The referendum question Pt. 2

Andrew Fletcher

It's up to us on this forum to "name and shame" the backbenchers who allow themselves to be bought off / threatened into silence by No. 10

Nicholas

How predictable is this. I am growing to hate this weak, appeasing, useless, pudding faced idiot. Mercer had him nailed. Fiscal union where unaccountable EU bureaucrats with bland Himmler faces will get to meddle in and approve Britain's budgets won't transfer sovereignty? What absolute bollox.

Austin Barry

(I just posted this on the Wall, but it seems more appropriate here.)

You just know, don’t you, as you look at his weak, disdainful face, that Cameron is capable of any duplicity to ensure that the UK cleaves, without substantive demur, to the roiling, anti-democratic mess that is the EU.

If you check Cameron’s observable characteristics against the O’Hare indicator of sociopathic traits he achieves a relatively high score, as do, to be fair, most prime ministers.

It is unlikely, then, that he will concede his view, fired into his very DNA, that the EU is a magnificent edifice to the comity of nations - and that IDS, those frightful, awkward-squad backbench oiks and the ghastly plebs had better agree with him.

He will though learn one of the life’s immutable rules - that hubris leads to Nemesis.

alexsandr

i suspect the member for stratford upon avon will be against any weakening of the EC. I have a word for politicians like him i can't post here.

Rhoda Klapp

Rules applying only to non-UK countries do not trigger a referendum, according to the act. They can do what they like within the eurozone, and although it could hardly be counted as none of our business, the referendum cannot be our response. The referendum thing is a blind alley for eurosceptics at the moment.

The steady erosion of trust that the present government would EVER admit that the referendum threshold was triggered, or would ever do anything to upset this that or the other euro nation, or that it was ever the right time to be reclaiming powers, that erosion of trust will return to bite the tory party. It will be their own actions, their own pathetic squirming weasel actions, which will hurt them in the end. Not UKIP, not me, not tgf or any of the eurosceptic crew here. It is time for them to buld some bridges to the sceptic community, or indeed the right, or their own temerity and gutlessness will do for them. I expect the Trevors of this blog will blame people like me.

oldtimer

The country was promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It was denied by Brown. Cameron`s get out clause was the fact that the Lisbon treaty was ratified by the time he became PM. Meantime the Coalition has legislated to offer a referendum if more powers are to be transferred to the EU. The effect if this, narrowly defined, is to ratchet Lisbon into law even though the treaty changes now expected will effectively amend Lisbon. The creation of a 17 member bloc, with overiding amending powers, would effectively transfer powers to the EU. Attempts to argue against a referendum in such circumstances is to resort to the use of weasel words of which Blair himself would be proud.

TrevorsDen

Pompous ass. See I name and shame you Mr Fletcher.

I would be happy to be out of the EU, but see no great benefits in being so.
The argument is one generated by hysterics.
What the Eurozone do is their business and not likely to involve us; it is also a shambles and that indeed imperils and impoverishes us all. Its fate is likely to have more say on the RU than anything.

Nickle

Cameron is lying though his back teeth.

He promised a referenda and his refusal shows what a scumbag he is.

It's interest now to look at Greece. The black market is hitting 50% of the economy. Soon it will be the majority.

It shows that you don't need a government to function economically. Cut them out, and those wanting payment for their loans can whistle.

Time I think to do the same here. Cameron is acting in exactly the same way a a General in a Junta. Dictating

Cuffleyburgers

Calm down, everybody, whilst I agree that Cameron is a pudding faced traitor, I agree with him that we do not want a referendum now, we have seen how
a) who writes the question calls the tune and we can be sure that it won't be worded in such a way as to make rejection easy
b) we have also seen how the EU will lie and cheat and use our own money to bribe is to a yes if not the first time then the second or the third.

If we did lose a referendum it would be a disaster as we would be subsumed without trace into this monster.

Far better to keep our powder dry and watch it fall apart to a point where even the government is forced into realising that we no longer want to be a part of it, a point which would seem to be approaching at accelerating speed.

Finally anybody who talks about repatriating powers is lying or an idiot - such a thing cannot happen.

In the case of Camerlot it is hard to know which - probably both.

Mike, Brighton

I do hope Cameron realises the explosion that will take place if he weasels out of a referendum.
All real conservatives will at last realise he isn't really a conservative at all and nor does his party represent their view rather a pro-EU mushy left-liberal political class consensus. Plus Cameron would be shown as a proven liar like Brown and Blair before him.

Verity

Nickle - Yes, Cameron is a scumbag, but we knew that.

I am still baffled by how such an unreformed bad 'un, with a history of gleeful, drunken, willful destruction of other people's property, and being a close friend of the EUSSR Projekt, got the nomination. I wonder how many hundreds of thousands, or millions, it cost.

What is also intriguing is, he did not get the nomination through charm or a brilliant mind. So, Mrs. Cameron, how did multi-millionaire David Cameron manage to get the nomination for PM of Britain?

RKing

Now who's a lying little ba***rd then?....

Who promised a referendum if there is a significant change etc...?

Goodbye Cameron you are a useless lying sod if you rat out on us now!!

UKIP here I come!!

lescam

Nicholas
December 5th, 2011 2:13pm
"I am growing to hate this weak, appeasing, useless, pudding faced idiot. Mercer had him nailed."

How true. I have hated Cameron for a long time now, and he only gets worse. Mercer was spot on in what he said.

First we were cursed with Brown, now we are cursed with Cameron. When will it end? We haven't had a true Conservative PM since November 1990. We have suffered 21 years of weak, vacillating, dishonest, even in the case of Brown, deranged "leadership". Haven't we suffered enough?

TrevorsDen

You sad bunch of jerks. Howling at the moon.

Russell

And who would pay for all the administration for this new mini eurozone EU, the country's outside the euro like the UK, the 5th largest net contrivutor to the EU budget.
Who pays for the EU Justice departments time, the meetings, the offices, the additional jobsworthys?

We must be given an in/out referendum.

Publius

From Merkozy a few minutes ago:
"These reforms include a modified EU treaty, which would ideally apply to *all 27 members*..."

So there you have it.

Dennis Churchill

All very Short Term, so typical of our political class. Maybe they believe something will turn up to make us all want to be a province of the Franco-German European Union: it won’t.
They need to admit to the fact we will have a referendum and we will no longer be full members of the EU shortly after it.
This is not how they assumed the world would be or how the people they mix with assumed the world would be; but it is.
Get on with it while you still have the perks and have not had your post -EU career ruined by the term :“collaborator”. It will be a much more nationalist country, much more like the USA and the rest of the Anglosphere.Being considered anti-Australian is not a good career move in Aus, it won’t be in the UK within a decade.

Peter From Maidstone

You do really earn your stipend don't you TrevorsDen.

PayDirt

I'm waiting for the new Hitler to arrive, at this rate it will be English and contribute to the CoffeeHouse blog.

Mudplugger

In the Paris Press Conference today, Frau Merkin admitted that it was the Greek referendum plan which triggered the EU into taking all the ensuing action, because they knew it would be lost and would de-stabilise their 'final solution'.

I'm sure the BBC will not translate that bit in any news coverage, neither will flaccid Cameron acknowledge the power of democratic threat to dictatorial powers.

IN/OUT - that's the only referendum we want, and the one we will soon start violent protest to gain, if it is not forthcoming. They have been warned.

Peter From Maidstone

PayDirt, it's true. There are a lot of socialists who post here. Anyone of them could be a new Hitler. Most have the chip on the shoulder, the psychotic tendencies, and the desire to control other people's lives.

James

"Rules applying only to non-UK countries do not trigger a referendum, according to the act."

The problem that I see arising right now is the caveat-ridden legalese being used by politicians. Phrases like 'major changes' and 'loss of sovereignty'.

From what I can see off the Act itself, a referendum can be triggered by an additional or expanded competence of the EU - subtly different from the red herrings the pols are setting up.

The additional issue is - does anybody actually know what is being proposed? There probably are people who do know, but as an outsider looking in, all I'm seeing is lots of 'round table discussion' with buzzwords like 'fiscal union', 'financial transaction tax' and 'two-tier Europe' being flung around. I haven't heard of a solid proposal of what change in the EU will entail.

perdix

Keep up the good work TrevorsDen. What we need is action based on reason and not hysterical character assassination.

TGF UKIP

Careful chaps and chapesses, tomorrow, as it happens, is the sixth anniversary of Heath2's ascent to the leadership so let's not forget how he conned and weaselled his way there.

The strong suspicion that has been steadily growing in my mind at least, is that a referendum is exactly what Dave 'n Nick have in mind but very much a referendum at a time of their choosing, on an EU issue of their choosing and with a question of their choosing. By definition, therefore, it will certainly be anything but an in/out referendum but rather it will be designed to appear to Joe Public to be a referendum for swivel-eyed political anoraks only, with a potentially high price for ordinary Brits if the "wrong" answer is given.

Anything less comprehensible than a straightforward in/out referendum is extremely dangerous for Eurosceptics. Heath2 would like nothing more than to be able to bury all prospects of the fundamental question being asked for another 36 years so be very careful lest he be given the chance. Cuffleyburgers is dead right.

daniel maris

Read the manifesto. It talks about a transfer of competence triggering a referendum and does NOT specify from the UK to the EU. Clearly a competence (deciding on internal fiscal policy) is going to be transferred but with a continued opt out. However, the point is that a future UK government will be able to sidestep a future referendum, but entering a fiscal union on the basis that the competence is already there in the amended treaty.

Cameron will indeed be acting illegally and treacherously if he forces the Crown to approve a treaty amendment which allows the EU to rules our fiscal affairs.

A suggestion: an e mail campaign to ask the Queen not to appove such a treaty amendment without a referendum. Not that she would ever refuse the PM's advice of course, but as a way of highlighting the constitutional issues.

dorothy wilson

I've just had a quick look at Der Spiegel on-line. There's an article headed: "Blocking Tactics: UK Infuriating Partners by Obstructing EU Foreign Policy".

I guess it is not impossible that Brussels/Germany/France will employ tactics that will bring the question of our membership of the EU to a head. The other possibility is that they will try to engineer a situation that puts the blame for the failure to rescue the euro on to us.

On the other hand, perhaps I am being paranoid.

michael

"I would be happy to be out of the EU, but see no great benefits in being so."
same pseudo liberal apathy as Lord Ken's: 'Don't bother to try and read/understand the treaty ...just sign it anyway'.
This auto-suggestive, go with the flow, lazy mindset, is perhaps the single most insidiously twisted mind game that staunch EUphiles use to 'stealth' their agendas.

Cogito Ergosum

@PayDirt 3.49pm
I have visited Hitler's birth town, Braunau-am-Inn, in Austria on the German border. It reminded me of Guildford, where I live. It is a generally prosperous area. The High Street runs down a hill to the bridge over the river.

I wondered then if some frustrated artist in Guildford was documenting his struggle to achieve revenge on humanity. Nowadays I think it comes out in Coffee House.

It could happen here, you know. By easy steps until there is no turning back.

justathought

Obviously negotiations are on going however the recent failure last month to secure the referendum motion is a matter of record and was a democratic decision taken by our parliamentarians. Merkosy negotiators know we are divided on this and so we have a weak hand to play.

Our previous government and others around the EU show that they cannot be trusted to set budgets that are balanced and instead cook the books in order to try to buy votes before elections. It is no wonder non elected technocrats are being parachuted in to clean up the mess. If taxpayers are to be punished for feckless government spending then Merkosy is right to call for strict fiscal oversight which must be written into the treaty.

Our position is further undermined because we have a coalition that is deeply divided on greater EU intergration. The very best that we can hope for is to win the argument with rational debate.

If the euro fails then the EU is finished and there will be a banking collapse. We have the second biggest financial sector in the world. It will be the UK taxpayers who have to bailout the banks (again) if that happened.

This is a time for cool heads and thinking through the consequences of our actions.

Mr. Bubbles

"On the other hand, some eurosceptic backbenchers caution that now is not the time to hold a referendum"

i.e. they're not eurosceptic. Any time is a good time, we've been waiting long enough...

PayDirt

Perhaps I was a bit over the top with Hitler, however there is always Richard III (in 1996 film as directed by Richard Loncraine) in which Richmond comes to the rescue as R_III is engulfed in the flames of a crumbling Battersea Power Station. Great stuff for a film, really nasty. Hope our history lessons will prevent a rerun or similar turn of events.

lescam

"Our position is further undermined because we have a coalition that is deeply divided on greater EU intergration." (sic)

Why can nobody ever spell "INTEGRATION" correctly?

Nicholas

"The very best that we can hope for is to win the argument with rational debate."

Well since over 50 years of attempted rational debate by Conservative politicians has never dented the propaganda and deprecations of Labour governments, even after the whole population has experienced them, I don't have much faith in it.

Cynic

"[T]his cautious backbench dynamic suits the prime minister, whose present aim, a spokesman said this morning, is to support the Eurozone rather than repatriate competences from the EU." As is becoming increasingly clear, however, this support for the eurozone in preference to the interests of the UK is rapidly antagonising the people of this country who want their say in how they are governed. Forming a bloc of 17 against 10 with QMV is obviously going to affect the UK. To deny us the referendum held out by the so-called "referendum lock" will be the last straw.

Dennis Churchill

TGF UKIP
December 5th, 2011 4:08pm
Possibly you are right and they are looking for the right question and time.
Of course you must factor in they are both just rich kids who have never been tested outside politics and not really even within politics.
We have no reason to believe any of our leading politicians are very gifted strategically.
The other aspect is the EU is toxic as far as image is concerned and it would be difficult to get a majority of the British people to vote for anything that was pro-EU.
This is why I think the younger members of our political class should be looking at their careers after we leave the European Union. There will be a period where all the parties will wrap themselves in the flag (Union or St.George)
The European Union is, as far as the UK is concerned, yesterday’s project.

Vulture

I recently took part in a debate on the EU with an elderly gent named Lord Renton, a Europhile 'Tory', putting the pro-EU case.

(Scarily the old fella was Thatcher's Chief Whip. He was clearly one of the Heseltine/Clarke crowd who put the dagger between her shoulder blades).

Since there is no longer any rational reason for belonging to this corrupt and sinister organisation I was more than a little surprised to hear milord opining that the only thing wrong with the EU was that its unelected officials did not have ENOUGH powers to override elected national Governments with their annoying democracy, pesky elections and irritating referenda!

And this man calls himself a Tory! Cameron is clearly a pea from the same fascist pod.

Woody

Whatever you may think of David Cameron, the highly personal,disgusting, infantile, abusive remarks are just appallying.

It just shows the decline in personal behaviour and lack of civility.

What happeneded to the moderator on this site?

GROW UP THE LOT OF YOU.

Vulture

@Woody: Infantile abuse? What, you mean like calling people 'racist fruitcakes'?

Just remind me who it was who said that of ordinary UKIP members - most of them former Conservatives.

RKing

Taken frim Wikipedia.....

The phrase "peace for our time" was spoken on 30 September 1938 by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in his speech concerning the Munich Agreement and the Anglo-German Declaration. The phrase echoed Benjamin Disraeli, who upon returning from the Congress of Berlin in 1878 stated "I have returned from Germany with peace in our time." It is primarily remembered for its ironic value, as the German occupation of the Sudetenland began on the following day. Less than a year after the agreement, following continued aggression from Germany and its invasion of Poland, Europe was plunged into World War II.

Can anyone predict the speech that Camergoon will make when he returns from the negotiations............... maybe "I have negotiated the best possible deal which will guarantee we retain our sovereignty and guarantee peace for our time. There will be no need for a referendum"

It will be noted as Germany takes control of our financies and we lose our sovereignty the following day!!!!

The Oncoming Storm

Its rather funny that those who criticised the AV referendum as a waste of money won't be happy until they have a referendum on an issue of equally little resonance among the vast majority of the electorate!

I of course don't expect an intelligent or reasoned response to this just the usual hysteria, hyperbole and bile from the Euro nuts! :)

Paul Danon

If he can duck a referendum, will Mr Cameron say if he'll veto a treaty? If he does so, there'll be no need for a plebiscite.

fergus pickering

I know Let's get rid of Cameron and replace him with Jeremy Clarkson. Job done folks

Rhoda Klapp

Woody, if you are so offended on Cameron's behalf by the stuff which has been posted here, you are a very sensitive flower indeed. This is probably the best-mannered political blog you will find in the UK. Why not take up the arguments on his behalf, rather than rail at commonplace insults?

Heartless P.

Ugh!!

The H2B, aka HeathChamberoon, - bending his podgy knee to Merkozy - is quite beyond civilised words.

Axstane

Vulture says "I recently took part in a debate on the EU with an elderly gent named Lord Renton, a Europhile 'Tory', putting the pro-EU case".

In a seance. I presume - he has been dead for over 4 years. In the strange world of Vulture imagination and reality are as one.

Using less extreme language than the eternal Cameron-haters I would be rather more than disappointed if this European realignment passes gently into our lives without a referendum.

David Lindsay

Verdun Undone.

Twice.

But if there is to a Treaty of Reunion between France and Germany, perhaps to be signed at Aachen Cathedral on 28th January, Beatus Carolus Magnus in both countries, then why need that concern those of us outside the reborn Carolingia? What has it to do with the EU, as such? Let them get on with it. If it ever poses a threat to us, then that would be a different matter. But it does not at the moment.

As for David Cameron and his schemes to secure EU treaty changes "in Britain's interests" as the price of his unnecessary blessing for this project, how does he define those interests? The removal of employment protections which, I agree, ought really to be enacted by and through the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and would be if there were a proper Labour Party, in which case they would be a lot more extensive than the EU would ever countenance. And the continued existence and privileges of the separate state that he really serves, a mile-square Medieval oligarchy where the United Kingdom ought to be, which the Queen may not enter without special permission, where Wall Street has its tax haven, and where the writ of Parliament does not run, thereby denying the British inhabitants parliamentary as well as municipal democracy.

strapworld

Having been out for the day with my child bride, I have just heard on the news that Ian Duncan Smith has 'ammended' what he said on Sky News yesterday, when he called for a referendum.

I am sorry I did think that IDS had a backbone. Obviously not.

As for Cameron that weak man will stand up for the EU and kick the UK. How did the conservative party get involved with such a charlatan?

William Blakes Ghost

Cameron's policy of making the UK economic serfs (or should that be Smurfs?) to the 4th Reich in Brussels and Berlin spells disaster for Cameron, the Conservative Party and the country.

The EU is now the greatest threat to our future economic prosperity whichever way you look at it. As such it needs to be viewed, from an economic viewpoint, in the same light as we once viewed the USSR from a military viewpoint.

Peter From Maidstone

I don't believe Lord Renton is dead. He appears to regularly read the Lessons in his local parish church.

Sacre Bleu

The concept of the EU in total, or a 'superior nation state' within the EU should pick up the same challenges that Greece, Italy et al are facing. Namely cutting their own budget spending which from my point of view means taking not just an axe to the Brussels Civil Service but a bulldozer. The books would be easier to balance if the colossal overheads of EU admin were cut by 50% for starters. Cut expenses, pensions, salaries and staff numbers with no redundancy packages for the thousands of surplus heads. No pensions unless you are genuinely permanently retired and make it aged related to boot. Clegg should not be drawing a pension from the EU while being employed by the parliament of a nation state whether in government or opposition. If we must live within our means then so must the EU so reductions in our contributions should be a right as part of any plan to reduce our expenditure. Fat chance that the EU will look at itself first.

Vulture

@Axtane:
Please don't display your ignorance for all to see. It's just plain embarassing.

You are clearly referring to the Lord Renton who died in May 1997 aged 98.

I am referring to the Lord Renton ( aka Tim Renton) who is still with us - or at least he was last week when the debate was held.

Clear Memories

Before the next election, UKIP need to sit down with the nationalists and bang out a policy on Europe. If the Lib-Dems can work with the Tories, I'm bloody certain Farage and Griffin can reach an accord.

Removing all the Europeans from working in the UK, freeing up jobs for our youth, and tightening the borders would most probably be enough to appease the knuckle-draggers.

Then approach the election purely on an anti-EU, in-or-out referendum ticket with a promise of a further election as soon as the referendum takes place and binding steps to get out of the EU are put in place.

UKIP and the nationalists are single-issue parties but to achieve their aims, they need to recognise that and 'market' a campaign people can get behind.

We all know 80% consistently tell pollsters they want out of the EU but that never transfers into votes because they know the anti-EU parties don't have the ability to run the Country. So, offer them a way around their prime objections. You may hate the BNP message, but I bet most hate the EU even more!

Dimoto

1) There is not the slightest chance that any British government would consider allowing the EU to second-guess UK budgets.

2) Economic commentators are agreed that Merkozy are well out of their depths, and that what they propose will not solve the fundamental problem: the ~30% and growing, uncompetitivity of southern Europe.

Just calm down and carry on, the Eurozone is unsustainable.

daniel maris

We need the equivalent of a West Lothian question:

What is to stop a future UK government arguing that the UK signed up for this treaty amendment and that therefore there is nothing to stop us joinining a Euro-based fiscal union.

We need to look at the Act I guess, although that is a flimsy defence, given a parliamentary majority can overturn it in the blink of an eye.

daniel maris

This FCO briefing suggests the "referendum lock" Act only comes into play where there is a new treaty change - but if this new treay change is approved, there won't in future be a new treaty change will there? THere will only be relinquishing of an opt out?

Any thoughts?

Archie

Peter from Maidstone: that's a perfect description of Gordon Brown!

Jon Stack

The idea that Kozysmerk and the Brussels apparatchiks will tell Eurozone and potentially other EU governments how much they can or can't spend, borrow or tax is utterly unsustainable and will be dismissed by the markets before it even reaches a Treaty re-write. Any belief in the disciplines of EU membership was lost when the idea of economic convergence was conveniently forgotten by the EU turnstile operators. The UK should stay well clear of this dangerous development and concentrate on developing its markets elsewhere. A referendum is likely in my view, if only to keep the coalition together, rather than out of principle. In any case the British people will have their say, even if that means taking to the streets to rid ourselves of the dismal state apparatus which seeks to control our lives.

Raymond Burke

David Cameron's explanation that fiscal union in the eurozone would not trigger a UK referendum because no sovereignty issue is at stake seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Bagehot asks in a recent Economist blog: 'Suppose we do end up facing a treaty setting out new rules for the euro zone, and suppose that Britain did hold a referendum. What, exactly, do [Eurosceptics] think the others would do if Britain voted no?'

As The One With The Glasses was wont to observe: 'There's no answer to that.'

I see there are the usual clarion calls for Britons to take to the streets to reclaim our Green and Pleasant Land from Our Masters in Brussels. Not much chance of that, given the miserable turn-out to lobby MPs during the recent debate over the hokey-cokey referendum (In? Out? Or shake it all about?)

Far better for Eurosceptics to bide their time and vote for UKIP candidates at the next general election. Although given the rebuff received by Nigel Farage in Buckingham last time round - and in the absence of candidates from the three main parties - I am afraid they will once again be doomed to disappointment.

Rue de la Loi

Sacré Bleu - Clegg should not be drawing a pension from the EU while being employed by the parliament of a nation state. What makes you think he is drawing a pension? From his few years in Brussels, he will have accrued a modest pension payable when he is about 63 (an age likely to rise to 65-67 very shortly). Clegg's pension arrangements are the least of our worries.

As to a Eurozone of 17 forming a bloc to the detriment of those outside the Eurozone, surely the present chaos shows that the defining characteristic of the Eurozone is that its members are riven by mutual distrust and have widely diverging interests. Fiscal consolidation or whatever you want to call it, is the sort of gesture that will keep the markets happy for about 5 minutes, but it will do nothing to alter the irreconcilable structural economic differences between say, the Finnish and Greek economies. All Britain can do is stand clear.