Brown's attempt to pour oil on troubled waters will fail

Mike, Brighton

Er hang on. On Sunday I filled up my car with diesel at a princely £1.29 per litre, a total cost of nearly £90. I seems only a few short months ago I could fill up for just less than £50.
Of that £90 around 70% of it is tax or £63.
I give Brown no benefit of the doubt as high pump prices are entirely the fault of this rapacious government.

Max

As of yesterday, the price of petrol in Malaya was 1.92 Malayan Ringits per litre, that's 30p to you and I. So who is really the problem here, OPEC, the oil companies, or Gordon Brown?

Max

http://theerrorlog.blogspot.com/

Water

Well the waters aren't troubled he is, plauged with the inability to make the righ choices. Mike is very much right "I give Brown no benefit of the doubt as high pump prices are entirely the fault of this rapacious government".

John Page

Will that continue to be so cheap in Malaysia? Many Asian nations which had subsidised oil products have said they will be cutting or withdrawing those subsidies.

Ellen

The coverage of this on the news last night made me puke.

The tone of the BBC and Channel 4 throughout was "Will the government sacrifice the green agenda?" when the question many of us want posed instead is "Why is the government exploiting the (in my view misguided) green agenda to whack up taxes?"

This extra tax revenue isn't going to go the environment or anything else worthwhile. Why pretend it is?

Labour are like Little Britain's incontinent headcase, Anne. The taxes are simply sloshed out without a care in the world for value or worth and Labour looks at the electorate with a delighted air thinking its done the world a favour and with another incontinent spurt says: "Eh, Eh, ehhhh."

That Labour fool who wrote in the Telegraph yesterday (McShane?) has realised that the voters have twigged what junk our money is spent on, but still the mental patient flails about thinking we all think such repugnant waste is wonderful.

Chris Gilmour

Is not taxing oil the same as subsidising it?

Anyhoo, the price of crude oil has fallen by 5% in the last week, are we going to see this passed on to consumers?

Abolishing fuel duty completely would cost the treasury about a quarter of a Northern Rock, £25billion

john

A modest proposal: let the government estimate how much revenue it proposes to raise from fuel tax per period, and then put the tax rate on a sliding scale to adjust for periodic price changes in the commodity. Result: price stability. The objections can only be technical; an algorithm must surely be feasible.

Water

You can't help but feel for the haulage firms, they're having to lay off so many.

Cassius

John's suggestion certainly leads in the right direction.
The taxation amount, not the proportion, of the cost of each litre should be fixed. Any variation in price would then be attributable to and be clearly seen as from only the effects and machinations of the oil industry.
Fat chance!

Water

Hutton raised a good point the other day for “measures must be taken to insure those most at risk from fuel policy, going green cannot mean going without” so how will those at risk be facilitated for?

Commondog

Ellen.

"incontinent spurt"?

Is there any need?

My midday fondant fancy has now quite lost its allure.

john

Re: Cassius, whose post adds clarity to my proposal.

'Pence not percent!' could be the banner under which an astute politician might fight this one.

Water

http://stephenrees.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/we-do-not-pay-much-in-gas-tax-here/

A good graph from the Economist to put things into perspective.

Water

Max that actually is quite concerning, seeing as the UK comes in #14 (in terms of consumption) whilst Singapore comes in at #22!
link.

Water

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption

Water

Link

THX1138

Water- I don't buy all this whinging from the haulage firms. Firstly doesn't any increase in fuel costs effect them all therefore creating a cost level playing field & secondly if they do get any some kind "essential user" duty rebate all that will happen is that their customers will claw it back in by negotiating reduced prices "you just got 25% off your fuel bills well where's my share.?"

The biggest issue effecting the profitability of haulage co's is not the cost of fuel but over supply in the haulage market which means that another haulier will always do it cheaper. Lowering the cost of fuel will do nothing to change the basic economics of the industry too many trucks chasing to little work driving down the price.

THX1138

I think that fuel is a good way to raise taxes irrespective of the green agenda . You can choose a more fuel efficient vehicle; you can choose to walk to the shops, school or work. Unlike income tax people have a choice how much fuel they use & therefore how much tax they pay.

Commondog

"I think that fuel is a good way to raise taxes irrespective of the green agenda . You can choose a more fuel efficient vehicle; you can choose to walk to the shops, school or work."

Not saying I completely disagree with it but to me your statement is 100% green agenda?

Also, one gripe of the British Hauliers is that UK fuel is taxed at higher rates than that in Europe, thus giving unfair advantage when pitching for continental trade or increasingly, when they pitch for internal UK trade.

A fair gripe surely, unless unbridled globalisation is your bag of course. The loss of a national industry never did anyone any harm I suppose.

Nicholas

THX1138: "You can choose a more fuel efficient vehicle; you can choose to walk to the shops, school or work. Unlike income tax people have a choice how much fuel they use & therefore how much tax they pay."

Incredible arrogance. I suppose that those who live and work in the country where the public transport is crap and the post offices are closing in many villages should move into the cities? And those who cannot afford to buy a new car should just do without? There is no choice agenda in a retrospective tax going back to 2001.

Not everyone is a green, left-wing gerbil who can cycle everywhere in lime-green lycra wearing a stupid pointed hat. There are older, poorer, less mobile people who are car dependent. With the consolidated assault of fuel rises, road tax rises and the death of rural post offices they are going to be "Victimised By Labour" ©.

Those green fascists who stereotype the population and exaggerate the opportunities for choice are discriminating against a large proportion of the population.

Of course we know that Labour ignores the rural communities completely - unless they happen to be in Wales or Scotland.

Nicholas

And I have long suspected this country is riddled with ageism, THX1138. You have just confirmed it. Not all retired people have healthy pensions and buy new cars every year. Many who would like to still be working have been kicked out of their jobs for the crime of being over 50.

THX1138

Commondog- Hi & welcome you do seem to be making some interesting contributions. I'm not promoting a green agenda par se although I do think we need to use less fossil fuel for all sorts of reasons rather I'm promoting a choice agenda. Taxing fuel does give people more choice about how much tax they pay than any income based tax. If this Government or any Government was to drastically lower tax on fuel they would only have to make up the shortfall somewhere else which probably lower my personal choice of how much tax I pay.

Hauliers in the UK may gripe about fuel being taxed at a higher rate in the UK but as I said the real problem is over capacity in the industry & cut throat competition between rival firms not the fuel price.

No doubt they would be whinging about some of the other larger taxes & pensions costs they would have to bear if they were based in France or Germany for instance. I believe in markets & competition If a French company can move my goods around cheaper so be it & if a few UK hauliers go to the wall because they are inefficient & badly managed it will improve the prospects for those that are left.

THX1138

Nicholas- Hi. My point wasn't arrogant it was a fact you can choose a a more fuel efficient car whether you live in city or the country it's simple you just sell the one you have and you buy another one It need no cost you a penny more in capital cost but will save you money in tax from fuel & VED.

I have just made that choice & sold my gas guzzler & bought a second hand fuel efficient car for about the same price not as "green, left-wing gerbil " nice phrase by the way but as person who chooses to pay less tax & I was glad of the choice.

I'm at a loss to see how the agreed car dependency of some rural communities effects the car they choose to drive you can drive fuel efficient vehicles in the country too & yes of course those that can't afford a new car should do without what do you suggest they get a car on the state?

Does any one really believe in their heart of hearts that a change of Government is going to make the slightest bit of difference to fuel prices?

Wasn't the dread fuel tax escalator brought in by Ken Clarke?

Dave can't do anything about world commodity prices & if you believe in markets neither should he. With forward price of gas for next winter at 80p a therm (45p now) & oil heading inexpiably to $200 a barrel the end of cheap energy is over we had all better get used to it & start using less of it & driving further on a litre of it whether we live in the town or the country.

john

The conviction that a green tax is a fair tax is no more logical than the statement that cleanliness is next to godliness. But how the short-sighted liberal plays eternally into the hands of big money, public or private, seldom to the good of economic or social welfare.

Nothing personal.

Commondog

THX1138.

My activity this couple of days down to me being stuck in the house and bored schitless. Back to work tomorrow so won't pester.

Joking aside, I am actually relieved that the long overdue bump down to Earth regarding fuel costs, has finally got here.
Just don't like the way UK seems to be put on the slab big style on so many occasions.
It's because we are soft and dumb.

BTW are you connected to the 1138s of Arundel by any chance?

john

A further point on the modest proposal. It turns out that Conservatives have been blogging on these lines for a while now. Check it out http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/05/a-price-stabili.html, but little ideas like this (remember the two-day wonder, single-rate Income Tax?) do tend to wither on the opposition vine do they not?

They say that anything is easy to those who don't have it to do.

Nicholas

Er, let me get this straight. I sell my car to someone else and buy a more fuel-efficient one for the same price? My gas-guzzling car (actually it's not but I'll play along) is still on the road being driven by someone else.

You don't think that perhaps the retrospective tax might just affect the asset values in the used car market? Isn't that what Labour rebels are already banging on about?

I can see only cynical, manipulative taxation here. And even if I did believe the climate change zealots the taxation "logic" does not stack up.

What a very strange age we live in. Full of noisy, strident people who want to control and impact the lives of others "for their own good". Great if you happen to be in one of New Labour's many weird client groups but not so good for everyone else.

"Does any one really believe in their heart of hearts that a change of Government is going to make the slightest bit of difference to fuel prices?"

Yep. And lots of other differences too. Maybe we can regain some real choice, some real liberty and some real freedom from this East German circa 1960 style government and its dreadful "leader". At least there is hope. Which is more than can be said for life under the New Labour yoke. Isn't that the message of the local elections, C&N and London which, even now, New Labour are too thick, too arrogant or too deluded to understand?