggest problem: with his Party’s support still languishing in the upper 30s per cent, and the LibDem vote collapsing, out of five possible votes, he must get three to win – because two are denied to him before he starts.
I suspect it is more ‘him’ than ‘The Conservative Party’, because otherwise the other key stat – that 49% of all of us want out of the European Union immediately – doesn’t make sense. As I keep on posting, but almost nobody seems to get what I’m positing, a Tory Party going full-blooded for euroxit would sweep to power…but it would have to dump Camerlot, and it would split the Party. If, however, Cameron doesn’t grow some balls pretty soon, the Coalition will collapse along with the EU…and Edhead, Harpoon & Balls would gain power. In theory, the EU could wind up breaking the Party system we have here in Britain. But it won’t, because the cosy system in the Commons is far too nice for many MPs to think about shooting the golden goose. Cosy it may be, but yesterday it looked positively archaic"!

Quite.

Michael

Can anyone remind me please of a link which lists the way MPs voted last night. I would like to find out whether my own Conservative MP behaved like a conservative or socialist.

commentator

Chris Lancashire shows his desperate emotional need to believe that Cameron is in charge of the economy. That is the economy with spiralling inflation, ever-rising public debt, high taxes, heavier regulation and a bloated largely unreformed public sector. Add to that the steady destruction of middle class living standards to shore up the banks and Labour's failed state. Gordon Brown could have wished for little better.

Ghengis

No Mr lancashire, Matters concerning our loss of Sovereignty are vital not the size of our overdraft.

Michael

I've now found a list myself, it's here:
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15438557"
My MP is not on it. So that's one vote less for her.

2trueblue

Liebore denied us our promised vote when they had a huge majority over 13yrs. so we know what they think. The LibDums will never opt out and we now know that Cam is not the man. Where to now.

Dennis Churchill

Ruairidh
October 25th, 2011 9:37am
Except that many of us think of it as having Burgess,Maclean and Blunt negotiate our relationship with the Soviet Union.
It is not that we don’t trust the FCO and political class it is just…we feel they may have divided loyalties.

Mazz

RocketDog
October 25th, 2011 9:59am

Well spoken!

Ian Walker

Even more idiotically, he's now got 89 MPs who:

a) Are going to be very popular with their local party, so won't be deselected.

b) He cannot offer the carrot of promotion, or threaten the stick of non-promotion, because that's a one-shot weapon

89 hard-to-remove MPs who will now have no compuction in rebelling over anything that takes their fancy. Stupid, stupid party management.

ROJ

The first step for Cameron to get things right is for Cameron to admit that he got things wrong, and that's not likely to happen.

Sheffield Skate

thank god for the the Right wing of the Tory party ... just as Cameron et al looked on course for a majority at the next election they have reared their heads and ensured that it won't happen ..thank you, thank you, thank you !

Pettros

Baron the fact that all members need to agree to any alteration of treaty is exactly why we wont get any repatriation of powers.
We maybe out of the Eurozone but if you have looked at our economy and how badly it has been affected by the crisis its not like we hold all the aces!

Maggie

"93% of Tory voters approve of Cameron's leadership."

Proof?
______________________________________________________

-YouGov 23th October in answer to the question: Do you think that David Cameron is doing well or badly as Prime Minister?

Russell

Congratulations to the only LibDem MP who voted for a referendum and for the majority of the electorate Adrian Sanders, my MP in Torbay.
I hope the other spineless MP's, from all parties, lose their seats at the next election.

Mycroft

"Cameron's end begins tonight!

I love the smell of Euroscepticsm on a Monday evening - it's the smell of victory!!"

Yes indeed - for the Labour party!

Dennis Churchill

strapworld
October 25th, 2011 10:31am
The 42% of the electorate you refer to as would: “never vote Tory” (the power of fashion, and the media are very fashionable) could be persuaded not to vote Labour by portraying Labour as Pro-EU, Pro-unlimited immigration, Pro-the Human Rights Act, Anti-British (English really).
The white manual working class is already deserting Labour.They don’t vote Conservative—they don’t vote for anyone.
Like the projections for an In/Out referendum it will probably come down to a very low turnout with the committed deciding the issue. This is why the establishment will do everything to avoid it.
Britain can’t be treated like Ireland and told to keep voting it would make matters worse. The argument will be around a low turnout but the outcome is too dangerous for the EU.We are not Norway or Switzerland who have large trade surpluses with the EU we run a large deficit. We are also large net contributors. Who will make up this contribution? France?
Even the FCO would be pushed to grab defeat from victory in these negotiations.

Ruairidh

To Jayu,
Yes I do. If the PM has enough backbone it can be done. What do you think is going on now in the Franco German debates? It is a balance between self interest and saving the Euro and that is only right and proper. If it was only about saving the Euro then the Germans would have written the cheque by now (and/or debased the Euro, leveraged EFSF etc) but they cannot do this because the German public are not ready to accept the solutions on offer out of ‘narrow self interest’. HMG are there to protect our ‘narrow self interest’ and not protect Greek and German taxpayers. If the Eurozone 17 want treaty change they need to earn it.

Baron: I am not an ‘outer’ just yet but I do think the EU should be stopped in its tracks. It has gone beyond its mandate and is now acting in an undemocratic manner. This is the ideal opportunity to achieve what we want and I do despair that many of the front bench don’t appear to grasp that. My perhaps forlorn hope is that they do but are playing a tactical game of good cop (them) and bad cop (the rebels) with the EU to try and detract some of the flak that Jayu thinks we’ll get.

Dennis Churchill: I accept your point and I would be worried the FCO wouldn’t be tough enough but civil servants are there to serve their minister and a strong willed set of ministers can drive through any policy that isn’t illegal. I have worked in several government departments and I know how the game works.

Rhoda Klapp

Baron, it's about sovereignty. it's about the constitution. And it's about having a real debate about what the implications of the EU really are. I have no idea whether we can get a fair debate about the EU, in or out. Large sections of the media, not excepting this weakly organ, do not represent it fairly now. I'd like that debate, and a vote to follow. I'd like all the pros and cons to be overt. I doubt whether that debate can ever be held, but I'll risk it anyway. I'd like a fair question in any referendum, no promised future renegotiation or weasel word fiddles, just in/out. If that makes me a loony, so be it. A loony to think it will be fair.

David Lindsay

alexsandr, those of us who remember 66 invisible Labour MPs who voted against Maastricht when only 22 Tories did, or 44 who voted against the European Finance Bill when the Whip was withdrawn from half a dozen Tories for doing nothing more than abstain, are entirely unsurprised by that.

As, ahem, predicted on my blog early yesterday evening, neither Newsnight, nor The Record, nor Today in Parliament, reported one word of the sterling speeches delivered by John Cryer, Roger Godsiff, Ian Davidson, Kate Hoey and Kelvin Hopkins.

MilkSnatcher

Can't we use the Scots and the Welsh here? If we accelerate their independence referenda and they both vote yes, we could say that "UK" no longer exists, and each constituent part needs to vote again as to its status within the EU. I think we know what the results of an English jury will be.

Chris lancashire

Mycroft: Spot on.

Rhoda Klapp

I've put a rant on Cohen's blog, but I know most people don't read him so I thought I'd plug it here.

Ghengis

Read and understand -
Sovereignty n supreme power and right to exercise it. dominion. independent state.

I S

Congratulations to the 'rebels' for having reminded the electorate that the Tories are irredeemably split over Europe. The Tories hooting themselves in the foot may cheer up the UKIP monomaniacs, but will render the party even less electable than before. This will prove a huge boost to Labour who may be given, sooner than they could have anticipated, the chance to bury the UK economy once and for all.
As regards the farce that is UKIP (single figure support) - why do so many UKIP trolls infest the Spectator website? Do they not have a website of their own so that they can all work themselves up into a lather about Johnny Foreigner?
The Spectator is not a natural haven for UKIP and I, for one, find their incessant ramblings on this site about as inane and irritating as I do those of PSO, tele and thucy from the far left.
The crucial issue facing all governments right now is the terrifying state of the global economy. That is what is needs to be faced up to as a matter of urgency.

J.R.

Thanks for the tip R.K.

Dennis Churchill

MilkSnatcher
October 25th, 2011 12:26pm
Yes, there are problems with separatists in other EU countries which might cause problems if automatic membership was granted to England and Scotland post independence.
I think there is such a groundswell now that there will be a referendum on the EU within a couple of years. The political class has just become too detached from the electorate but when they see the advantages of wrapping themselves in the flag things will change.
The best tactic would be to campaign for an official cost benefit analyses. The case for continuing our membership is very weak or non-existent in economic terms and the electorate are not interested in the ideology of a united Europe.

Baron

Rhoda, Baron’s guru, please tell the poorly educated Slav where he errs, will you?

In the days when the EU hits the news continuously, almost all of it negative news from where we stand, when the boy, the one running the confused party together with Millipede force their teams of MPs in the House to vote against what is the wish of what, 68%, 80% of the unwashed, on that specific day, the unwashed, when asked how they would vote in an in-out referendum, split equally between the ins and the outs (around 30% each).

What you reckon the split would be after a vicious campaign by the political, cultural, financial, religious… elites to stay in, to embrace the construct fully, ha?

More to the point, what you reckon the in vote would do to our sovereignty, to our ability ever to argue for opt outs and stuff, Barosso or the Rumpoy chap may even come over for a visit, claim the crown, and rightly so if the country were to endorse the monstrosity. We would have to endure another forty years or more of being governed by unelected bureaucrats recruited mostly from failed politicians of the member countries.

Our democratic deficit may be huge, it ain’t crippling us totally yet, we can, should ask for a new treaty, insist on making an input, then vote on it, and only then accept what’s coming.

Joel

@Nicholas,

You're right, probably a little twee. But coffin dodger could not be more apt: these were people latching onto a lost cause based on a desire for self-worth. Also, a little cheap to try and marginalise someone for using a harmless term, my grandparents actually find it quite a funny.

Again regarding the elderly contingent (hope that’s PC enough for you sweet heart), I spoke to them, did you? They weren't quite sure what the long-term political implications actually were of alienating Europe, but they knew dam sure they didn't want to have anything to do that ‘foreign lot’. You see I’m part of a generation who perceive countries such as Germany and France as superior to ours and want to closer unity if anything.

The protestors outside St Pauls just wanted to have banks nationalised. A fairly simple concept and one not based on prejudice.

Rhoda Klapp

Baron, to me, sovereignty is the issue. That is not the case with all anti-EU (let's skip the sceptic, in my own case) people, so I can speak only for myself. I want this nation to be in charge of it's own fate, as much as can be managed in this world. If we are determined to sacrifice that for some perceived greater good, let that good be explained, qunatified, defined. We have never had that. The pushers of the project have always kept the destination pretty close to their chests. That is dishonest, and any vote based on deception cannot stand. Deception there was in 1975. Deception remains. Three million jobs, 40% of our trade, as if that was going to go away if we left. It isn't. The world is pretty much a free trade area now, compared to the 70s. Let us have a fair debate, and a free vote. On in/out, based on the in having the best deal the pro-EU folks can get. No promises, no deception. But if the end in sight is union, let that be stated. If it is not, let that be enshrined in the treaty, with the limits of influence the EU is prepared to stick to. That's all. Sovereignty. Not economics, not immigration, not how our leaders feel at their club meetings.

Cynic

"[Cameron] needs to develop a proper policy for repatriating powers from Brussels ". How exactly? We are one against 26 and have you never heard of acquis communautaire? It annoys me intensely that people trot out this line. We can NOT repatriate powers. The EU will not allow it. The only way to get any power back is to leave. The EU is heading to be another Yugoslavia. I presume you remember how well that worked?

ex-Tory Voter

As there were next to no reports in the news, perhaps people would like to look at:

href:"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmdzt3mxQjg"

Cameron's words at the beginning are particularly interesting in the light of his conduct on Monday.

Incidentally, to the contributor who noticed the BNP poster, I'd like to point out that it was hardly possible to block them from attending a democratic rally in a public place. Everyone I saw there gave the small BNP contingent as wide a berth as possible, but as the French chap who was part of their group pointed out, getting a referendum on how we were governed was a matter of importance to everybody.

Ghengis

Rhoda -- To misunderstand the meaning of "sovereignty" requires a closed mind. We are surrounded.