Libya's revolution, deflated
Peter Hoskin 9:52am
Gaddafi was buried this morning, but Libya's problems remain firmly above ground. The
news emerging from the country is mostly grim: a possible massacre by anti-Gaddafi fighters; the
hint of complicity on the part of Libya's new leadership;
Saif Gaddafi's continuing elusiveness, and so on. Revolution and civil war are never done cleanly, sure.
But just because the current situation is unsurprising doesn't make it any less shocking.
Unsurprising yet shocking. Much the same could be said of Mustafa Abdul-Jalil's declaration that Islamic Sharia law would be
the "main source" of all legislation in Libya from now on. Unsurprising, because Libya is, on the whole, a conservative Muslim country. Shocking, because some of the specific tenets that
Abdul-Jalil espoused — such as polygamous marriage — are so contrary to what the
country's Facebook revolutionaries were striving for. As Foreign Policy's Blake Hounshell says, he might also have been more demoractic about it:
The question that now hangs over Libya is basically one of interpretation: what does Abdul-Jalil mean by "main source"? Is he talking about an Iran-style Islamic Republic of Libya? Or is he talking about a Sharia that informs, rather than imposes on, his country's affairs? The man himself has since gone out of his way to reassure Western leaders that he meant the latter. And there is even the idea that, by talking about Islam, he might stem the allure of the proper extremists. But, still, uncertainty reigns for now — with pessimism by its side."If Libyans want to outlaw interest and bring back polygamy, fine, but let them do so in a democratic and transparent way. Write a new constitution and let the country vote on it."
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Dennis Churchill
October 25th, 2011 10:43am Report this commentAre you suggesting it will not be like Hampstead after the new government is installed?
I can hardly believe it. Has anyone told Cameron?
john gerard
October 25th, 2011 10:50am Report this comment"Shocking"? - are you being serious? Ha! Ha! What on earth did you expect? A benign, liberal, tolerant, democracy? The level of delusion expressed in the western media for this so-called 'Arab Spring' absolutely beggars belief. Why would they when they have a 1400 year old system of social, economic, and political governance all wrapped up in one doctrine to call upon? No need to think about it, or ask any more questions - it's all there already. What, because we were nice to them and dropped a few bombs? And being nice to them will make them want to be like us, AND like us, right? Why would they want to do that?
As for the "Facebook revolutionaries", do you know how many people have access to the internet in Libya? Totally inconsequential. Get out of here with your Facebook and Twitter rubbish.
boulay
October 25th, 2011 10:51am Report this commentthe obvious answer is to totally flood libya with free booze and prostitutes. the guys with the guns will have such a good time that when someone turns round and says, "sorry chaps, not under sharia" then they will be able to persuade the government that sharia might not be what they want quite forcefully...
M. Rowley
October 25th, 2011 10:54am Report this commentWell what a surprise. I recall much the same sort of euphoria that gripped the western liberal media whe the Shah of Iran was overthrown in 1978, with the likes of John Simpson barely able to contain their enthusiasm for the revolution in their reporting. And just look what happened there. So now Libya will go the same way. Result.
Justathought
October 25th, 2011 11:09am Report this commentSharia finance is alive and well here in the UK and I did not hear any calls for a new constitution. A recent quote from the Labor Secretary to the Treasury states;
"The UK is at the forefront of developments in Islamic Finance and London continues to seize new opportunities - two of the largest sukuk issued in the first half of this year were listed in London."
The report also helpfully acknowledges;
"1. On 16 April 2007 Ed Balls, the then Economic Secretary to the Treasury, hosted a High-Level Summit on Islamic Finance. Following the success of the meeting, he announced the establishment of a new consultative forum, the 'Islamic Finance Experts Group' to act as an industry sounding board for the Government and the FSA on Islamic Finance issues going forward.
2. On 23 April 2007, Ed Balls announced that the Debt Management Office and HM Treasury would carry out a feasibility study into opportunities for the Government issuing Islamic financial instruments in the wholesale sterling markets, in consultation with the Islamic Finance Experts Group and reporting at the time of the Pre-Budget Report."
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/newsroom_and_speeches/press/2007/press_89_07.cfm
Austin Barry
October 25th, 2011 11:28am Report this commentThe most apposite comment on our absurd efforts to establish the mores of Budleigh Salterton in Tripoli was presaged by the chorus of the 1922 music hall song 'The Laughing Policeman':
Oh ho ho ho ho ho ho. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Oh ho ho ho ho ho ho. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Jez
October 25th, 2011 11:37am Report this commentPeter Hoskin, your MSM colleagues, the liberal warmongers (et al) that have driven this expedition;
Are you dumb f*cking imbeciles for real?
No, really. Are you?
No negotiation, no diplomacy and (what seems) the libtards very own Disney ending; the 'evil dictator' (a seventy year old injured man) nearly torn limb from limb at the hands of a screaming mob of wailing rebels, stabbed and tortured to death. His son then shot, anyone suspected of being on the wrong side allegedly executed......
Gadaffi might have brought water to the desert but this western backed democracy brought it's very own version of dark age medieval politics- for a while. What an achievement there.
It's the amount of casualties that is of main importance- there is a figure of 70,000 bouncing about that are now dead- which is a massive number.
In February 84 people were allegedly killed in rioting after an army base was set on fire, the weapons looted, soldiers reportedly lynched (or decapitated) and rioters shot dead.
At the end of October 70,000 may be dead. Towns ethnically cleansed and Cities utterly flattened.
The Islamists (the Al qaeda people that the MSM shrugged off and said were lies) are pushing for an Islamist Sharia state. I dare you to actually travel to Tripoli and actually ask 20,000 random people about what they want, who they support and see what comes back.
You utter, utter fools.
Your up to your knees in this.
Fatbloke on tour
October 25th, 2011 11:39am Report this commentPH
Welcome to the nightmare.
When the full story comes out it will make Suez look principled.
Dave the Rave and the French midget will reap what they have sown.
They have blood on their hands and this is only the beginning.
They have trashed the UN's reputation.
They have turned Sirte into an African Stalingrad.
They have unleashed a new wave of Islamic mentalists.
They have destroyed any hope of constructive engagement.
Who now will give up weapons of mass destruction?
The media also need to look at what they did?
Churnalism sponsored by Gulf state autocracies.
Where is the resident SpeccyLand voice of the rebels?
What he / they lacked in fight they made up with PR and spin.
What next, General Pinochet?
Norman Lamont to be tried as a genocide denier?
Bahrain to be liberated or at least given free elections?
Israel to be tried at the Hague over the Lebanon, Gaza, Sabra and ...
Alan
October 25th, 2011 11:52am Report this commentI couldn't agree more with Jez. If the western powers think they have done a good job in Libya, they are fools! Fools who appear to be unanswerable to anyone!
Ruairidh
October 25th, 2011 11:58am Report this commentSome people are determined for their pessimism to triumph. There is a long road to travel and yes the Libyans might not get there and will almost certainly land on a system that is less liberal and less democratic than we might devise for them. But give them a bloody chance before you right them off!
I was a full supporter of the intervention based on the genocide Qaddafi was clearly about to unleash. My support was not conditional on how democratic a post Qaddafi Libya would be. I want HMG to influence as much as possible but ultimately it is for the Libyans to decide. I actually think the signs are extremely positive given the conservative nature of the country and the legacy of the LIFG.
PS Can we stop with the nonsense that Qaddafi was a western backed leader or western stooge. He was the antithesis of this. The thaw in later years was only relative to the icy nature of relations for decades.
john gerard
October 25th, 2011 12:07pm Report this comment@Jez - you tell 'im! The majority of people in the middle east want 'freedom, peace, and justice' alright, but the 'freedom, peace and justice' given to them under Islam, which is totally different. Why do you suppose they want the same things westerners do? Ridiculous and patronising in equal measure. Oh, hang on, what's that sound? It's the sound of Muslims, Jews and Christians holding hands and skipping down Tripoli High Street together, smiling. No wait, my mistake - it's black african Libyans being rounded up and shot by the 'rebels'. But we'll ignore that bit...
Rhoda Klapp
October 25th, 2011 12:28pm Report this commentJez, in a Disney ending the villian always falls from a height. The hero never kills the villain overtly by intent. Otherwise you are correct.
Cjamesk
October 25th, 2011 12:31pm Report this commentMy god the MsM seems as out of touch as our elected representatives.
From the start these "freedom" fighters are nothing more than alky eeda as Brown used to say backed up by NATO, straight from fighting our and our allies armed forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
You reap what you sow, and with full backing from AFRICOM the West is now sitting on oil which stops China in the North African region.
If you deal with the devil then be prepared to deal with the consiquences much like Egypt the jewel in the crown geo politically.
Do catch up and to act surprised given your "contacts" and remove yourself from the "bubble" it's nothing more than insulting.
Pete Hoskin
October 25th, 2011 12:41pm Report this commentjohn gerard: that's why I drew a distinction between shocking and surprising. Very little of what's happening in Libya is surprising, much of it is shocking.
Jez
October 25th, 2011 1:11pm Report this comment@ Pete Hoskin.
You maybe needed to close that stable door sometime ago.
Ruairidh
October 25th, 2011 1:16pm Report this commentRhoda: You're wrong about Disney. I can think of at least one where the villian is killed by the hero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Mermaid_(1989_film)
Also in The Princess and the Frog the villian is effectively killed by the hero but she could claim ignorance of the consequences of her actions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Frog
FvH
October 25th, 2011 1:40pm Report this commentWho here really cares though ?
I mean really cares?
Most people didn't get too excited when the rebels won and most folk here won't be too bothered when the whole thing descends into a bloody shambles - as it's starting to already
Sad but true
Mirtha Tidville
October 25th, 2011 2:44pm Report this commentWhen will they ever heed the old phrase........``Better the devil you know``
normanc
October 25th, 2011 2:49pm Report this commentSurely, like the EU referenda that turn up 'wrong' results, we can just keep on dropping democracy from 20,000 feet on them until we get a bunch of people we approve of?
Rhoda Klapp
October 25th, 2011 3:40pm Report this commentRuairidh, haven't seen the Princess and the Frog, and the underwater setting of the Mermaid precludes the fall from a height method. But otherwise, a statistically staggering proportion of them fall, don't they?
Ruairidh
October 25th, 2011 4:00pm Report this commentA lot do fall... running through the ones I can think of:
Snow White - Fall
Beauty and the Beast - Fall
Cinderalla - Nobody dies
Aladdin - Nobody dies
Little Mermaid - Self defence Murder
Princess & the Frog - Manslaughter
Tangled aka Rapunzel - Murder (but also a fall... turns to dust from accelerated ageing before hitting the ground )
The things you learn when you have daughters....
fergus pickering
October 25th, 2011 4:31pm Report this commentMirthe Tidville, I assume the devil you know includes Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Gordon Brown.
daniel maris
October 25th, 2011 11:56pm Report this commentTime for some clear thinking:
1. The world is far too dangerous now for anything other than principled politics based on democratic values.
2. It is absurd to ask an Islamist to be "more democratic about it" - you wouldn't ask a Nazi to be more democratic about it would you?
The point about a full Sharia society is that it prevents free debate and free elections. It is the end of democracy.
The question is how much are the new Islamic parties are intent on creating real Sharia-based societies, and how much they are interested in political power.
The new Libyan government must be held to account, and our support for it must be fully geared towards how much it adheres to democratic principles. Most important is the extent to which it allows the secular opposition to function.
JohnBUK
October 26th, 2011 10:20pm Report this commentjohn gerard and Daniel Maris - ALL religions are political power, someone in charge decides on the rules and castigates anyone who doesn't abide by them. Dress it up a bit with a few fairy stories and collect the money.
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