Rudd's straw man argument about our EU membership

Ian Walker

Except the powers-that-be, influenced by the software giants, want software patents to be covered by the single EU patent office.

This is the brilliant plan that has within a decade turned Silicon Valley from a hotbed of innovation to a lawyers playground.

David Ossitt

“Yes, as Rudd is quick to say, the single market has been good for Britain, and measures such as a single EU patent would provide a major boost to entrepreneurship.”

I am feeling a bit irritable today and so that might account for my wanting to post “bullocks” in answer to the above.

To say that ‘the single market has been good for Britain’ is a monstrous whopping great lie; the cost has far exceeded any benefit and when one factors in our loss of sovereignty and the ever constant pernicious intrusion and meddling by non-elected bureaucrats in all aspects of our daily life, then bollocks is not strong enough.

rightminded

The only model we want is OUT!

anyfool

Burdensome intrusion. Haigh and the German foreign minister have just announced relief from regulations for small business employers and none of you thick media reporters thought to ask why just small companies when it would be even more burdensome for bigger companies, and just because they can afford it is no excuse for having them. people like Rudd would be nothing if they did not have all these rule and regulations with which they can write articles about.

Tom Pride

Influence – the fairy dust one must endeavour to acquire no matter what the cost but which one must never use lest it disappear in a puff of smoke.

The EC is a stitch up in which we get to do as we are told. The French have a droit de suite tax and so we (for right or for wrong, for economically good or bad) get the Artist's Resale Right, extended 1 January 2012 retrospectively to artists who have died within the last 70 years.

It’s always the same – common fisheries in the North Sea but not the Med. How about, in the name “Solidarity” the continentals join us in driving on the left?

disenfranchised

you never stop hearing those norwegians moaning about the effect the EU has on them. moan, moan, moan. can't pick up a paper without reading about yet another norwegian company suffering because of EU rules. poor old norwegians.
get real rudd. i could give a list that would drop right down to your keyboard of why we will do absolutely fine for being away from the EU, but let's keep it simple. what about saving ourselves the odd hundred billion pounds that could be spent getting our roads up to the standard of some of those EU countries we're having to piss taxpayers' money on.....

graham

It's time for the UK to get off the EU train heading for oblivion! As can be seen from the Horlicks the EU leaders are making of trying to solve the Euro crises. If ever there was a group of tne useless leading the utterly useless, this is it!

David Parker

Rudd, like so many arch europhiles, is incapable of admitting, or even recognising, that he was completely wrong both in advocating that Britain should join the euro and in supporting our participation in ever closer union within the EU. If he is incapable of learning from his mistakes his views upon our future relationship with the EU are unlikely to be any wiser or better informed.

michael

"simply don’t belong at EU level" relace with, 'aren't fairly or evenly applied at EU level'.
Which pretty much sums up the whole EU folly.
...NO-body really wants it to function as a collective. It's become merely a glorified get rich quick scheme. Even its cliche sales pitch, in or out, fast or slow, your isolated /marginal, top table and so on, is still the same old door to door high pressure guff.

Slim Jim

Ah well, at least we can see that big business as well as the political class are very keen on the EU, and will do their damndest to remain in it. The rest of us are mere bystanders, and our opinions are irrelevant. Did he mention the enormous and growing democratic deficit? As for 'simplistic binary choice' - how about 'Out or In'?

Pot Head

According to Oliver Kamm, who has really looked into this over at The Times - you can knock at least 2.25 per cent permanently of our GDP of we leave the EU

Not a price worth paying, just so a few old right wing hacks and saloon bar bore blog commentators can give the finger to Johnny Frog.

se1man

What's a fax machine?

Dennis Churchill

Contrast it with Roger Bootle’s view in the Business section of today’s Telegraph.
Mr. Bootle points out, among otherthings, that even if the EU accounted for 50% of our exports 80% of our economy is not involved yet still has to bear the costs of the EU’s regulations.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/8964332/If-the-euro-is-saved-then-Britain-should-quit-the-EU-and-say-good-riddance.html
He points out a number of other issues and is well worth reading:
I like his “top table syndrome” as well as the way he rubbishes the supposed advantages both of market size and geographic proximity.

dorothy wilson

Am I imagining things or are the Germans just beginning to realise what the cost to the EU would be if the UK left?

Isn't it time to ram that home. If the Germans and the other members of the UK want us to stay they have to be somewhat more accomodating towards our views. After all, they would have just as much - if not more - to lose than we would have were we to exit.

And as Lsbour's Graham Stringer pointed out in the debate on the recent summit, if previous PMs had had the courage to exercise our veto the EU wouldn't be in the mess it is now.

FF

I don't have access Mr Rudd's article, so I won't comment on that. Nevertheless, I think that a Norwegian arrangement for the UK is far more realistic than a Swiss one. That's because the EEA is an off the shelf deal that Britain has already signed up to: it can exit the EU but retain the EEA agreement. Swiss style bilaterals would require years to negotiate, during which time Britain's status would remain in limbo, and it's quite likely the deal eventually tendered wouldn't be to the UK government's liking.

Axstane

I had never heard of this Roland Rat but how come that almost any time that something hits the news there arises a full-fledged society or pressure group made especially for that one purpose?

The only disavantage to leaving the EU seems to be in British citizens who are living or working there including those who have retired to warmer climes.

Cynic

Oh, Roland Rudd - I thought it was the Aussie bloke and wondered why he was concerned with our EU membership. The Aussies are well off out of it.

John Findlater

I have been to and worked in Norway many times on ther offshore oil rigs. One thing that stands out for me is the independence and togtherness of the people. Yes they had a referendum and, like the traitorous media, politicians and establishment we in the UK had, encouraging us to vote yes in the 1975 UK referendum, the voters in Norway said a big NO.

Whether we are more wealthy in or out of Europe, although I think we would be better off out, is neither here or there. Its about democracy and "No Taxation without Representation". That is why countries like the USA, India, South Africa etc fought for independance and why our fathers, grandfathers etc fought and died in 2 world wars.
Freedom and independance and the ability to be able to vote for politicians who truly represent us. Not ones who shrug their shoulders and say "nothing to do with me guv" when, for the past 30 years, the EU is handing down laws and rules that nobody in the UK voted for.
We need a referendum,, in or out,,soon and in my country Scotland, Salmond needs to realise that independance means true independance. Being out of the UK but still in the EU is like leaving your parents and going to live with your grandparents.

RKing

The fact that we had to negotiate how our fishermen could fish in OUR fishing waters says it all to me.

Do we really need them???

Dennis Churchill

dorothy wilson
December 19th, 2011 5:05pm
It would almost certainly cost Germany more than it would cost us if we leave the EU.
First we are the second biggest net contributor so who would pick up the shortfall? Second we run a trade deficit with Germany and the rest of the EU so they would not wish to see any slowdown in trade. Third without the regulations that our businesses now strain under we would be much more competitive in the wider world where they also trade.
FF
December 19th, 2011 5:31pm
Neither the Swiss nor Norwegian models apply as we are net importers of EU goods unlike either of these countries. Reversion to WTO tariffs of 3% (?) would endanger them more than us so we are more likely to enjoy the conditions the USA has with it. I think our trade balance of about £34 billion is about a third of the USA’s balance. So we are a very important market.

Yow Min Lye

Apoligies - I'll start again now my PC has stopped posted comments before I've finished typing them.

*****

As I was about to say, Rudd is comparing apples with pears. Norway is a small country of five million souls that, whilst wealthy, is hardly in the premier league of international economies. Hence the EU can throw it the odd sop and otherwise ignore it.

Britain, however, is a nation of sixty million people, a significant market for EU goods (with whom it runs a sizeable trade surplus), is the fourth largest economy on Earth, is a leading member of NATO, and is a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Woe betide the trading bloc that thinks it can conveniently ignore us.

Yow Min Lye

Incidentally, given that neither Coffee House's "People, your government has returned to you" post nor the Coffee House Wall are accepting comments, can I pay my tribute to the late Czech president, Vaclav Havel, here...

*****

"(My faults are) my courtesy, my extravagant politeness, my timidity, my tendency to embarrass easily, my frequently inappropriate thoughtfulness, my respect for those in authority and my apprehensiveness in dealing with them... In a way, all these qualities derive from my instinctive lack of self-confidence and my continuing uncertainty as to whether I am accepted by those around me.”

So said Vaclav Havel of himself in his quasi-autobiographical work, "Disturbing The Peace". Indeed, his greatest strengths were always, ironically, his humility and his consciousness of his own fallibility - and which in turn drove Havel's crucial third great strength: his magnanimity and Christ-like willingness to forgive his enemies.

How tragic it is that in most men who are entrusted with the fate of nations these superlative qualities are often so conspicuous by their absence.

*****

Sorry for the digression, but this giant of a man deserved the fulsome applause of everyone who values liberty and justice.

Pat

Anyone at all must follow EU regulations whilst trading with the EU. Anyone at all must follow US regulations whilst trading with the US, Anyone at all must follow UK regulations whilst trading with(in) the UK.
As members of the EU everyone must follow EU regulations even when not trading with the EU- and the vast majority of British trade is either internal, or with a non EU country.
Therefore all of our trade is restrained by regulations we don't want (or they would become UK regulations) and that the customers don't want. Yes I am aware that a large number of nominally UK regulations are actually EU regulations dressed up as UK ones- that would need to be addressed.
Complying with regulations costs money- and we haven't any to waste.
I cannot imagine the French or the Germans refusing to sell us stuff- they are fully aware that they need the money. And if they refuse to purchase from us when we offer best value for money, they hurt themselves far more than they hurt us.
We should leave, soon. It would almost be worth paying the subs to get rid of their regulations- though I would suggest we don't

James

Does Rudd mention these numbers in his article?

Norwegian GDP per head is $84,000

Swiss GDP per head is $76,000

UK GDP per head is $40,000

Maybe better off out than in?

Tom Pride

Yow Min Lye
December 19th, 2011 7:06pm

I read Vaclav Havel speech on that post "People, your government has returned to you" (I was supposed to go shopping today for family presents but feeling below par, ducked out.) What jumped out at me was:

“The worst thing is that we live in a contaminated moral environment. We fell morally ill because we became used to saying something different from what we thought. We learned not to believe in anything, to ignore one another, to care only about ourselves.”

Is this moral contamination happening to us as the leftist/statists enforce their PC censorship, forcing us to refrain from saying what we actually think?

J Wright

I am glad you took note of my suggestion of more articles by Mats Persson This is a breath of fresh air, who here has heard of<>?.There is an appalling ignorance in this country about Europe. How many CHers ever read a European paper to see what the enemy is thinking.?? How many can??For the last 30years the press/media have totally failed to educate us in these matters.Unless this is put right then the sooner we are out the better.I*t is not surprising theEU pols think they can crap all over us when the Kirkcaldy Genius Sul;ked and totally ignored Europe.

J Wright

Entirely agree with Yow Min Lye comments about Vaclav Havel. Perhaps next years Nobel Peace
Prize!!But should we not have had a special Obituary to which we could all have added our twopenneth.

Boudicca

Hey - remember US. The British people. When does what WE want get taken notice of?

Who on earth is this Rudd that everyone takes so much notice of? Is he an elected representative? NO. He's just a lobbyist with an agenda to promote on behalf of his paymasters.

Membership of the EU has been disasterous for the UK. There is no evidence that it will be anything but disasterous.

We need some politicians with a bit of faith in the UK as opposed to the cowardly self-seeking bunch currently occupying Westminster (or most of them, anyway). take

philip riley

Remind me again, three reasons what we have got from Europe, that we couldn't have done for ourselves.

idle

Rudd is a self-serving spiv.

I have it on good authority that after buying a £6m house on the Somerset/Dorset border very recently, he distributed a letter to his neighbours in the village saying that it would take a while for his family to settle in and that in the meantime he would appreciate it if people would respect his privacy.

What monstrous pompousness. What a king-sized prat.

Liz Brown

Does Rudd ( an incredibly stupid man, in cahoots with Cleggie) receive funding from Brussels? We should be told

fergus pickering

James, Norway and Switzerland are outside the EU BECAUSE they are rich. They are not good examples. The case for coming out of Europe is based solidly on the will of the people. We don't want it. We might be wrong but we don't want it. So democracy should ensure that we don't get it. The EU, being a German construct, is not very keen on democracy.

Minnie Ovens

Will someone, for heaven's sake, in our pro-EC business circles come up with some facts on the EC being advantageous to us.
So far it is all sound a fury and zippo anything else.
If their list comes to one tenth the list of negative factors I would be surprised

Mr L

As to Rudd. the word quisling comes to mind. Who ever thought the other Europeans were our friends?? (Well, E Heath, perhaps: 'nuff said.)

Richard of Moscow

Pot Head
December 19th, 2011 4:29pm

"According to Oliver Kamm, who has really looked into this over at The Times - you can knock at least 2.25 per cent permanently of our GDP of we leave the EU"

Then Oliver Kamm is full of it.

As for your silly jibe about right wingers, well, every left-winger is anti-EU (if they're not, then they cannot be left-wing)

Rhoda Klapp

RoM, the 2.25% is probably composed entirely of the amount of time and money spent on enforcing and goldplating EU regulations. Remember, the EU does not send round inspectors of its own, what you see are the jobsworths and busybodies from regulatory bodies or the council who are oh-so-enthusiastic in making sure you stick to EU rules, while never telling you the source of them. All that activity counts as GDP. If it were lost, no-one would be worse off except those involved in regulation. At the same time as we lost the 2.25%, our actual GDP would (or ought to) be rising to a far bigger number.

EDWARD R

There is little point in leaving the Brussel's Soviet unless the process is accompanied by a root-and-branch reform of the way we run this country. Getting rid of needless regulation; simplifying the tax structure and removing overpaid jobsworths to name three brakes on progress spring to mind as a good start. But is there will to do this; and will we not end up with a sort of Brussels lite with all the disadvantages and no convenient Aunt Sally to blame? And I can't sat that I see any latter day Savonarola on the horizon...............

David Barneby

From what I hear , I would not like Britain to assume without question the Norwegian association with the EU .
Britain needs to make a clean and total brake with the EU .
Any new relationship with the EU should be minimal and 100% on British terms , no assumption of EU laws simply a free trade agreement , bearing in mind the Britain imports more than she exports .