Europe is the story again

daniel maris

Never underestimate the power of logic and law.

You can dissemble, dodge and distract, but you still have to deal with the fundamentals.

There are vital constitutional and economic arguments involved here. Mrs. Dorries was probably not up to articulating them, but still they remain.

I think it is untenable to say the British people can have a referendum over a proposed transfer of powers in 2012 but not 2013. Because that is Cameron's logic. He says because the treaty change will not involve transfer of powers from the UK to the EU, we don't need a referendum. But by 2013 the treaty change will have been made and therefore any subsequent transfer of powers will not be caught by the referendum act because there be no need for a treaty change, just a withdrawal of the opt-out.

That isn't a tenable argument.

David Tomlinson

Rifkind is obviously a poor lawyer. Pity Dorries hadn't mugged up on the law either.
European Union Act Art 4 'Cases where treaty or Art48(6) decision attracts a referendum' specifies 8 occurrences requiring a referendum without requiring any of them to affect the UK, before listing those which do.
For instance Art 4 (1)(a) the extension of the objectives of the EU.....
and (b)the conferring on the EU of a new exclusive competence.
It is to avoid a UK referendum that France-Germany are constructing a separate Growth and Stability Union outside the EU.
Unlike Rifkind, they've read the UK Act.

Number7

Hat tip Brianr on DT comments:-

"I'm sure that the EU leaders have the measure of "Cast Iron Dave" and will simply snap him back into line. After all, it won't be the first time he has threatened to take a hard line and then failed, will it?

Cameron is the least trust worthy politician to emerge from UK politics in living memory, he makes Peter Mandelson look honest.

He doesn't care about the UK, he cares even less about the hard working and prudent middle class whom he has betrayed at every opportunity. The Tories need to dump him ASAP but they don't have a replacement so they are doomed."

Personally, I don't think Trading Standards would have a problem with that.

Dan Grover

I don't really see why Britain having a tougher stance is mutually exclusive to Sarkozy and Merkel doing whatever it takes to save the Euro. Merkel and Sarkozy saving the Eurozone is not, for example, contingent on the Working Hours Directive, or on CAP remaining unreformed, or on the various other powers that many euro-sceptics wish to repatriate.

Frank P

It is quite obvious from media coverage of talking heads from the economic world, particularly those across the Pond, that the Euro will be rescued; the global economy demands it. So this latest jolly is yet another bullshit exercise. Cameron has no bargaining power. His 'bulldog' promise is more bullshit than bulldog. How can a man with a face like a blancmange and a mouth like a hens's arse (ack. Verity or Vulture - not sure which actually nailed that first) make a noise like a bulldog with it.

Problem is even the men with the money have no idea how it will all come down. But for now the Euro stays and 'repatriation of sovereignty' is a snow-job. And we're more likely to get another snow-job or even a blowjob than a referendum.

Vulture

However tight the corner Cameron is in, be assured he will slither out of it again.

Europe has destroyed so many more capable Tory PMs and now it is obliterating Dave..

The difference this time round is that it is visibly destroying itself before our very eyes.

'If Britain is forced to choose between Europe and the open sea it will always choose the open sea' - Churchill.

Time to take to the lifeboats.

Archie

"Europe is the story again." And so it should be!

teledu

The only reason Europe the EU is divisive to the Conservative Party is that so many of their MPs (as in Labour and UnliberalUndems) don't believe in letting the people have a say. Even if the EU were a wonderful, efficient, honest and financially succesful body, it is an absolute disgrace that no one born after the early 1950's is allowed to have a say on our continued membership/relationship with it.
The anti-referendum Torys only believe in democracy until they get elected to Westminster, then all their high-falutin' principles vanish. No wonder politicans of all stripes are so disliked and distrusted.
Ultimately this isn't just about the Euro or the CAP or Human Rights or Free Trade - this boils down to simple democracy and letting the people (not just MPs) have a say. The thought of this seems to scare the s**t out of many of our MPs (and PMs). Whilst we continue to deny the people a say, we have no right to lecture Syria, Iran, Libya, Egypt etc. on democracy.
Europe's political class are anti-democratic and, if that wasn't bad enough, they've also proved themselves to be utterly incompetent and corrupt.

TomTom

Read the German Press, the headlines say it all. Britain is being set up as the cause of the Euro Collapse with Cameron representing his Hedge-Fund sponsors blocking anything Germany might do. Thus Germany withdraws from the Euro because Britain and its City Interests brought the system crashing down around their ears.

strapworld

Frank P..you have certainly upset my hens! Their hind quarters look nothing like Cameron.

That said. Cameron has been extremely stupid by flying off to Merkel and the French puppet promising them that he will support what they must do to save the Euro, which was reported by all news media and never challenged by our weak leader. So before the negotiations start he has weakened our position.

He will get a sort of agreement on the City of London, but that will be ignored when they get the Super 17 grouping which will control the EU. It will be interesting to see if that piece of paper is as convincing as Chamberlain's 'Peace in our time'.

TomTom

Go read Zero Hedge and see how Cameron is going to be in the eye of the storm for it is British Hedge Funds that Merkozy must control or watch the financial system implode and it is Cameron, who like Brown, is defending London's lax regulation because his Puppetmasters sent him to.

Lehman and AIG ran their disasters out of London as did Merrill; this time they will take the global financial system down with them. That is why Cameron is walking into a bear trap and will precipitate the collapse of the Euro financial zone taking full blame

The Oncoming Storm

Thats it Tories! Form a circular firing squad over Europe while Miliband and Balls sit back and laugh while those in the real world worry about how they'll pay the bills!

It really does seem that some "Conservatives" prefer the indignant impotence of opposition rather than take a pragmatic approach. Obviously 2001 wasn't a big enough lesson for them.

xenophon

I'm not sure what the personal abuse of David Cameron on here is designed to achieve. Perhaps it is intended to make the writers feel better: if so, it doesn't appear to be working.

There is too little recognition of the multi-layered dilemma (if a dilemma can be multi-layered) that the PM is facing.

That said, my own wish is that Cameron would give us the confidence he is working for Britain's long term interest. A stable Euro may well be in our short-term interest; in the long run, the Euro is too deeply flawed as an artificial currency to survive. Whatever pain for us may result from its collapse will be coming our way, sooner or later. It may well be that the dire consequences of the end of the Euro have been considerably overstated. Whether that's the case or not, we should be preparing for the return of the lira and the drachma, not wasting effort in trying to postpone that inevitability.

oldtimer

@ Tom Tom
Thanks for the link. That is an interesting read as was the link to the July Thomson Reuters article MF Global and the Great Wall St Re-hypothecation scandal. Most revealing. No wonder Geithner keeps coming over to Europe. It is easy to see why the EZ members will try to blame the UK for their troubles - it has the benefit, for them, of changing the issue. Also it is interesting to see how Goldman Sachs name keeps popping up all over the place as advisor and with former employees now in positions of influence in EZ governments.

kinglear

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Cameron want's towin the 2015 election he will have to either make a deal with UKIP or at the very least give a referendum on it

Axstane

This week David Cameron will one way or the other decide his future, the country's future and the future of the Conservative party.

Meanwhile Angela Merkel wants to go down in history as the woman who finally brought Europe under German control. That will not last long since massive disaffection will hit the streets of many national capitals.

When that comes to pass London will not escape unless our relationship with Europe has changed drastically in favour of reestablishing the sovereignty of Parliament.

The Union itself might well break up under the stresses brought about by a further surrender of powers to the EU.

So far the whole negotiation has been between a world-class poker player and some novices. What cards does Cameron hold to his chest - a straight flush or a busted flush?

Lonesome Dave

Referendum? Disaster? Eurocrisis? Et cetera...yawn.

What, aaarrgghh, the end of civilisation as we know it? Like Y2k was supposed to be?

Calm down - er, to coin a phrase.

Rhoda Klapp

When EU leaders get together, it is not done, it is practically anathema, for any to say they cannot deliver their country. That they can't get any measure through at home, be the problem parliament, or an elction upcoming, or a constitutional court. Makes them look like wimps, not the all-powerful beings they are in their minds. Makes them think we work for them, rather than the other way round. It is a shame that important decisions are made in such an atmosphere, and that our representative (and no doubt his bag-carriers and minions) does not stand for the best interests of the country. He is probably a lot more comfortable with Nicolas and Angular than he would be with his own MPs.

Frank P

Strapworld

Glad to see you are helping the 'war effort' by rearing chickens. Hope you'll still be able to afford the corn for them in a few months time. Strip Tesco shelves of tinned corned beef and Heinz 57 varieties. You could become the last man standing - in England that is. :-)

As for those who object to personal abuse; It's the only form of democracy left and if the straws in the wind are correct that facility is to be snuffed out shortly - vide Emma West. Banged up 'for her own good' indeed! I hope the good folk of Croydon, come the revolution, have already labelled a lamppost for the magistrates' who decided that was the correct Christmas present for her, for expressing frustration and impotent anger. Bastards! Where is Sami and her mob in protecting her 'human rights'?

Frank P

Lonesome Dave

Most of us knew that Y2K was a contrived scam for the IT industry to rip off the taxpayer with their 'preventative' gizmos for the public services not to mention gullible private companies. But it was a one-off. The Euroscam with its multifaceted perpetual Ponzi scams (in particular 'Global War-ming and Carbon Trading) and antidemocratic bureaucratic bullying with the contrivance of so-called 'national' governments is a completely different kettle of fish. Some say it's now 'out of control' whereas some of us believe - nay, KNOW - its very much under control - of those real puppet masters who have the money and ideological aspirations. The only hope for a free world, is that in the ultimate clash between Islam and Marxist control (they are still in cahoots pro tem, but the finale is inevitable as they are ultimately incompatible), someone will be left in some backwater somewhere in England to rise like Phoenix from the ashes and start all over.

But for the time being - wagons roll! - to Tescos. Actually I prefer Morrisons (can't afford Waitrose!). Yawn on LD - but you have a rude awakening a-coming.

Lonesome Dave

Frank P @ 12:18pm

Yawn on LD - but you have a rude awakening a-coming.

Perhaps you're right Frank, perhaps...but until then I'll sleep soundly.

Frank P

Lonesome Dave

Before you go back to sleep, better take a look at the headline on the front of the Speccie cover this week.

It's difficult to brace your buttocks and resist when you are sleeping, so unless you have an esculent pillow, dream on!

Lonesome (and Tired) Dave

Frank P @ 1:38pm

It's difficult to brace your buttocks and resist when you are sleeping, so unless you have an esculent pillow, dream on!

If you say so Frank. Goodnight.

Mr L

Whatever you think about Nadine Dorries (and who doesn't?) she had one good point. On taxing the City of London, Cameron just has to say no. Not 'no, because....': just no. Pity John Major didn't say that at Maastricht.

Robert Christopher

O/T: For any competent IT department, Y2K was a small inexpensive digression from day to day work.
For companies with an incompetent IT department, or none at all, it showed that throwing money at a problem is ineffective, and costly!

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Sarky is not the only statesman who although extremely ugly, misformed and short has an exceedingly attractive wife. Another shortie, again extremely ugly had a beautiful wife, his name was Goebbels. What attracts women to these monsters? Is it money. the scent of power or actual perversity?

TomTom

"What attracts women to these monsters?"

Personality defects and boredom with the first husband - both Carla and Magda were re-treads

michael

The pm needn't take one iota of euro ak ak....
He could let democracy do it all for him.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Please fix the problems in posting on CH Wall. Thanks.