Daylight scrapping time
Peter Hoskin 1:20pm
Aha, the Spectator's cover story is gathering pace. If you were tuned into The BBC's Daily Politics just now, then you will have enjoyed a preview of the terrific scrap this time-shifting proposal could provoke. They had on both Rebecca Harris MP, who is pushing for us to move to Central European Time (CET), and Peter Hitchens, who revealed in his article for us that the government is minded to back the idea (as well as describing Harris as "one of those homogenised, UHT female Tory MPs"). The pair were, of course, mediated by Andrew Neil.
We shall try to secure video of the discussion, if possible. But, in the meantime, it's worth noting how Harris went out of her way to de-radicalise her position; emphasising that what is required is a "very comprehensive review across government departments" that considers both the arguments for and against, and determines which of those arguments is right. She also claimed that there would be economic benefits accruing from the move, were it to happen.
Hitchens, for his part, was understandably sceptical. He repeated his point in the latest Spectator: that this is both "a concession by David Cameron to Nick Clegg," and a "European
Union project". ("Absolutely ludicrous," said Harris in response.) And he also made a persuasive case that "it's not just highlanders and milk maids [who would be affected]
— it's absolutely everyone." As he puts it in his piece for us:
Anyway, I'd suggest you go to Hitchens' article for us as swiftly as your computer will carry you. Coming so soon after the debate over an In/Out referendum, here is a story that ranges across much of the same territory — and has similar potential to move the public too."That is why we cannot repeat the strange experiment of 1968–71, when we went halfway to Berlin. In October 1968, we did not put our clocks back as usual, but instead left them an hour ahead and stopped moving them at all thereafter. The resulting Stygian mornings in winter were loathed by all those who had to rise early. They were also followed by an increase in traffic deaths (not casualties as a whole, but deaths) which may have had something to do with the problems of children going to school on busy, poorly lit roads. Parliament, as is now forgotten, abandoned this unpopular mistake with great relief after three years."
UPDATE: Video added above.
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David Lindsay
October 28th, 2011 1:36pm Report this commentGMT is, for these Islands, proper time, with the sun at its height at noon. The amount of daylight has always varied from one end of the Kingdom to the other, but we have managed to get by. BST does no harm, I suppose. But any further deviation would be disastrous, as indeed it was when it was briefly tried. Nowhere should and must have Greenwich Mean Time more than Greenwich.
Our oldest ally, Portugal, uses the same time as us. For some reason, Gibraltar does not. But Saint Helena has GMT all year. There was once a very brief attempt at something called Saint Helena Island Time. It rapidly and rightly became known by its acronym, before it was rapidly and rightly abandoned.
Working people need daylight when they have to go to work in the morning, not in order to prolong their outdoor recreational activities in the late afternoon or the evening. But who asked them? America's so-called Daylight Saving Time has no been extended so many times that "normal" time now operates for only four months of the year, and even that is under threat. Golf and garden parties must always take priority.
DavidDP
October 28th, 2011 1:39pm Report this commentI thought Hitchen's article was meant to be a parade of an obessive Eurosceptic, given the subject matter of the leading articles this week.
You mean he was serious?
Rhoda Klapp
October 28th, 2011 1:45pm Report this commentWhy can't we have proper bread and circuses to distract us from what is going on, not this patently manufactured non-issue?
Publius
October 28th, 2011 1:58pm Report this commentAgree with Rhoda.
'Newspapers are unable, seemingly to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilization.' - George Bernard Shaw
commentator
October 28th, 2011 2:07pm Report this commentIt's time for a siesta. David DP's supercilious sneering is having the usual desired effect.....
Peter From Maidstone
October 28th, 2011 2:07pm Report this commentWhat are the odds on Cameron manging to find time for us to have a referendum on Daylight Saving.
toco
October 28th, 2011 2:08pm Report this commentGet a grip Fraser this is the sort of rubbish The Spectator can do without.The two H's merely show their true colours which I have to say are pretty tawdry.
Kevin Jones
October 28th, 2011 2:20pm Report this commentNever seen an explanation as to why the clocks go back about 55 days before the shortest day and forward 100 days after the shortest day towards end of March
Put the clocks back in early November and forward again in mid-February. Seems a reasonable compromise.
Karl Hungus
October 28th, 2011 2:21pm Report this comment"Coming so soon after the debate over an In/Out referendum, here is a story that ranges across much of the same territory — and has similar potential to move the public too"
Have a word, this has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union and the merits or otherwise of membership. Can we not debate the proposals in a mature way without such silly emotion, deliberately encouraging an irrational response.
MilkSnatcher
October 28th, 2011 2:21pm Report this commentHitchens' only valid point against the proposal is that it would be a Christmas present to Nick Clegg.
In2minds
October 28th, 2011 2:35pm Report this comment@Rhoda Klapp -
I agree, the attempts to divert us are laughable and child-like.
Russell
October 28th, 2011 2:51pm Report this commentInstead of going to Hitchens article as quickly as my computer allows, why doesn't the Spectator terminate all future work with the 'lunatic' and start writing about the things that people really care about.
The economics of being in the EU.
EU benefits = approx. £9billion per year cash from UK, £xx billions of exports, work opportunitis for all europeans in the UK, free healthcare and welfare for all europeans in the UK.
versus ?????
Dennis Churchill
October 28th, 2011 2:52pm Report this commentThis was one of those Harmonisation measures that are pre-planned. Unfortunately for the Eurocrats events have made anything with “European” in it poisonous.
Cogito Ergosum
October 28th, 2011 2:58pm Report this comment1. Take a look at the maps at "homepage.ntlworld.com/m.gorman/gmt4uk.htm".
At 8am (GMT) on 1st January, only Kent is in daylight. Most of England is at dusk; Scotland and Ireland are mostly dark.
2. Summertime is just a conspiracy by the busybodies to make us get up earlier in summer. The appropriate response is a loud snore.
Russell
October 28th, 2011 2:59pm Report this commentApologies, Hoskin not Hitchens!
Michael
October 28th, 2011 3:01pm Report this commentYet another reason for not voting for what poses as the Conservative party. It's run by and for our current masters in Europe and will do whatever they ask. And try getting children to sleep in the summer when it's daylight until midnight at GMT+2.
Stupid idea, didn't work in the 70s and a stupid experiment to repeat. But then we are run by the stupid.
StrongholdBarricades
October 28th, 2011 3:02pm Report this commentWhy does the country need a law to ensure that businessess change their times of opening?
If it is competitively advantageous to operate at CET, then surely most businesses would?
REPay
October 28th, 2011 3:22pm Report this commentThis move is a no-brainer. Economically it would pay dividends for london. Currently, a Munich based businessman can fly into London and out in a day. A London based businessman has to go to Munich and spend the night and money there...Also it is a criminal waste of daylight. Hitchens is plain wrong on this one!
Chris lancashire
October 28th, 2011 3:30pm Report this commentPredictably, Hitchens sees it as some Europlot which he is instinctively against. The "stygian" mornings were more than offset, in my opinion, by the brilliant evenings. And I would like to see his figures on road deaths, RoSPA believe the proposals will save lives.
I find a fairly safe position is believe the opposite of what Hitchens thinks.
michael
October 28th, 2011 4:03pm Report this commentFeeling depressed? Blame Euro-clock.- Great medicine... It brings on that referendum feeling.
alexsandr
October 28th, 2011 4:27pm Report this commentwe are bound by this
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0084:EN:HTML
Peter Harrison
October 28th, 2011 4:51pm Report this commentDoes no-one at the Spectator check facts? Traffic deaths went down during the 1968-71 experiment, not up.
The experiment was abandoned in the face of a campaign which focussed on accidents involving death or serious injury to children in the morning, which the campaigners blamed on the dark mornings. The larger reduction in children dying on the way home from school was, unsurprisingly, harder to get across to the public - it lacks the impact of a photo of a dead child and interviews with a grieving family.
Simon
October 28th, 2011 4:58pm Report this commentBefore the election Cameron and Gordon Brown both floated the idea of aligning UK time with Central European Time. So how does Cameron's statement that he is still considering this a concession to Nick Clegg?
Kingstonian
October 28th, 2011 5:12pm Report this commentalexsandr
October 28th, 2011 4:27pm
The directive requires that EU Member States implement their switch to and from Summer Time on the same date and time as each other (Last Sundays in March and October). It does not force Member States to be on the same time.
Peter From Maidstone
October 28th, 2011 6:17pm Report this commentKingstonian, and why should we be required to do that? And will we get any say on the matter, or will David Cameron again arrogate to himself absolute powers to determine how we live.
Mike Spilligan
October 28th, 2011 6:34pm Report this commentI remember the '68 to '71 experiment very well, living and working in London at that time. It was abysmal, even at 51.5N. The journey to work in the winter was colder and it didn't begin to get light until around 10 am. It must have been hell in, say, Manchester. In any case it had to be abandoned as it was so unpopular in practice.
I've checked the maps and find that the UK hasn't moved any further south or any further west since then - why should we be on the same time as Athens? We now have a business "window" of only 3 hours with the USA, and this will reduce it to two. Perhaps that's what some want.
All in all this proposal seems to be in aid of the "partying community" but not typical workers. Of course it's an MP proposing it and they generally don't start work until the afternoons.
Simon
October 28th, 2011 8:00pm Report this commentPeter from Maidstone - do you not agree that it is a lot simpler if the whole of the EU changes the clocks on the same date? Anyway, when the dates were harmonised, the rest of the EU agreed to move to the dates long used by the UK.
Cynic
October 28th, 2011 11:08pm Report this commentPlease no! I find it very hard to adjust to living an hour ahead of my body clock. It affects my sleeping, my circadian rhythms and my general well-being. I can't wait to get back to GMT. Don't tell me they are going to make it permanent.
Stephen Walker
October 30th, 2011 10:22am Report this commentI was under the impression that World War One is over, and so we don't need longer daylight working hours in the poorly (artificially) lit munition factories. We should go back to all-year GMT, since that accurately reflects our position on the globe.
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