Cameron's missing the point: Christian values require Christianity

Tyrell

Fides quaerens intellectum is actually Anselm's phrase, but based on the theology of Augustine.

Andrew Tennant

The author of this piece is an idiot.

Two people can make the same choice, or express a liking for the same thing, on the basis of different reasons.

There is no necessity for religion for the historical values of a religion to be applied.

normanc

As an atheist the implication that one needs to believe in a religion (I guess any one will do - or are we limited to Christianity?) to have a firmly grounded set of moral values is vaguely insulting.

But it's neither here nor there, certainly not something worth getting worked up about. There are a lot of Christians who wouldn't give you the time of day and a lot of non-believers who can't do enough for the local community.

Religion was a cornerstone of our society in days gone past but now a stable, loving family with at least one parent in employment is, in my opinion, more important in the grand scheme of things.

DavidDP

Christian values flow ultimately from Jewish values. Ergo, using your logic, what this country needs is to return to Judaism.

[Goes off to buy shares in mohels]

Ghillie

Amen to that, Melanie.

Steve Fowler

Here's a Christian value for you Mr Cameron... Does the following quote sound like the words of an all loving and caring God, or the words of an evil over zealous ulterior motivated ancient Middle Eastern tyrant and blatant liar? "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments." This is an extract from the second commandment of the ten commandments, and it's connotations are absolute pure evil and totally immoral!

fergus pickering

normanc, your opening phrase 'as an atheist' is floating free of grammar. You could fix it if you wanted to and you should want to. Also, how is one 'vaguely' insulted?

Kittler

A return to Christianity? What, no more storing up treasure on Earth, no usury, self denial, turn the other cheek. What sort of Toryism is that?
Other add the ones they favour.

Olu Ojedokun

There are many good points in this piece, but I have to disagree that with the central thesis here.

I did my doctorate research on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, and I was able to establish that the imposition of Christian values in resolving its conflict was able to happen even though the country was not specifically Christian. (The principle was that the perpetuators of aparthied confess all and provided they were honest about it they were granted amnesty)

It is therefore possible to have Christian values dominate even in societies where most are not Christians.

Kittler

If anyone thinks ancient scribblings useful in the modern world, would suggest the Greek/Roman stuff, rather than the Hebrew.

Millsy

If Christianity didn't exist now, I doubt whether anyone would bother inventing it. It's an anachronism and a specific explanation of our place in the world that is 2000 years out of date.

Keith C in NY

Hitchens not yet in his grave and we get this piffle? Actually the author has tidily illuminated the problem with all the religionists - if you're not one of us, then you're not moral. Therefore I may kill you.

Russell Henley

I think Mr Cameron is somewhat misguided in wanting a return to Christian values. And the author of this article has clearly jumped on the bandwagon to promote his own religion. Clearly you are going to pick and choose your Christian values (i.e. not the ones around oppresion, scientific repression, poverty and hatred of other faiths...)

I'm an atheist - have been for quite some time, have no plans on changing that. Does that mean I can't have so-called Christian values?

No. I have a very clear moral understanding of what is right and wrong, but that stems from core ethical code that hasn't come from some 'higher power', but is simply about altruism. Admittedly I do appreciate the value of scientific discover and agree that you should not judge other people by their colour, faith, sexuality or gender.

Which are of course historically very un-Christian.

You can follow the ten commandments if you won't (I wouldn't recommend it). Or you can follow the simpler logic of 'would I like it done to me? No? Then I probably shouldn't do it...' Doesn't take a preacher (of any faith) to tell you that.

I think I'm much better of as I am thanks!

David Cameron - Heir 2 Churchill

"What we need – with all respect to other faiths – is a return to Christianity."

More to the point, what we need ia a return to an Anglican Church worthy of the name which actually stands-up for such values...

Robert Christopher

Steve Fowler:

Children ARE detrimentally affected by their parents poor behaviour. It is not far off a definition of poor parental behaviour!

The quote you mention states that it can also affect grandchildren and great grandchildren.

This is not unheard of, but not always inevitable because of another part of the quote.

Paraphrasing, the quote also says that anyone, including the very same children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, can improve their lot if they 'love Me and keep My Commandments'.
I would expect that means, if they come to their senses and they themselves make better choices in spite of their parents' behaviour they would have more fulfilling lives.

It is just as true for the fortunate as for the less fortunate, so what is so evil and immoral about the passage?

Verity

Steve Fowler ... Ah, the old ones are the best! We used to argue that point in Sixth Form, imagining ourselves, from the elevated perspective of the Sixth Form Common Room, to be discovering valuable truths.

Mycroft

'It's an anachronism and a specific explanation of our place in the world that is 2000 years out of date.'

Aristotle is of course even more out of date, while Piers Morgan and Jeremy Clarkson live right now.

Robert Christopher

Millsy:

"If Christianity didn't exist now, I doubt whether anyone would bother inventing it. It's an anachronism and a specific explanation of our place in the world that is 2000 years out of date."

Do you mean that in the same way that "[i]f Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica didn't exist now, I doubt whether anyone would bother inventing it. It's an anachronism and a specific explanation of our place in the world that is 300 years out of date."

But we still talk about gravity and assume, in every day life, 'now' is not confined to 'here'.
We still believe in these concepts and base our lives around them because we find they work even though Principia Mathematica was written in an anachronistic language.

Frankie Heywood

I think it's OK that Mr Cameron 'does God', It's more than the Archbishop of Canterbury does - he's more interested in the evils of capitalism than the difference between right and wrong

Martin

If I knew a child was being raped, I would go to the police. My first instinct would not be to protect the rapist by telling lies or threatening the child.

As we now know, the Catholic church struggles with this not-very-difficult moral dilemma. Signing up to Christian dogma isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for grasping basic morality.

As for the persecution of Catholic adoption agencies, you're still allowed to pursue your morality by attacking gay people as sinful and objectively disordered. But you're no longer allowed to let this hateful claptrap interfere with finding loving parents for orphaned children.

Verity

Look at Davey Blancmange's stupid little face, screwed up with effort while he mimes "sincerity".

Philip Collinson

An excellent article which would be endorsed by thousands of Bible believing Christians in the uK today.

GDS

Robert Christopher, the difference being that Newton's piece remains true whilst the bible is a fairy tale about someone's imaginary friend. I am an atheist but adhere to Western Moral Values which, whilst christianity claims them, are actually all about a functioning society and happily stand alone outwith a religious context.

fergus pickering

Steve Fowler, the Commandments have nothing to do with Chistianity. They are Judaic. Did no one ever teach you this? The Beatitudes are what you want and there are only two of them.

David Lindsay

Even to those of us who have left it, the Church of England’s record of combating moral collapse more than bears comparison with that of the Conservative Party over the last 30 years - http://davidaslindsay.blogspot.com/2011/12/not-afraid-to-say-it.html

Kittler

Philip Collinson, Christians in the UK do not believe the Bible. If they did, their lives would be impossible. They perform gymnastics with interpretation or more usually, just ignore the difficult bits.

Noa

Frankie Heywood

"...he's more interested in the evils of capitalism than the difference between right and wrong".

Which is distict again from the difference between good and evil.

Cogito Ergosum

@Kittler 2.30pm

I endorse your comment. The works of Euclid, ca 300BC, have been far more use to mankind than any religious work: not just practically, but as a demonstration of the power of logic.

Those contents will survive, or be rediscovered, long after homo sapiens (what dreadful self-flattery there) becomes extinct.

Jeremy

fergus pickering:

"The Beatitudes are what you want and there are only two of them."

I believe it was The Beatles who sang 'Now gimme money (that's what I want).'

And there were four of them.

Praying for you

Good luck with the atheism, multi faith and ignorance when you stand before the Lord on judgement day. seek the truth with your whole heart... you will find Him. God bless you this Christmas.

Paul Danon

A secular government could make good laws without the nation's culture being Christian and without the leaders' being devout. A secular government could outlaw divorce and obscenity because marriage and decency conduced to the common good. It'd be nice if everyone was Catholic but we needn't wait till then to seek a just society.

Philip Collinson

Kittler. Most of the thousands of Christians that we are linked with from various denominations hear the Bible being opened up Sunday by Sunday, without gymnastics of interpretation. Over the past 25 years I have preached through most of the books of the New Testament without missing out any of the difficult bits. The heart of the Christian Scriptures is Christ and him crucified.

wrinkled weasel

I find it risible that this kind of article attracts people who firstly will not accept that Christianity is anything other than the mad rantings of the unhinged and secondly that they appear at the same time to be expert theologians.

It's not a very convincing base in which to argue a point, is it?

To put in into language they can understand, they are relativists: those who believe that they can pick and choose what they believe and (even more arrogantly)how they will adhere to it.

These people have missed the point, a point which Melanie clearly states at the end.

Christianity is about stepping down from your little pedestal, stop playing Ozymandias and place God a bit higher than yourself in the scheme of things.

In2minds

@Jeremy -

You seem confused, the Pope is called John Paul but the Beatles were known as John, Paul, George and Ringo.

ian rich

Christianity is simple really. God dema

Robert Christopher

GDS: "... but adhere to Western Moral Values which, whilst [C]hristianity claims them, are actually all about a functioning society and happily stand alone outwith a religious context."

Are you talking about the media's presentation of the Church of England, today? If you are, then I would agree with you! And that is why it is so ineffective.

While Christianity has contributed greatly to Current Western Moral Values, I would be suprised if any Christian would 'claim' these values as their own as they are still being worked on.

Philip Collinson and wrinkled weasel describe the situation well, but that is a bit extreme for today's politicans, hence we get the headline "Christian values require Christianity". From current evidence, it is also a bit extreme for today's AoC, hence Cameron's speech!

Newton's piece is NOT true. Einstein's is a bit better, but that isn't settled science either, it never is in science!

You didn't object to my conclusions, so I take it you find them acceptable to your 'Western Moral Values'.

ian rich

Christianity is simple really. God demands a death as a sacrifice for our eternal transgressions of His laws. Jesus was that death, on our behalf. If we don't accept that, we bear the consequences. ( Whoever beleives in the Son, has eterenal life, but whoever rejects the Son waill not see eternal life, for God,s wrath remains on him. John 3:36 )

TrevorsDen

Ah - reading all sorts of efforts to come to terms with theology - and then along comes Verity.

Kittler

Philip Colliston. Your New Testament is the product of a committee meeting organised by the Emperor Constantine. Lots of difficult stuff, like the Gnostic Gospels, was discarded when the Christian literature was edited into the NT. Your scriptures could have been very different if the texts had been decided another way.

disenfranchised

the west must never be seen to be giving up on their christian values.
christianity must continue to be a bulwark against the religious tide that would swamp our world.....

SD

"It's because of who and what Christ was that we take to heart what he said about loving our enemies, turning the other cheek." If by we you mean Christians, then I think this should read "It's because of who and what Christ is" - the resurrection is, I should have thought by any reckoning, a fundamental of the Christian faith.

bojimbo

Religion is just a word . God loves homosexuals etc . but the Catholic church preaches against them . Who is right ?

Herbert Thornton

The headline is quite mistaken. It is not necessary to be a Christian in order to behave like Christians and share their values.

Many years ago I heard an interview of an old China hand. He'd once lived in southern China, not far from Hong Kong. The interviewer asked him how he'd got along with the people there. He said that he'd formed a very high regard for them. He found them, he said, to be "really Christian people". Everybody immediately knew what he meant.

It was all the more striking that he expressed it like that because the old China hand was not himself a Christian. He was a Jew.

daniel maris

I think it's wrong to say we are a Christian country. Better to say we are a country that has always had Christianity as a core influence. But you can also point to our classical inheritance - the great stories of Greek mythology and the pre-Christian giants of Latin literature. Shakespeare - another huge influence on our culture - was not purely a Christian writer. We also have the river of common law running through our history (though that has largely dried up) - which had purely pagan, not Christian roots.

Then of course we have the enlightenment as a great source of our modern culture and practice.

Cameron is an unconvincing Christian - mostly multi-millionaires are if they claim to be Christian.

Frank P

TrevorsDung

"And along comes Verity..."

And points out the transparent posturing of a piss-poor politician who appears to be attempting to harness Christian faith for electoral purposes, while laying off with expressed 'agonising' that will placate the secular sector. Thus Verity renders pointless the waffle of 'the all sorts of efforts to come to terms with theology'. In other words the she immediately sussed the ruse. Astute, philosophical and succinct!

And of course attacking Verity obviates the need for you to nail your colours to any mast or cross.

Keith C in NY

I could be wrong, but I detect a little irony in Collinson's point. Actually, thousands of them.

Dimoto

Christianity in Europe was an historic accident.

The Indo-European tribes were first to (desert inspired) monotheism, including respect for nature, disbelief in "evil", absolute belief in "good" and basic rights and tolerance.

However, Imperial Rome was at constant war with Parthian/Sassanid Iran, so despite a certain fascination with Iranian religions, they were never likely to become Zoroastrians.

Rome and Constantinople chose a "semitic" religion.

However, given that almost all of the mighty artistic achievement of Europe is inspired by Christianity, repudiation (Dawkins stylee), is a bit childish.

Cynic

"What we need – with all respect to other faiths – is a return to Christianity." I don't think Christianity ever left. What we need is to reaffirm that historically it had a vital role to play in the shaping of our society and institutions. It made us what we are today. We need to be clear that Britain is a secular country with a Christian heritage - and to stop undermining it with moral relativism and a slavish belief that all other faiths are more important and should be given priority over Christianity. Compared with some religions, Christianity affords women more rights due to the Marian tradition.

Animal Mother

If I'm going to die for a word, my word is poontang.

'Mandy

Lot of confused comment here.

Read what Christ said.

Not a lot of confusion left.

Heartless P.

Oh dear, - and I thought the H2B had avoided that aspect of his Hero.

However, in the absence of anything but opaque waffle from the titular head of the Anglican Church, it's nice to hear someone, - at least, - in public life, draw attention to a Faith that permeates or upon which our National Life was founded.

Oh well.

Dimoto

Frank P - I think that Cameron (after biding his time), simply chose this (Christmas) opportunity, to aim a sly kick back at the confused primate.

I wonder if Verity has noticed the facial resemblance between Cameron and "old blancmange face", Arthur Wellesley, the Iron Duke ?

Alan Douglas

"Christian values require Christianity"

No. I am not a Christian, but as someone who grew up and learned within a Christianity-based society, I do subscribe to many of its values. I also reject some, but that is true of professed Christians as well.

Even the present Archbish rejects some of Christianity, such as "To him that hath, shall be given, from him that hath not shall be taken away even that little that he hath" - he seems to be in favour of taking from him that hath to give to the feckless and/or poor, who sadly will only waste it, simply because they are in a state of being or mind where they are incapable of HAVING. Bringing them up to an ability to HAVE should be the first step.

Alan Douglas

David Lindsay

Kittler, the Canon of Scripture was fully formed long before Constantine, and in the New Testament case, above all that of Gospels, it has never really been in any dispute. Pieces of nonsense like the Gnostic Gospels were kept out for the perfectly good and simple reason that they were universally recognised to be pieces of nonsense.

As for the Creed, when Constantine assembled representatives of his vast Empire's disparate local churches, which had often had little or no contact with each other, they spontaneously confirmed with one voice the doctrines that they had all held since the Apostolic period, 250 or more years of savage persecution previously.

There is a reason why people will be reading the Bible and reciting the Creed in two thousand years time, but they won't be reading Dan Brown. It is the same reason why they are not now reading the Gnostic "Gospels".

Richard

Religion is evil

fergus pickering

Atheism, my old millsy, is much older than Christianity. So is the thought of, say, Plato. It does not follow that these creeds are out of date. Scientology is bang up to date and Himmler's warrior religion (invented by Himmler) is less than a hundred years old. Marxism (invented by Marx) is only a little older. However, they are all balls, are they not?

normanc

fergus @ 2.15pm

Sorry for late reply, haven't checked in before now.

As to the grammar, it's the intrawebz, more or less a flow of consciousness, some of it good, some of it terrible. Don't get hung up on what people say or how they say it, try and instead draw the meaning.

Such as my 'vaguely insulted'. I feel I should be insulted and be furiously battering out a fleck spettled rant but actually I just think 'bleh, whatever' and get on with my day.

Which I imagine is sound advice for everything you read on the net!

Millie

The colour of your belief, whether that be Atheist, Jewish, Pagan, Muslem, Christian, Jedi or 'whatever' is no indicator of one's inner moral compass. Cameron has clearly dropped the ball on this one and failed to understand that the UK is no longer (thankfully) a country dominated by an intolerant, patriarchal and politically motivated religion but is now a colourful patchwork of multi-cultural beliefs. The fundamental concept of morality does not lie in the dogma of one religion but within the individuals of a society who see such values demonstrated by those who are set up to lead them. It is our government and greedy politician's failings as decent human beings which causes riots and protests. Lead by example, not by passing the buck to a religion which has a pretty bad track record for tolerance in the past!

john gerard

Aw, boo hoo! Did someone mention Christianity to the poor atheists? I've got news for you, fellas. You're in the minority in the world, and shrinking. Aside from billions of Christians, there are also billions of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews. And you probably think religion can't possibly play a significant part in the world this century. But you are so wide of the mark, it's laughable. You need to open your eyes and see what's really happening in the world, rather than the secular fantasy which, to the vast majority of the planet, is totally irrelevant. Full disclosure: lapsed catholic.

Occasional Ostrich

In2minds 17th, 5:28pm

Your tenses likewise seem confused.

TomTom

Thatcher was not a Methodist. She may have been raised one, but after marriage was Church of England

Augustus

Atheists constitute about 2 percent of the population and 98 percent of all the negativity at Christmas time. I cannot begin to tell you what I would like to do to these cretins and killjoys.Atheists constitute about 4 percent of the population and 98 percent of all the negativity at Christmas time. I cannot begin to tell you what I would like to do to these cretins and killjoys. And the really annoying aspect of Christmas in recent years are those self-righteous people who object to a crèche or a Christmas tree on public property and who go around insisting that we all say “Happy Holidays” instead of Merry Christmas. If Christmas offends you, I recommend you move to Baghdad, Tehran or Riyadh, Saudi Arabia where being found with a Bible is a criminal offence. In short, get out!

Val Duncan

I agree with Alan Douglas having also been raised in a Christian society, although I later became a agnostic as far as religion was concerned. ALL societies need values, they are like the unwritten laws that grease the wheels of communities and as far as I can see the Christian values are as good as any. It has nothing to do with bashing on about God and everything to do with how we relate to each other.
Some of you are pulling religion apart into such minute pieces you are getting buried in the shredded paper.
It doesn't matter whether you are religious or not... or whether X wrote this and Y wrote the other. All that matters is we bump along together with the least friction and have a society that works.

Kittler

Augustus, As a youth in Scotland, when it was a more religious society, I worked on xmas day, it not being a holiday and not much observed. In a more distant past, when it was a fiercely Christian land, celebrating Christmas would get you persecuted.

fergus pickering

A colourful patchwork of multi-cultural beliefs - wow! Worshipping elephants, sacrificing cockerels, beating women, chopping up children, marrying a plurality of wives, cutting out large portions of a girl's anatomy... colourful stuff!

John Richardson

"But the texts certainly don't unequivocally back either homosexuality or a female priesthood..."

Ms/Miss/Mrs McDonaugh,

I cannot believe that you are as ignorant as the above statement would suggest.

'...don't unequivocally back homosexuality'?

Pathetic, dishonest and lazy.

Above, you are knowingly attempting to twist and to pervert the message of the Holy Bible in respect of sexual perversion.

Why?

Who do you think you are fooling?

Yourself?

John Richardson

"But the texts certainly don't unequivocally back either homosexuality or a female priesthood..."

Ms/Miss/Mrs McDonaugh,

I cannot believe that you are as ignorant as the above statement would suggest.

'...don't unequivocally back homosexuality'?

Pathetic, dishonest and lazy.

Above, you are knowingly attempting to twist and to pervert the message of the Holy Bible in respect of sexual perversion.

Why?

Who do you think you are fooling?

Yourself?

What will such dishonesty gain you?

Interested

I think you can statistically show that far more blood has been shed this century by the atheistic governments (Nazi Germany, communism etc) than by 'religion'.
Secularism, humanism, atheism do not have the ability to transform the human issue of self-centredness that drives us to gain at the exoense of others. Only Jesus does. This is a primary message of the Christian faith.

Kevin

Sky News decided to interview Richard Dawkins about Cameron's speech. Dawkins remarked that morality is merely a matter of "doing unto others, etc.". This is an inadequate jurisprudence to offer in contrast to centuries of Catholic law. Who qualifies as an "other" in Dawkin's morality? An unborn child? Are divorce and adultery prohibited? If it is permissible to covet another man's wife, what about his goods? Why should a man whose wife has run off with an investment banker forebear from taking the latter's expensive car?

Dawkins is also disingenuous in characterising Christianity on the basis of Old Testament interpretations of the law when one of the most prominent features of Christianity is Christ's revelation of the true spirit of the law. This included the rejection of old dietary rules, of an excessive interpretation of the Sabbath observance, and, of course, of vindictive punishment.

Dawkins is so out of touch with Christianity he might as well claim that it requires circumcision.

Occasional Ostrich

Interested 18th, 7:54pm

Why do you think you should be permitted to exclude the wars and other persecutions carried out in earlier centuries in the name of religions?

globehopper

I'd love the author of this piece to tell me when this "golden age" or morality was, the peak from which our "moral malaise" began. Maybe the Victorian era, when everyone was "Christian?" - when we love the poor in their workhouses and had a merciful, gracious attitude to the "barbarian" inhabitants of the empire?! Millions of Britons today care for the poor, care for the environment, care about justice for the oppressed. Tolerance, religious freedom and the rule of law are enshrined principles. We are less sexist and less racist than we ever were. I don't deny that we have plenty of problems, but this 'moral malaise' is pure fantasy. Maybe the author wants us to look to the Republican Party across the pond, which seeks to return America to 'Christianity' by slashing welfare, giving tax breaks to the rich, deporting immigrants, denying global warming etc etc etc...

Miggy

why is it that only the Old Testament is quoted regarding homosexuality? What about Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians?

David Carson

If Mr Cameron is a Christian, as he claims, then he ought to follow Biblical precepts. The only equality to be found in the Bible is equality under the law of Gods as promulgated in the Ten Commandments. The promotion of same sex marriage, which the Bible condemns in the strongest possible terms, the indoctrination of children with porn; under the guise of sex education, his continuing support for abortion, hardly square with his claim to be a Christian.
As for the various atheists who denigrate the Bible-where are your moral values codified? I have yet to hear of any atheist opposing abortion for instance.

John77

What can I say?
David Cameron admits to being imperfect, but wants to see improvement. Others (including one who thinks "Melanie" is male) assume they are perfect and all-knowing (like Hitler and Orwell's "Big Brother", based on Stalin).

Ashley DICKENSON

Richard: how can you claim religion is evil?
If it's because of war / conflict, this is because religion becomes a convenient label. Yet if others find comfort from religion - as my late Mum could have told you - well, I rest my case.