What kind of Europe?

Mudplugger

More deck-chair shuffling on the SS EU Titanic after the iceberg of financial truth has exposed its fatal flaws.
It's holed below the water-line and all compartments are affected, it should never have floated in the first place.

If you want to go down with the ship, fiddling with your desperately flawed redesigns, that's your choice. I'd rather like to choice to abandon ship, clamber into my own lifeboat and paddle to safety under my own power with the vast majority of like-minded souls.
I recommend "For Those In Peril On The Sea" as the next EU anthem.

Hexhamgeezer

And not a voter in sight.

Dennis Churchill

Do the electorates get a say in these structures?

Gary Williams

EFSP would be a "less intrusive framework", with a "common foreign policy"?

Isn't that like jumbo shrimp?

Russell

Presumably Mr Korski, the countries outside the inner circle like the UK would not contribute one penny to the cost of this group, including the buildings, staff, salaries, expenses and the time 'ordinary' EU taxpayer funded members spend on solely 'inner group' meetingd, discussions etc. ?
The eurozone inner group must be completely self financing.

Olaf

Whatever it looks like I'm sure it'll cost me a lot.

tankus

Just give Pumpy and the others each a fiddle ...as the matches have already been used ....

fergus pickering

I haven't the faintest idea what all this means. But if it comes from eurocrats like that Rumpy-pumpy (is that him?) I don't like it.

whatawaste

Won't happen. Sarko and Merkel will prefer to dither and then blame everyone but themselves when the EZ splits up. When terms like "End game" are bandied about on Steph Flanders BBC Economics blog you know the game is up.

The kind of thinking you outline should have been done decades ago: it is called contingency planning in the real world. But reality is always excluded from the Europhile elite. The real irony is that the EZ did have good solid rules about entry requirements to the Euro but the political elite subverted these for their own glory: you reap what you sow....

Austin Barry

These guys never give up, do they?

The Germans have a word for the EU - Kaput.

Douglas Carter

It's an interesting read but ...'EFSP... common foreign and security policy'...

Why?

It's not self-evidentary as to why these objectives should be common by compulsion?

Biggestaspidistra

"And not a voter in sight." LOL

Dimoto

Yes, a bit confusing - photo' of v. Rompuy, article about v. Hulten.

Decent concept, but coming from a minor Dutch politician, most unlikely to be given a hearing !
I see he is a left-winger, (his son is a wheel in the PvdA - Dutch Labour), and is 81 years old.
The position on "Europe" of the left across Europe, is a bit mysterious.

If this new European structure happened and everyone was given a vote, I wonder how many countries would opt for the core ?
Maybe mostly the countries they don't want !

Dogzzz

Good point Dennis Churchill. Nowhere in that list of how the "two-speed" EU will work is there any room for democratic accountability.

Before we are thrust into an integrated EU, or dumped on a sideline, WE should be asked if we want to be all the way in to a fully integrated EU, or All the way out as an independent, sovereign democracy.

IF we vote in, then we can enthusiastically abandon democracy and accountability in return for putting more of our politicians head first deep into the EU trough.

Widmerpool

@Daniel

More Europhile avoidance behaviour I fear!

Fraser's recent posting shows how deeply unpopular the EU is now in the UK

Will the Tobin Tax be our Boston Tea Party moment?

Our cousins have done very well over the years from standing up to an out of touch Monarch and his Government imposing an unfair tax that hit America very hard!

Paul Danon

We're talking about Germany, Austria and Scandinavia joining Benelux; a Germanic union without England. The Slavs and Romania could go their separate way togther, as could club-Med. We and Ireland could turn our attention to the Anglosphere.

alexsandr

This is a major change to the EU. All nations should have a referendum to ratify it.

am I holding my breath. Am I heckers like.

Clear Memories

Just you posting a wish list again in the vain hope that your beloved EU will survive, Korski.

What you have outlined is, fundamentally, a small version of the World Trade Organisation with France and Germany at the heart. You seem to forget this was tried once before. Nobody liked it much, including the French, who ended up as a minor partner. Britain, the Commonwealth and the USA ended up sorting the mess out. Lets not go down that road again.

Europe comprises a range of nations with differing languages and cultures. They cannot and will not be forced into an artificial union without the agreement and will of the populations, no matter what the technocrats think. The ruling elite are petrified of democracy - see what they did to Greece - but the further they push towards union, the closer they get to the point when serious civil unrest starts. And then we are but a blink away from another European War.

Only this time, the Commonwealth will not help, America will not intervene, the Muslims are likely to attack from within and China and Russia will be left to pick over the carcases.

Duyfken

Mr Korski, you start this article with "A couple of weeks ago I tried to lay out what the future of Europe could look like" and you will know that that earlier blog attracted 41 comments, yet you fail yet again to respond to any of the points raised within those comments. Most probably, you will ignore every comment made in respect of this present piece. You should take a leaf out of Lord Tebbitt's book and show some courtesy by responding to those who have bothered to engage with you.

MI

This is a DK/Dempster classic on so many fronts:

Self-aggrandising reference to pioneering a stupid concept
Claiming that a Dutch Euro has-been is following in your wake
Dismissing with a flick of the pen, like Viv Richards hitting Derek Pringle out of the ground, the policies of the Euro big-boys (you might be on to something for a change there)

Ian Walker

Duyfken, I think you'll find that proponents of the EU like Mr Korski aren't really interested in what the public think.

Otherwise they'd put their faith in democracy rather than kleptocracy.

RocketDog

In or out. That should be the choice. The language used here is appalling. 'Many European countries aren't ready to give up their veto..' This phrase suggests that one day they might be - and the proposed EFSP a kind a half-way house for the socially inadequate on their path to full comity in the affairs of the adult world

How patronising and how very EUSSR

Verity

"A couple of weeks ago I tried to lay out what the future of Europe could look like ...".

Damn decent of you, Korski! Those of us who are too stupid to figure it out for ourselves are indebted to you!

M42

Korski just doesn't give up.
It's like watching a dog chase it's tail same old stuff getting nowhere. Is it something in the water?

Verity

Austin Barry - "The Germans have a word for the EU - Kaput." Ha ha ha ha ha!

Widmerpool - Boston Tea Party! I like it!!

Ian Walker - Well said!

Duyfken - Lord Tebbitt is a gentleman by nature. This is not a common quality, especially among Europhiles for some reason.

We need a PM with the singleness of mind and purpose of Nigel Farage.

Tarka the Rotter

"What kind of Europe?" - why bother asking us, we don't get a chance to vote on it.

Barbara

EFSP - 'Extensively-Funded, Self-Perpetuating'?

Neil McEvoy

"Integrative"? Jesus wept. That could be straight out of a 5,000 page EU directive on the curvature of bananas. Are you in fact an undercover Brussels apparatchik?

It reminds me of the old war movie where the Gestapo agent in the train asks the escaping Tommy "do you have a light"?

dorothy wilson

And what would happen to the indebted countries such as Greece and Portugal? Are they simply to be cast adrift?

And who would pay for the largesse that countries like Croatia, now read to join, are expecting?

Halcyondaze

Thanks for that Korski - now how about giving US a say?! No - thought not! The longer this nonsense continues the angrier people are going to get. I urge anyone reading this to watch Nigel Farage's excellent speeches on youtube hacking those smug Eurocrats down to size. I also urge you to vote on the e-petitions site for an EU referendum. They can't go on ignoring us forever.

TomTom

"Will the Tobin Tax be our Boston Tea Party moment?"

Obviously, Stamp Duty has only been in force since 1694 and I see regular uprisings every time people pay CASH up front to buy a house.

London Calling

The truth is…you cannot have an inner core of 0.5% in control of 99.5%...for obvious reasons…

AS PROTESTS against financial power sweep the world this week, science may have confirmed the protesters' worst fears. An analysis of the relationships between 43,000 transnational corporations has identified a relatively small group of companies, mainly banks, with disproportionate power over the global economy.

Concentration of power is not good or bad in itself, says the Zurich team, but the core's tight interconnections could be. As the world learned in 2008, such networks are unstable. "If one [company] suffers distress," says Glattfelder, "this propagates."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

Europe has willed itself such a position, however the European people did not will it…vote for it or elect those who are at the seat of power who run it…surely this makes any previous treaties non-void?...in which case…we have a case legally to withdraw, as do other countries within Europe...

Dimoto

I think not Verity.

Farage is a fun wind-up merchant, and a bit of a crank (model railway in his shed ?)

Sustained hard work, attention span, administrative ability, intellect .... ?
Not our Nige, I'm afraid !

A poor man's Alex Salmond.

Andy Carpark

Neil McEvoy
November 24th, 2011 4:58pm

"Integrative"? Jesus wept.

You evidently missed his 'legendermain'.

Cynic

What kind of Europe? The usual sort - the one that starts about 22 miles from Dover across the English Channel (variously known as la Manche or das Kanal). Oh, you mean what sort of EU? Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn as long as we aren't subject to it, don't have to pay for it and have broken free of it. Not that we are going to have any sort of say, of course. How dare we even contemplate democracy?

chinasyndrome

Its the demos stupid!

Tom Gallagher

Dimoto,
Farage would debate about the EU with any politician in any democratic arena. The supposedly superior Alex Salmond doesn't do debate but instead carefully-contrived sound-bites and phoney 'spontaneous' appearances. He shrinks from taking on opponents like Labour's Tom Harris well able to expose the flaws in the SNP's love affair with Europe. I await the Pavlovian reaction from a cybernat or two about being a running dog of the unspeakable Labour rabble.

David Cockerham

"European Area of Freedom, Security and Prosperity". You could shorten that to "Co-Prosperity Sphere". Now where have I heard that before?

ButcombeMan

"EFSP would be a free trade area with a common foreign and security policy".

No chance of the UK being in that then! We will never subordinate our foreign policy to a talking shop, we will have strategic alliances, as we always have.

Straw poll of the assembly last night in my local, (with a lively discussion as well) people from right and left of centre were up for supporting UKIP.

I do believe the British worm has finally turned and has had enough. Cameron needs to be very careful and Clegg is just laughed at.

Verity

Dimoto - Your post tells me you have never met Nigel.

Yow Min Lye

Why don't the 'inner core', 'fast track', 'Schengen' enthusiasts just drop the pretence and all speak German.

Mr L

Each European country is different. Most have little in common save geographical proximity; in some cases, not even that. I have never understood why national politicians think "Europe" is such a good idea. Can CH-ers help?

fergus pickering

The last thing we need in a Prime Minister is singleness of mind. That can also be expressed as tunnel vision. Good if there's a war on, I grant, but until Germany does the invasion of the untermensch on all fronts thing again, we don't need that.

TomTom

Yow Min Lye, super idea. After all the world's biggest debtor nations all speak English !

Tarka the Rotter

Looks like it will be a nuked Europe with Russia now standing up to the US over Syria, warships deployed and threats to take out missile defence systems based in Europe.

Heartless P.

Behold, a piccy of an arrogant prat.

Reminds me of someone ... now who is it?

Remittance Man

Van Hulten's EFSP is nothing more than the current situation made worse. He wants common security and foreign policies as well as a free trade area. Precisely the opposite of what British eurosceptics are demanding.

As for his idea of it including Russia, is he unaware that Russia is currrently trying to re-establish the Soviet Union with its Eurasian Union". Hell, it's founders even want to annex the old Warsaw Pact nations if they can, apparently on the grounds the Czechs and Hungarians speak Russian.

But while you are trying to figure that one out, consider that the last thing the Russians appear to want to do is sign up to the Brussels agenda.

The Remittance Man

There can be no "split" eu with an outer zone of supposedly free ntions and an inner core consisting of an increasingly centralised super state - it just won't work.

Logically and practically there can only be two stances vis a vis membership of the eu - "in and wholly committed to the project" or "out and free".

BTW, TomTom. Stamp duty was imposed by the British government on the British people pretty much equally. The Tobin Tax will be a tax imposed by the euro-elite on the British people (or at least their economy) almost exclusively. There's a difference and if you can't spot it, you need help.