Cameron's Europlan comes together

DavidDP

Good heavens, a sensible Speccie comment on the matter.

Maggie

I hope the PM will stick to his resolve not to pander to the Tory one-trick ponies who've set out their usual grievances in today's Telegraph. Whatever they might like to claim they do not represent the views of the entire country.

Vulture

I hesitate to intrude a little reality on your thoughts o wise one but consider this:

1) If by 'collapse' you mean that the PIGS are going to default and drop out of the Euro then that is inevitable whatever you, Dave, the Brussels summit, Tim Geithner, Merkozy or anyone else do or say. It cannot be 'avoided'.

2) Merkozy is determined on a Toibin tax - which will probably be the straw that breaks the camel's back and forces us out of the EU. NO PM can agree to it and survive.

3) Dave is impotent to stop Merkozy dictating to the Eurozone 17 ( they are doing so already) and to the wider 27 EU.

4) GB has been trying to 'liberalise' the EU market since joining. IT's like trying to graft a Wren church on to a Le Corbusier ground floor. Can't happen. Won't happen as long as the EU endures..

5) 'Repatriation of powers lost to the EU> One can only say MWahhhaaaa.

So where does that leave you Dan? Whistling in the dark as per bloody usual.

Man in a Shed

If the Euro 17 are allowed to proceed then its game over for the UK as a sovereign state within the EU.

The Euro doesn't have to collapse, it can be dismantled in an orderly way. Why are the wild claims only valid when made by supporters of the federalist cause ( and their cynical use of beneficial crises to override the will of the people )?

David Cameron is out of his depth, and has no idea of what direction he needs to travel in. All too late we see we have sent a boy to do a man's job.

Dave B

Roger Helmer pointed out that the estimated damage to the UK economy of a disorderly breakup of the Euro, is no greater than the annual damage to the UK economy done by new EU regulations.

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2011/12/roger-helmer-we-need-to-save-the-patient-europe-not-the-disease-the-euro.html

Jez

Nice peice once again Korski, it reminds me of a book i once read. Here's an extract;

"Doublethink lies at the very heart of Ingsoc, since the essential act of the Party is to use conscious deception while retaining the firmness of purpose that goes with complete honesty. To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing them and to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies - all this is indispensably necessary."

Here's a bit more;

"If the High are to keep their places permanently - then the prevailing mental condition must be controlled insanity..... In our society, those who have the best knowledge of what is happening are also those who are furthest from seeing the world as is. In general, the greater the understanding, the greater the delusion: the more intelligent, the less sane.

It's a good book. I can't remember what it's called though.

Heartless Curmudgeon

... he now has a plan ...

You mean, that vacuuous fop has actually put some thoughts TOGETHER! - instead of muttering innanities?

Pull the other!

Grumpy Optimist

The EU will screw us on finance come what may as it is much bigger than a transaction tax but is instead the chronic and continual deluge of regulations and directives that are throttling us to death.

I agree that repatriation of powers does not cut it any more. The change we need is much more fundamental than that and may at the end of the day mean we effectively leave the EU to stew in their own juice.

Wolf on Newsnight put it well. The Eurozone will now become like a bad marriage which goes on for years infecting everybody who comes into contact with it - but not bad enough to end in divorce either.

Cameron of course does not get this yet and may never.

Mirtha Tidville

So Cameron has a plan has he.......That`ll be a first then..

AlexW

And how to do the most for 1. while getting the best for nos 2-4? State that an in/out referendum will happen in 2013 to allow the British people a say on the evolving nature of our marriage to the EU. Set out the key issues that will likely determine the outcome of that vote (nos 2-5). Commit to continue to support the Euro rescue efforts until our referendum result is known.

Time to let Merkozy know that the ultimate decision makers over our future in or out of the EU will be the British people.

Chris Terry

I agree with you, but I also think that one reason is also likely to be because the EU budget negotiations are coming up soon, and the UK budget rebate is sure to come up again. His hope is probably that if he gives Merkel and Sarko what they want on the Eurozone treaty he'll be able to best protect the rebate.

grassmarket

Ah, so all the plan needs to work is for Cameron to display courage, grit and determination over a prolonged period. I think I can see the flaw....

commentator

Korski, itinerant bagcarrier to the unelected elites parrots the verbiage spoon-fed to him by his masters. Predictably, DavidDP lines up alongside him....

ssleddon

"The consequences of a collapse on Britain's economy are incalculable, but everyone knows they would be profound."

I may be a bit thick here, but what would be the consequences? Wouldn't it just be like everything else - worse for some, better for others, much the same for the rest?

Hexhamgeezer

'Fourth is the liberalisation of the European market'

Sick joke.

Rhoda Klapp

In fact there is nothing Cameron can do to affect the fate of the euro. Ditto Merkozy. It is in the hands of fate and the markets. The political and economic decisions that put it there were made years ago. Maybe it can be fixed, maybe it can't, but this summit will not deliver the fix. It does not even have as an agenda item anything which could help inside a two-year window. Cam is being set up to take the blame. Maybe the tobin tax is a sacrificial negotiating ploy, we will see. Repatriation of powers is not really the point now, what is in doubt is the status of non-EZ members of hte EU. We ought to have a clear idea of what that status ought to be, for the UK. Never mind the other nine non-EZ states, all have their own requirements. Eight are committed to join the euro, their interests do not align with ours. We are going to be entering a new EU, it can't be done by a de facto unilateral move by the EZ. We dare not even debate it, because of stupid party tribalism.

Korski still has the telescope he uses for EU matters, looking through the wrong end as ever, but now it seems he has had it rose-tinted too.

saddleworth

The press unfortunately think in simple terms when it comes to politics. Having years ago had conservative rebellions over Europe, the conservatives are now the party split by Europe.
They probably aren't that split as fundamentally it is an anti-EU party and if push comes to shove a surrender will break Cameron within the party.
The press somehow see the other main parties as united in their views on Europe.
True, it is difficult to tell what Labour's EU policy is. The size of the revolt over the referendum vote was a warning. How would Labour campaign on an EU referendum? They already have a significant number of MPs who are expressing anti-EU sentiments and probably a majority of their voters would desert them on this one. Are their paymasters really in favour of EU? Yes there is a sentimental international socialists all together approach, but jobs and benefit decisions will drive the TUC's approach.
Then there are the supposedly euro-fanatic LibDems. Yes their policies over Europe display almost insane devotion to more EU, but do their voters think the same? They had one MP keeping an eye on West Country voter sentiment in the referendum vote. Could you feel safe holding a LibDem seat in the South of England and campaigning on an EU arse-licking ticket?
The trouble with all this is that the nearer any EU crisis comes, the closer the major parties must look at their voters. They have ignored them, patronised them, cheated them and lied to them over Europe, but can that continue the more the EU becomes an issue. I think not.
At present no major party has a coherent EU policy endorsed by their voters and supported by the members, supporters and MPs. No party can face a referendum, by-election or general election with confidence if the EU becomes a big issue.
The parties will lie and obfuscate to avoid being put in that position and the media won't push them. Why not get off your back sides - force them to set out positions. Split Tories is simply lazy journalism.

Laurent

I am sure the american general got the neologism right, unlike you: stick-to-it-iveness.

Nickle

1. No place for democracy in the list. Dictatorship as usual.

2. The probability the Euro goes under is very high. The reason is that its a solvency crisis. They don't have the money to pay their debts, and more funny money won't work.

Do you chain the UK to the sinking ship, or do you decouple so that when the Euro goes under, you aren't dragged down too?

Maggie. If they don't represent the views, then lets have a referenda. People can then express their views.

Hexhamgeezer

Mr Korski,

Try spending some time in the real world. Like the world of internal EU and external trade. Spend some time in food processing plants and compare the application of rules here with Club Med ones and see how our industry is hamstrung in comparison to the the 'convergent' 'free trade' area that is the EU. Spend some time (if you dare} monitoring Spanish (or French) fishing. Try dealing with worldwide food producers who can now trade with emergent nations at half the trouble and cost of dealing with the EU. Check out the new and improved CAP we've got in exchange for giving up our rebate.

BTW, I'd love to know how 'Little England', the place that would apparently be torn to pieces alone in the big wide world, is somehow big and significant enough to be able to help save or destroy the twitching corpse of Euro finance.

The euronating europhiles out there have never explained that one.

Jez

Hey, this is just an opinion;

Cameron is not acting like the PM. He's acting like a caretaker looking after a building within a complex of other buildings, that when grouped together is called the EU.

Unfortunately the bosses of the EU project are dysfunctional, incompetant and falling to peices.

*CAMERON IS DITHERING*.

The City boys are the main concern 'in his building', denying referendum's are next and keeping the rest of us down without a say is (a much lower btw) priority. The multicultural juggernaught disorientates and adds constant anxiety, thus denying any cohesive uproar at what's happening regards the latter 'priority' mentioned.

Hopefully Cameron can then retire before the building he has been assigned becomes too problematic- and then he can get a lucrative job set up by all the friends he kept during his tenure, a bit like what happened to Tony Blair for instance.

DavidDP

"Do you chain the UK to the sinking ship, or do you decouple so that when the Euro goes under, you aren't dragged down too?"

We can't decouple, that's the point. And it's nothing to do with membership of the Euro or EU, but living in a globalised world.

Even the US will be plunged into recession of the Euro goes down, hence the pressure from them to get this sorted out.

On equivalent logic, I suppose the US should have a referendum on any decisions made, too.....

Hj

There would, indeed, be serious consequences for Britain arising from any collapse of the Euro.

What is not clear is whether this would be worse than the consequences of a prolonged crisis where EU governments attempt to prop up the Euro.

If the Euro isn't sustainable, might it not be better to get on with the break up, i.e. short term pain for long term gain?

Fatbloke on tour

DK

You are gibbering nonsense.

Why is Dave the Rave's prime domestic policy aim the City of London?
We have huge issues right across the policy spectrum and all the son / grandson / great grandson of a coin clipper sorry stockbroker is worried about is the continuing the status quo for casino bankers?

The City of London is part of the problem.
They make their bonuses not through honest endeavour but through churn and being one step ahead of the game.

The Tobin Tax will work as it increases the cost of churn, it means that the chinless wonders need to put more skin into the game and it will therefore reduce Market volatility by making them think twice about punting for the sake of their bonus.

D. Singh

1. The collapse of the euro is inevitable –debt collectivisation – the underlying problem - will not prevent that.
2. They are not going to touch the City – they are bluffing – and Cameron will return as the ‘Saviour of the City’ – daft.
3. Cameron cannot prevent the 17 from forming a bloc inside the EU (they had their meeting on Monday) – welcome to the ‘Continental blockade’.
4. Rhenish capitalism will not permit liberalisation of the market.
5. Cameron no longer speaks about repatriation of powers – that is not on his agendum – ‘safeguarding’ against a bluff is.

William Blakes Ghost

Does anyone else think that Daniel Korski is to the Spectator what Alan Colm was to Fox News - the enemy stooge in the fold?

Its very simple - the EU and the Eurozone was always a delusional act of vanity meant to engorge the appendages of the vainglorious parasitic political elite of Europe and their stooges. Beyond that it was, is and will be an outrage against democracy and an economic disaster. It is an attempt to defy economic gravity (just like Brown's 'no more boom and bust'delusion). Only the demented, delerious and despotic would support it and its further integration and centralisation. The longer it exists the more likely that Europe and perhaps the whole of the western world will be plunged into a 21st Centry dark age.

What is required is its controlled break up starting now (but of course it won't happen). And one might ask what the economic basis of such an assertion is? To which the answer is unit cost supply theory and diseconomies of scale (look it up). Europe cannot afford to sustain the EU and the Eurozone. It is an utterly ridiculous proposition that the social and economic demands and needs of over 500 million people can be served by a single integrated (centralised) institution. It will make paupers of the whole continent (and has effectively made whole nations paupers already).

When will this collective madness of the political underclass stop?

sandy

Rhoda Klapp,spot on.

It's now clear that the die was cast when they went into the Euro.

It may take a few years yet,but eventual break-up is now inevitable.

We now need a debate in the UK about what degree of involvement we want to have with the Euro-zone,followed-eventually-by a referendum.

There's no hurry;the longer we wait the worse,it will get and the clearer the most logical and sensible course of action will become to more and more people.

Dennis Churchill

If Mr.Korski approves it must be bad for us.

starfish

Out in the real world (ie not in political la-la land) the collapse of the Euro is seen as inevitable

There are far too many incoherencies, contradictions and inconsistencies for it to survive

The Euro is a political construction, linked to a political ideal - it had no basis in ecconomics otherwise it would already have existed

For Mr Cameron to go to these negotiations with only 'avoid Euro collapse' on his to-do list is madness

He needs to be sorting out what follows its inevitable demise (along with shedloads of taxpayers' money)

The national interest is not inextricably tied to the Euro's interest, and let's not kid ourselves that Merkel and Sarkozy have our best intersts at heart - so why should the converse be true?

Rhoda Klapp

Wouldn't Cam look a lot better if it was he who was explaining the wisdom of the plan, and his prioirities, as he was incapable of doing as recently as 24 hours ago?

Rhoda thinks the plan is ony in Korski's head, and that DK hopes DC will notice it. Although it does not stand up to examination. Item 3, for example, happened months ago, it cannot be avoided now. Item 4? Not on anyone's agenda, though they may pay it lip service as part of a negotiation. It's on a par with Blair's CAP reforms. Item 5, there is no mechanism, as we all know. Item 2 is not doable. If the other side want to punish the city, they can. Little we can do about it without being prepared to really dig our heels in and get blamed for the failure of item 1, unfairly as nothing the UK does will make a difference to what happens to the euro in practice, indeed nothing the French or germans do either. Now, about that plan..

Cjamesk

It won't make a difference either way, DC and the City of London are in the eye of the storm, the technocrats have their sights firmly on the UK as to be used as the fall guys for any future failures.

No matter how many times the can is kicked down the road the vanity project of the politicos is finished, the near hysterical rantings by the Europhiles is being drowned out by events far out of their control and cheer leaders like Korski will be left pondering what could've been as reality slaps them in the face. The best thing the Eurosceptics can do is sit back and watch the house of cards fall down. In my opinion of course.

michael

Now, every time that a PM needs to bargain, the first thing out of the EU chest will be Tobin. DC's been well and truly skunked.

Graham Funnell

Who knows where all this will end up? Matters are pretty well out of our hands as we try to have our cake and eat it too. One thing that should happen - we could be at a seminal moment with the changes emerging likely to have a major impact on our country one way or another for years to come. In this situation the Coalition Government should offer a dialogue with the Opposition. The differences between us all, leaving aside rhetoric, are small compared with the potential changes coming from Europe. We need to test the possibility of reaching some sort of consensus on the way forward before the door is closed on us.

Yam Yam

Worrying about the future architecture of the EU is too much akin to reshuffling the deckchairs on SS Titanic.

The fundamental question therefore should not be whether the stripey ones look better on the quarter deck but isn't it about time Britain got herself into one of the few remaining lifeboats.

Mudplugger

We have 'played nice' with the Germans and French for the past 40 years and look where it's got us.
They don't understand 'playing nice', they only understand 'playing selfish' and 'stuff the Brits'.
The only game in town is hardball - Cameron must demand every single power-repatriation he can list, with the threat that any refusal will result in a UK IN/OUT referendum, with a recommendation for OUT. Faced with the loss of their softest cash contributor, you'd be amazed what Merkozy would offer - but Dave's not got the cojones to play it that way, he'll just roll over for his tummy tickling as usual.
Makes Heath look like a patriot.

JohnPage

So the plan is give them what they want and then ask nicely for something inn return?

Brilliant.

History Lover

Fat bloke on tour If DC gives in to the Tobin Tax the bankers and their companies will just move out of London and the City will lose lots of jobs and the tax revenue that goes with them. The bankers can afford for that to happen the rest of us can't

Frank P

Daniel

You are the living proof that governments paying wonks like you to advise them is a sure recipe for the destruction of national sovereignty. Please go back to Denmark and do whatever it it is that Danes deign to do in the own dung-heap - and stop showering us us with your defecated pastries!

For those of you that aren't familiar with the pedigree:

*ttp://ecfr.eu/content/profile/C22/

Fuck my old brown boots!

Augustus

"play nice with the Germans and French."

Pardon? Since when is Europe comprised only of Germany and France anyway? Plan or no plan, Cameron does not believe that Britain is exceptional, and certainly doesn't have the iron will to help Britain return to fundamental Conservative values.

Jeremy

Mr Korski,

In my view, you might be best advised to place a hyphen between the 'do' and the 'able'. Either that, or add a second 'o', as in 'dooable'.

In print, 'doable' reads like 'dough-able'.

I shan't even pass comment upon ‘stick-to-it-ness’

Heartless Curmudgeon

Thanks for the link Frank P. ... explains a lorra lorra things about the provenance and general mayhem of so much claptrap, innane policy, and general male bovine effluent that flows freely within our Defence establishments, the EUSSR, - and the environs of the H2B.

What's he doing on the Speccy? Anyone know? Placeman for the EUSSR?

Thoughts of Vichy and Quiso ...

Anyway ... is his pension pot safe and well?

Mr. Bubbles

"The Tory party may not like it, but David Cameron is now finally following a sensible EU policy."

Hahahaha, knew it was Korski as soon as I read that sentence.

fergus pickering

Ah, if a man is foppish, vacuous, spineless, double-dealing, unprincipled and probably a closet sodomite, he is someone who doesn't agree with you. By George, I've got it.

Pete Hoskin

Laurent: Apologies, the mistake crept in at the editing stage. We've fixed it now.

normanc

Whoever at the Spectator office wrote this give yourself a pat on the back - a masterclass in how to troll.

I doff my cap to you, sir.

daniel maris

The Europlan in full:

1. Prevaricate.

2. Procrastinate.

3. Give in.

Paulo

If Merkozy dictated taht from here on in you can't be in the EU but out of the Euro. And that as of Jan 1st 2012 we would have to abandon Sterling, and fork over billions to support the project... CallMeDave would roll over to have his tummy tickled and report back AFTER agreeing to this to claim that this was good for the EU and thus.... (wait for it...) good for Britain.

Of course this is not actually on the table RIGHT NOW, but who is to say it won't appear on the table in short order when this ridiculous attempt to put a sticking plastger on the gaping wound fails - as it will. Whatever they decide, he has NO choice in the matter, unless we leave RIGHT NOW.

And when we leave, we give all those easterbn europeans 6 months to pack their bags and go home so we can replace tham all in the hotels and restaurants and Pret a Manger's across the country. That will cut welfare payments drastically and very fast for many wasting their lives at home on the dole and all those degree'd grads looking for their first job.

It ain't rocket science. We just leave and let the chips fall where they will with a renewed unified sense of national purpose.

Hooks Law

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4650

'FEVERED Tories are to have the purpose of the crucial Euro summit explained to them as slowly as it takes.'

TomTom

"he bankers and their companies will just move out of Londo"

Please. And let them take their liabilities with them. Currently we are sitting on 500% GDP of Liabilities thanks to our incompetent bankers.....tell them to take it all to China

DavidDP

"The Tobin Tax will work "

The Tobin Tax was tried in Sweden. It didn't work, merely sending 90% of the Swedish financial sector aborad (mainly to London, as it happens....). Revenues collapsed.

So, since we have empirical evidence on the impact of this policy, shall we move on to considering something that doesn't damage the UK economy and the Treasury?

Halcyondaze

I'm getting really tired of you Korski

The Mesahib

Paulo says: "It ain't rocket science."

Did you coin that phrase?

Hexhamgeezer

As the song nearly said;

Well the court convened, and you never saw in your life as many people as were at that court. All the ambassadors, the dukes, the earls, the counts, it was just black with people, and they were all told about the magic EFSF. And after they were told they naturally didn't want to appear fools and they said:

"Isn't it ohhh! Isn't it ahhh! Isn't it absolutely wheee!
The FSF is all together
But all together it's all together
The most remarkable FSF Merkozy ever made.
Now quickly, put it all together
With stick and carrot, with bullshit narrative
It's all together the thing to wear in Friday's big parade.
Leading the royal brigade."

Scary Biscuits

No the party certainly won't like it.

The key priority isn't avoiding the collapse of the Euro. This is likely to happen anyway. The only question is when and how disorderly it will be.

It doesn't really matter what the Westminster village thinks of Cameron's plans. As with John Major, reality will eventually catch up with him and then he will look even more of a fool for having kicked the can down the road and ignored the warnings.

michael

The Germans are desperately seeking a scapegoat in the wake of their 'obstinate' do-little approach to all the pleas that have been lobbied in their direction .
The PM (of 'obstinate' Britain) needs to look to his laurels and duck.... Let Sarkozy cop it, I doubt Merkel is bothered either way as long as German voting taxpayers don't have to stump up.

Danielle

Why do we keep trying to push 'liberalisation of the single market', when most other European Countries don't want to do this?

Kevin

"would damage the City and thus Britain."

What is the per capita net benefit of the City to non-City Britons? If there is a net benefit, and it is entirely based on tax revenue, isn't that exactly what is being proposed - a tax benefit derived from the City?

Alternatively, if the City needs protecting from taxes, why not everyone else?

Cynic

"[T]he Prime Minister appears to have decided what really matters to the UK," How can he possibly do that? He has declined to ask us, the people who make up the UK. You mean he's decided what HE THINKS really matters to the UK.

Cynic

Cameron has a plan? No doubt, like Baldrick's, it's a cunning plan. The euro is a failed concept. It can't work. All that will happen will be that the can is kicked a little further down the road towards the ultimate collapse. All this doom and gloom about euro breakup - we had the same thing about leaving the ERM. What happened? Ultimately, the pound and the country recovered and thrived. The same thing will happen when the euro finally dies. At the moment, it's being kept on life support and covered in cosmetics to make it look viable. Reality will win in the end.