How ambitious is Cameron on Europe?
Fraser Nelson 2:45pm
Someone forgot to pack his handbag. We heard yesterday that David Cameron has
agreed to let Merkel pursue full fiscal union – and in return she will... drum roll please... let him repatriate parts of the Working Time Directive. There's nothing official from Number
10, but the well-informed Ben Brogan suggests this morning that this could well be
Britain's price for agreeing to Merkel's deal.
If so, this would be an opportunity squandered on a massive – perhaps historic – scale. Let's recap. Cameron is in an incredibly powerful position: leading a government which is, in defiance of public opinion, giving £9 billion of overseas aid to EU member states each year. That's more than we give to all third world countries put together, and more than any country other than Germany. We're one of the biggest and most gullible paymasters of Europe: surely we can make better demands than this? Especially since relations with the EU are governed by the Lisbon Treaty, on which the British public were promised a referendum. Cameron is on record describing it as 'wrong' and William Hague famously said 'we would not let it rest there'.
Hague never finished this sentence. But did he really mean 'we would not let it rest there – we will push for partial repatriation of the Working Time Directive'? It's time we were told. For years, Cameron has refused to level with the British people about just what he wants to achieve from a European Union of which now only a minority – 41 per cent – believe we should be a member. I'm in that minority, by the way, but the issue here is basic honesty. Is this partial WTD release really Cameron's endgame? Does he feel this is the best he can do in the circumstances? If so, he should say so.
There may be another factor. Cameron has chosen as his negotiator Sir Jon Cunliffe, Brown's former chief EU adviser. One can have a fair guess at where his sympathies lie. A while back, I was on
BBC Politics Show talking about this with Julian Lewis MP. He had this to say:
This Merkel deal will do little to assuage concerns in parliament. But it's wider concerns that matter. Reporting of European issues tends to ignore public opinion and portray the subject as a story of Tory splits. The implication is that the Prime Minister is only trying to assuage the swivel-eyed Tories. It is, perhaps, worth reprinting the EU's own polling showing what the British public think of what's being done in their name. Those of us who want to save Britain's EU membership can no longer pretend that ours is a majority position.'At the moment, we have negotiating for us in Europe Jon Cunliffe as the most senior civil servant – and he was the man who signed us up to the EU-wide bailout. So it's difficult to see how we're going to get anything except the managing of ministers' expectations, splitting the difference. If you want serious repatriation of powers, you need someone who has the confidence of parliament in there negotiating, really trying to bring things back.'
Previous
Duyfken
November 21st, 2011 3:03pm Report this commentIs it not time or even past time for the Conservatives to be rid of this useless administration? Scrap the Coalition and find somebody else to lead the Party - somebody who has the will and guts to deal properly with Europe, and not pander incessantly to Merkozy & co, nor to that blight over Britain: Clegg.
Dave B
November 21st, 2011 3:05pm Report this comment"...the EU's own polling showing what the British public think of what's being done in their name"
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/7253443/time-to-leave-the-eu.thtml
Hugo Chav
November 21st, 2011 3:06pm Report this commentFraser,
I've jacked in my party membership and at the next election, for the first time, I will vote UKIP.
dobbin
November 21st, 2011 3:07pm Report this commentRedwood.
normanc
November 21st, 2011 3:14pm Report this commentThe EU plays the long game, full fiscal union in return for a paltry opt-out that will be given away in a few years time anyway.
Golf clap.
normanc
November 21st, 2011 3:17pm Report this commentLeaving aside how (or not) ambitious Cameron is at least we'll all get our say thanks to the famous, if not infamous, 'triple lock referendum'.
Or will we be treated as mugs by politicians yet again.
Answers on the back of a postcard to 'Dept. of the bleeding obvious'
strapworld
November 21st, 2011 3:21pm Report this commentWhen you have that old hasbeen Heseltine telling us all that we will be in the Euro eventually, then discover that Cameron is 'consulting' him! When Mr Nelson writes that our negotiator is one Sir Jon Cunliffe, one should now realise where Cameron's favour lies.
Cameron is not being honest with the people. It is as simple as that. He has lied to us from before the general election with his cast iron promise- written in The Sun! and in his speech. Aided and abetted by that man of straw, Hague. His recent speech when Cameron told us he was a eurosceptic was total Enid Blyton.
He is totally controlled by Clegg. A man who leads a rump of a political party, yet whom has enormous power over Cameron. This is because, in my opinion, Cameron is a weak man who just loves being PM and will do and say anything to remain there.
My serious concern is that politicians from Heath/Wilson onwards have not told the people the truth. Are we far deeper in the mire, which is the EUSSR, than we have been told? I believe so.
How long will those Tory MP's who voted for the referendum allow themselves and the party they belong to be led by this weak man?
Time for them to start the procedure for challenge to Cameron, leave and start The Real Tory Party or join Ukip and become rather larger than the Lib Dems in parliament and, thus, able to ask questions, each week, at PMQ's.
The Country needs people who will question the role of the EUSSR in parliament on a far more regular and forensic scale.
Mr Nelson's last sentence is one I never thought he would write.
oldtimer
November 21st, 2011 3:26pm Report this commentIf you had a chart showing trust in Cameron on EU issues, it probably would show equally dire ratings. He now has demonstrable form on the subject. I, for one, do not trust him. If all he has to offer is a single crumb from the table, then it will not be enough.
There is a case to be made for a more rubust engagement with the other EU members than this coalition, its PM or its official i/c negotiations appear to have attempted. If the UK really is regarded as an insufferable partner by other EU members we would be better served out of it altogether. It has made an extraordinary hash of running its affairs.
perdix
November 21st, 2011 3:31pm Report this commentIf we don't know exactly what changes some in the EU want to achieve, surely the government should not go public on its potential bargaining stance.
Vulgar
November 21st, 2011 3:34pm Report this commentWhen even a 'reasonable' and 'moderate'pro EU Tory like Fraser writes with barely suppressed anger and scorn at Dave's weak lies you know that the game is up for Cameron.
Just what is the Tory party waiting for: junk this desperate feebleton and his bodyguard of lies, elect someone - anyone, Boris, Redwood, David, Brady - who is not Neville Camerlain and go to the country on a 'Britain: free nation or EU German province?' ticket and watch the votes roll in.
Forget the LDs- they will be annihilated anyway. It's UKIP Tories will worry about.
Yam Yam
November 21st, 2011 3:35pm Report this commentPathetic.
Come back, Maggie, all has long since been forgiven (principally because YOU WERE RIGHT!).
Verity
November 21st, 2011 3:38pm Report this commentDuyvken - Not just useless, but lethal.
I wonder if Cameron has the lowest IQ of any of our PMs. Everything he does is as obvious as the slyness of a greedy six-year old. I find him utterly creepy. And an utter creep.
And that blancmange face is so empty, it's eerie.
In2minds
November 21st, 2011 3:41pm Report this comment"an opportunity squandered......"
Only a fool would have expected more from Cameron.
Mudplugger
November 21st, 2011 3:48pm Report this commentCast-Iron Cameron is not smart enough, cunning enough or principled enough to take on that corrupt bunch of self-serving anti-democrats centred in Brussels.
Redwood, Carswell, David Davis or Philip Davies - any of them would do a better job of protecting and promoting British interests while expunging the original Heath treachery. So how can we make it happen ? And soon !
Boudicca
November 21st, 2011 3:51pm Report this commentCameron has failed completely. What a weak, pathetic specimen of a Prime Minister he is.
The men in grey suits should pay him a visit PDQ because he is going to lose them the next General Election, just like he lost the last one.
The country is overwhelmingly EU-sceptic and wants to leave the EU or at the very least an IN/OUT Referendum. He is either completely out of touch with public opinion or so arrogant he thinks he can ignore it.
The electorate must teach him a lesson.
The CON-elite have got to understand that with 'Call Me Chamberlain' at the helm and the pro-EU policy he is persuing, they will lose the next GE. Vote UKIP and better still join the party and campaign for it. Until they realise that they will never again get a majority, or even govern in coalition, they will not bow to public opinion.
michael
November 21st, 2011 3:51pm Report this commentNational referendums on the
European Constitution (LISBON)
Czech Republic Cancelled
Denmark Postponed
France No by 55%. 69% turnout.
Ireland Cancelled
Luxembourg Yes by 57%. 88% turnout.
Netherlands No by 62%. 63% turnout.
Poland Postponed
Portugal Postponed
Spain Yes by 77%. 42% turnout.
United Kingdom Postponed
Wikipedia can be a bit iffY ...nevertheless
no worse than the somewhat hopeful eurostats in that popularity graph.
Bruce, UK
November 21st, 2011 4:19pm Report this commentHow ambitious is Cameron on Europe?
Commissioner?
High Representative?
President of the European Council?
President of the European Commission?
Surely "Cast Iron" Dave has it all to play for?
TrevorsDen
November 21st, 2011 4:20pm Report this commentWell we are not in the Euro so getting anything in return for something which is not our business is a good deal.
Equally if we were not in the EU we would probably have to sign up to the equivalent of the WTD in order to be a part of its free trade area. In case people had forgotten there is a tarrif barrier around the EU.
Not being in the EU does not require the EU countries to be nice to us.
TrevorsDen
November 21st, 2011 4:21pm Report this commentMr Chav - are you prepared for a labour govt then?
Thats the reality of the outcome of your fatuous fantasy.
TrevorsDen
November 21st, 2011 4:24pm Report this commentYam Yam - Thatcher signed us into the single market.
Verity
November 21st, 2011 4:25pm Report this commentAnd now they have invited that proud major player in British and European history, Turkey, to join.
I believe that they are trying to rid Europe and the minds of Europeans, of Christianity. Religiocide.
Publius
November 21st, 2011 4:27pm Report this commentTime for Cameron to deliver or clear out.
I see he has given yet another of his 'it's all too difficult' speeches - this time to the CBI.
If it's too difficult, Mr Cameron, then go and let someone else do what you cannot or will not.
TrevorsDen
November 21st, 2011 4:29pm Report this comment'cameron is totally controlled by Clegg' - this is such open rubbish that one has to wonder at the chutzpah of you writing that down.
Good old hysteria rides again. The Euro has nothing to do with us. The fact that it is in a mess certainly is.
The EU and the Euro are not going to go away. The fact that they are in a mess does not make any difference. Not being in the EU would make a marginal difference to us. None of which prevents me saying that Hsltine's and Ashdown's comments today were very bit a crass as some of the ones on this thread.
Publius
November 21st, 2011 4:31pm Report this commentTrevorsDen writes to Hugo Chav:
"Mr Chav - are you prepared for a labour govt then?"
Well I can tell you this, TrevorsDen. If Labour would get us out of this vile EU charade, they would get my vote.
As for Cameron, his EU policy is as bad as Brown's. Possibly worse. And I don't know about you, but I'm sick to the back teeth of being lied to on this.
Boudicca
November 21st, 2011 4:36pm Report this commentTrevorsDen
There is virtually NO difference between the LibLabCON. Vote for any of them and you get Government by the EU.
That 'vote UKIP get Labour' CON isn't going to work any more. Cameron gave away to the EU the power of Budgetary Oversight despite the fact we are outside the Eurozone: the Commissars won't allow another Moron-style spending splurge, regardless of what Deadwood and Balls think.
Hugo Chav
November 21st, 2011 4:45pm Report this commentTrevorsDen,
You love to throw your little insults, it betrays your intelligence.
Chris Rose
November 21st, 2011 5:04pm Report this commentCameron should have told Merkel that fiscal union will be a disaster for Germany. Closer integration will make matters worse and will land Germany with huge liabilities. As an outsider and a major paymaster of the EU, Britain is the one country in a strong position to tell Germany the truth.
As for repatriating powers, it's a lost cause. Clegg is absolutely right: it can't be done. In order to get powers back, we shall have to negotiate with 26 countries and get each one's agreement. It's an impossible task.
The only way to solve the problems of the Euro is to dismantle it, otherwise it will break up catastrophically, and if that happens, as Angela Merkel has said, the EU will break up too. (I wouldn't shed a tear for that, but she might.)
Independent countries must have their own currencies. Many people fear a strong German currency. I cannot understand that. It's an undervalued German currency that's causing all the trouble.
Heartless Perry, a Curmudgeon
November 21st, 2011 5:07pm Report this commentLike his Hero, the H2B is phoney, - through and through.
"Biggest and most gullible" is spot on Fraser.
cuffleyburgers
November 21st, 2011 5:13pm Report this commentDon't say you didn't expect it because it was was predicted.
Cameron is not eu scpetic when will you understand. HE IS A PART OF THE SAME CONSPIRACY.
He is a traitor.
HE talks of repatriating powers - something which does not exist and is specifically excluded from the Acquis cumunitaire.
If he wanted he could reclaim our sovereignty tomorrow, be he won't not because he's a coward (he may be but it not the reason) nor because he's stupid (he may be but that is not the reason either), but because his agenda is to further the integrationist cause.
Don't listen to what he says, just loo what he does (or doesn't).
It's clear enough.
He has to go.
Anna
November 21st, 2011 5:15pm Report this commentPrior to the EU referendum debate in Parliament, I wrote to my MP Jeremy Hunt expressing the hope that he would reflect the views of the majority of the constituents who elected him to represent them and vote in favour of the motion. I knew it was an exercise in futility, so I wasn't the least surprised by his eventual reply which amounted to little more than a justification of why he should vote in direct contravention of his constituents' views and an explanation of why his constituents are wrong in those views. Heigh ho, so what's new! However, it ended with the immortal words "I am more than happy to discuss this with you further." Well I sat on that for a while and responded after we had seen the toppling of two elected governments, and an abject demonstration of the contempt in which the EU holds democracy, asking if Mr Hunt still held to his previous views. Clearly he is not at all happy to discuss it with me further, because his response is conspicuous by its absence!
I can't say at this stage that I won't vote for the Conservatives at the next election, almost anything could happen between now and then, but it is rapidly becoming a thought that I have never previously entertained.
James
November 21st, 2011 5:17pm Report this comment"Mr Chav - are you prepared for a labour govt then?
Thats the reality of the outcome of your fatuous fantasy."
What's the difference?
Dennis Churchill
November 21st, 2011 5:21pm Report this commentTrevorsDen
November 21st, 2011 4:20pm
So you think the tariff would improve our £30 odd billion a year deficit with the EU?
There would be a lot of pressure from them for us to lower it but...
Dennis Churchill
November 21st, 2011 5:23pm Report this commentNot even Cameron is so out of touch not to realise a deal like the one described would destroy him politically.
Hexhamgeezer
November 21st, 2011 5:34pm Report this commentIs it a Bird, Is it a Plane? No it's, KAPPOW!! BLAMMM!!! Chinless Wonderman!
Marvel! how he hands over even more money for invisible olive groves. Gasp!! as he makes cast iron promises vanish. Shiver!!! in terror at his spine chilling "I'm a right Eursosceptic, me" face.
TGF UKIP
November 21st, 2011 5:36pm Report this commentThe most surprising thing about this post, is that its author seems to be surprised.
One of these days reality might just dawn, Fraser, though I don't really hold out much hope. You nailed your colours to Jellyman's mast far too firmly, and now you patently daren't confess to your error.
Tarka the Rotter
November 21st, 2011 5:41pm Report this commentSo this is what poses as statesmanship in the 21st century? Well, it stinks. We have a representative democracy? How can it be representative if it doesn't actually represent the views of the majority of the people living in this country who want out of the EU? For once Cameron was dealt a decent hand and could have called Merkel's bluff on so many levels, but no - she was playing poker and he was angling to get Mr. Kite the Shop Steward. Laughable? I wish it was. Time we all learned how to belly dance and slice kebabs...
Halcyondaze
November 21st, 2011 5:45pm Report this commentVote UKIP. Tell anyone that will listen that that's what you're going to do and that that's what they should do. Cameron has revealed himself as a liar and a gravy-train-er in waiting. He has lost the trust of the people. The Tories are now just as bad as Labour and the Lib Dems - and I'm a former Conservative voter. This country is now at absolute crisis point and people are at last starting to wake up. We want a major transfer of powers back from Europe, strong controls on immigration, and an end to the human rights disaster. Exactly what the Conservatives should be doing - but won't. Vote UKIP.
Holly ......
November 21st, 2011 5:45pm Report this commentWe can still play our national anthem, slag each other & the government off, in public,
and, call European leaders all the names under the sun, while still expecting our reps to come back with bags full of goodies.
We can still disagree with each other over our political preferences.
So we can't do certain things at work and have to follow certain other things.
Big deal.
I wouldn't mind the UKIP/LETS GET OUR COUNTRY BACK, brigade if we had really lost our country to Europe.
How have we got to where we are?
Lib/Lab/Con governments...Who the people of this country elected....Here! In the UK!
NOTHING to do with Europe at all.
We can vote for whoever we want...and most of the time we do, usually not just on a single issue ticket.
Once UKIP and the great Farage understand the British electorate expect more from a government than just EU stuff, more people might listen.
Farage simply dog whistles to the few.
If every EU rule & regulation was cancelled,
my god I bet some of them would be re-enacted, just so the 'Farage government' had some reason for being.
We don't all want to be out of Europe and, those who do are perfectly entitled to vote accordingly, but please stop with the wailing about Cameron & the Lib/Lab/Con crap.
The VAST majority in this country voted for one of these three parties and, therefore should not be made to feel like a traitor or ignorant or stupid for doing so.
We vote with our eyes wide open.
Phew! That's better.
Ian Walker
November 21st, 2011 5:48pm Report this commentI'd like to say unbelievable, but sadly it's nothing but inevitable.
TGF UKIP
November 21st, 2011 5:59pm Report this commentSaint Duncan Smith to Farage on Question Time in October - "The Government has given the public a referendum on ANY future treaty"
Will the saint actually resign this time and who would bet on it?
BTW, Fraser and the other Camerluvvies certainly won't like this:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/housing-market-is-pretty-much-all-we-have-left%252c-admits-cameron-201111214570/
TrevorsDen
November 21st, 2011 6:10pm Report this commentDream on Boudicca et al. Dim right wingers voting UKIP will help Labour. Labour will promise everything - but do you believe them after they lied about a referendum.
This blog has degenerated into a bunch of loony tune obsessives - stop believing in your own rants and get back to the real world.
ex-Tory Voter
November 21st, 2011 6:20pm Report this commentHow ambitious is Cameron on Europe? Well, very, I'd say. He wants, after he's handed the UK over, to be appointed one of the elite as a reward. President, maybe? Of course, he's deluded because he'll get nothing, danke schoen, but there you are. Meanwhile, I, like many others and not all of them Conservative, have switched to UKIP. After my Conservative MP (an avowed "eurosceptic" - hah!) voted to deny me a voice, I'll be working to unseat him.
Dennis Churchill
November 21st, 2011 6:25pm Report this commentI suppose Merkel has the old Stasi files on British agents of influence. No doubt her people were hitting the phones.
eyesee
November 21st, 2011 6:33pm Report this commentI'm lost Fraser. You support the EU. As a club for politicians and designed from the outset to bring about a soviet Union style Europe of no democracy, what is there to agree with? It has already got a healthy dose of corruption in place, as such Marxist countries always do and Germany are working a financial crisis to achieve the unification that wouldn't be agreed to otherwise. If it were not for these economic panzers, Greece would have done what suited Greece and dropped out.
As I say, I'm lost on your stance. It isn't about trade, as Norway and Mexico (for heavens sake) have special trading status but don't have to be run by Brussels nor ship vast amounts of treasure to keep the project rolling (and in champagne). It's like saying 'I'm a right winger who believes in Stalin and five year plans on tractor production'.
Verity
November 21st, 2011 6:37pm Report this commentHolly, I didn't bother to read your pedestrian stream of verbiage after the first couple of erroneous assumptions.
Nigel doesn't dog whistle to a few. I believe in excess of 1/4 million people watched his last You Tube appearance. That is 250,000+ people who listened to a speech by a politician of their own free will.
Your diatribe is full of erroneous assumptions, without a single rational argument among them.
Verity
November 21st, 2011 6:39pm Report this commentTrevors Den -- "Loony tunes" obsessives. Nice to see you quoting President Reagan.
fergus pickering
November 21st, 2011 6:40pm Report this commentHolly, you said a heaping mouthful and all true. UKIP are barmy, basically barmy. Farage is good value but UKIP are barmy. Are all their supporters also barmy? Yup. sure are.
London Calling
November 21st, 2011 7:10pm Report this commentIf you want Governments run by Bankers, Lawyers and Puppets, then you are indeed a minority…Following the recent riots in Greece, boots and body armour arrived at a Greek port supplied by fellow Europeans as back up…its called a fist-full union…and a warning to those who think integration is only economic…Some Irish knew this and it was one of the reasons they did not want to sign the Lisbon Treaty …and agree to sign up their sons and daughters to a future European Army …as stated in the small print…
Paddy
November 21st, 2011 7:32pm Report this commentI'm with you Holly!
Just remember everyone......you could have Balls.
Remember who the enemy are!
Dimoto
November 21st, 2011 7:33pm Report this commentOh blimey ! Mr Nelson, you've done it now ! Ha-ha.
These guys are so easy to wind up !
Does anyone really think Cameron wrapped this "deal" up between coffees on Friday ?
This sounds like malicious rumour-mongering by the usual suspects to me.
You can be sure any deal will be a lot more complex than that.
Merkel is not even sure that a fiscal union will do the trick, most Brit opinion is pretty certain it WILL NOT.
Merkel is well aware that France may well block it.
EVERYBODY knows that it can't possibly be implemented in time to solve the current crisis.
Next year we will probably have the socialists in power in France, and maybe in Germany in 2013.
It's a soap opera !
wonkotsane
November 21st, 2011 7:44pm Report this commentI think you've misunderstood what a magnificent concession our glorious leader, Comrade Cameron, extracted from the devious hun. Oberstabsfeldwebel Merkel has graciously agreed to consider granting permission to continue opting out of some bits of the Working Time Directive, there is no agreement for one of Comrade Cameron's mythical repatriations of power.
Dennis Churchill
November 21st, 2011 7:48pm Report this commentPaddy
November 21st, 2011 7:32pm
If only it was that easy to recognise the enemy.
Burgess, Maclean “Sir” Anthony Blunt...
The British Stasi agents have never been named, except by accident, or the Polish, Czech, Hungarian...
Noa
November 21st, 2011 7:49pm Report this commentTrevorsden
- are you prepared for a labour govt then?
Thats the reality of the outcome of your fatuous fantasy.
So no difference to what we already have then.
Noa
November 21st, 2011 7:51pm Report this commentVerity
Nigel doesn't dog whistle to a few.''That is 250,000+ people who listened to a speech by a politician of their own free will.
No, its now 300,000+
daniel maris
November 21st, 2011 8:34pm Report this commentTypical - the Tories want to withdraw from the one bit of legislation that is positive and progressive.
It's a meaningless gesture in terms of the constitution of the EU.
Heartless P.
November 21st, 2011 8:43pm Report this commentSo it's come to this - Balls or the German, the H2B being but a knee-jerk reaction.
Holly ......
November 21st, 2011 8:49pm Report this commentVerity.
Everyone on the planet could watch Farage on youtube...Don't mean they're gonna vote for him though does it.
If you believe they will, well, what can one say?
Even I admit to watching it...Hence my quite low opinion of his single, constant, boring message...Same old, same old..
He will end up in the same pigeon hole as single, constant, boring message Balls.
If Verity decides not to read this could someone else reply to Verity for me.
Ta lots
Love
Holly
xxx
Benton Marder
November 21st, 2011 8:51pm Report this comment"Treason doth never prosper; what's the reason? For, if it prosper, none dare call it treason." Sir John Harrington
"O Lord our God arise! Scatter her enemies, And make them fall! Confound their politics! Frustrate their knavish tricks! On Thee our hopes we fix, Lord God of all!" middle verse of the National Anthem, now long forgotten.
Boudicca
November 21st, 2011 8:59pm Report this commentTrevorsDen
I don't care what Labour promise. I won't be voting for them. Not one of the LibLabCon is trustworthy and whichever one 'wins' the next GE, the effective government of the UK will be the EU, unless we get out.
I hope the CON-elite are getting as rattled as you obviously are.
"The CON-elite have got to understand that with 'Call Me Chamberlain' at the helm and the pro-EU policy he is persuing, they will lose the next GE. They will not bow to public opinion uUntil they understand that unless they change policy on the EU, they will never again get a majority, or even govern in coalition. "
As they are not in listening mode and haven't been since Maastrict, we must make them learn the hard way.
Santorum
November 21st, 2011 9:00pm Report this commentFarage's video is now ahead of 'Lionel Messii owns Pablo Zaballetta' on youtube's most viewed for the week. As Guido Fawkes points out, a political earthquake if ever there was one.
bojimbo
November 21st, 2011 9:00pm Report this comment#noconfidenceinthegovernment .
ButcombeMan
November 21st, 2011 9:01pm Report this commentFraser
It is over.
As someone says above, Britain is the only country able to tell the Germans not to be so foolish.
The whole project is done in present form and the idiots (including Heseltine) who belived in it have been exposed as intellectually wanting.
Fo me, the most desperate recent uttering, was Will Hutton on Question Time last week, hand wringing, with pain written through him, not able to say that we must never join the Euro and saying we might in "15 years". The chap means well but is in fairyland. He and his like are in great personal pain but so be it. Admitting they were wrong is proving very difficult.
These people have no basic comnmonsense.
If Cameron does not watch his step, Europe will finish him.
TGF UKIP
November 21st, 2011 9:04pm Report this commentOne very amusing juxtaposition is becoming ever more noticeable in the Coffee House. More and more frequently over recent months and weeks, the name UKIP has been mentioned by CHers, frequently prefaced by words such as "and I'll be voting for."
On the other hand, never, but never, do we see the name under the byline of either the Editor or the Political Editor which is probably a reflection of just how terrified they are of UKIP and its capacity to cause more and more damage to their beloved but increasingly Incredible Shrinking Party.
Pretty pathetic, Fraser.
Dennis Churchill
November 21st, 2011 9:16pm Report this commentPaddy
November 21st, 2011 7:32pm
If only it was that easy to recognise the enemy.
Burgess, Maclean “Sir” Anthony Blunt...
The British Stasi agents have never been named, except by accident, or the Polish, Czech, Hungarian...
Herbert Thornton
November 21st, 2011 9:17pm Report this commentThis is EXACTLY the sort of abject surrender that many posters, myself included, have been forecasting that Cameron would effect. It is as shameful as that effected in France by Marshal Petain early in WW2.
And then here in the Spectator, even daring to suggest that a Parliament consisting of a mix of UKIP, BMP, and EDL members plus the Tory backbenchers who recently rebelled against Cameron members, would be better than the rogues sitting there now - causes a storm of accusations of racism and extremism. Not to mention abuse such as acusations of being 'left wing nut cases' and 'right wing extremists'.
Well if Cameron's latest betrayal of his country doesn't persuade people of his treachery and unfitness and of the need to turn instead to the loyal groups I listed above - then what will?
Burty Bassett
November 21st, 2011 9:31pm Report this commentI do enjoy reading the pro-UKIP nutball related posts here. Rather like the 9-11 truthers I wonder what you would have left to bang on about if Blighty did leave the EU.
BTW 1 - I do agree the EU is a load rubbish!
BTW 2 - I guessing someone might have mentioned it but er... the tories did not win the last election... as such cant do what they want on repatriation of EU powers without cleggy jumping ship... election of potential labout govt... increased deficit... loss of AAA credit rating... bailout required!
Dennis Churchill
November 21st, 2011 10:15pm Report this commentI have just watched RT (Russian Television News) on the Euro and the Eurozone.
Much better than you would get on BBC or Sky.
strapworld
November 21st, 2011 10:43pm Report this commentHerbert Thornton. Do not get yourself in a lather. Those who have written the rubbish are in Cameron's Bunker. You have only to recall what that weak man calls Ukip supporters, the BNP and also the EDL. So these people who cannot have any brains to see what damage this man is doing to our Country just make me laugh. Led by the ridiculous trevors den, who obviously believes Cameron to be the second coming! these fools believe any tripe that Cameron comes out with.
What Cameron and his tribe cannot overlook is that on any blog whenever matter EUSSR is under discussion those wanting out greatly outnumber the fools. We should call them Heseltiners!
Verity
November 21st, 2011 11:39pm Report this commentNigel now up to over half a million hits on You Tube.
Dimoto
November 22nd, 2011 12:12am Report this commentHerbert Thornton:
"It is as shameful as that effected in France by Marshal Petain early in WW2".
Why always a French example ?
Why not Arthur Percival's surrender of 130K Commonwealth troops in Malaya and Singapore to the Japanese, "the largest capitulation in British history" (despite the valor of the Australians) ?
Or doesn't that fit with your jingoistic message ?
Ruby Duck
November 22nd, 2011 2:29am Report this commentSo Merkel is the EU. The handerouter of repatriatable scraps.
Game over.
Archie
November 22nd, 2011 4:54am Report this commentDear old strapworld! "Cameron is not being honest with the people". Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious, mate! Sorry old sport, but it's long overdue to be rid of this pile of pink excrement
Archie
November 22nd, 2011 7:46am Report this commentDimoto: Percival surrendered because the Japs had captured the water supply!
richardj
November 22nd, 2011 8:28am Report this commentSurely the issue here is having anyone from the Civil Service negotiating - its an oxymoron.
Conspad
November 22nd, 2011 8:40am Report this commentTrevorsden, Holly,
Can you please try to keep to the party line...
Widmerpool
November 22nd, 2011 9:09am Report this comment@Fraser
An excellent piece at long last someone at the Specie gets to the hard issues of the UK's relationship with the EU. This is in sharp contrast with some of your colleagues who retreat into trivial issues and display IMHO Euro avoidance behaviour!
We have some hard choices ahead I have yet to see a properly costed In and Out case. e.g. is it feasible for us to be like Norway and Switerland? What would be the efects of our not being under the yoke of the CAP on British food prices? etc etc
I do hope you can commission such a piece on the Coffee House site.
normanc
November 22nd, 2011 9:33am Report this commentIsn't it funny that the conservatives are accused of being dog-whistle, unthinking, loony tunes, mad, and all other sorts of ad-hominen attachs while we actually tackle the issues, critique policies and offer solutions rather than just wringing our hands and wailing 'a big boy across the channel did it and ran away' or, like Clegg's Great Repeal Bill 'it's too difficult to change anything so let's give up'.
The Cameroons never seem to defend any of his policies just, ironically, issue the dog whistle call 'if you don't vote for Cameron you'll end up with the boogey man.'.
I'll take critical thinking over nodding dog acquiescence any day of the week.
Halcyondaze
November 22nd, 2011 10:53am Report this commentFor everyone trotting out the "vote Conservative or you'll get Labour" line - it's TOO DAMN LATE! The Heir to Blair and his crew have had their chance and they've done nothing to turn this country round on the key issues - EU, immigration, law and order, economy, national identity etc. They've tinkered around and blustered while the issues called for decisive The gap for turning this country round is almost closed now and if we're ever going to
Halcyondaze
November 22nd, 2011 11:19am Report this commentTo all those trotting out the "vote Tory or you'll get Labour" line - sorry but it's TOO LATE! The Heir to Blair has had months to take some real action on the issues that matter - the EU, immigration, the economy, law and order, our national identity etc. We were crying out for some common sense, patriotic, conservative policies - and all we've got are the tinkerings and blusterings of a professional PR man trying to detoxify the brand and satisfying nobody in the process. We need to get rid of this idiot and his crew - they're just as bad as Labour - and send a clear message that we will not tolerate this rubbish any longer. The lid on Britain's coffin is now almost closed - we need people with real principle and determination to stand in the way. Like so many others I'll be voting UKIP from now on - and I'll never vote for the smug, useless Tories ever again.
Halcyondaze
November 22nd, 2011 11:34am Report this commentPS apologies for the double post!
John Clegg
November 22nd, 2011 12:12pm Report this commentCall him "Chamberoon".
Tiberius
November 22nd, 2011 1:16pm Report this comment"Nigel now up to over half a million hits on You Tube".
He's nearly caught up with Sexy Secretary, then.
TGF UKIP: come on - you do yourself a disservice. The increasing number of UKIPPERS on here is a few dozen. Why no Tory support? - because you only get the protesters, the Angry fron Coventry lot venting their spleen. If there were any material movement of Tory suppport in the country away from the party, Osborne would be on to it. It seems the feminine vote is causing most trouble at the moment.
Cameron may yet fail as a PM. But a rather mischievous post from Fraser does not confirm that. Cameron hasn't done enough of anything yet to fail (although the most advanced policy, Education, is a success).
J.R.Watson
November 22nd, 2011 1:54pm Report this commentIt's Hobson's Choice - sink alone or swim with Europe - we do most of our trade with them stupid so we need to be in the fort pissing out and not outside pissing down our trouser leg
In2minds
November 22nd, 2011 2:44pm Report this comment82 comments when I started this one, a larger number of hits than any other subject for a while. So 'people are not interested in the EU' is not true then?
Verity
November 22nd, 2011 2:52pm Report this commentHalyon Daze - "We need to get rid of this idiot and his crew - they're just as bad as Labour - and send a clear message that we will not tolerate this rubbish any longer."
How?
Verity
November 22nd, 2011 3:35pm Report this commentTiberius ... this is a genuine question. Are you a failure?
The Speccie has several people clad in the name of Roman achievers and they all post streams of delusional, uppity drivel.
Tiberius
November 22nd, 2011 4:36pm Report this commentDunno, Verity. I've never given the matter any thought.
And it's not delusional, uppity drivel. Don't take my word for it - check the hit counts yourself.
Ghengis
November 22nd, 2011 5:09pm Report this commentJ.R.Watson: I see you are of the Gordon Brown school of finance, First seek out a number of near bankrupt likely customers and secondly deny this being the reason for your endeavour failing.
Halcyondaze
November 22nd, 2011 6:19pm Report this commentVerity - "How?" - we send a clear message by not voting for them and voting for someone else! UKIP is my choice because they come closest to encapsualting the values and policies that I'd have liked to have seen from the Tories. I think you'll find a lot of people feel the same way. My point being that the Tories are now so indistinguishalbe from Labour that I don't actually care if my not voting for them helps Labour in the short term. They just shouldn't be allowed to get away with selling their supporters down the river like this. If as a result Labour get back in then so be it. Hopefully the Tories will then disintegrate and re-form around some inidividuals that actually do have some principles, patriotism and backbone and will take action on the key issues the current "all things to all people" Tories are failing to get a grip on - as detailed in my last post.
Boudicca
November 22nd, 2011 8:12pm Report this commentNigel has almost 350,000 hits now.
The MSM will still claim that no-one's really interested in the EU though.
Minnie Ovens
November 23rd, 2011 12:08am Report this commentThose of us who want to save Britain's EU membership can no longer pretend that ours is a majority position.
One day, possibly, you might wish to present a rationale for retaining our membership in the EU.
I'm afraid it has got to a point where your above remark is somewhat like the person commenting on the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbour thought it was a navigational error.
I find it hard to read articles by intelligent people who have little common sense.
Colin Cumner
November 23rd, 2011 7:26am Report this commentCameron has done more about faces and retreats than almost any of our recent Prime Ministers that I wonder he knows which face to shave when he looks in the mirror. The Tories have to get rid of him and get a leader with backbone. I agree with those who yearn for the Thatcher years - she certainly had her weaknesses but her strengths more than made up for them. I weep for what may become of Britain in the next five years.
Verity
November 23rd, 2011 2:44pm Report this commentColin Cumner - Well, clearly the Conservatives have no appetite to sack Dave and hire a Tory as Leader. By any yardstick, Dave's even failed the inch-high test of being "the heir to Blair".
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