Turkish anger, French parochialism, British benefit

Peter From Maidstone

It is utterly shameful that the British Government will not consider passing a similar bill noting the historical fact of the genocide of the Armenian population. To reject such a statement makes the British Government complicit in the Turkish denial of their historical responsibility for this crime.

daniel maris

I think this episode really calls into question something you are rather keen on: the whole human rights ideology. If the Jews are to have their genocide recognised, then why shouldn't the Armenians - or indeed the South Sudanese, or the Algerians or the Namibians, or the Taino...where do you stop exactly?

It seems to me that real liberal democracy is the best bulwark against genocide and oppression, not human rights leglisation, refugee treaties and the rest.

It is a mistake by the French parliament, just as the creation of a "holocaust day" - a yearly embarrassment - was a huge, stupid mistake.

Hexhamgeezer

Is a moderate Islamist the same as a benign fascist?

Herbert Thornton

"Moderate Islamist government"?

What eyewash. There is no such thing. There is a vast difference between "moderate" and "thin end of a wedge".

Turkey is being forced towards the abandonment of secularism and the imposition of a regime resembling that of Iran.

Jez

"The dispute is likely to have one upshot, though: British-Turkish relations will probably improve, as Ankara will look to London for support and cooperation."

Korski the self inflicting Troll.

Mirtha Tidville

Armenian Genocide should of course be beyond doubt by now???..You serious..I doubt many outside your circle have even heard of it until now...

Although it is total politics, your right, now is the time for Cameron to cosy up to the Turks and stick it up the French..sadly I dont think dozy dave has the `nuts` for that..

Hexhamgeezer

You forgot to explain the bit about how the 'British Benefit'

Cynic

"His reaction highlights how irascible Turkey's foreign policy has become under his leadership." It should serve as a warning, too.

Walsingham's Ghost

The fact of the matter is that (depending on your source) between 500,000 and 1.5m Armenian Men, Women and Children were slaughtered by being drowned, burned alive, shot, deliberately force-marched until they died of thirst/exhaustion, gassed and even injected with Typhoid.

If the Turks cannot face this fact, they had better rethink trying to join the EU...

disenfranchised

ankara will not have to seek support and cooperation from london, it will be eagerly given. shouldn't be surprised if they haven't already dreamt up some excuse, probably green-huhned, for giving them a few hundred million or so for their distress. anything to stop money going to needy/deserving british causes.....

Frank Sutton

The idea of historical fact and interpretation being decided by law strikes me as positively Stalinist and totalitarian, whether it's about Turkey and Armenia, Germany and the holocaust or anything else.
Am I the only one to think this?

Austin Barry

“President Sarkozy is facing a tough battle for re-election in 2012, and the bill will ingratiate him with the 400,000-strong Armenian community in France.”

And probably lose him support among France’s 5 million muslims.

The UK dare not offend its 2 million muslims lest they become, well, vibrant.

Noa

Peter From Maidstone 6:57pm

"It is utterly shameful that the British Government will not consider passing a similar bill noting the historical fact of the genocide of the Armenian population..."

No Peter, the day that Parliament legislates what is true or false in history, and makes it a criminal offence to argue otherwise, is the day that marks the final destruction of our birthright; freedom of thought, of speech and conscience.
That birthright is already severely damaged by the iniquitous socialist race, hatred and discrimination laws the aabitratory management of of what is truth or lies by a government ministry, probably through the oxymoronic Equality and Human Rights Commission would see the completion of Orwell's dystopian nightmare.

Daniel Hannan summed up this issue superbly in a recent post
"..I am not competent to pronounce definitively about 1915. Where I do feel competent is in condemning the French decision that, from now on, even to question one side of the argument is a criminal offence. In any free society, the right to say what you believe surely trumps the right not to be offended. This, though, is not even one of those ludicrous ‘hate crime’ issues. What is being proscribed here is intellectual enquiry..."

*ttp://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100125925/france-is-wrong-turkey-is-right/

On the broader issue of what benefit Britain might derive from this Franco-Turkish spat, like Hexhamgeezer, I look forward to an as yet to be published analysis by an informed and objective SME.

anthony.scholefield

If you feel like taking the wings off flies,ask your Conservative MP how many immigrants he estimates his constituency will receive after Turkey joins the EU

Kingstonian

Peter From Maidstone
December 27th, 2011 6:57pm
How, exactly, does anyone, Armenian or otherwise, benefit from any government passing a law to make denial of a particular historical event illegal? Do you seriously suggest that it is shameful of Britain not to pass a similar law?

Where exactly does freedom of speech start and end when politicians decide for us how to interpret history and how we are allowed to speak about it? Should it be illegal in Britain to deny that a massacre occured at Amritsar, for example, as that at least is a stain on Britain's history. What about a law making it illegal to deny that American GIs committed a massacre at My Lai? That had nothing to do with Britain; should we do so to show solidarity with the Vietnamese?

And how far do you want to delve into history? There are plenty of massacres that are well documented all the way back to Roman times - lots of scope there for laws against denials.

Cacey

One of the wests most prominent middle eastern historian Bernard Lewis has said that the Turks did not commit a genocide, oh yes! ....and he was fined 1 franc when he said it in france!!!!

michael

Politicians are in love with ethnic minority communities that can deliver a block vote.
In view of the damage caused by these communities' corresponding over empowerment, it is no more than racism.

John David Barnett

Hooray for France!

Roy Robinson

After all, who today speaks of the destruction of the Armenians ?.
Adolf Hitler August 22nd 1939.

David Lindsay

Islamic expansionism dismembered France as recently as 1962, when she was mutilated by the loss, not of three colonies, but of three départements, integral parts of the French State and nation.

That was the perspective from which, in and through the person of a decorated veteran of the Algerian War, she opposed the greatest catastrophe since 1962 for what was originally Christendom on three continents, covering every inch of the Mediterranean’s shores. For what remained of that, 1962 was the greatest catastrophe since 1948 (itself the greatest since 1923), and 2003 seems set to have been the greatest until a similar intervention in Syria.

And that is the perspective from which France is in dispute with the Islamist Government of Turkey, drawn as it is from the party that created and still influences Ennahda in Tunisia, where you will not be hearing French on the streets for very much longer now. But the Sixth Caliphate still faces France.

Abdel

France should be ashamed. they killed millions in Maghreb and still speaks to justice?. Sarkozy is a hypocrite. He will go and no one will care about him.Let us get justice for the mass killings of Moroccans in Riff using chemical weapons and the killings of 15 % of Algerians in 40s. Time to pay compensation to us for killing our forfathers.

Edward Sutherland

Much as I find French politicians irritating, I have no particular desire to see Britain benefiting over this. Turkey's treatment of its Christian minority is a disgrace. They are not allowed to build churches,to seek converts, their property is confiscated and when priests are murdered, the Turkish state always says it's the work of the criminally insane. I believe the treatment of other minority communities is equally bad. But never a squeak about any of this from our Prime Minister as he continues to laud Turkey and press for its entry to the EU. At least over EU entry we can rely on France, Germany and Austria to do the right thing.

Malfleur

Cacey is correct, and Professor Lewis can be heard giving his reasons at:

http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/Bernard-Lewis-Armenian-Genocide

Enacting statutes which make it an offence to take a position on historical matters is something that the continentals get up to; not very English, I would say.

fergus pickering

I think the Turks should rethink trying to join the EU anyway. But in one way they would be quite at home. The Germans beat them easily in the genocide stakes.

Richard of Moscow

Mirtha Tidville
December 27th, 2011 7:31pm

"Armenian Genocide should of course be beyond doubt by now???..You serious..I doubt many outside your circle have even heard of it until now..."

I'd suggest it's the opposite. Korki's spectacular ignorance of history is no doubt shared by his fellow know-nothings, but is atypical of the general population.

Well-written histories are very popular precisely because most people have a thirst for knowledge, especially if they grew up in the EU and so were denied an education.

Korski's "knowledge" is from Wikipedia - otherwise his post would have shown at least a sign that he understands the meaning, history, and problems asociated with using the term genocide

Frank Sutton

Noah 9.38pm and Kingstonian 9.59pm: Exactly - the disturbing thing about this has nothing to do with Armenia or Turkey (or Germany or the Jews) - it is the idea that the Law can determine historical truth, and that precious few people, here and elsewhere, seem troubled by this.

The Masked Marvel

Daniel Korski,

"Islamist" is by definition not moderate. Please stop sanitizing reality. You're as bad as the BBC here.

Mark

arMenians lied about the events, arMenians killed more than 500.000 Turkish citizens when their strong man in front figthing 5 different batlles, they opened the worst kind with in,only 1,2 million arMenians lives in Turkey than and 1 million was deported, numbers went up every decade or so,just bz arMenians carry a cross doesnt give them the right to any killing, they were killed about 200,000 when they were cought with blooody hands killing Turkish civilians,now they cry faul, there will be no court proceedings will stand the close examination of the events that is why arMenaia never sued Turkey which Turkey said they were ready,just liying about it and west using this for their political adventage will not work, crusaders got their ass kiked by Turks and they cant forget it and crusaders is still at work trying to undermine Turks, sorry it will not work no matter what

daniel maris

Well Edward, I agree with you on that. We need to build our policies in relation to other countries on reality not fantasy.

Turkey does indeed treat minorities in an appalling fashion, as does Pakistan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia as well. Our silence is pathetic and only encourages them.

fergus pickering

What happened to my post, then? Did my connection of the word 'genocide' with the word 'German' keep it out? Is the modern consensus that it wasn't the Germans, just the Nazis who were quite different?

John Moss

I support Turkish entry to the EU as its great weight will make the whole edifice even less likely to stay standing.

john gerard

You write about Islamic themes fairly often Korski, and here, yet again, for the umpteenth time, you demonstrate your ignorance:

"Turkey's moderate Islamist government"

You don't have a clue about Islam, do you?

TrevorsDen

Well we are off to a good start - what a load of absolute tosh from P from M. how on earth can anyone consider Britain complicit in an Armenian massacre by turkey who we were at war with at the time?
Just because we do not pass a bill regularising an historical event.
I suspect he was upset that we said sorry for Black Sunday - where we did have an input.

Maddy1

We can sort all this bad stuff out and even have them for our bedfellows in the EU!!! lol, lol, lol,

Richard of Moscow

The word "genocide" was created by Lemkin as a legal term to describe what nazi Germany did to Poland. The word has been abused so many times since that it should probably be killed off itself.

How about the genocide of Aboriginals in Tasmania, or the genocide of Kosovan Albanians by Serbs? Neither happened, but BS merchants like Korski have nothing but contempt for facts.

Tarka the Rotter

france should be standing up for free speech and unhindered historical enquiry, not to leap on the bansturbastor bandwagon. The past happened - we cannot and should not apologise for what others did in other circumstances long ago, but neither should we seek to brush them under the carpet. Shit happens. All we can do is try not to go down the same dark roads again. As for welcoming Turkey into the EU I think we should think long and hard. Islam is not benign, it is not compatible with our culture and will seek to destroy all we hold dear.

Sean Haffey

There are several posts in this thread that say the truth should not be determined by setting a law.

However, this is not what has happened here. The truth is widely available: from vast numbers of reputable sources it is clear that a massacre of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was undertaken during and after the First World War.

The law making it illegal to deny this does nothing more than make it illegal to lie about this pogrom. Allowing such lies to be spread hides the truth and can in due course allow such atrocities to recur.

Jannie Geldenhuys

History should be written and debated by historians.

It should not be interfered with by legislators.

Otherwise where do you stop? 'Official', legally enforceable versions of history are for totalitarian dictatorships. The facts of the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian genocide speak for themselves. If people want to 'deny' them then let them - at least then we can see those people for what they truly are.

Peter From Maidstone

TrevorsDen, you really have become a troll, haven't you. If we refuse to insist that the Armenian Genocide took place then we ARE complicit in covering it up. But this does seem to be Government policy. David Cameron DOES want Turkey in the EU and DOES want to give a hundred million Muslims the right to move here.

It does not take much to assert that the Armenian Genocide took place. But this Government will not do even the least that should be expected. Therefore it is complicit.

RDC

P from M- your latest post shows how wrong you have this. You now say that it is about saying the genocide was wrong and did happen. Actually, that is fine - and probably right (I am no expert on that period of history). However, that is VERY, very different to your earlier position, where you were supporting making saying "it did not happen" illegal, and thus subject to fines and jail. The one position is totally different from the other, and surely you get that.Criminilising people who don't agree with you about bits of history is a very slippery slope and a terrible idea.

s.kurup

diplomacy apparently is following "suppressio veri". when lies are not challenged one is suporter of the lie. kurup

Jannie Geldenhuys

@kurup

You can challenge a lie without making it illegal to utter the lie.

TomTom

"Turkey's moderate Islamist government"

has arrested most of the senior officers of the Turkish Army and 100 journalists the highest number of jailed journalists in the world with demonstrations by journalists unions protesting on the streets. Reporters Without Borders condemns the Turkish regime.

Korski likes moderate Islamic Fascism clearly

Serguei

Peter From Maidstone wrote:
"It is utterly shameful that the British Government will not consider passing a similar bill noting the historical fact of the genocide of the Armenian population"

British government should not be in the business of banning free speech, however abhorrent the views might be.
UK does not have a law that bans denial of any genocide, including genocide of Jews during Second World War. UK is not France.

M52

Korski still gets paid for this rubbish ?

Peter From Maidstone

Serguei, I did not propose what you disagree with. I said that the Government should state the fact of the Armenian Genocide. In fact it is clear that it is not permissible by law to deny the Genocide of Jews in this country. (Not that I would wish to).

Peter From Maidstone

I said that a bill should be passed noting the fact of the Armenian Genocide..

It is utterly shameful that the British Government will not consider passing a similar bill noting the historical fact of the genocide of the Armenian population.

I did not say anything about banning and prison. Simply that our own Government should make a formal and legal statement that the Armenian Genocide is recognised as a fact.

Vahn Gregory

The Spectator would do well to also write articles highlighting Turkey's own shortcomings in freedom of speech such as its Article 301, which has been used to prosecute historians and journalists who affirm the Armenian Genocide. Many historians an publishers have been imprisoned, fined and threatened for saying there was an Armenian Genocide. Hrant Dink and Armenian Turkish journalist was even killed in broad daylight. The murderer was considered a hero and the police who arrested him posed for pictures with him as a memento. Turkey has also threatened the french, has brough lawsuits again schools in the U.S, such as the schools in Massachusetts which include the Armenian Genocide in the curriculum and has done everything in its power to payoff, bully, threaten governments and institutions all around the world who dare speak of the Armenian Genocide. Not only does Turkey restrict freedom in its own country, but it uses its wealth and strategic importance to restrict freedom to discuss the Armenian Genocide all over the world. The Turkish government even tried to lobby the British Parliament to have the Blue Book retracted by the parliament. the Blue Book was written by James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee in 1916 detailing the Armenian genocide.

Cacey

this was taken from http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com

"It is interesting to note that objective historians like Bernard Lewis are all over the world, but very few have the courage of Bernard Lewis to speak the truth when so many historians are bullied and intimidated by the infamous ANCA (Armenian National Committee of America) and the Armenian American Assembly lobbyists which use hate campaigns, propaganda, and invest a lot of money in scholars, organizations, and politicians to support their crusade of Anti-Turkism. They also organize hundreds of volunteers to protest and flood politician offices to pressure them into following their political agendas."

"If you're a historian, do the research, analyze both sides, go to both Armenian perspective websites as well as Turkish perspective websites, watch all the documentaries from both sides, and I guarantee you the truth will show itself as clear as day that the Ottoman government did not plan out a mass extermination campaign, and only stopped the violence through a relocation order that may have saved hundreds of thousands of Armenian and Turkish lives during World War I."

Maddy1

Even before the Armenians, good job we have forgotten about Gladstone and his one man campaign against the Ottomans. Gladstone did not take this and his ladies of ill repute, lying down. The very real residual memory of Ottoman cruelty and it was taken for granted by the unsentimental Victorians played its role in Serbia. Our modern, germ free technocrats at the EU. erased this memory, as not being particualrly helpful. Well they would wouldn't they!

Frank Sutton

"it is clear that it is not permissible by law to deny the Genocide of Jews in this country."
I find that most unlikely - surely we haven't sunk to the totalitarian depths of proclaiming historical truth on pain of punishment.
What law do you have in mind, PfM?

Herbert Thornton

Peter From Maidstone (Dec 28th,6:00pm)

"... it is clear that it is not permissible by law to deny the Genocide of Jews in this country.

WOW! - That's an ambiguous statement! How can you say it is 'clear'?

Serguei

Peter From Maidstone wrote:
In fact it is clear that it is not permissible by law to deny the Genocide of Jews in this country.

I believe you are wrong. There is no law in the UK that says one can't deny the Genocide of Jews. As we know David Irving was never imprisoned in this country for his denial, but he was arrested when he tried to do the same in Austria.
This is what free speech is all about - if we hate someone's views we still don't stop them from expressing their views.

Peter From Maidstone

There are a variety of acts that I am sure would be used to prosecute anyone who denied the Holocaust.

e.g. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Counterterrorism/DG_183993?CID=CAJ&PLA=url_mon&CRE=reporting_online_terrorism

But also race and religious hate speech laws. The last 13 years have been an extended effort to prevent free speech. Until recently it had worked increasingly well, but now it seems people are no longer afraid to say the truth.

Enlightenment

A few lessons to the mostly ignorant bunch:

1) As the geriatric gang of bigots called the EU is going down the toilet when Turkey is the second fastest developing economy in the World none of the 77 Million Turks could care les about joining the EU any longer

2) The 'alleged Armeian genocide' is an Armenian Cottage Industry as tens of thousands of Turks were murdered by Armenian Militias from behind the defensive lines while the Ottoman Turks were fighting their enemies on all fronts during WW I

3) The Racist Bigot nation of France is a 'has been power' in denial currently utterly incapable of maintaining her population at its present level!

4) Turkey currently the 16th biggest economy in the World shall be in the top ten within the next twenty years as French Bigots further get marginalized in the World as the economic center of gravity continues to move Eastward toward Asia in the direction of China, India, Turkey etc