The new landscape

Fergus Pickering

PR will mean that some ghastly Nick Clegg will hld permanent office in a coalition government. The only way to get rid of him will be to ssassinate him. Hum?

Gemma

In other words, we know we're on our way out so now we want to hamstring any future Conservative government from unravelling the unholy mess we've put you all in.

Steve Richards is a deeply bitter socialist on a loss making newspaper. Just as he thinks the lack of popularity of the very bit of rubbish he works on gives it and him some validity so he thinks the same for the poisonous left-wing political elite who have no popular support should barge on ruining the country.

And the love the way he says the only person who matters is Rupert Murdoch. My foot. It isn't Rupert Murdoch whose stolen my hard-earned money in taxes for the last 10 years.

Ian C

The irony is had Kinnock won the '92 election Portillo would have been elected as new Tory leader and won the 96/97 election as Labour split aunder after Black Wednesday (would have happened a month earlier if Labour was in power). Portillo would be handing over about now to W Hague or perhaps one D Cameron.

Cameron however, is no Kinnock! So the idea that he will be a push over single-termer is unlikely.

Prayerful Perry

Mz. Prudence of Noo-Lie-Bore : she for whom pundits once penned plaudits, now should heed the proportion of the population praying for her to push-off.

John Page

Steve Richards' piece is hilarious. He suggests that Brown "could pledge a referendum on electoral reform immediately after the next election and promise that he would campaign in favour of change."

And after he reneged on Labour's last referendum pledge, who do you think would believe a word?

David C

The Peter Wilby article might as well be called 'gesture politics for beginners'.
How is it supposed to work - magic?
As for Labour 'finding its socialist soul', I thought vampires didn't have them (I remember the measures promoted by Wilby being definitively staked in 1983).

Fergus Pickering

If the Guardian did not exist it would be necessary for Tories to invent it. However, fortunately it is there already. More Wilby is just what the doctor ordered. Should keep us in power till at least 2025, by which time Boris will have been PM for quite some time.

Water

"Cameron however, is no Kinnock! So the idea that he will be a push over single-termer is unlikely." I'd have to agree about old Dc there he's no push over.

Penfold

Wonderful, we get PR we will end up like Italy. A constantly revolving coalition of mediocrity peopled by professional second rate political hacks whose sole aim is to line their pockets.
It won't matter, because we will be governed by Brussels, decisions taken by the commission and its Commissars, who will wield the real power, whilst the EU Parliament is marginalised as a nodding donkey.
It would serve all well if the outcome of PR in the first instance is a landslide for the BNP and UKIP.

Gavin

Steve Richards says widespread disillusionment exists in politics - only on the left.

King Prawn

Crikey, we have had the likes of James McIntyre, Kevin Maguire and James Wilby all calling on Mr Bean to go back to the Seventies.

Yes, those memorable days of the 3 day week, the winter of discontent, the exodus of high earners because of excessive tax rates.

Sounds like a recipe for permanent opposition. I remember Blair in his last couple of conference speeches cautioning against such an action.

I knew Mr Bean could hold together the coalition that Blair had built. Even I did not expect it to disintegrate so quickly.

The big question, which I have stated in other posts, is whether the Labour Party will split in two. Will the Blairites see permanent opposition on the horizon, as the left re-take control of the Labour Party, and desert to form their own party?

Talia

What about the system currently in place: the "catastrophic electoral bias", in Peter Oborne’s words. Why don't the Tories make more of a fuss about “the grotesque injustice that tilts the electoral system massively in favour of the Labour party and against everyone else”?

David

You think Brown would wait for an election to try to change the electoral system? Fat chance. He'd try to do it now to make sure he wins the next one. It'd be great to see him try, because it would absolutely kill the Labour party.

Matt

Funny that the anti-PR lobby always cite Italy as an example of what can go wrong, but don't talk about countries like Germany that have stable coalition governments under PR.

Matthew Blott

@ Matt

Agreed, Italy is the only example that ever gets cited. Most liberal democracies across the globe use either PR or a form of the transferable vote system.

Fergus Pickering

The Americans don't. We don't. Who cares about Johnny Foreigner eh?

Nick Kaplan

Matt and Mathew; the problem with PR is not that it produces unstable governments (although it often does) the problem is that it’s advocates totally misconceive the point of an election. According to the advocates of PR the point of an election is to represent and aggregate the interests and views of all those who are voting. But public choice/ game theory has shown this to be impossible, there is no reasonable way of aggregating votes and no reasonable electoral system that can achieve this. Instead the point of an election is, as the name suggests, to elect or to remove a government. FPTP does this far better than PR because it produces one party governments that can implement a particular set of policies (the ones they put forward in the election) and be held to account at the next election for the success or failure of said policies. Under PR no government can be held to account for its policies as no single party is responsible for them (such policies being a product of a coalition). In addition nobody gets what they voted for because it’s left to politicians to decide amongst themselves who forms the government, through some bargaining process, instead of letting the electorate choose on the basis of whose ideas are most popular. Furthermore PR gives disproportionate influence to minority parties who invariably hold the balance of power. So don’t be fooled by Lib Dem propaganda; they don’t want PR on grounds of principle (there aren’t valid principled grounds on which to support it), instead they desire it in the knowledge of the disproportionate influence it would give them as a third party which would be a necessary member of any government.

TGF UKIP

Penfold I always get uncomfortable when people couple UKIP and the BNP in the same sentence as though they had something in common. It's a favourite New Labour, New Tory and BBC trick. The BNP is a LEFT WING Party, even more left wing than the Cameron Tories, (just visit their website.) On the other hand UKIP is, currently, Britain's only conservative party and that's why I'm so grateful to them for providing a repository for my vote.

Nick Kaplan

TGF; whilst I disagree with your contempt for Cameron, you are certainly right that the BNP is a left wing party, as have been all fascist parties throughout history. I have never understood how we on the right have allowed deeply collectivist fascist movements to taint the individualist right by association. It’s a point rarely made, but one that needs regular expression.

Paul B

Nick Kaplan at 7.49hrs

Hear Hear Sir, National Socialist Party party I believe was title of Hitlers party and from where did Mosely emanate?

Baldwin

Ian C (12.24pm) makes a good point that if Labour had been in power they would have had their own Black Wednesday.

When we entered the ERM most of the Country though it was the essential thing to, or be left behind, etc, etc...

TGF UKIP

Paul B, this is a point that the good Lord Tebbit makes unceasingly, especially when some lefty BBC type refers to "Hitler and other right wing dictators."

Nick Kaplan

Paul B; Mussolini was also a socialist before he became a fascist, it’s a common theme. I believe it’s a product of the leftist belief that the state or ‘nanny’ or Mr. Stalin or Mr. Hitler know best. They’re all variants on the same theme; that the collective is more important than the individual and thus the individual, his liberty and his property may be sacrificed for the benefit of others, at the behest of an all knowing elite.

Nicholas

" . . that's why I'm so grateful to them for providing a repository for my vote."

Unfortunately a wasted vote. You voted for the unattainable ideal rather than the achievable improvement.

Nick Kaplan

The most vial aspect of the left’s portrayal of fascism as a right wing ideology is the wide-spread denunciation of conservative view-points by people who say they are fascist. The other day I was discussing Clarence Thomas the Republican Supreme Court Justice with a left-wing friend, whose first comment was “he’s a fascist.” Somewhat bizarrely the reason why my friend suggested he was a fascist was because Thomas believes that people should not be given benefits. So by my friends reasoning Thomas is a fascist because he doesn’t want people to be dependent on an overgrown state. Next he will be saying he’s a racist because he believes in appointing people on the basis of their ability rather than their skin colour....Oh wait, he did; he went on to say Thomas is a racist because he doesn’t believe in affirmative action.

Paul B

Thank you to Nick & TGF for the above, I shall constantly refer to your explanations when discussing politics with friends. At present acquaintances look aghast when I refer to the fascist left as if the term is an oxymoron, which it plainly isn`t.

Nick.. Without googling, I believe Thomas was appointed by Bush senior or was it even dear old Ronnie? A black man I believe, who caused the left much befuddlement, as he did not follow the causes the left believes a Black man should conform to -see how they pigeon hole/stereotype people. Thats a challenge for DC, to get aspirational working/middle class black people to vote for the Tory, for too long, Labour has assumed they have their support(co-incidentally I believe, the Indian British vote is starting to migrate to Tory's-no firm evidence, just my observations when speaking to friends of that decent.