We can't ignore the persecution of Christians in the Middle East

strapworld

Gosh, the quiet man on the matter of Neather, who revealed that the Labour Government had opened the door to untold thousands, possible millions of Islamists. Changing the face of this country forever.

We have now an enemy within created by our own political classes.

Christianity in this country is a joke. Treated as such by most of these poor 'stand up' comedians. Insulted by the left and that includes the man responsible for upholding Christian values, the Very RED Archbishop of Canterbury. Goodness knows that man is a disgrace and should be booted out as soon as possible. We need a real Christian, one who will fight to get Christianity the respect it deserves in this country and restores church going as the norm and not the exception it is today.

But, whilst Mr Fraser points out the major problems in the many countries with which we do trade and who abuse our traditions. I fear the people of this country are sick to death of wars and our armed forces being sent out fighting these unwinnable fights.

It is time for a real debate on our future strategy in the world. We are a trading nation and we need to relearn the lost expertise in engineering, ship building and the rest. But on the situation regarding arms and fighting. We should draw the line and seriously consider becoming a neutral country. Abandoning the nuclear bomb and all its expensive add ons. The army should be used just to protect our island. But we should state unequivacally that this country will never join any other country in any future conflict.

Sorry Mr Nelson but you are sounding like an American Hawk with this article. The only way to change these countries is by force and we should have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Paul Gargaro

Thank you for highlighting this important issue. It is too often overlooked. At this time of year we need to express solidarity with - and give real, effective support to - our Christian brothers and sisters persecuted in their own homelands.

Scott

funny, I don't recall seeing any of this news on the BBC! Is it me or do they deliberately not tell us this news?

Sean Haffey

Very well written.

Holdsworth

Perhaps "Hitch" would have approved of the violent suppression of Christianity, albeit probably not by another group of believers:

“One of Lenin’s great achievements … is to create a secular Russia. The power of the Russian Orthodox Church, which was an absolute warren of backwardness of evil and superstition, is probably never going to recover from what he did to it.” -- Christopher Hitchens

whatawaste

Iran tolerates Christians and Jews practising their faith as long as they do not do so overtly. But should a Muslim convert to Christianity say, then all hell breaks loose. That said sporadic attacks against Christians and Jews or their places of worship do occur.

On an unrelated topic I am reading an excellent account of the 9/11 atrocity relating events before and after. it is called "The Eleventh Day" written by Anthony Summers (of BBC Panaroma fame) and his wife Robbyn Swan. What is startling is what the US authorities knew pre 9/11 and did nothing about it. And post 9/11 when Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeldt clamoured for Bin ladin's hide, and yet at Tora Bora where Bin Ladin was cornered Delta force were stood down and General Franks who commanded the operation was told by Bush that the priority now was war on Iraq.

If Bush had been US President today would Bin Ladin have ben killed earlier this year or not? Very hard to call...

Kevin

"you can certainly argue that if Britain piled in behind the Christians it would only add to the idea of them being a Western-backed foreign contagion"

One could make that argument, if one also believes that similar caution was appropriate in relation to the Jews in Nazi Germany.

On the other hand, the whole world knows that it is British foreign policy to attack regimes in defence of "democrats". Why not in defence of Copts or Assyrian Christians? Are they not in the same danger as the citizens of Benghazi?

Tom Gallagher

Timely post, especially given the frightful predicament faced by the Christian minorities in Syria as it topples into a civil-war eventually likely to be won by the (hitherto marginalised) Sunni majority.

Just one anecdote that illustrates the strange Foreign office attitude to religious pluralism in the Blair-Brown era.
Several years ago,my former higher educational establishment found itself hosting up-and-coming professionals mainly from the Third World in countries where Britain hoped to boost its profile. The Foreign Office had helped to select the contingent who were mixed in terms of gender, religion, political outlook etc.
They visited a range of bodies across Britain in order to see how the political system managed conflict. Several recounted that their visit to the Foreign Office left them with the impression of a disorientated body pandering to various religious causes. Officials asked the contingent if they would like to pray while in the Foreign Office and they were non-plussed when those that expressed this desire turned out to be Christians from East Asia and sub-Saharan Africa and NOT the Muslims (who were actually quite secular in their outlook). It turned out that the prayer arrangements in the FCO were largely geared for visiting Muslims and the junior Sir Humphreys were rather at a loss to know what to do with these pious Christians whose religious needs were quickly forgotten by them.
At least not long after William Hague took over ,the scheme was swiftly discontinued, one which revealed the chaotic and heavily multicultural void at the heart of the Foreign office first under Jack Straw and the supposed wunderkind David Miliband

Occasional Ostrich

Scott 23rd, 11:55am

Now you know what an editor does, he edits!

Matthew Blott

@ Holdsworth

Presumably you put that up to have a dig at Christopher Hitchens. You do not have to be an advocate of Soviet communism to see that pre-revolution Russia was a very backward place - run by a zsar who thought he was God's representative on earth, backed by the church, who was married to someone under the spell of a an illiterate alcoholic peasant. What exactly is it that Hitchens says that you disagree with?

victor jara 67

Not the same Johnathan Sachs (Great Humanitarian ) who endorsed the Cast Lead Massacre and the use of white phosphorus on a hospital.
Maybe Arabs and Muslims need no lessons on brutality and savagery from supporters of liberal Interventions responsible for the Fallujah Massacres and many more from Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Get our own house in order before preaching morality to the "barbarians"

David Lindsay

You'll be opposing the Iraq treatment for Syria, her capital the seat of three of the five Patriarchs of Antioch?

And you'll be supporting full statehood for the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land, the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Greek-Melkite-Catholic Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Ethiopian Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Maronite Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem, the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem and the Middle East, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land, the Syrian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem, and the Armenian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem?

Yes?

john gerard

Whatawaste
"Iran tolerates Christians and Jews practising their faith as long as they do not doso overtly."

Oh, that makes it alright then. They're tolerated, as long as it's hidden away. Ridiculous comment. Maybe we should get down on our knees and thank the Iranians for tolerating Christians and Jews, while Muslims can do what they like in Europe?

The persecution of Christians is just going to get worse as the so-called 'arab spring' leads to Sharia states - it's nailed on, and anyone who doesn't see it is willfully blind.

Joseph Williams

Excellent post Mr Nelson. Suprisingly this issue is overlooked by our government and even the BBC. Shocking. What is even more shocking and i find slightly comical is the audacity for Mr Cameron to pressure nations within the commonwealth such as Nigeria to sort out laws on homosexuality but then make no reference to more prevalent forms of discrimination within these countries, most notably religious persecution.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

The ignorance of the British Foreign Office in matters relating to the Middle East is both due to pure ignorance and deliberate blindness. This blindness has its purpose in literally bending over backwards to accomodate Islam. It is politically expedient to continually winge at the plight of the 'poor Palestinians' whilst ignoring the fate of the Christians, who are the descendants of some of the earliest Christians in the world. For years, under Assad, Israel was under the threat of attack from the Golan Heights, and only when this area was restored to Israel in the Six Day War was a certain security felt. Assad a cruel and demonic dictator was never condemned in the manner to which Israel was, and now we see his son continuing on the same path. But, seriously, can we believe Al Qaeda are responsible for the latest outrages? Damascus is the site of diabolical propaganda, and as usual the Foreign Office will turn a blind eye.

fergus pickering

I knew Hitch at university. He was a very silly student. He matured into a very silly man. The remark about Lenin is typical. And wrong as it turned out

Tiberius

You've got to be more practical, strappy.

Pi$$ off a Christian and nothing happens to you because, er, he's a Christian. Pi$$ of an Islamist and he's likely to leave his calling card sticking out of your chest with a "have a nice day" note attached to it.

Mudplugger

Billy Hague may well be fixing the Foreign Office but he should remember the last Foreign Secretary with the integrity to resign for failure, Peter Carrington, who stood down when the Falklands invasion happened.
Let's hope Hague doesn't face that dilemma, because we can't be sure he'd show the same degree of honour.

Peter From Maidstone

Matthew Blott, you seem entirely ignorant of the important and saintly Orthodox Christians of Russia before the revolution, many of whom are read in English today with great benefit. You seem to be excusing the mass murders of Lenin just because you think the Empress was under the spell of a charlatan.

Have you read anything by St Theophan the Recluse? Do you know Unseen Warfare? Have you enjoyed The Way of the Pilgrim? I am not a Russian Orthodox but these are all regular repeat volumes on my reading list.

victor jara 67

@ Mudplugger. I thought Robin Cook had some integrity and principle. However the messianic Blair removed him at the request of the US neo-cons as they did not like what they heard from him. The poodle Straw was far more accomodating and easier to train.

porkbelly

We are always being told that the vast majority of Muslims deplore the excesses of the Salafists, al Qaeda and so on, but where is the evidence for that? Where are the mass demonstrations against religious intolerance? Have you forgotten who swept the recent Egyptian elections? This is not some "mutant" strain that has somehow connived its way to influence and power Bolshevik-style - it is rather the spearhead of broadly-held popular sentiment, the expression of the religious militancy that is at the very heart of Islam and which is expressed openly in the Koran. To pretend otherwise is to exist in a fantasy world. The real challenge is not to the unfortunate Christians in the Middle East (they are doomed), but to our own civilization - however uncomfortable that makes the appeasers, apologists and cringers of the Foreign Office (or even this site).

whatawaste

John Gerard

The point is that Iran is not part of the Arab Spring but its President has repeatedly called for the annihilation of the state of Israel. With that line of thinking it is even more surprising that non muslim religions are tolerated. this merely reinforcing fraser's point, that the problem is solely concerned in areas where the Arab Spring has taken place.

Herbert Thornton

This is of course a far too simplistic way to approach an existential problem, but nonetheless it would be good sense to invite Christians living in the Middle East to come to Britain (and Europe) - and to ensure that Muslims in Britain (and Europe) leave and go to live in the Islamic world.

Failing to do this, it seems to me, can only ensure that Britain (and Europe) will continue on their present descent towards the very same situation that Fraser laments in the Middle East. Indeed 'descent' may already be too weak a word to describe it - it is becoming a plunge.

Europe and Britain seem to be obsessed at present with their debts and with fate of the Euro, but those are not an existential problem.

The problems of the Euro and debt are no doubt serious and immediate, but in the long run, it is suicidal to imagine that they will ever have anything like the effect that a British and European transformation into a new Middle East will have.

Skibbereen Eagle

I'm not sure I find Hitchens an attractive individual and I disagree with a number of his views, but you had to admire his power of analysis and he expressed himself fearlessly.

Unlike most of the media (craven souls), he participated in open debate about Islam. As Finkelstein wrote in last Wednesday's The Times - "He saw with great clarity that Islamism was a totalitarian doctrine and its demands non-negotiable".

Oh, and I don't regard Islam as a religion. It's an ideology. Whatever may be one's criticism of Christianity, it teaches humility and recognises freedom of conscience.

SJH

What a good and important piece by Fraser Nelson; and what an interesting strand of comments below it, apart from the aptly named Blott.

It's a good way to mark the end of Advent, and to turn tomorrow to the beginning of Christmas.

What a pleasure that the Spectator exists; and what satisfaction Coffee House provides.

victor jara 67

@ Whata waste " Has repeatedly called for the destruction of the state of Israel"

Well no. What he actually said was he predicted the "zionist entity" would dissapear from the pages of history ,much like the old Soviet Union". Somewhat different dont you think?

Neo-Cons,war mongers or Israeli first guys often repeat the wipe Israel of the map line much like Iraq and WMD . If we say it often enough they will believe it.

Herbert Thornton

My earlier posting seems to have been rejected so here's another try -

"We can't ignore the persecution of Christians in the Middle East"?

Oh? We not only can, but are doing it. And in consequence, 30 years from now, people in China and Japan will read a somewhat similar headline -

"Can we ignore the persecution of non-Muslims in Europe and Britain?"

graeme scott

god help them all ... whomever he may be. there is a sh$t storm brewing which is mushroom shaped

Tarka the Rotter

Mmmmmmmm well, having weighed up the evidence and keeping as balanced a view as possible, as far as Islam is concerned we are the enemy and yes, this is a clash of civilisations...only our politicians have not yet woken up to smell the coffee...

daniel maris

Well Fraser, you're a bit late to the table, but welcome nonetheless. "The killing has begun" you say...it began a long time ago and has been picking up pace for many years - it's a phenomenon across the Islamic world. But we have always placed our strategic interest in oil above the interests of Christian communities.

Well, really, you can't defend Christian communities without taking on Islam and promoting its enemy, liberal democracy.

David Lindsay

victor jara 67, and he is being proved right.

About 14,000 Jews left Israel annually between 1990 and 2005. Half of Israelis aged between 14 and 18 express the desire to live elsewhere. A huge percentage of Israelis holds, or plans to inquire about obtaining, foreign nationality. The Berlin synagogue has 12,000 members, and there are now perhaps 55,000 Jews in Poland, many of whom are immigrants from Israel. Curzon was right when he bemoaned the Balfour Declaration on the grounds that the “advanced and intellectual” Jews would have no desire to live in the Middle East. They cannot wait to go home.

Desperately, Israel is instead flying in Russians who refuse to eat kosher food and who insist on taking their Israeli Defence Force oaths on the New Testament alone, Russian Nazis, East Africans who have invented a religion based on the Old Testament brought by Christian missionaries, Peruvian Indians, absolutely anyone at all. Even the Pashtun are now classified as a Lost Tribe with a view to airlifting them to Israel in future, since at least they are not Arabs.

Such Jewish births as there still are, are largely and increasingly to ultra-Orthodox who so disdain the Zionist State that they will use physical force against its teenage conscripts of both sexes. Their desire to live in the Land of Israel is manifestly quite separate from any desire to live in the State of Israel, which is presumably why, settled on the West Bank, they do not do so.

David Lindsay

daniel maris, the Holy Land – Latin Catholic and Greek Orthodox, Melkite and Maronite, Syrian and Armenian, Anglican and Lutheran – founded, and continues to give considerable support to, the Popular and Democratic Fronts for the Liberation of Palestine, whatever else one might think of those organisations. In Palestine east of the Jordan, the present Hashemite Kingdom, Christians already enjoy reserved parliamentary representation, and there is also a Christian quota for the Palestinian Authority.

Lebanese Catholics and Orthodox pray for the success of Hezbollah, which is allied to several of their own political parties, and which is instrumental in restoring Beirut’s historic synagogue, just as there is also an ongoing programme of synagogue and Jewish cemetery restoration in Syria, which could hardly be for the benefit of the few or no Jews allegedly still living there or in Lebanon. Such is the Qur’anic proclamation of the Virginal Conception of Jesus, which the Talmud explicitly denies, that the Annunciation is a public holiday in Lebanon because it unites the Christian and Muslim populations. The other side in Lebanon, favoured by Israel and the neoconservatives, is funded by Saudi Arabia, which says all that needs to be said, as does the Saudi backing for those in revolt in Syria.

Do we prefer Syria, with Christian-majority provinces and with Christian festivals as public holidays, and Iran, with reserved parliamentary representation for Armenians and Assyrians? Or do we, like Christopher Hitchens, prefer the leader among the despotic, backward, misogynistic, Jew-hating and anti-Christian regimes that are demanding an American nuclear attack against the Iranian emerging democracy with its high culture, with its more women than men at university, and with its reserved parliamentary representation for Jews?

Adrian Peirson

Unknown to most, there is a thriving Jewish community in Iran, who refuse to leave even though they are offered money to by the Israelis.

NEWSMAN42

Not to be forgotten is the fact that the Grand Mufti entered into a pact with Hitler and provided death squads and concentration camp executioners who performed their duties with enthusiasm. Nothing's changed. Their long term aims remain the same.

daniel maris

David Lindsay -

I don't prefer either. We should have been promoting democracy vigorously in the region for the last 50 years. We haven't been which is why the pro-democracy parties in Egypt are picking up something like 25% rather than 55%.

Of course we are starting from here. I think the best policy remains full support for real democrats in the countries of the region and complete opposition to all totalitarians of whatever stripe. In terms of protecting Christians I think the best thing we can do is make a fuss about their mistreatment and make sure we apply like for like measures. For example, if Christians can't build churches in Saudi Arabia, there is no reason why we should allow the building of mosques in Europe.

ma lo

Please! No pious claptrap from the chief Rab! It makes me bilious.
Let us keep our noses out of other folk's beeswax and save our Christian soldiers form dying in other folks' messes.

Julian F

NEWSMAN42 - a timely reminder, thank you.

Julian F

David Lindsay: "About 14,000 Jews left Israel annually between 1990 and 2005". Pretty small beer for a country built almost entirely on immigration! A casual glance at the figures shows net immigration of Jews to Israel in every year from its creation. It is home to over 40% of the global Jewish population, with the strongly Zionist US playing host to a similar percentage. I don't think your conclusions follow from the figures, properly presented.

Stephen Rothbart

For William Hague to try and protect the Christian minorities in the Arab Middle East would be to go against the political dogma of the world's Press and especially the BBC and channels like MNSBC and CNN who firstly stated that the Muslim Bortherhood would not win the new elections in the Arab Spring - WRONG - and that a new democratic concept was coming to the Arab word which was just aching for equal rights and womens' suffrage - WRONG.

Now that all these so-called "experts" have been proven wrong, they are looking to whitewash the MB as moderates, despite the rabid anti-Semitism self-evident in Arab society, and the massacres of Christian Copts.

Western governments are in the same denial about their grossly mistaken reading of the Arab world's civil and ethnic wars, not just to Jews and Christians, but towards each other, as the Europhiles are in their denial that the Euro is a bust along with the entire European Union project.

So,like those Euro fantasists that will try anything, even if it brings us all down with them, to keep their EU fantasy alive and themselves from admitting their own mistakes, our leaders must also deny their years of misreading what was truly going on in the Middle East.

To admit their mistakes and heaven forbid, their having to admit the Israelis were right to avoid making peace with those racist entities around them, they instead would rather go on with their fantasy that all that is needed for the Muslim world in the Middle East to suddenly become tolerant and peace loving is for Israel to give the Palestinians whatever they want, even if whatever they want is for Israel to disappear.

This is such tosh, but sadly their misinformed strategy to ignore the truth will damage the Christain populations irrevocably.

Even UNESCO, which has just recognized Palestine as a member of UNESCO has just withdrawn their funding of a Palestian magazine that published a peace in support of Adolf Hitler by one of its young and female contributors. Have they not been paying attention to what the Arabs and in particular the Hamas and Fatah leades have been saying about Jews before they had their cosy flag raising ceremony welcoming Palestine to their club?

Edward McLaughlin

daniel maris

"We should have been promoting democracy vigorously in the region for the last 50 years. We haven't been which is why the pro-democracy parties in Egypt are picking up something like 25% rather than 55%."

Quite obviously, there are some things which Arab populations prize more that democracy. They are voting for the movement which they see as being in their best interests.

Seeing as those interests seem to be in eradicating/usurping the Western powers which you berate; it seems the West is on a hiding to nothing. Are we supposed to drag them to the voting booth and show them which box to tick?

Well said Stephen Rothbart.

Augustus

Driven by Islamist ideology - a reprehensible mix of religious triumphalism and political fanaticism - Muslims have become increasingly hostile to Christians in their midst. Over several decades, towns and cities in the Arab-Muslim world, such as Bethlehem, that once had significant Christian populations have seen their numbers decline precipitately. Across the Holy Land and throughout the Middle East, Christians have become an imperilled minority where once there was a vibrant Christian presence. Hence, ironically while there is a Christmas celebration in Ho Chi Minh City (formerly Saigon), it is curtailed in public squares in the West and, even more tragically, Christians are vanishing in numbers across Arab-Muslim lands where Jesus's loving presence is most sorely needed.

David Lindsay

Depends who you mean by "Jews", Julian F. The liberal, secular, Ashkenazi Jews mostly live in America. The, er, others increasingly dominate the Jewish population of Israel. It says a lot for Britain that we unproblematically include both of them.

Julian F

David Lindsay - I tend to use the term "Jew" to refer to someone who follows the Jewish faith, but I understand if you feel it helps to discriminate between different Jewish ethnic groupings. You know, of course, that the Ashkenazim account for some 70% to 80% of the world total (closer to 90% before the Holocaust). I'm not sure you can rightly describe such a large segment of the Jewish population as "liberal" and "secular", whatever you mean by those terms. And, even if such discriminatory labeling is justified, your claim is not correct. Some 3 million of Israel's population can be categorized as Ashkenazim. That's about 57% of the Jewish population of Israel, which is in turn some 5.25 million of the total population of 7 million. The group plays and has played a huge political and cultural role in the development of the nation-state.

I must admit that I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove with your (ahem) interesting use of statistics.

Julian F

As an afterthought. Of course, the father of Zionism - Theodore Herzl - was Ashkenazi.

David Lindsay

Julian F, of course he was. That is what Zionism is: secular Ashkenazi nationalism.

Most Jews in America are Ashkenazi, and most of them are more or less secular, making them the principal force for secularisation in the world today.

But the number of Israeli Jews like that is now in freefall, whereas the Sephardim, the ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazim and the Arabs are all going forth and multiplying at a rate of notts.

David Lindsay

Oh, and you do realise that you negate Zionism entirely by defining Jews as adherents of Judaism? That view of the fiercely anti-Zionist Reform rabbis of old is making a comeback these days. But it remains just that: fiercely anti-Zionist.

victor jara 67

Israel has always needed anti-semitism to justify its existence and to ensure its survival. While the argument for a safe haven for jews was undoubtly neccessary in the first part of th 20th centuary. Now it is less clear Jews can live safely in North America, Europe and Oceana relatively safety.
So with what Ariel Sharon called the demographic time bomb (ie when the Palestinians outnumber the Israeli's between the river and the sea) It is essential that more jews migrate to the "safe haven". So a narrative of a clear and present danger threatning jews globally has to be spun.

The other part of this is that over the last 20 years as Israel has become more brutal and oppresive in crushing resistance by the Palestinians and some of its neighbours so anti-semitism has grown among some zealous but misguided critics of Israel.

So the solution is: To curtail antisemitism glbally and in particular arab anti-semitism, ultimately Israel must end its anti-semitism to the arab palestinians in the form of its cruel oppresive policies.

daniel maris

Victor,

The key to the solution is for the Arabs to give up on their genocidal dream. Once they do, peace will follow in quick order. World opinion will force Israel to abandon the West Bank and East Jerusalem and give the Palestinians their due justice.

daniel maris

Edward McL -

Do you really think that firm support for democrats over the last 50 years would have made no difference? What if we had financially supported the democrats in providing the sort of social support that the MB do? What if we had tried to spread wealth among the people rather than the elites? What if we had vigorously attacked all manifestations of Islamic totalitarianism?

Our policies have brought us to this pass, where the elites are losing control or have already lost control. It wasn't pro-democracy policy that got us here in my view.

What do you suggest we now do? Invade the Middle East?

Stephen Rothbart

Julian F, the point David Lindsay was trying to make was that if most Jews are secular then there is no need for a "Jewish" state. And if the Jewish state therefore is made up of religious bigots or Russian fascists, then there is no cause to defend it, as they are therefore no better than the other religious bigots around it.

In other words, what David Lindsay was trying to make was the case for the delegitimization of Israel.

Considering this article was about whether Hague is doing a good enough job to protect Christians, one may wonder how Israel and Jews got into the discussion, but for the anti-Zionists, no opportunity should be missed for a spot of Israel bashing, and so we see it here.

True I mentioned Israel in my comment, but only in making the point that the Western Leadership, and especially the EU one, will never admit that their determination to find any excuse for their support of dictators and theocracies over the Jewish state could be wrong in any way, as basically the Arabs are just a misunderstood people yearning for a democratic society like we have in the West...or should I say, had in the West.

Therefore the Christians will probably be abandoned for the same principle.

And of course, don't forget, the Arab Muslims have the oil!

daniel maris

From Robert Spencer at Jihad Watch - a great source of accurate information about Islam (let's face it - he was far more accurate about what was happening in the Arab spring than commentators here):

"So this Christmas, may all of us whose conversion, subjugation, or death is envisioned by the adherents of Sharia stand together. Let us stand together as Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, secularists, what have you, and stand up against those who would kill us or subject us to institutionalized discrimination because they find our beliefs offensive."

I fully support that statement, just as I would argue for a broad front against Nazism and Communism. Moreover, Robert Spencer is right to put the emphasis on Sharia law.No one cares if an individual believes Mohammed to be the perfect example for mankind - we might regret it, feel sorry for their children, but we aren't threatened by the belief per se. But we do have to care if Sharia law is being proposed or introduced - whether formally or informally.

Stephen Rothbart

Daniel Maris, what makes you think Israel any longer gives a damn about World opinion? World Opinion has been against Israel and, for that matter, Jewry, for years, and their economy is strong and their people love their country, their women have enough children to keep their demographics positive, which is more than one can say about Europe.

You should be worried about what might happen to your own European nations in 25 years with your negative dmeographics for your endemic populations.

The arrogance of people who are not even Arabs or Jews pronouncing on whether Israel is entitled to stay inside its own borders or its own capital won in a war imposed on them by a hostile enemy, and after which they refused to sign a peace treaty, is astonishing.

Does Israel tell you to quit Gibralter or Falklands?

victor jara 67

@ Stephen Rothbart

You are right Israel particularly under Bibi and the racist Lieberman care little about world opinnion. The have been afforded this luxary due to the almost unequivical backing of a super power who ensures you are the only nuclear power and the strongest militarly in the region and had up until the arab spring bribed local despots (Mubarak) to maintain the cold piece.
None of the above is guaranteed anymore with the decline of the American empire and the discredited policies of the neo-con hawks.

Would you have thought Ron Paul (Bibi and AIPAC nightmare) would be doing so well in the GOP? As America is declining it is looking inwards. While yes the majority of the political elite bow at the AIPAC alter public opinnion even among young jews is cooling on Israel and its oppressive expansionism.

Also there seems to be a Sunni- Shia power struggle going on and you have pissed of your only Islamic ally in Turkey. Sure for now fortress Israel looks solid but longer term who knows. Balances of power shifts and Israel in a state of perpetual conflict and seige mentality will not seem such a safe haven for middle class european or American jews.

daniel maris

Israel doesn't care much about world opinion now, but it would in the (admittedly unlikely but not impossible) event that the Arab world gave up on its genocidal dream of driving the Jews into the sea.

Israel is in a very difficult place now. I wish it well (within its pre-1967 borders)and think we should defend it absolutely as a legally constituted UN Member state. I think the contribution of Israelis to world civilisation is remarkable and to be admired (contrast with the pitiable efforts of the Arab or Islamic world).

HOwever, the idea that Israel would ever be a "safe harbour" for the Jews is manifestly absurd. They are incredibly vulnerable and their nuclear weapons will not protect them in the long run - it will only give the satisfaction of some sort of revenge.

In a scenario where the Arab world has turned its back on militant Islam and made its peace with modernity and proper democracy, then I think Israel would find the whole world more or less telling it to give up on its West Bank claims and to sign up to a proper peace.

Holdsworth

@matthew blot

The point is that Lenin is one of the worst mass-murderers in history. That Hitchens apparently didn't give this appropriate weight when writing of the secularisation of Russia is very disturbing. It suggests a coldness, a statistical approach to human history.

daniel maris

Tonight comes the horrific news of many people killed by Islamic bombs in Nigeria. I am pleased to see that the Muslim Council of Britain has taken time out to condemn these bombings. That is at least a hopeful sign. But there was no mention of condemnation from the British government this evening. Isn't that truly pathetic.

Yaakov Watkins

The UK will continue to ignore the persecution of Christians and Jews by Muslims just like the US is ignoring it.

How do I know? Because it has been going on for many years. The relentless persecution of Christians by Palestinians is ignored by the western press. The confisgation of Jewish owned property throughout the middle east has also been ignored.

I see no reason to believe things will change except for the worse.

Julian F

David Lindsay: "That is what Zionism is: secular Ashkenazi nationalism." No it's not: that is one type of Zionism. You persist in using generalities to support your thesis. There are many types of Zionism - the one to which I adhere links the Jewish global community to Israel through its religious faith. Furthermore, you state that "most" American Jews are "broadly secular". Well, as I understand it, more than 60% of American jews continue to identify themselves through faith rather than ethnicity.

Your argument, such as it is, begs the question. You essentially claim that any Jew who wishes to be part of Israel is a fanatic and those who live elsewhere are "secular" and, somehow, moderate. Therefore, in your essentially circular argument, the majority of Jews living in America are secular, moderate and anti-Zionist (in your narrow definition). But you are far from proving your first principles.

Julian F

And (David Lindsay) what is your problem with Sephardic Jews? Are they somehow less "worthy" than the Ashkenazim?

David Lindsay

Julian F, they have nothing to do with what Zionism was ever supposed to be about: secular and Ashkenazic. But they are now the greater part of the Jews in Israel, the Ashkenazim there are increasingly dominated by the Haredim, and the Arab population is alos growing rapidly.

No wonder that most secular Ashkenazim prefer to live elsewhere, especially in America. Including growing numbers of those who were born in Israel

To return to the original subject of this post, Israel is the only country where the Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister wants to denaturalise the ancient indigenous Christians (as well as the ultra-Orthodox Jews). Any other country with a governing party like that would be treated as a pariah.

s.kurup

western civilisaton has given up its christian roots . christianity was uprooted from its homeland by islam's march just as rome was overwhelmed by christianity.by shutting their eyes to religious cleansing by favoured countries e.g.pakistan and gone over bobaord with multi-culti at home with the inevitable cowardice in taking a stand on local pressures of vote banks they find "the mede is at their gate".the beeb and new york times must be harrumphing.if west forgets to protect christian europe, a likely outcome. one hopes its past sins won't exact that retribution. kurup

Richard of Moscow

Too late. The cowardice of the west, or more accurately, the cowards in charge of NATO, told the world that if you become our friend (Qathafi) you get stabbed in the back (in the backside, in his case); if you are our enemy (Iran) the Great Satan will soil its pants and make you look great, and if you are Islamist butchers, NATO will help you kill Christians in Yugoslavia, and blubber like pansies if you attack New York, Washington, London, Madrid...

Thanks to the greedy cretins who voted for idiots like Blair, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Cameron and others, and the childish and gutless media which played along, the world does not care what these bankrupt (morally and financially) western nations think about anything.

daniel maris
December 25th, 2011 1:11am

"From Robert Spencer at Jihad Watch - a great source of accurate information about Islam (let's face it - he was far more accurate about what was happening in the Arab spring than commentators here)"

-You mean he wasn't one of those slobbering idiots who called it a pro-democracy movement? That puts him in a minority of tens of millions. It was only the western chattering classes who fell for the media line

Julian F

David Lindsay: I think, perhaps, you don't appreciate that Herzl's Zionism was based on his necessarily limited understanding of the Jewish community beyond the Ashkenazim in Europe. That does not render the Zionist views of those other communities less intellectually significant and Zionism as it evolved took into account the distinctions. You may remember that the leading Zionist Ussishkin was elected to the Jewish National Council in 1919 by the votes of Sephardi Jews, as he understood and embraced their concerns about Ashkenazi dominance.

Julian F

On topic, but again in response to David Lindsay. You cannot possibly infer from limited contributions to religious debate in Israel that the country is in any way anti-Christian. What next?Espousal of the blood-libel and accusations that the Jews murdered Christ! Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which the Christian population has grown in the past half-century (from 34,000 in 1948 to 140,000 now). Israel remain an outpost of democracy and tolerance in the region and a threat to Israel would be just as much a threat to the Christian minorities in the region.

Sage

"The situation is more complex than the Muslim vs Christian ‘clash of civilizations’ narrative to which we’re accustomed. The majority of Muslims are appalled at these Christian pogroms."

How tiresome. In reality, of course, the "narrative" to which we are "accustomed" is precisely that the majority of Muslims want nothing more than to live in peace with their non-Muslim neighbors. The author speaks as though Samuel Huntington was considered the most orthodox of political analysts, rather than being the virtual pariah that he is.