Why this is not the time for an EU referendum

strapworld

I hope East Surrey rid themselves of this cowardly custard. Eurosceptic! he will always dance to Cameron's tune. Man of straw.

Rhoda Klapp

Well, when IS the time, weasel?

Heartless Perry

Silly Boy!

toco

The BBC and the majority of the press have greatly underestimated David Cameron's political skills.By grandstanding on this issue and calling a three line whip which 81 of his own MPs ignored his negotiating position with the EU is substantially strengthened as he can point to the groundswell of feeling within his own Party.Clever politics which seems beyond the vast majority of so called political pundits.

Peter From Maidstone

Why is the person being given a voice here. He is the MP who said he didn't bother listening to his constituents. Why should we bother listening to him?

DavidDP

Decent article, with some quite clear strategic and tactical points.

Thank you.

Dennis Churchill

Continental European political and legal culture differs fundamentally from ours and the rest of the Anglosphere.That culture will prevail in any European Union.
For most of the continent democracy is a recent innovation, two generations ago it was not present in Germany, Austria or Italy. More recently Spain, Portugal and Greece were military dictatorships. The Eastern European countries were part of the Soviet Empire.
Popularism is an insult in the corridors of Brussels.
How can we expect a political culture to evolve from this recent history that we will feel comfortable with?
We will never reconcile these differences so it is better to leave and let Continental Europe develop in a way that suits its rapidly ageing and declining population.

James

Sam,
I guess the answer to your question is twofold.
1, because you want a job
2, because you know who packed your parachute.

I watched the whole thing, and I'm amazed that after listening to the debates for so long you felt unable to vote with the electorates wishes.

Only Nick Bowles had anything like a reason to vote with the whips, which falls down when you think of the distance between last night and a referenda.

Disappointed.

Rhoda Klapp

Well, on second thought let us not condemn Sam G too harshly. Perhaps he can tell us what the coalition policy on the EU actually is? He talks of making progress in Europe, what does that mean? What is the ideal relationship of the UK (or maybe its constituent bits) to the EU? Because, if he cannot define that, the whole post is bollocks, isn't it?

perdix

A very sensible article.

Craig Strachan

"Belgium with nukes".

Britons never, never, never shall be Belgians, in or out of the EU.

PayDirt

Britain’s strength is its ability to not only keep up with changes but lead the changes. We are a diverse group which is good at identifying our strengths and playing them on a world stage. Why run for cover now, what kind of vision for the future is that?

Biggestaspidistra

what a dithering twerp

Chris lancashire

Thank you for an excellent, well reasoned piece. Unfortunately the 1% of the UK population who think the EU is the most pressing current issue largely inhabit this site.

John David Barnett

I glanced at the first few vicious comments and skipped the rest.

RKing

But as it stands Sam you have no plans whatsoever in the foreseeable future to do anything yet you seem to suggest that it needs renegotiating. Might I suggest that the divide in the party has been caused by the PM.
It's pretty clear I think that Cameron does not intend to do anything at all. If he is serious then lets see a timetable or a clear plan.

Shame on you MP's that voted against it.
You have lost my vote.

Voting UKIP seems the only alternative now!!

Austin Barry

Just another tedious, ambitious PPE keeping his job prospects and Dave's fundament well-oiled.

Herbert Thornton

This conjures up an image of the Captain of the Titanic shouting -

"Don't abandon ship - that's daft. Give buckets buckets to everybody and them them bail out the water as fast as they can."

Crida

It sounds like Sam Gyimah is making excuses that he doesn't believe in himself.

"The reality of politics is that bringing back powers that should never have been surrendered in the first place could take months, if not years, to achieve. To guarantee that we see the project through we need an outright victory at the next election."

Bull, with people like Sam and Cam, bringing back powers from Brussels may take for ever. And now, that Europe you are so afraid of knows what you are going to do if you win an outright majority at the next election, that may not happen either.

MilkSnatcher

Mr Gyimah
I believe the last time we had a referendum on the EU in this country was 1975. Since then we have been told to wait. Wait for the benefits of the Single European Act to come, wait for the benefits of Maastricht to bestow themselves upon us, wait for the Euro to shower untold wealth upon we lucky Europeans direct and indirect, and now what....more waiting. Wait for the new plan? Wait for a dysfunctional European leadership which adores the democratic deficit to start discussions on what a new Europe should look like? Wait for them to bully smaller nations into voting twice when the right result cometh not? How long is that going to take? Look how long it has taken them NOT to agree on a solution for Greece, and how much longer it will take them NOT to fashion a solution for Italy and the others. We might once have been a nation of shopkeepers but now we're a nation of waiters. This surely is a plan to wait long enough so that anyone with a bad memory of the EU as it is today is either dead, senile, sectioned or living in Miami. Events, dear boy....

Cjamesk

Ah Party over Country, I guess that greasy pole is far easier to climb now.

I'd make sure you and the others that voted against the proposal don't get too comfy in that ivory tower, we know you don't like listening to your constituents and I'm sure come election time they'll remember.

Rhoda Klapp

Chris l, when would be the right time, in your opinion? Don't you agree with Sam that it needs fixing? What is your plan, what would be your suggested EU policy which the party and their coalition partners could agree on? Or does it come down to 'don't rock the boat'?

Simon Stephenson.

The thing is, Mr Gyimah, that some of us see people like you as being the 2010's version of the 1930's appeasers. The reality of your position is that you are so status-quo biassed that there is no UK-EU settlement that you would deem to be bad enough to justify us splitting from the EU. So all this guff about being in a position to influence negotiations in our favour is just that - guff. You're not presenting us with anything resembling what the UK is likely to be able to get out of future negotiations. You're attempting to mislead us into thinking that we have enough clout to achieve a settlement with the EU that is positive to the UK. We haven't, and it's about time you started talking in realities rather than fabricated pipedreams. Or are you too steeped in the modern world to recognise that this is what you should be doing?

HK

Whatever David Cameron says about wanting to repatriate powers, his problem is that he is being judged on his actions to date.

And as a result, people do not trust him to negotiate, because they don't think he is actually Eurosceptic.

Labour can say "trust us on the economy" all they want: people won't, because Labour has proven itself economically incompetent. Cameron & Hague can say "trust us on Europe" all they want. They won't be trusted either.

Ian Walker

It's a noble sentiment, but there's a big elephant that is not only in the room, but blocking the way out.

We have heard time and time again the line "the best way to reform the EU is from the inside," and yet the reform never comes. Europe is the "don't ask, don't tell" stitch-up between the three main parties, because everyone is secretly hoping for a Kinnock or Mandelson style sinecure.

Governments of every stripe have cried wolf too many times over the EU. We just don't believe you any more.

Simon Stephenson.

Chris lancashire : 5.31pm

False argument, I'm afraid. A tiny percentage, I'm sure, would rate the continuation of parliamentary democracy as being the most pressing current issue. Does this mean that they consider it so unimportant that they would be unconcerned if it were dispensed with?

Bill Rees

Sam, I thought your piece was very well reasoned, and I could appreciate your points, which are essentially about the delicacy of the negotiations over new treaties and the danger of losing influence if we pull out of the European Union.
But we seem to be past the point at which we can get the sort of treaty that we want, which transfers powers back to this country and removes some of the absurd regulations that have been imposed on us by Brussels.
As for the loss of power that might come from leaving the EU, the fact is surely that what power we had has already been taken away from us.
Barroso and his cronies are looking to centralise even more power, and are using the Eurozone crisis as an excuse to do this.
To use your poker analogy, sometimes you have to realise when to throw your hand in.

Rhoda Klapp

OK, this needs a good fisking. I'll do it, if Fraser will post it as another voice. I won't do it to be comment 50 on page 2 of the CH, waste of time. What about it, Mr Nelson?

I promise I'll be nice, and spell check it.

Simon Stephenson.

Chris lancashire : 5.31pm

False argument, I'm afraid. A tiny percentage, I'm sure, would rate the continuation of parliamentary democracy as being the most pressing current issue. Does this mean that they consider it so unimportant that they would be unconcerned if it were dispensed with?

Magnolia

I think the elites want to make all the important decisions without the people and they are walking round in circles, prevaricating and just talking to themselves.
This is more of the same.
Sam we want some action and we want it now and the Prime Minister is afraid of his own MPs and he is afraid of the will of the people.
'Just leave it to us' is not a policy. It won't do.
It reminds me of the Dads Army sketch where the Germans have taken the vicar and the verger hostage in the Church Hall and all of the official rescue and armed forces pass the buck while the plucky idiotic home guard go in under Captain Mainwaring and sort it all out.
It's the 'don't tell him Pike' gag one.

Hepworth

The duties of an MP of are-Foremost to represent the voters who gave him his job of work, his/her country, and trailing a distant 3rd their party.
All dissenters should form a loose alliance as Independents,form a new party and would probably run the country in a short space of time.

David Atherton

Sorry I am sick and tired of UK politicians fiddle while the economy burns. Cameron has giving little evidence that he has integrity in dealing with the EU.

I am sick of talk, I want to see action and now.

Ray Williams

If the MPs will not take into account the old e-petition we should sign the new one here: https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20133

normanc

After Cameron revealing his hand as a busted flush and Sarkozy telling him to shut the **** up this must be line of the century:

'No-one wins a game of poker by revealing their hand at the start. '

Anyone who thinks you need talent or intelligence to make it to the office of MP please direct them to this post. They should be disabused of that notion by the second paragraph.

James

Perhaps the voters of East Surrey will note that 2015 is "not the time" for Sam Gyimah to be their MP.

A shame that you chose short-term career prospects over the interests and expectations of your constituents and country.

Tarka the Rotter

Well, back in 1975 I voted for a free trade area - that was what we were told and that seemed ok to me...at that moment in time. When were we asked about giving up our sovereignty to a superstate? When were we asked about fundamental constitutional changes? What consent was ever given to EU taxation? As for your 'we have...' Sam, I take it that the we in question refers to MPs - it certainly does not refer to the rest of us as nobody asked us. How about a bit of democracy? Stop telling us when you think it is right or not right to have a referendum, as if we are children being denied the sweetie jar and GIVE US A REFERENDUM. Apologies for the capital letters, but really...

Anan

Ah yes, like any other dictator here's our local one trotting out a crony minion to promote the official line. The UK's very own Omar Suleiman - or is that role already taken by Mr Pound? Fine then, Gyimah can be the minion's minion.

I heard this MP make his speech yesterday evening and I must say that his arguments are rubbish. Well done for rehashing that gibberish into an article today. Not.

Your biggest point seems to be that the public are actually interested in jobs, crime, and immigration. Well duh!

Europe is the root cause of all these problems. So dealing with Europe is the answer to all the voters' concerns. I'm sure you and your boss realise this, but you want to hide this simple and obvious truth from the conscience of the average Brit (who incidentally have shown themselves to be moronic, lazy, fatsos) so that you can please your tyrannical overlords in Brussels and thereby secure you, Hague and Cameron an upgrade to the plush halls of European power - paid for by extortion of the European taxpayer. Whiny Fetus probably relishes the opportunity to be the next EU foreign minister, so that he can take his viceroy-sized ego on yet more jaunts to primitive countries.

Your other argument seems to boil down to "We should't be swayed by a mere 100,000 petitioners." The government decided to set a threshold of 100,000 to trigger a Commons debate. That was the rule. That target was met, and so the people expected the government to follow the rules. There's no point complaining about it.

Furthermore, your insinuation that it's simply the "grassroots" that care about Europe, and that otherwise very few actually list Europe as an issue is cheap.

I don't count myself as within the "grassroots" and I'm proud of that fact - it's the grassroots daydreamers that loved Mr Baldy Hague until just a few days ago. But I still care about this issue of Europe. If more Brits actually realized how much Europe intruded upon their lives, then they too would care like I do. In fact, 70% say they want a referendum on Europe, even though "Europe" per se is low down on their priorities.

If there was a referendum, the campaign would allow the "Out" group to broadcast across the nation the lies, corruption, tyranny, and barefaced extortion which holds the European project together, and there is no doubt that we would be leaving the EU! But that's precisely why we aren't allowed a vote, isn't it?

What a disturbing site indeed to see our democratic rights rescinded by an unholy alliance of CronyTory, Labourite and Liberal! The media too, usually at pains to make Cameron look weak, were roundly defending him and covering up the protests and strength of feeling against Europe within this country. I saw better, fairer coverage of the events on Euronews, of all places, which ironically is funded by the EU project! Seems like the country with the worst democracy deficit in Europe is actually the UK, thanks to its suck-up politicians.

My question is simple, and please pass it up to Dave and Baldy Pound too: How DARE you tell us the citizens of a sovereign democracy what we may or may not have a vote on? Who do you think you people are? YOU work for us, NOT the other way around. Get that through all your arrogant skulls.

Ultimately, no matter how many Suleimans or Gyimahs come on to this website, or any other, or any news channel to try and spin this mess, be clear on one thing. Cameron has been greatly weakened by the whole sordid affair, within the party, within the country, and within Europe. He will pay the price for his recklessness and high-handedness sooner rather than later, and with him you too will come down to Earth, Gyimah. Humpty Dumpty springs to mind when I think of the lot of you!

Barbara

"We need an outright victory at the next election".

You could have had an outright victory at the last one, but your party leader chose not to.
Tories way out ahead in polls when Dave promised referendum; Tories very unpopular when promise taken back.
Now you're trying the same trick again. It cost 1 million votes and a majority last time. Yesterday it cost you party unity.
Not a quick learner, then?

TomTom

"we need a clear-eyed strategy to move forward."

Do you indeed ! I fail to detect any " clear-eyed strategy" in the EU at present or in Westminster....perhaps you could dazzle us with your brilliance and enunciate one which will set the debate ablaze ?

paulg

What are you on about you moron: Belgium with nukes, we are the masters of the English speaking world, go and look at the G7 or the G8 or what ever it is and half of the people there are from the anglosphere.

We straddle the world, gaining resources, raw material and man power. We dont give a flyin about Europe, we are not going to be tied to these people as they sign a suicide pact with themselves. They are trying to hitch a free ride and we will kick them off in the fast lane.

You need to get with the programme, and if you ever tip up here again you wont be having a fit of the vapours, spouting nonsense like that to us. I think George Osbourne should kick you to death to make amends, it will be a fig leaf, you scheming....

commentator

Mr Gyimah is needless to say another Oxford PPE graduate with limited "experience" outside politics: see Private Eyes passim. Maybe his real name is Israel Dagg because with skills like these at kicking key issues into the long grass, he should be playing full back for New Zealand.

And in response to Chris Lancashire, of course the electorate are not interested in Europe. That must be so because they have no interest in creating jobs, economic growth, low inflation, or banking stability. They are much more interested in hugging huskies, loading environmental costs onto business and households and stuffing the Tory benches with courtiers like Sam Gyimah and Louise Mensch. It's so obvious I wonder why anyone even questions it.

Hepworth

When push comes to shove and either EU implodes or anarchy reigns on the streets of Kensington it will be Those honourable and patriotic MP's who voted for will be the hero's and the traitorous an-ti's who will be castigated.

Justathought

Fraser re : Rhoda Klapp @ 5.59

I would like to see you accept this offer as I have not read nor heard anyone clearly articulate how we see our future relationship in the EU and why any future negotiations cannot benefit from a fresh mandate from the population.

Paul Daniels

Hear hear Sam ! I agree with you entirely but will save my judgement until I learn our objectives ( I know this may be retrospective so as not to compromise negotiations) and can judge the results. What will be the best outcome for Britain, politically, socially and economically?

Peter From Maidstone

I've signed the new petition.

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/signatures/2134332/verify/UwfGgbhwFf3usd6b97U

2trueblue

Democracy, a long forgotten thing. First we got dragged further and further into the EU net and trap, and now our politicians are behaving with the same arrogance. Who do they think they are? Cam is not the man to do it for us. He has no charisma, he is a sham. He talks a good talk but it is shallow, with no real meaning and certainly not enlightening. Of course we ar fed up. Roll on the next election.

In2minds

"we are all Eurosceptics now".

Ah! A moment of pure comedy, what a man, what an MP, what a benefit to the nation.

TGF UKIP

Thanks P From M, I'm added too.

I'm surprised I haven't yet seen one for a referendum on whether we wish to see our electricity bills double in aid of Heath2's green posturing.

wrinkled weasel

Sam. A word in your ear.

Don't forget, please, that there are some of us po white folks who have not been to Oxbridge or the The City or The Houses of Parliament. (We actually live in what is jocularly known as The Real World.)

In other words, we don't buy into the crap as easily as you do.

Voting against a referendum on the basis that the time was not right is utter crap. Not just crap, but crap with an extra helping of crap, done up as chocolate icing.

Yes, I know you are ambitious, but try to put your intellect above your ambition and be honest about the EU.

All arguments against a referendum are de facto anti democratic. Nobody in 1975 signed up to what we have now and you know it.

What we have now is a mechanism whereby a global elite, unfettered by democracy, is running its affairs without reference to the general population. Even you should be able to work that one out.

And if you had any integrity, you would be doing your best to reclaim our sovereignty.

Jon stack

You assume I think that even under a new treaty, the EU will be beneficial for its member states. Not so, do not become obsessed with the economics and forget the peoples of Europe and their beliefs and values. If a new treaty continues to deny national identities and democratic principles, and allow its hidden apparatchiks to abuse and disadvantage all of its citizens in one way or another, the EU will end in the same desperate, dark place many of its proponents believe it would help Europe avoid. And they will have that blood on their hands. We should stay well clear.

Herbert Thornton

Re my posting (October 25th, 5:37pm)

Damned computers. This is the second time it has happened - what appeared as my posting was not what I had intended. Here's the correct version with the correction in italics -

"This conjures up an image of the Captain of the Titanic shouting -

"Don't abandon ship - that's daft. Give buckets to everybody and tell them to bail out the water as fast as they can.""

Scott

well said weasel...what are the elite scared of!!!! surely not us little people giving them the answer they don't want.. A referendum is now required

bojimbo

What a tart .

David Phipps 1

Mr. Gyimah,

That your article can be praised by some commenters illustrates that you are not the only one with a deficit in brain cells.

Yoou talk about not disclosing ones hand in a game of poker - the only problem is the cards Cameron holds is a 'busted flush'.

You talk about repatriating powers - perhaps you could explain how this can be done? Perhaps you can explain what it is about 'acquis communitaire' that you do not understand?

You talk about the fact that just 1% regard Europe as as the most important issue, well behind the economy, unemployment, immigration and crime. Would you please explain which one of those examples you quote is not affected by our membership of the EU? Perhaps you would explain why it is, when you and your political colleagues will not enagage in meaningful debate with the electorate, when you never raise the subject in public, that the percentage is not higher?

If you believe, as you so obviously do, that membership of the EU is in this country's best interests perhaps you would care to provide a cost/benefit analysis? If not why not? Oh and please don't quote the old chestnut that most of our exports go to Europe when your colleagues reply to Lord Stoddart in the HoL showed that those statistics are flawed.

One can but hope, having written this rubbish, you will return to answer your critics - however being what seems to be the consumate politician, no doubt that hope will be dashed.

So come on, Mr. Gyimah, come and debate - or are you more mouse than man?

Edward McLaughlin

"We have passed powers to Brussels at the cost of undermining the sovereignty of Parliament."

What a flaccid observation Mr Gyimah. This is prose loitering without intent. You are in the right job without a doubt.

ex-Tory Voter

Sam, I echo the words of one of your colleagues - if not now, when? Succinct and to the point. It wasn't the time at Maastricht, it wasn't the time at Lisbon, it won't be the time when all the Lisbon passerelle clauses have dragged us deeper into the EU's black heart and bled us dry. If you do not understand that now is precisely the time - now, before it is too late - I sincerely hope your constituents vote you out for the contempt you have shown for their opinions. My MP either abstained or voted against, I haven't been able to find out which yet. Not that it matters because either is a betrayal. I've begun mobilising my armies to depose him at the next election. I have had plenty of volunteers already who are willing and ready to get out and canvass. They say revenge is a dish best served cold.

Andrew SW18

I should quite like a Referendum on continued membership of the Commonwealth, which grants votes in our Parliamentary elections to citizens of Mozambique (and soon, one imagines, Somalia), and seems to involve eternally subjecting UK taxpayers the clever manual dexterity of the ever-wagging finger and the ever-open, begging palm.

But frothing Euronutters don't want to debate dead imperial bullshit, at least not here.

paulo

I don't need to be lectured by YETANOTHER 25 yearr old Oxford PPE grad who was parachuted into a safe Conservative seat to demonstrate how DaveCam loves dem minorities.

About 80 Conservative MP's understand the meaning of democracy.

He isn't one of them

it's just a game to hims ilk.

James of Oxted

This all assumes that 27 countries (all in fiscal distress) are going to calmly put their vested interests aside for the common good. The very people that are responsible for this mess are now pushing us into a massive power grab to achieve their objective of a European Super State that no one voted for. They also want the UK to continue paying our £27 million a day to Europe even though we cannot afford it.

The world will not end if we distance ourselves from the European Parliamment, trade will go on and we will save a pile of cash.

I cannot say that I have met any East Surrey constituents that did not want a say.

So will Sam promise to support a vote on Europe when the time is right (if it ever is)

There is never going to be a good time

Mr L

I don't see a single good reason for this country to be a member of the EU (or the Commonwealth, come to that). Get ourselves shot of the EU, and preferably also Scotland, and England would be a great deal better off.

Simon Stephenson among others is right: for trimmers like this MP it will never be the right time to do anything. It is sheer humbug to say that we can change the EU from within: it's impossible. What is however possible is that if we genuinely threatened to leave we would have a lot more bargaining power if we wanted it.

Simon Stephenson.

ex-Tory Voter : 8.33pm

The Telegraph have published a voting list:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html

Boudicca

Cameron won't get a majority without his core Conservative Eurosceptic vote but he has spent a considerable amount of time and energy alienating the right-wing core of his Party. Party membership has plummeted and a large proportion of the Tory 'core' has left the Party and many have defected to UKIP. On the basis of yesterday's shenanighans, there it will stay.

The CONservative party constantly promises 'jam tomorrow' when it comes to the EU. But in CONservative world, tomorrow never comes and in the meantime, Cameron continues to handover power and acquiese to more and more demands from the EU, whether financial or otherwise.

He's not trusted. He will never BE trusted until he starts delivering and that means standing up to Clegg and forcing change. Because if he doesn't start delivering in this Parliament, he won't get another chance.

Verity

Sam Gyimah - "No-one wins a game of poker by revealing their hand at the start."

Gosh, I must write that down and remember it!

Hexhamgeezer

'No-one wins a game of poker by revealing their hand at the start'

This isn't a game of poker. Our hand is clear and open and intended to be so - something you seem unable to grasp or , more likely, purport not to. We want nothing to do with a dysfunctional dictatorial anti-democratic organisation that has cost us millions of jobs and £billions siphoned away in, for e.g, Brussels and Club Med corruption.

Who do you think you are kidding Mr Gyimah with this dissembling tosh?

ALL of the top concerns amongst polled voters are directly related to the EU and it's only weasels like yourself and Eurobot Clegg and Cameron that continue hide the link.
More evidence of the Specs decline

David Cockerham

If the objective is to stay in the EU but negotiate better terms for it and repatriate powers, it's screamingly obvious that holding a referendum now would be bad tactics - it would be more likely to damage than to improve the results of that negotiation. If on the other hand the objective is to get out of the EU a.s.a.p. regardless of what kind of improved terms it might theoretically have been possible to negotiate if we had stayed in, and regardless of how damaging that might be to the terms we are able to negotiate for our exit (and remember we will have to negotiate that too), then clearly the best tactic would be to hold a referendum on a single, simple in-or-out question now. It looks pretty clear to me that the real objective of the vast majority of those pushing for a referendum now is to get out of the EU a.s.a.p. regardless; they are perfectly happy to make it also, nonsensically, a referendum offering also the option of calling for re-negotiation because they have absolutely no desire to see a successful re-negotiation. It is perfectly honourable for them to do that since they clearly genuinely think that would be best for the UK, but why do they have to be so gratuitously abusive to those who genuinely believe the best thing is for the UK to maximise its chances of negotiating a better EU so the UK is able to remain inside it to its national advantage? Any anti-Tory media outlets wanting to do maximum damage to the image of the Conservative Party (and therefore to the chances of getting us out of the EU) need only arrange for all of the above and other intemperate comments of Spectator readers on postings such as this to be printed in bold type on their front pages and broadcast live on their news programmes hour after hour and day after day and spun as typifying the Tory mentality.

Martin C

Well he's right as far as it goes. A better time would have been just before the Lisbon treaty. An even better time, would have been just before the Maastricht treaty. The very best time would have been when it last happened in 1973, but we were sold a false prospectus. Our political leaders of the day, and the MSM (the BBC pretty exclusively in those days) lied to us. I am 55, and I voted in that referendum, and I voted For. I thought I was voting for an European free trade agreement called "The Common Market". It was even phrased as such in the very referendum question. But I wasn't. Had I known I was in fact voting for governance by an EU superstate to be unaccountable, and superior to any leader or government I might ever have a vote for, I would have voted No. And so would everyone else I knew, at the time.
We were lied to. We won't get fooled again. Give us our say.

Mark M

We shouldn't plan to hold a referendum because the EU MIGHT have a new treaty ready to go by then which the public MIGHT get to vote on? What kind of rubbish is this? There is no plan for a new treaty, just the waffling of a German. The EU leaders know the public is against them so they will use whatever they can come up with to prevent a new treaty.

As for this "give us time to reform the EU". Let's see a plan for it then. Let's have a timeline and a list of demands to be met. Then perhaps you'll see that reforming the EU is impossible. UK governments have been saying that the EU needs reform for years, yet none have ever managed to secure enough reform to be happy. There's either in, or there's out. 'Shake it all about' isn't a real option and you know it, even if you don't want to believe it.

FvH

Good boy Sam - nicely written and right on message - Team Cam will be very pleased with you - and in the Speccie too !!

lids

Presumably Sam is delighted now that his job prospects are soaring after the rebellion. Sycophancy rules eh Sam? Was your little "piece" edited by Cameron's "team"?

Yam Yam

"With Britain out of the EU, Washington may find that Paris and Berlin are more important to the transatlantic alliance than we are."

Dream on. This canard is wheeled out every time a new US president is finding his feet and his administration trying to stamp its mark on the world.

However, in every a crisis that it has had to face - from the Berlin Blockade to the toughest slogs in in Afghanistan - which country has proved to be the most reliable ally and confidant that the United States has been able to turn to?

Rhoda Klapp

Mark M, you are right. Let's wait and see what the answer is from the 'now is not the time' crowd. They do not even have an agenda for reform. They dare not have one. Perhaps the Spectator could ask the Europe minister, that useless lump of flesh, what his agenda for reform is. What, indeed, is the coalition's european policy?

Mike, Brighton

"we are all Eurosceptics now".

Yes in the same sense that Cam pretended to be a Eurosceptic and has now been found out about as Eurosceptic as Jose Manuel Barroso. Like yourself!

Ruairidh

It is a fair point to say that a referendum right now would tie HMG’s hands. However the motion the other night did no such thing. You appear to be intentionally missing the point.

It called on the government to bring forward a bill in the next session to propose one. It was also merely advisory. Cameroon could easily have left this as a free vote and then used the result as justification for a hard negotiation stance. He would effectively have a democratic mandate to negotiate for repatriation, in complete contrast to the lack of democratic manadate behind Merkel and Sarko pushing for fiscal union. He could have batted away referendum calls with the quite reasonable suggestion that negotiations were ongoing and that a referendum would be held on the results, even if powers were brought back.

PayDirt

Sam, please ignore all the raving nutters on this site. There are more outside this madhouse that agree with you, well I hope so otherwise I'm off to a saner country. If the comment on this site truly represents the modern Conservative Party, well it's finished that is clear, that is so obvious. It's up to Milliband now, the Tories are in real danger of chucking the baby out the bath.

Rhoda Klapp

PayDirt, he ain't reading that, he ain't coming back to counter any of the comments, and he is in a party composed half of nutters by your lights, in a country of 70% nutters. What saner country were you thinking of?

andrew

"just 1 per cent of voters regard Europe as the most important issue facing Britain today, well behind the economy, unemployment, immigration and crime"

Ummm, Europe is the root cause of economy, unemployment, immigration and crime problems.

you sir, have acted foolishly. Follow them off a cliff would you? Maybe you just did.

lids

PayDirt must be the only person in Britain who thinks Miliband holds electoral appeal.

PayDirt

70%? Well I fancy Brazil. Dynamic place, great future.

michael

Has it ever occured to any body that the reason our biggest customers are the EU lot is because they have made us uncompetitive wrt the rest?
no now is not the time
no not the time to shine
no not the time to claw back who we are
no no... not the time to be
- the mother of the free.
- Best stay crash strapped to a European car.

Simon Stephenson.

David Cockerham : 11.26pm

"but why do they have to be so gratuitously abusive to those who genuinely believe the best thing is for the UK to maximise its chances of negotiating a better EU so the UK is able to remain inside it to its national advantage?"

I don't think that I, personally, have been gratuitously abusive, but I have a lot of sympathy for those who have. For 40 years, those of us who are concerned with likelihoods rather than idealistic pipedreams, have been treated with utter contempt by the pro-EU brigade - a brigade which has no convincing intellectual arguments to promote its position of faith, and which therefore has chosen to resort to categorising its opponents as rebellious children, in order to justify treating its speculative position as something more concrete. This is exactly the same process that has been followed by the AGW fanatics, who, like the pro-EU brigade, seem to think that non-acceptance of their arguments is either a form of treason or else an example of infantile rebellion. In reality, it is not the questioning of opinions that is treasonous or infantile - it's the peddling of them as certainties.

The Remittance Man

Our national interest lies in reforming the EU so that it becomes a help rather than a hindrance to addressing our economic challenges at home.

And what happens if the eu doesn't want to be reformed? Britain is but one voice in a club of 27. What happens if the other 26 or even just a majority of them say no? And let's face it, this is a highly likely outcome.

What do we do then? I ask this because you can bet that in te sevral years it will take before even HMG wakes up and realises this is nothing but a pipe dream, the euros will have been doing everything in their power to lock Britain ever more tightly into the euro monstrosity. There's a damned good chance that the day we realise tat we can't reform the whole thing is also the day we realise we can't escape either.

I'm sorry, but the time has come to say farewell to te other 26, bid them God's speed on their collective journey and get out of the handbasket before it reaches Hades Central.

Simon Stephenson.

Mike, Brighton : 9.21am

"we are all Eurosceptics now".

You need to understand modern political deceit to decipher what this means.

Irrespective of what you actually are, in modern politics the important thing is to define yourself as being whatever the latest buzzword or catchphrase is which is receiving popularity. This all started with Clinton and Blair, who worked out that most people assume the good faith of their leaders, and that therefore, as leaders, they were missing a trick by describing themselves as what they actually were, rather than as what was most popular at the time. So they began to represent themselves as anything that would encourage people to vote for them, and they dealt with any scepticism by merely redefining the description they had used, so that it fitted in with what they actually were. This is an example of number 17 of Thouless's 38 dishonest tricks (*) - Changing the meaning of a term during the course of an argument.

So what "we are all eurosceptics now" really means is "we are all the same old EU apologists we always were, but for the time being at least, we're calling this position euroscepticism, because this will go down better with the latest public mood".

*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_and_Crooked_Thinking

The Remittance Man

By turning our back on Europe at this moment and becoming the equivalent of ‘Belgium with nukes’, we may find that, in the hard-headed world of international relations, our loss of influence would be greater than we anticipate.

Do what, Sammy? That's about the most ill-considered and illogical statement I've heard for a long time. It's certainly not one worthy of a Westminster MP.

To start with how in the name of the Ancient and Terrible Gods of Albion will the sixth or seventh largest economy in the world become an irrelevance like Belgium?

Far from losing "presence" and status getting out of the eu will actually enhance those things for Britain. Within that Godforsaken edifice Britain is increasingly becoming just one of the 27 and, thanks to Angular and Sarko, not the most influential.

Outside, with her economic muscle, her global trading links and all the advantages that sharing a common language and legal system entail, Britain has a powerful voice and international respect way beyond anything she'd receive if she was just Minor Island Province Number 13 of a failing behemoth (a postion the French would dearly love to force Britain into).

So what would you rather your country be, Sam? An independent nation state with areal voice in the world? Or something akin to Malta. Without the sunshine.

Rhoda Klapp

Simon, some good comments from you in the last couple of days.

I chased your link, and I find the fallacy we are seeing is not far from this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If-by-whiskey

Read it. Read the speech and imagine the voice of, say, W.C. Fields giving it. Well, it made me laugh.

Stephanie Tohill

A well written piece.

I must admit recently, although I still support the idea of a referendum, I do agree that at present, with the EU in a state of chaos, it seems ridiculous to have one know when we have no idea what the EU will look like soon.

Airey Belvoir

Stephanie, do you really think that the vote would lead to a referendum right now? If so, you have not been paying attention.

Herr Zootz-Natch

RE Airey Belvoir @ 3:33pm

I guess she prefers a broad brush approach.

Hepworth

The Spectator is to all intents and purposes a "conservative(with a small C)" publication. Why does it persist with an anti- majority of it's readership stance?
Have they had a horses head placed on their pillow and been given an offer they can't refuse, as have all Nationalists in my country?

ex-Tory Voter

Simon Stephenson: "ex-Tory Voter : 8.33pm
The Telegraph have published a voting list:"

I found one on the Express, thank you. It confirms that my MP did, indeed, vote against a referendum. I've already started making enquiries as to who will help me canvass against him.

There are also a couple more petitions for a referendum on the government site. I've been contacting friends to publicise those, too. After all, if the EU makes us vote again until we get the right answer, we might as well take a leaf out of their book!

JohnBUK

We haven't had a referendum on AV for a while - would it be the "right time" to have one now?

Simon Stephenson.

Rhoda Klapp : 12.23pm

Thank you.

The "If by whiskey" speech should be a compulsory study in all schools to draw the pupils' attention to the fact that there are usually good and bad consequences to everything, and that one should be open-minded until one has weighed the good against the bad. Maybe in this way we could turn round the present situation in which everything is prejudged as a result of parental, social or peer-group pressure; where this way of forming opinion is seen as completely natural; and where individual, open-minded assessment of good and bad, right and wrong, is seen as the preserve of cranks.

Harvey wallbanger

It seems Sam needs to get more in touch with the poeple of NE Surrey who I doubt would agree with the sentiment of this article. It might help if he demonstrated that he keeps to his promises I.e. to become a resident of NE Surrey - Or are you too busy to worry about local issues, people and keeping the promises you made. Such an unusal approach for our current crop of politicians (I think not)!!

Jim Burfied

"These relationships are complimentary"

They are complementary, don't you mean?

chris houghton

Read your reasons for beening a spineless tory, cant wait for elections

sclarke

"The latest figures from Ipsos Mori reveal that just 1 per cent of voters regard Europe as the most important issue facing Britain today, well behind the economy, unemployment, immigration and crime."
This is a totally specious argument as all four factors mentioned are in a parlous state because of our involvement in Europe, making our future continued membership the first priority for debate. I'm surprised that you're unable to comprehend this. Surely it's your job to bring this to the attention of the electorate in your constituency.

cuffleyburgers

You go on and on about renegotiation but it will never happen. Cameron is about as Eurosceptic as Barroso.

On one thing you are correct this is not the right time because the public is not yet angry enough to guarantee an Out vote, but the Eu is helpfully obliging us by doing all it can to shaft the economy, and ridicule (right, as it happens) our elected leaders.

In one year from now the EU will be gravely weakened and even more obviously a place we don't want to be.

the positive outcome of Monday's vote was that there was plenty of Eu sceptic comment even on the BBC - the MSM generally is starting to wake up to the insidious effect the EU is having - the main issues in the public mind, all are areas where in order to achive progress we have to leave the EU, and the public finally is starting to get this.

So mr traitor you can take your irrelevant, ill-informed opinions elsewhere, go and write for the grauniad, and prepare to lose your seat at the next election.