Britain and isolation

Grumpy Optimist

Fraser - you put it perfectly well. I cannot imagine a better argued and insightful piece.
But of course what has happened is a massive shock to the SW elites and institutions (BBC, FT etc). And what we will now see emerging over the next few years is further movement - toward a new political/economic consensus which aligns much more with the people (rather than the elite) and which will of course be Conservative.
You know, I really am beginning to believe for the first time, that the Tories might actually win the next election outright.

Austin Barry

Cameron was right to leave Jonestown before they started dishing out the Kool-Aid.

Vulture

You still have not shared with us, Fraser, any cogent political, economic or other reasons why Britain should wish to belong to a club which has done us so much harm and which clearly does not want us to remain as a member.

Still, you too seem to be edging towards the door marked 'Exit'. When the building is on fire, that's probably the best place to go.

Irascible Old Git

Before we turn our gaze to the high seas and recapture the glory days of international trade, can we at least get some growth back into our depressed economy?

According to today's Times, one of the keynote projects in the Coalition Government's national infrastructure plan, the proposed Northern Line extension from Kennington to Battersea, is now under threat because the proposed redeveloper of Battersea Power Station is going into administration.

Not a good start to Britain's revival as an commercial powerhouse.

biggestaspidistra

quite right, but still I'm whistling 'you don't know what you've git til its gone'.

Rosie

I fear, dear Fraser, that you may be wearing rose-coloured specs when you write "then the country will remain - if anything - more outward looking and international than before".

We will have to undergo a sea-change in our main cultural influences before the majority of our newspapers, let alone the noisiest of our politicians, embrace outward-looking internationalism.

The main driver behind the position we find ourselves in today is Little Englanderism. Way to go before we stretch out our open arms to embrace the world as it is today.

Ghengis

Fraser Nelson: I admire the cut of your jib sir.

Verity

They must have known that Dave is sworn to protect the bankers and his and his drab wife's own fortunes.

ButcombeMan

A very good post and message.

The tragedy is that Cameron seems to lack the leadership skills to deliver that message.

I am still left with the feeling, because he did little to assuage it, that he was forced to his position by comment, some of it possibly here. What he did he did because he had to.

That is not leadership.

Irascible Old Git

Now that Cameron has had his say in Europe, presumably he'll stop blaming the Eurozone for its 'chilling' effect on the British economy and start addressing the fundamentals, such as moving it away from over reliance on the financial sector.

Unfortunately, Pigs and Flying spring to mind.

Millsy

I don't see the benefit of us being the EU any longer.

I wish we were in the thick of it, deciding Europe's future. But we're not, and in time (maybe up to 10 years away) we will be screwed by the new Euro Union.

So we should get out, drop our tax rates, and welcome all investors and traders to make us rich and powerful.

The best we could do is make the likes of the French regret ever pushing us away.

Tiberius

A good piece, Fraser, and as Edward says on an earlier thread, the proper word is independence not isolation, which is merely a term used by the lemmings to justify their europhilia.

It is certainly the case that the unfolding circumstances gave Cameron no logical choice but to use our veto, but (as Charles Moore's piece in the DT illustrates) it would have possible for a less sharp mind than Cameron's to wilt under the pressure bearing down on him in that conference room. Everyone was sufferng from fatigue. This atmosphere may have been something Sarkozy was trying to use to his advantage. But no matter - I think the fissures in the eurozone's structures will soon be the new story

Kevin

This article reads as if the author is used to being on the back foot politically. For example, to read a conservative speaking enthusiastically about Labour's policy of mass immigration is about as convincing as hearing a hostage praise his captor.

Does modern conservatism have an opinion about anything other than trade? What about liberty, justice, morality, philanthropy and Christian charity?

Presumably conservatives would oppose trade in the body parts of genocide victims - even if it could lead to a multi-billion pound cure for cancer.

What other things does a conservative value above his own economic gain?

oldtimer

I agree with your analysis of the way ahead for the UK. It does not rest with the inward looking, protectionist EU advocated by Sarkozy.

A key question for the future is how the rest of the EU view the UK. If they want to push the UK out, that can be done by provoking the UK with QMV mandated measures which it knows are anathema to UK politicians and public opinion. If they want to keep the UK inside the EU, then they will have to tread more carefully. If the latter view prevails, then I think that the UK hand is stronger than some would have us believe. If the former view prevails, then the sooner the UK is out the better.

What has been striking is the hostility displayed to the use of the veto both by the BBC and Sky News (on Friday). I am curious why they took this line. Perhaps they were set upon by their continental brethren in the hothouse of the EU press room. They have a lot of catching up to do with UK public opinion.

The eventual outcome of the veto may have been unintended by Cameron, and possibly by Merkel and Sarkozy too, but it has broken a significant taboo. Used once is a reminder that it can be used again.

TomTom

Can we stop getting so obsessed about Britain and think of the disaster that is about to befall Germany ? Merkel is undermining the whole German constitutional structure and driving the Bundesbank towards insolvency. This is a game of ratcheting up the risks and increasing the stakes. Cameron has wisely decided to take his chips off the table.

This is an unbelievable gamble with the futures of 350 million European Citizens in 23 nations whose futures will be blighted as the demographics move in opposite direction to financial resources.

The EU has barely grown since 1999 in any REAL sense, apart from real estate booms, it has exported manufacturing jobs at a terrible rate and left swathes of its regions surviving on public alimony

Gawain

Britain in "isolation", the continent is "cut off" there is a real battle of ideas going on to interpret what happened yesterday. I thought the comment attributed to a French official was the most revealing: "The UK is like a man who shows up at a wife swapping party without his own wife". Describing the EU as a wife swapping party says about all one needs to know about the institution. Presumably the "wife" in this description would be us, the poor UK voters and taxpayers. If so, I am rather pleased that David Cameron didn't take us to this, obviously, rather seedy European gathering.

Also something of an unfortunate comment for a French official to be making after the Strauss Kahn scandal. I wonder how this official will describe the next Euro crisis meeting that is probably going to be needed soon ?

David Smith

At last an articulate representation of my views. It is time for us to negotiate trade relationships with the Commonwealth, and NAFTA and South America and the Far East and yes, with the rest of Europe. The world is out there and I want to be a part of it.

Charlie T

The Euro elites have no real plan to solve the EZ crisis so they have smeared and scapegoated Britain with Sarkozy acting like Robespierre.The Euro was flawed from the start but it suits French and Germans elites to blame another country for their own failings. Both countries politicians and media have history of scapegoating other peoples and creeds when the shit hits the fan.

The case for a referendum is now irresistible. Its been a generation since the British people last had their say on this crucial subject. Since 1975 the EEC/EC/EU has changed massively. Its clear that the Euro elites want a centralised European state with the existing countries dissolved and minimal democratic checks and balances. We need to come to a settled view on the matter for everyone's sake. Its completely out or completely in. Cameron (and lots of people) want to be part of an EU that no longer exists or at least wont exist much longer. A free trade community of friendly nations is no longer an option. The era of the EEC has long gone the next step is a EUSSR.This issue transcends party politics so only a referendum can solve the matter one way or another. We cant keep going on like this, the matter has be resolved. The British people have to decide if Britain is to continue to exist of if we are fine with Britain being dissolved into a pan European super state.

I fervently hope we pull out and have self determination. We can make our own laws to suit our own conditions and beliefs. We can survive and prosper outside of the EUSSR and even if we fail at least we`ll be free. Rise up and be a nation again.

Phil Price

"industries that can't compete globally"?? Germany is globally much more successful than UK and far more economically ambitious internationally - sometimes Eurosceptics get far too carried away with your own line of argument and start talking nonsense.

Simxn

Truer words, Fraser, truer words…

"The facts of life are conservative", so said one legendary Prime Minister, and of course she was right. Short of giving Cameron my support, he was right to act as he did but he needs to go further an now recognise the real power any politician has when they have the consent of the people behind them.

The EU will not allow any negations as you hope for, Fraser. With a referendum, Cameron would have unequivocal legitimacy in simply stating our intention to leave and retake our FULL sovereign rights (fisheries, immigration etc.) This he would do after demanding a pay-out which would allow for this new EU to use what we have otherwise paid for.

Liz Brown

An excellent summary - however, nowhere have I seen mentioned that this latest summit as to be a last ditch attempt to save the Euro and nowhere do I read that this latest attempt by Merkozy does no such thing. We will now witness the long drawn out horror of massive runs on the Euro areas, dragging us all deeper into the mire until one Government finally discovers the balls to pull their country out, thus starting the liberation process.

Jannie Geldenhuys

For 100 years the United Kingdom has fought totalitarianism on the European : the Kaiser, Hitler and most recently Stalin/Brezhnev. Now the Continent is staring down the barrel of Enarque technocratic totalitarianism.

What does the UK have to show for all this? We are left a very much poorer, very much less powerful and generally dminished place.

The last straw for me was the remarkable rudeness of the Lithuanian PM yesterday about Cameron. If it were not for the UK Lithuania would not even be a member of the EU - it was only UK pressure that forced France to allow the old Soviet satellites in.

In retrospect maybe it was actually Halifax rather than Churchill who had it right in 1940.

whatawaste

Fraser

You have articulated that vision thing that was quite common with the politicians of yesteryear - Benn, Wilson etc and the white heat of technology etc. Today's elite cling desperately to their soundbites to such an extent that interviewing them is very unproductive as well as painful viewing.

Even on Europe and the EU today's pro EU elite cannot reason why it is good or necessary. That the summit failed completely to address the issue of debt is very depressing.

daniel maris

The EU is really a giant irrelevance as far as how we want to organise our lives goes. We could be just as happy operating as part of the EEA as paying out a huge wedge to be members of the EU. Personally I wouldn't want even to be part of the EEA as I think it is important for us to re-establish control of our borders. But for those concerned about our links with Europe, the EEA probably accords far more with what British people say they want (to be part of a free trade bloc, but not to pool sovereignty).

May an intelligent debate about all these issues now ensue?

Feste

Your analysis is spot on - Europe is an empire that is in decline even as it is being formed.

Dominic

Well put, Fraser: nail hit squarely on head.

Ian Walker

Never since William the Conqueror has a Frenchman done as much good for Britain as Sarkozy on Thursday night.

Arise Sir Nicolas!

Faceless Bureaucrat

Why Fraser, you sound almost Churchillian.

My eyes are growing quite moist...

disenfranchised

fraser, please don't tell us to pick up the guardian.
put your fish and chips in it (after you've taken out the culture section, the only sane bit), certainly. use it to soak up the wet under your wellies, for sure. but pick it up, and by implication, actually read it? extremely bad for any reasonable, sensible person's well being.....

James

Writing as someone of leftist persuasion, I am pro-Europe but anti-EU for the simple reason that the EU seems remarkably anti-democratic. A charge I am happy to level at our own political system too, but the contradiction cannot be allowed to stand - the more power individuals have, the less power the supposed elites have. Of course, I want Joe Bloggs to have power not bankers in London, so I am not mad keen on the UK economy continuing to be dominated by financial services. But nor do I want a remote building in Brussels dictating to me either.

Andrew Fletcher

This Halfway House - neither in nor out is a hellish position

We must not let the Sceptic MP's believe their job is done

All the sound folk on here must agitate, campaign and fight

Get on to your local MP and start the moves for an in/out referendum to be in next manifesto !!

david

I would agree, it takes a brave man to stand up to the European bullies, we need to completely back away from Europe now and get on with running our country, close our borders and send back any immigrants who are scrounging on our benefits system, reduce taxes on companies and make Great Britain great again, as for losing the city of London financial centre where else are people going to go to run international banking! not Greece as they could not run a party in a bewry, Rule Britania

Frank P

Austin Barry

"Cameron was right to leave Jonestown before they started dishing out the Kool-Aid."

Heh, heh, heh! Another prize-winning one-liner.

Boudicca

"Britain pulls out — choosing not isolation, but world trade." UKIP's policy since it's inception.

How gratifying it is to hear the likes of Fraser Nelson accepting that this is not only a possibility, but is a perfectly rational choice.

I wonder when Cameron is going to apologise for the 'fuitcakes, loonies and closet racist' jibe. Perhapd Fraser could have a word in his shell-like ........

EC

Fraser,

You've just (15 mins ago) had a big "thumbs up" from Daniel Hannan on Twitter who said,

"Who's isolated now? Fraser Nelson has the best summary so far of the Brussels negotiations and what happens next:"

Not only that, I liked your post too! I hope that you can cope with that?

TGF UKIP

Other than that, "as I'd like us to do" a perfectly splendid post, Fraser, but it should really concern you when you manage to get both Tiberius and myself in agreement with you. Sure bothers me.

salieri

Excellent post, but may I suggest, for those who learnt 19th-century history at school (in particular the Dual and Triple Alliances forged by Bismarck's Germany) that the missing adjective before 'isolation' is 'splendid'?

mac

Only Fools and Horses comes to mind.

This was a disaster for the UK - good for the city - but an utter disaster for the UK.

"This time next year Dave we will all be millionaires" ... "Yeah Right!"

Chris Emmett

Well said Fraser, it is often forgotten that it is people who do business, not countries or organisations. We must look out to the rest of the world and use our skills to trade everywhere.

Dr. Stockman

Isolation?

"The strongest man is he who is most alone"

Henrik Ibsen, An Enemy of the People, Act V

Dr. Stockman

Isolation? In the words of Henrik Ibsen (An Enemy of the People):

"The strongest man is he who is most alone"

Verity

What Vulture 1:38 pm said.

RIB

What a load of fence sitting nonsense as Fraser tries to veer his position imperceptibly to the obvious conclusion. It is well past time to leave the EU. Without delay.

Odraude Arrabi

Britain, at least the bit of it being represented by PM Cameron, went to the meeting planning to say no. The Tory PM, whose campaign was largely financed by the City, heard the chips being called in and delivered for the City. So, in the interest of mostly foreign capital and workforce, comprising 8% of the economy, The City prevailed over the 92% of Britain’s economy and workforce.
Everyone has an opinion, but no one has a clue how this EU decision is going to turn out, regardless of what that opinion is. So, since we don't know, think about this... on the eve of 2012, Britain left or was left by Europe, take your pick. 2-5 years later Scotland will have devolved itself to independence. The Welsh may well follow suit. If it happens on Cameron’s watch, what will he do?
Look beyond this EU scuffle though, and you'll see a faint outline through the fog … what it may well be is that perhaps in the next decade, Britain will leave itself, leaving for H.M. England and N. Ireland (maybe).
Now, that’s abandonment, which is a lot different than wife swapping.

KNJGSY

Britain turned its back on its own family of nations when it joined Europe (then known as the EEC). Perhaps Britain should redirect its loyalty back to where it belongs and build economic union with The Commonwealth.

Cynic

"Nick Clegg is pretty much saying that Cameron was all set to cave in, demanding just fig-leaf protection for the City and dropping any demands of the return of powers that he was talking about just three weeks ago." Thanks for confirming what many of us suspected, Fraser. I felt that Cameron didn't expect Merkozy to block him, just as they expected him to cave in. Now that the first step has been taken and endorsed, as I expect it to be, by a boost in the polls, we can only hope that a further withdrawal will get under way. Faced with a choice between Europe and the sea, I, like many others I suspect, will choose the sea.

Cynic

@TomTom "Can we stop getting so obsessed about Britain and think of the disaster that is about to befall Germany ?" With respect, TomTom, this is a British paper and a British website. Why should we not be "obsessed" with Britain? It is, after all, where we live and its future affects us materially. If disaster is about to befall Germany, it is of Germany's making, not ours. The Germans did, when all is said and done, elect Frau Doktor Merkel. We are not to blame.

John M

World trade will save us? Fraser, it's a shame you destroyed your credability backing a climate change denying 'scientist.' Should we trust your ecomonmic views as much as your scientific views?

paulg

What a stupid thing they have done. There will be no restraining the markets,and every European Country will be at their mercy now.

Talk about shooting fish in a barrel.

When you destroy a country there is plenty of money in killing it. The game is afoot.

Gregory

For the first time in many years, Britain is now in a position to find its identity again. Had Cameron taken the road to the EU27, that would have marked the end of Britain as an entity in history.

Cameron had no choice but to do what he did, and if Merkozy were not prepared "to grant" the City of London their "protection" then what was in the deal for Cameron's camp?

Edward McLaughlin

paulg

You speak of 'restraining the markets' - by what means would they be restrained, and for how long, had Cameron assented to latest proposals?

You go further to talk about the killing of a country and its consequences. Can you enlarge on this please, as it seems to me an interesting area of discussion.

I think you are right in asserting that there is a game afoot - a game which should have been started long ago.

AM

Nice fantasy, but have you even been to any of the BRIC countries? The fact is that, in terms of interational trade, the UK is nowhere to be seen, the ubiquity of VWs and Carrefours in Beijing belies your theory of UK internationl, Europe insular.

David Skitmore

Britain finds itself far from being a member of the world's most dynamic trading bloc, we have shackled ourselves to a European corpse. While the euro club has been in decline, the world on which we turned our back has prospered. The cost to Britain of being a member of the European Union is greater than the benefits we receive. Our EU membership also holds us back. It can be said Britain is the world on an island. Our well-functioning multicultural society offers a opportunity to exploit our shared diversity for commercial ends, In the past decade alone, China's economy has expanded by more than 140 per cent, India's and Brazil's by more than 70. Far from taking a step into the dark, we would be rejoining old friends. Britain could once again take her rightful place as part of the global Anglosphere that sprawling collection of English-speaking countries, with which we already have much in common; Australia, Singapore, India, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, the United States. In fact, there is a strong case to let the euro die a quiet and unlamented death.

Fatbloke on tour

Trevor

Bit late to the party but I cannot resist my old joke.

Dave the Rave vs AM.
It would be and it turned out to be like the Graduate but with bigger tits.

Dave has been sent home as a dry, hollow husk of a man.
Used abused and discarded by a rapacious establishment he'll bent on getting what it wants.

Shiny faced PR guys are ten a penny.
One good question for all the Tory, right wing, dog boiling, GIB'by mentalists - What would GB have done?

Finally I have to agree with you.
That is right I am agreeing with you.

NS caused the stushie.
He got done over by AM on points.
So he needed a victim to salve his ego and keep the French establishment on side.

So what could he do?
Very little but bushwhack the wet behind the ears, "Tim nice but Dim" empty suit working for A
Bion.

NS is a bad poker player - big balls raise holding a poor hand - but Dave the Rave struggles with Patience and was the mug at the table.

Result - French cheap shot and the UK folding ASAP.

We will all be hurt if the EU implodes after a Euro failure.
With Dave the Rave calling be shots we are as useful as the Longhope lifeboat was to the Titanic - could help but too far away.

If GB was still in charge he would have stormed the bridge and ordered a change of course away from he ice.

It would not have been pretty, it would not have been subtle but it would have worked.

Given the AM / ECB lash up we now have his intervention would have saved Europe.

Val Duncan

It is still Sunday... wait until the markets open tomorrow.
Obama is getting tetchy about Fiscal Unity without ANY plans to save the euro. Ms Merkel is not flavour of the month there.

check the article

Euro pits Germany and US in tactical fight

michael crockett

It is clear that the EU will devalue the Euro. This will help us, and may well solve the euro at the same time. Sarkozy is dead in the water,

Edward McLaughlin

Fatbloke on Tour

Are you by any chance, the last remaining speaker of some obscure language?

Or perhaps a CB radio enthusiast?

Dr. Stockman

"My friend, the ship called Europe is now heading
Out to sea, bound for foreign parts,
And tickets you and I have bought,
And taken our places both upon the stern,
Waving at the old familiar strand...
And yet - far out upon the open sea...
Of our happiness we seem to have been robbed..
One night I sat alone up here on deck...
All the passengers had by then turned in...
But restless and uneasily they dozed...
Here a statesman lay twisting his mouth
As if in a smile that ended in a croak...
And someone said out loud, and as it seemed,
Suspended half way between nightmare and sickly sleep:
I think we're sailing with a corpse on board!"

From Henrik Ibsen, "A Rhymed Letter",1875

Maddy1

@Gawain
December 10th, 2011 2:48pm

Well said there, but to be honest the French First Lady has been swopped a lot by our rock stars so to them the analogy would be well placed !

Gary Todd

My company is very small (only 17 staff) and we trade with 47 countries and have orders from a further three. 12 of them are in Europe.There is a bigger picture here, well done David.

wlstncrft

How can we be isolated in an ever closer union?

andrew

"Pick up the Guardian and you see Britain cast as a leper, a status conferred on her thanks to a tragic miscalculation by a Prime Minister whose sole aim was to assuage his swivel-eyed Tory MPs and get back on Bill Cash's Christmas card list".

Yep.

Sounds about right.

simon

Of course Cameron had a choice.Negotiating is about picking your spots.To end up in a 26 against 1 situation when Britain had potential allies in Sweden.Poland and Hungary is inept.The incompetence lies like so many foreign policy mistakes in that the British establishment still believes in Britain punching well above its weight instead of accepting the fact that the British empire ending decades ago.In the face of a 17 strong euroland Britain need to form strong ties with the other 10 EU non- euro countries otherwise they will one by one join the euro and Britain may end up joining the euro as it did the EU in the 70`s because it ends up as the `sick man of europe`