Was the PM reasonable?

ed t

Daniel you are quite wrong in what we "all know" about the run up to the summit. What I heard, collaborating with people deeply concerned with matters of financial regulation, was a constant drum beat from Merkozy concerning their desire to regulate and tax the interests closest to Britain. It was anti-diplomacy from the axis powers. Your point is disingenuous, one-sided and unworthy of any kind of journalism worth the name. Not for the first time, you should be ashamed; but it doesn't seem that you understand the word.

Nicholas Hallam

"International — and especially European — cooperation is about give-and-take. It cannot just be take."

I'm sure the Prime Minister will be grateful for this advice.

telemachus'

The implication is that Cameron was unreasonable and blew it
The point is he does not understand economics and does not understand the Euro crisis

If he brought back Gordon as Euro roving ambassador we would not only get our seat back but the Franco-German Axis would have the kind of sound advice that saved us in 2008

Widmerpool

@Daniel
I have read your latest posting with interest but I do find it a bit muddled!

None of us are really sure what the UK's endgame is -probably Dave does not even know himself!

That said the use of the veto has both riled and rattled the Euros Crats and Poltico's. Maybe no bad thing they now know Dave does not threaten but actually uses it unlike every other PM including the Lady.

There is an old saying in Chinrese "strangle the chicken in front of the monkey!" Dave used the veto on just one issue of GB's interest there are lots more including it seems now the cutting of our rebate.

My reading of Dave is he is a high stakes player like the Duke of Wellington and he will play the high stakes game now in Euroland even if it involves[if it can] a General Election on the "who runs the UK" ticket -the Euro's and maybe the Trade Unions or the elected UK Parliament?
Light blue touch paper and retire![Clegg that is!]

Number7

Korski - I thought I was reading the Staggers.

Merkozey put their plan together on Wednesday. How much time did that leave for DC to "negotiate" behind the scenes?

He asked for protection of the city and was completely rebuffed. To paraphrase another blog - "When someone refuses to promise not to do something it usually means this is their number 1 plan".

MartSharm

The gist of this article seems to be somewhat in agreement with the vague Labour proposition: that if only things had been argued properly, the UK would have got what we wanted and we would have signed. I have to say I disagree. Is it not plain that Sarkozy was in no mood for concessions whatsoever? Is it not obvious from today’s events that the whole EU machine cannot stand the UK’s independent stance, as evidenced by comments from Germans that the UK will be “punished”. In short, what the EU wanted was the UK to roll over and sign whatever was put in front of them. It is hugely irritating o them that the UK finally has the gumption to stand up for her own interests. Indeed any thought of looking after one’s own country rather than cleaving to the ideals of the EU as a whole is anathema to unelected beaurocrats like Barroso, and, it has to be said, most MEPs.

One can go round in circles with “what ifs”, but we are where we are, and much better for it. It can of course be spun that we are isolated in the EU, but from what? Any country can have a free trade agreement with the EU, untrammelled immigration from Eastern Europe put huge strain on our already overstretched healthcare and education systems, not to mention the £50m a day cost. The huge question is: WHY BOTHER? There is very little to recommend this failing, expensive, undemocratic charade to the man in the street, and that essentially means this is the beginning of the end. And a good bloody thing too. Then maybe our MPs can start spending their time trying to make life better for their constituents, rather than worrying about EUrope all the time.

Dennis Churchill

Well I’m surprised you side with the Federalists Mr.Korski, so unlike you. I was expecting you to write that the British position was reasonable and the Franco-Germans could not expect a country to endanger an area that contributed the equivalent to the British economy what the motor industry does to the German.
The important thing for the Conservatives is the latest poll for the Sun shows them at the highest level recorded in this parliament at 39% against Labour’s 40%.
The political class keep on about “influence” when the electorate don’t care and the reality is the European Union is now so dominated by the Franco-Germans that other members are no more than provinces.
The important question for Clegg is, has he endangered his EU pension? I don’t think so as he has disassociated himself but Patten should take care, maybe he should resign from the BBC.

JohnOfEnfield

This is fiddling whilst the Euro burns.

Can we have a debate on where Markozy & co are going to find the other 90% of the bailout fund they need to get past the end of next January? They are giving a new meaning to procrastination and they have NEVER shown the necessary drive and leadership to solve this critical problem.

All this worry about where we stand in the bureaucratic nightmare that is Brussels is soon to be irrelevant.

Bert

telemachus'

You need your head examined.

David Ossitt

What no one else on the Spectator blogs nor in the main stream media has commented on is that the Prime Minister of Great Britain was expected to ask, if he needed to ask, a modest favour; from only two others, the leaders of Germany and France.

We are then told that the French President was the one who declined his request.

They; the seventeen are up shit creak without a paddle but instead of looking for our support, our help and friendship the French man took some of that shit and threw it into David Cameron’s face.

On News Night last night that dreadful man Jonathon Powell, claimed that Cameron had undone two hundred years of Great Britain’s attempts to join a federal Europe.

The man is quite insane, in those two hundred years we did exactly the opposite, and kicked both France and Germany up the backside on quite a number of occasions.

In2minds

Gordon Brown, raving not roving.

Heartless P.

Still trying to earn your crust from the EUSSR Danny?

Publius

Clearly Korski and his masters in Brussels intend to do their level best to reverse Cameron's 'No'.

So, no, whatever the Eurozone decide to do should happen outside EU structures.

Whatever treaty they cook up should be outside EU structures and should in no way bind the UK.

Furthermore, if the likes of Barosso try to abuse existing rules in order to circumvent them (an EU speciality - see passim), then the UK should state that it will not be bound by such an abuse.

Echo34

Daniel meet Telemachus. I think it's reasonable to say that you'll be the best of buddies in no time.

Daniels interest in all things EU can be viewed here by the way.

ecfr.eu/content/profile/C22

I'm getting tired of declaring it for him.

JohnPage

These subtle speculations about our pre-talks tactics will be forgotten when disorder starts in Greece & Italy, and small EU countries decide they want no part of the new arrangements.

Jeremy

Daniel Korski:

"Right now, it is not clear if the PM...will prefer to stay in Boudicca mode."

Stay in Boadicea mode, Dave. The costume suits you and the voters like it...

Jules

You can only negotiate if both parties are prepared to compromise; Sarkozy was not.

The left, unfortunately, tend to confuse negotiation with capitulation.

Julian F

Is "telemachus'" really a pseudonym for Gordon Brown? It would be the only plausible explanation for his persistent demands that one of only three politicians named as responsible for the RBS failure should be brought back to fix the Euro.

Rhoda Klapp

Nice financial services industry you got there. Shame if anything was to happen to it.

Vulture

@JUlian F.

You are wrong, Jules, 'telemachus' is not Gordon Brown, but Nigel Farage, and his advocacy of sending Bruin to Brussels is a cunning plan to bring about the sudden collapse of the EU, by firing a deadly Brown missile directly into its vitals.
Then he can boast of ruining them, just as he ruined us.

Walter Ellis

Don't let the buggers grind you down, Daniel. You are performing a valuable service.

The Ancient Briton tendency within the generally benign Coffee House community needs to be confronted. For a start, it should be reminded that the Britons' greatest enemies, following the departure of the Romans, were the Angles and Saxons – who, according to Bede, abandoned Germany to colonise what would become England. Boudica, a proud Celt, would have regarded the present-day English as enemies of her people, who swept in from Europe to destroy their way of life.

Yow Min Lye

"European co-operation is about give-and-take". Yeah, Daniel, we give and they take.

However, now Cameron has put them on notice that we Brits have had enough of wandering the halls of Europe with "mug" written across our foreheads.

Dennis Churchill

Walter Ellis
December 13th, 2011 8:03pm
Bede of course is not now considered a reliable source as he had an “Agenda” (very unusual)
A Germanic language may have been spoken in Britain pre-Roman and DNA evidence (60% of us show markers that go back millennia) shows us to be so Anglo-Saxon that we should have discovered the mass graves of those Celts by now.
English itself shows characteristics that seem to be older than linguistics would expect if you accepted the invasion theory.
Peter Oppenheimer:”The origins of the British” is interesting on the subject.

Walter Ellis

Dennis: I don't doubt that most Brits (and I am a Northern Irishman, incidentally) have all kinds of blood running through their veins. I was simply making the point that Boudica was not someone who would have proclaimed the Englishness of her homeland. Rather, had she lived that long, she would have regarded the Angles and Saxons (to say nothing of those pesky Jutes) as European incomers, to be resisted.

As for language, I claim no expertise. But didn't the Britons speak something rather like Welsh?

Barry Bilge

If I were Merkozy then the recent kerfuffle would suit me down to the ground. Cameron has been a witting or otherwise accomplice to preventing Herman van Rompuy gaining real authority and independence while Merkozy still talk the talk of being good Europeans. All they agreed to was to go back to their own parliaments and see if they wanted to impose their own FTT and legislate for balanced budgets. They do not really want to give Brussels more authority and its own tax revenue.

The only problem with that is they have overlooked a consequence of their game playing - the longer they fail to fix things or admit they can't the more markets are denied a concrete signal about the future ('bail out' or 'fix it yourself', it really doesn't matter so long as markets know what to react to).

Simon Stephenson.

telemachus : 6.50pm

"If he brought back Gordon as Euro roving ambassador we would not only get our seat back but the Franco-German Axis would have the kind of sound advice that saved us in 2008"

Not to mention, of course, all the sound advice he gave regarding the operation of the Financial Services Authority, so perfectly demonstrated by the Authority's inability to do anything to prevent the implosion of the Royal Bank of Scotland, amongst others.

There's also the small matter of Mr Brown's efforts to keep the UK out of the Euro while it was a bargaining counter in his battle with Blair, but I suppose with his experience he'd have no difficulty in performing a reverse ferret if it were necessary to satisfy the French and the Germans that he's always been in favour of us joining.

Chris

Suggest you read Frederick Forsyth's open letter to Merkel on how reasonable Cameron's demands were, and what Merkel or Sarkozy would have done(and have done) when threatened. Not at all convinced by you Daniel. http://www.express.co.uk/ourcomments/view/289553/Frederick-Forsyth

Nicholas

"I am a Northern Irishman, incidentally"

And another English-hating bigot it seems.

Walter Ellis

Nicholas: Not at all. I lived in England for 22 years, working for four Fleet Street titles, including the Sunday Telegraph, of which I was chief feature writer. My son is English, and proud of it. None of the above means I have to agree with those English politicians, or their supporters, who heap abuse on Europe.

ButcombeMan

Daniel
I have said it before here and I will say it again. You, above all who write here, need to understand it.

The bulk of the UK population, across all political parties, will NEVER EVER settle for "ever closer union".

It is against our national culture.

Those politicians, again across all parties, who have foolishly believed that they can change Britain and get us to accept the lack of freedom, democracy and accountability in Euroland, need to think again.

We have had enough. We have reached the tipping point and Cameron was clever enough and lucky enough, to spot it.

The Euro project in current form is a dead parrot, deceased, it has gone to meet its makers.

Cameron was quite right to draw a line in the sand when Euroland was patenly failing to address the real issues.

He is gaining massive political advantage. If the battle with Europe gets more fierce, he will gain yet more advantage.

Greece is going to fail. Others may follow. It is going to be ugly and we are going to suffer, but we need to start preparations now.

Cameron was right not to be part of yet another fudge.

Simon Denis

For goodness' sake! Why is there any question of it's being "reasonable" to seek the protection of the city of London? Are you so mired in EU mythology that British national interest and its expression is automatic heresy? The sooner we drag our liberty, our people and our money out of the bureaucratic abyss of "Europe" the better: a free people in a free country - that is the slogan of today and it will prove surprisingly popular across the oppressed continent.

Mr L

John Redwood was spot-on in the H of C yesterday. You only get 'influence' if you sometimes say no. If you always agree, then you might as well give up. Have the French always accepted things (e.g. reform of CAP)? Thought not.

Cynic

" ... cooperation is about give-and-take. It cannot just be take." Have you told that to the French, Daniel? You know, the French in whose interest the CAP works and for reform of which Blair gave up our hard-won rebate? I mean they gave alright, didn't they?

Cynic

"So was it reasonable to demand what the PM asked for? Most Europeans I've spoken with — diplomats and EU officials — think not." Most British voters and taxpayers I have spoken to, however, think it is. Which of the two, British voters and taxpayers or European diplomats and EU officials, do you think are the more important to the UK, Daniel?

Cynic

"And President Sarkozy has argued that he rejected the Prime Minister's demands because the crisis began in the City." Sorry, the eurocrisis began when the currency was formed (thank you for admitting that, M Delors) and it was deepened when the rules weren't kept to.

Cynic

"Here in Britain it is in Nick Clegg’s interest to persuade Cameron to see if most of the intergovernmental treaty’s provisions could be implemented through normal EU procedures, where the UK still has a say (albeit under QMV),"" Under QMV we have no say at all, being 1 against 17. Frankly I don't care what's in Clegg's interests - the man is a pygmy. I am more concerned with what's in Britain's interests. Having seen the exposé of MEPs' expenses scandals on dotsub.com I am more convinced than ever that we are better off out.

Cynic

"However, this will require giving something more to EU allies as a sweetener than the UK has been used to offering — for example, on the EU budget of European defence — and not blocking the use of the EU institutions for the Eurozone’s usage." I suppose the small matter that the 17+ are not entitled to use the EU institutions for their treaty within a treaty is irrelevant, is it? What do you mean "EU allies"? Judging by all the foaming-at-the-mouth threats being thrown our way by the EU we have only enemies abroad. A club that intends to bully a member for standing up for his own interests is not a club that one should remain a member of.

2trueblue

Yes, Cameron ated perfectly reasonable. He stated the case for the UK.What happens? The French and Germans throw their toyw out of the pram. Time for change, maybe even time for an election. The LibDums are way out of line, they represent a very small part of the eletorate, they should not have been given so many hairs at the table. They have no idea what the end game is. Putting 2 eurofiles in the abinet was madness.

Dennis Churchill

Walter Ellis
December 13th, 2011 9:00pm
We don’t know what language the Britons spoke or at least not the ones living outside what is now Wales and Cumbria.
The Scotti had not arrived at that time and as St.Columba, who spoke Irish, needed an interpreter to speak to the Picts it was not Irish.
In fact the DNA markers in Scotland are more or less the same as England until you get to the Highlands where the Irish (Scotti) can be identified.
Northern Ireland was settled by the Lowland Scots and Northern English.
Who knows what language the Iceni spoke? As I wrote previously there is a theory that the connection between Old English and the common Germanic root language predates the arrival of the Angles and Saxons. So the Invasion might have been something a bit more complicated.

Cynic

Thank you, telemachus' (December 13th, 2011 6:50pm). Best laugh I've had all day! What a masterstroke to send El Gordo over. That'll fix it!

Cynic

This is worth a look:

http://dotsub.com/view/01ad2718-073c-474a-ac40-c7a72e199d55

RKing

The shear arrogance of Burosso, Sarkosy, the ex Belgium PM and the others to suggest that we HAVE to agree to new rules in order to try and protect the incompetence of their failed project beggars belief.
They fail to mention that these new rules will have no effect whatsoever in curing the insolvency of the euro and it leads one to suspect that it was a cunning scheme to involve the UK in their problems.
Well done Cameron it's about time someone stuck it up 'em.

I have just watched Newsnight with Emily Matlis......... uuuck!! what a useless biased load a crap that was.

Previous to Dave's veto I was at the point of turning to UKIP but "IF" he keeps this form up he will get my vote again.

Dennis Churchill

Mr L
December 13th, 2011 10:24pm
Yes we are taught that good negotiations end in a Win-Win. The French tend to go for the Versailles Treaty approach where you grind the weaker party into the ground reducing them to poverty and hopelessness.
The problem with that approach is that they recover and are likely to invade you and grind you into the ground making you sign surrender documents in the same railway carriage.
At your feet or at your throat.

Axstane

What Walter Ellis does not tell us is that he is a devotee of the cause of a United Ireland, growing up with both Socialist and Republican tendencies.

As such it is quite reasonable that he should dislike England, Cameron and all opposition to his avowed causes. Anything that discomfits the English or weakens the Union is good in his eyes hence his discomfort when "people heap abuse on Europe". I had not seen even amongst the Kippers who inhabit these threads a hatred of Europe. What they hate, as do I, is the totally undemocratic nature of the EU institutions in which the only elected people are the powerless MEPs and the control rests with two countries and a host of appointed officials. We also hate its extravagant waste which is unabated even in these times of financial insecurity. We hate the barriers it puts up to Free Trade. We hate the way in which it takes more and more power from democratic nations by a series of stealth measures. We hate the way in which it forced countries who voted No in treaty referendums to vote again until they came up with the right answer. We do not hate the people of Europe who are duped by the political elite.

Russell

A stupid european on (you guessed it) bbc! newsnight has just said the UK is selfish only caring about things like the UK rebate.

Of course the equally stupid woman newsnight presenter didn't ask if she knew or mention the fact that the UK is the 2nd largest net contributor which funds the EU!

Conservative party ahead of labour in the polls as well as Cameron way ahead of miliband, even in the labour supporting yougov/sun poll. Baroness Ashton of the EU gravy train and her yougov husband should note.

Russell

Isn't it about time UK politicians of all parties started putting the poundzone country before the eurozone countries?

In this race,

Cameron has made a good start.

Miliband doesn't know whether to go forwards or backwards.

Clegg has initially gone forwards but then changed his mind and is full speed backwards.

Clear Memories

"....And President Sarkozy has argued that he rejected the Prime Minister's demands because the crisis began in the City."

You cannot be allowed to get away with that crap Korski. The 'crisis' started in the US but the very structure of the Euro, the way it was set up, the admission of nations that failed the so-called financial tests ensured that it always was and remains doomed. The fact that it will bring down the EU and destroy the European political elite is just a pleasant distraction for those of us who hate the corrupt, anti-democratic structures of the Brussels monolith.

The true roots of the crisis lie in the politically-correct granting of mortgages in the US to those with no chance of ever repaying them. Politically-correct because they were granted under duress by smaller banks threatened with charges of racism and accused of failing to issue mortgages because the applicants were black/hispanic, not because they were poor and, very often, feckless.

Go look what Acorn (and others) did and prove it ain't so.

Ian Walker

So the europropaganda is to blame Cameron for Sarkozy's bullishness?

Pathetic.

Craig Strachan

"International — and especially European — cooperation is about give-and-take. It cannot just be take"

Tell that to Sarkozy.

scottishterrier

quote William Hague We will still be at the heart of Europe Bit difficult now being outside the body of europe

fergus pickering

Britain's greatest enemies for the last six hundred years have been the French. Crecy, Agincourt, Blenheim, Quebec, Waterloo and others I have forgotten were French. After that there was a lull as the Germans beat the French and then we beat the Germans and THAT stuck in French craws and still does. We are willing to bury the hatchet but they, of course, are not. Impotent fury is their default.

michael

It is not without irony that the unelected eurocracy seeks to impose economic sanctions upon a democracy for being ...erm... democratic, within democratically mandated guidelines agreed by said eurocracy.
Divide and rule ....the Merkozy strong arm make sure that it feels like 'put up and shut up', or it's every man for themselves within the clubhouse - Might makes right.

Ed Moran

The commentator talks about eroding goodwill. Difficult that! There never has been, is not and never will be goodwill towards the UK from the totalitarian EU.

Sir Everard Digby

Look at the bigger picture. The EU as a trading bloc is forecast to see its share of world trade decline from 36% in 1980 to 15% in 2020; it is failing to compete with China and India. One of its supposed purposes was to increase trade for its members.

Its financial position is questionable; It continues to sign up 'zero contribution' members who then draw on the EU budget. The net contributors should be complaining about this open cheque arrangement.

As an example,we are now in a situation where the Spanish fishing fleets have been a major influence on the destruction of our fishing industry and it appears that Spain borrowed money it could not afford to fund the expansion of those fleets. Had Cameron signed up to the latest agreement,the UK would then have been committed to covering those costs for Spain.a double whammy for us.

Some of its members are in dire financial straits. Others are not viewed well by the markets.

Who would want to remain in a club in this position? It seems the EU label is an emotive one requiring suspension of all reasoning.

Looking at the facts, Cameron could not have made another choice,unless he was crazy.

So what marvellous negotiated position within this mess would Labour suggest could have been acheived?

Looks like a lose/lose deal for the UK to me.

Holly ......

Mr Daniel.
You still don't get it do you.

We Brits don't give a hoot whether European leaders 'hate & despise' us.
Whatever happens from now intil March, Britain has more options than the EU and now they KNOW the British PM is not afraid to use his options.

I seem to remember Cameron saying that he will do the diplomacy first, but if that is not sucessful he will do whatever he feels is right for Britain...NOT France or Germany
So far, so good.

Cameron put his conditions on the table and they were rejected, so he used one of his options.
Europe has had it it's way for over a decade and now the tide has turned.

If any future rubbish proposal comes from the EU, they can no longer expect Britain to go along with it, just to be included.

Let's hope the British people continue to support their Prime Minister and his backbenchers.

Holly ......

'Fighting tooth-and-nail'?
On EVERY issue?

How very un European of Cameron.

Again,I say, it is not Cameron's job to worry about what is in the interest of other countries.
It IS his job to worry about the UK's long term interests.
Cameron may well have decided that getting the mardy French to 'kick us out' would save him a lot of trouble and the cost of a referendum.

What's WGAF in French?

Ruairidh

The thing is Mr Korski the German plan for fiscal unity is nothing to do with the crisis at hand either. It is, at most, about designing the next generation of stable door while the horse is still rampaging. At worst it is a political stunt that will make matters worse and push the entire eurozone into recession.

Walter Ellis

Axtane: It's true I support a united Ireland, and that I am inclined to the Left in politics – though no further than the Lib Dems. But if I could have had my way in history there would be a united Ireland within a United Kingdom inside a united Europe. So not much joy there. The whole shebang is falling apart.

While we're on this, let's not forget the Scots. If Britain continues to be a basket-case economy (and never mind that the Scots have played their part in this), and if England makes it clear that it wants no part of the EU, then I would expect to see Scotland split away from the UK and – as reported – rejoin Europe within a Nordic alliance.

As for Ireland, the North is fairly well governed at present. Who would have thought that Sinn Fein and the DUP would be so drearily "sensible"? And the Republic is coming back from the brink, led by exports. It remains in deep trouble, but is starting to pay its way again. United, the two parts of Ireland could prove to be an excellent small country.

Now then, come on England! Give up your loathings and get on with the business in hand. You need to rebuild your manufacturing sector and rein in the the City. English people need jobs, not hot air, which is all that Cameron is giving them.

Ruairidh: I think you may have a point there. Cameron may be mad, but he's not the only one.

WIlliam Blakes Ghost

Oh dear not another tedious piece of irrelevence from Planet Eurotrash. When will they realise for better or for worse we don't want their delusional vision of Eurohell. NO means NO....

Brūlent de l'Union européenne en enfer

Marcher Baron

"What's WGAF in French?" WGAF, c'est quoi en anglais, Holly? And please do not assume, like those who asked for a Welsh translation and slavishly put up the Welsh for "there is no one in the office at the moment, please call back later", that I have given you the French for WGAF.