Cameron's balancing act over Scotland

Rhoda Klapp

I want a vote too, and I want to see a case for union made which transcends the usual Barnett formula vs North Sea oil nonsense.

I am always a little perturbed when the HoC takes constitutional matters to itself, without reference to the people. They never seem to do things properly. They seem to think they can give away anything they have been entrusted with. One day they will find they are wrong.

JohnPage

The Scots elected a government which said it would hold a referendum and they are entitled to do just that. Cameron's initiative is just arrogant meddling. If I were a scot, I would angrily resent it.

JohnW

Cut them loose if that is what they want. I am sick of subsidising them. Let us see who survives better!

Percy

Salmond knows full well that his proud nation of welfare dependent citizens are not so dumb as to actually reject the hand that feeds them.

In any case if this is to be the break up of the Union shouldn't everyone have a say? Or is this another example of the great western selective democracy that seems so popular with our masters at the moment.

Jebediah

JohnPage,

Goodness fancy the PM of the UK wanting some say in whether the UK breaks up. There are issues that affect us all if Scotland becomes independent. It is not just an issue for Scotland it is an issue for Britain. The PM is right it is becoming tiresome, yes or no, in or out. Make teh decision. If you're confident Scotland will vote for independence I don't see what your problem with the PM's idea is.

Wilhelm 1

The referendum is in 2014

You know what this like, talking about what the weather is going to be like in 2 years time, it's an irrelevance.

AlanL

Win-Win

If the scots vote to stay, then Cam can claim to have saved the union

If the scots vote to go, then England will save the Barnett subsidy, and we will never have a Labour govt again

R Lawrence

Rather than this being simply a Cameron-Salmond debate (I know who I would favour) - surely the will of the Scottish people must take precedence? And there is clear support in Scotland for having the devo-max option on the table (in fact, some polls indicate fit is the most popular option. What is clear is that the status quo is overwhelmingly the least popular option, and Cameron should not have the arrogance to try and dictate his own agenda to a country in which he has no mandate whatsoever (as it has been pointed out there are more panda bears than Tory MPs in Scotland).

Arthur

It's difficult to oppose a referendum in Scotland, then demand one regarding the UK's position in the EU.

I hate the idea of Scotland leaving the Union, but only for emotional reasons. It takes two to make a marriage work, but only one to make a divorce. I can't see what either side gets out of the current arrangement, other than we've been doing it for so long, it seems a shame to stop now.

I can't think of any practical reason why the English wouldn't allow Scotland to be independent, if that's what the Scots want. The backlash would mean that the Welsh and Northern Irish would be kicked out of what's left of the Union. They could stay in the EU, and the English would leave. then everybody gets what they asked for, and no-one will be happy.

fergus pickering

Yes, Mr Page, they can hold a referendum on anything they like. But the referendum cannot be binding on the English unless they, the English, decide to make it so.

starfish

What I do not understand is that this whole matter concerns a union between two formerly independent nations

Why does only one side get a say?

Deputy FM was typically evasive on R4 this morning when asked about straight referendum questions

Lonesome Dave

I prefer to think of it as Independence for England. Let the English have a say in this in/out referendum.

Let us be gone with the socialists, North of the Border, as soon as practicable.

PayDirt

If the Scottish people want to leave the UK why force the issue? Personally I’ve been frozen out of Boris’s Greater London LE ZONE, so I no longer do business in Greater London. If the Scots want a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK, so what? we’ll get over it. Just don’t go to Scotland anymore.

Cogito Ergosum

Why is the union between England and Scotland said to be the best thing since sliced porridge, but the union with Europe is a turkey?

Answers on the back of a memory chip.

mongoose

Alex? The cartoonist? Or Salmond? – If so why not "Dave"?

Is he a cuddly, amiable "honest Tam O'Shanter"? Or a ruthless operator who'll Scotch your best laid plans?

Divide and rule is precisely his tactic for unionists. Dave, Ed and Nick had better agree smartly. They all have much to lose.

Holly ......

If Scotland were in a position to give us an IN/OUT referendum on the EU would we take our ball back just because it was Scotland 'telling us' what to do?

The Scottish people either want independence
or they don't, it makes no difference who gives them the referendum.

Of course that would be far too simple for the media, so to keep it stringing along nicely they claim Cameron is 'taking a risk'
or trying to tell the Scottish people what to do.
I hope the Scottish people rise above the political bull and DEMAND that they can decide this once & for all....Whoever gives it to them.
Dragging it out so the politicians can 'gain
some imaginary ground' the media are pushing with sport/patriotism is about all one could expect today.
Give it to them now....I very dare them!

Mudplugger

Interesting that Cameron is insisting on a simple Yes/No referendum question for the Scots.
Let's hope he remembers this when we eventually get our In/Out EU Referendum - no 'repatriation of powers' nonsense to fog the field.

TrevorsDen

JohnPage
The Scots elected a devolved parliament - a parliament that can only operate within the limits given to it by devolution. (whatever those limits are)

In2minds

Meddling in Scottish affairs, does that include giving them money? But then what is meddling, what about Scottish MPs voting on matters only relevant to Britain?

And while on the subject of independence I see Jamaica is keen to go it alone, OK here's a deal, we will keep the Queen and Jamaica can keep all those dangerous criminals now in our prisons.

David L

Scotland's rulers decided to merge with their southern neighbour - in the teeth of considerable popular opposition - as an alternative to national bankruptcy.

Both England and Scotland did well out of the Union. England benefited from the contribution of the Scots - in particular to its expanding colonies - and the Scots prospered economically.

With the end of Empire, and the decline of our national economy, it is sad but not surprising that many Scots want to go their own way. Such is democracy. The United Kingdom survived the loss of most of Ireland, and will survive if (when) Scotland finally decides to go its own way.

Shan't miss those Scottish Labour MPs, though.

Nickle

There is the Weston Super Mare question. It is the same as the West Lothian question.

The Scots have carried on voting on English matters. They have refused to give up that voting right.

So Cameron should do likewise. Weston Super Mare should get to vote in the referenda.

After all, its democracy.

Salmond and the Scots have been meddling in English affairs for too long.

I want rid of them. They can take the oil. However, they get to take a Barnet formula share of the debt.

The rest of the UK gets to keep things like Seniorage on the pound. We will see if the Scots want to join the Euro as it fails.

Sheuamis

I would like to see this issue decided by those who know what they're talking about. Whining about subsidies and expecting Scottish independence to provide perpetual Conservative governments advertises a distinct lack of knowledge and I would prefer those who revel in such ignorance play no part in the decision. I do think English taxpayers should have some say however, as dividing the union will come at a cost and, if it is supported, it is only fair that the divorce be as amicable as possible. I doubt it will be, thanks to Alex Salmond's involvement.

There is no logic in Salmond's argument, as he claims he doesn't want to be part of a union with a government that pays little heed to Scottish interests, yet wishes to be part of the EU. His energy policy is misguided, his party's education and legal policies are a shambles, yet he's still leant a credibility his party's performance simply doesn't support. He is the one proposing change and he should be challenged to explain why it is a change for improvement. He is a considerable distance from doing so.

Simon

Who gets a vote, just people on the electoral roll of scottish constituencies, scots in general whether they are resident in Scotland or elsewhere (Portugal for example)?

starfish

"Why is the union between England and Scotland said to be the best thing since sliced porridge, but the union with Europe is a turkey?

Answers on the back of a memory chip."

Beacause they are entirely different?

Russell

Let Scotland have a referendum whenever the Scottish parliament wants one.

Personally I would prefer the whole of the UK to participate and an overwhelming vote for Independence be the result.

I would willingly offer my services either digging a trench or building a wall between England and Scotland, and getting the many Scottish broadcasters and politicians returned to their homeland.

A nastier, bitter, loudmouthed, violent race of people you couldn't meet anywhere in the world.

Andrew Taylor

I once had a conversation with a friend who is a Scottish Nationalist. He was for independence. I said that it was madness and almost certainly doomed to failure; then the Scots would blame the English for their troubles. He agreed but said that they should have the right to try. This is the lunatics running the asylum!
The question is as important for the English as it is for the Scottish. Salmond is playing stupid political games and playing to the tribalism which seems endemic in Scotland.
It is right that the parliament in London (for many years now, very strongly influenced on English only matters by Scottish MPs) has a large say on how a referendum is run, how the question is coached and when the vote will take place. For the record, my mother is Scottish (from the Outer Hebrides) and my father is English, so I think I have a right to comment.
We all gain from being in the Union and we will all be worse off without it, in my view. Surely it is simple:

Do you wish to remain part of the United Kingdom or do you wish to leave the United Kingdom?

And the sooner it is asked, the quicker we can get on with life

Mirtha Tidville

Bit of panic setting in on the part of the Nats up north...They want to have a referendum but at a time of THEIR choosing, when they are most likely to win.Cameron forcing the issue is not part of their plan. Of course if they lost such a plebiscite then what would be the purpose of their party and its continuing existance...

I dont think Salmond expected this to happen...tee hee

Nicholas

" . . . and Cameron should not have the arrogance to try and dictate his own agenda to a country in which he has no mandate whatsoever (as it has been pointed out there are more panda bears than Tory MPs in Scotland)."

Which is precisely the effect of Scots MP's in a British parliament voting on English affairs. At least the Scots have their own assembly. England is governed (and governed very badly) by a British parliament. Since New Labour opened the devolution can of worms the whole arrangement is a nightmare and there is no going back.

The moment devolution was conceded there was effectively no Union and England was acknowledged as a coloniser of Scotland rather than as an equal partner. Britain has a rotten track record with these kinds of arrangements from India to Palestine to Northern Ireland and you can bet this one will be a mess too.

New Labour wrecked Britain through their twin evils of devolution and mass immigration (look at the schools thread). Probably the most destructive force in British history for a thousand years.

dercavalier

The fish has been hooked! Dave has walked into the trap. I always knew his intellect was of a low order. The Scottish Government will now spend the next two years knocking the Coalition, going to law, and finally be dragged screaming (with joy) into a referendum forced on them by Westminster in about 2013/14. Meanwhile, as support for Independence steadily increases Dave boy and the rest will start to get cold feet and offer concession after concession to try and keep Scotland in the Union. Result. FFA is allowed on the ballot as an option. And Salmond and Scotland? Laughing all the way to bank the riches of oil and other manufacturing industry spread around only 5m people.
To some whinging English on here go and read your own media FFS. Last week it was noted that Scotland is the the third most prosperous area in the UK after London and the SE WITHOUT oil.
And Hamish either go and have elocution lessons to properly speak RP or go back to a good Scots' accent like Brown,Salmond, Darling, et al. At the moment you sound like an alien.

clinchy

To R. Lawrence
I am English. If the Scots want to leave, that's a matter for them (as long as they pay the consequent costs of break-up).
Devo max is a whole different matter. If that is what the Scots want, everyone in the UK should have a vote because it would be an attempt to dramatically change the nature of the union. In my opinion it would result in England bearing an even more unfair burden. And it simply would not work. You would effectively have two different governments arguing over whether to commit armed forces. For me it's a straightforward in or out.

Heartless Curmudgeon

The most important question is . . . has the Speccy picture editor been given a new sheaf of snaps of the H2B - all against a black background?

Is there a subtle hidden message there?

I think we should be told.

PS Scotishland? More distracting PR piffle!

Just goad the H2B into getting us OUT of the EUSSR, - all else follows.

Pettros

If Scotland walk away they will instantly become richer as a country as they leave their portion of the debt in Westminster.
Seems like an easy decision for them

Jeremy

We need Scotland and Scotland needs us.

We are bound together by ties of family, friendship, history and culture - not the least of these ties being the Crown itself.

Moreover, in this post-Imperial age, the union of Scotland and England has become more important, not less. Together, we have more standing, clout and status in the world than we would have seperately.

We live in testing times - and times that are likely to become more, and not less, testing. The successful response to these times must involve unity, and not division. And I am thinking in particular of the unity of Scotland and England.

Trapped

@ Nickle

It won't work like that. If Scotland get independence, we won't need to contribute according to the Barnett formula, but we won't get rid of the debts such as RBS that have been socialised into the UK debt pile, nor will we be able to dump our debt on Scotland. Independence would, very likely, come out very advantageous for the Scots as long as Salmond holds his nerve. (Considering Cameron lacks an actual spine, this shouldn't be hard).

RJBH

England should look to the positive side of Scottish independence...lack of Scottish canon fodder should reduce the chances of england waging illegal wars..

Lack of Scottish Labour MPs would help ensure England is a blissful Tory haven

Lack of Scottish bankers will surely help the "City"

Lack of Scottish Oil .. well maybe we wont count that.

Lack of old highland grannies ..or at least the ones that are left are being cared for.

Lack of Scottish students at English universities.. will ensure there is plenty room for those English students who can afford it.

Lack of down to earth Scottish types will ensure that England reinforces a proper class structure.

Bob Dixon

The referendum must be for all voters in the UK not just Scotland

URAllPigs

Can those of us in the North please have a referendum to join Scotland? Perhaps the rump of what is left could be renamed Little England? Many of you would feel at home in such a place.

Austin Barry

The Scots will never vote for independence, they need the English bawbees.

As Robbie Burns wrote in 1791:

“The English steel we could disdain
Secure in valour’s station
But English gold has been our bane
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.”

Also, the total economic collapse of their Irish brother Celts' nation presents a horrible example of what independence conflated with anti-English angst and a drinking problem could mean.

Pete

What is wrong with Devo Max with Scots MP's Westminster votes suitably limited? Seems like win win to me.

JR Bearbull

Whether the Scottish want independence or not is a matter for them, and I certainly find the prospect of an independent Scotland more attractive than a devolved nation constantly compaining how their problems originate in London. What I find unacceptable, as an Englishman, is that the Scots should be allowed to vote for DevoMax. That to my mind is a matter for the whole country, not just Scotland, as it raises the prospect of giving significant advantages to Scotland at the expense of the rest of the UK (primarily, England). I therefore support Cameron's move to force the Scots into a straight yes / no vote although I suspect for rather different reasons.

dercavalier

Austin Barry.
Whe I see the drunks (male and female)lying in the gutters in English town centres every weekend compounded by riotous behaviour it seems to me the English have more problems with drink than the Scots. And from the posts which appear on every English media site it appears the English are more anxious about Scotland than vice versa.

Minnie Ovens

Each time Cameron attempts to argue with Salmond and nit-picks it will push the Scottish people towards separation.
It's not because they necessarily want it, after all the benefits are great and there are probably far more people of Scottish ancestry in England than in Scotland, it's because, like most English people, Cameron is like a red rag to a bull, indecisive, not competent with little common sense, egotistical and a rather nasty bully.
If Cameron, just for once, would shut up and let Salmond get on with it, I think the Scottish would come to their senses.

salieri

"It takes two to make a marriage work, but only one to make a divorce."

Actually, no. One side can walk out of a marriage but there are always two parties to a divorce, especially if it is to meant be amicable. Scotland has a right to hold whatever referendum it wants, but it cannot bind the rest of the Union unless we agree.

I strongly suspect that the result of a referendum on Scottish independence would be much closer-run if held in England, Wales and Northern Ireland than in Scotland itself. The Scots might like to ask themselves why.

JohnPage

If the Scots voted to leave, it would be imperialist arrogance to try to stop them. Turn it round. If England voted to leave the UK, would you say we needed permission from the other nations?

drayner

The Scots won't vote for independence anyway. The real scuffle is going to be about trying to get devo max onto the referendum form as that is definitely Salmonds preference. That won't please fundamentalist nats of course, but then nothing much does anyway.

You'd actually think with all the pish and wind eminating from the cyber nats that independence is actually a massive topic of conversation amongst normal people up here. It's not.

Malfleur

It's a United Kingdom, the last time I looked. No parts; no separate referenda.

In particular, no French armies in Scotland on the English border, thank you very much and do we really want to fight the Battle of Bauge again?

Tarka the Rotter

"If the Scots voted to leave, it would be imperialist arrogance to try to stop them. Turn it round. If England voted to leave the UK, would you say we needed permission from the other nations?" What? Give the English a chance to vote on their own future? You're avin a laff, mate...

Nicholas

It really is tediously predictable to start bleating about "Little England" (you with the nasty pseudonym) in a thread about Scots nationalism!

From a lousy re-invented party (New Labour) with stinking policies (which I bet you voted for) we have got this mess and plenty more. The New Labour fairness and equality agenda seems to have created more divisive bitterness and hatred than ever before. The animosity displayed here between Scots and English is truly saddening.

Gawain

JohnPage, I'm a little confused by your last post. The proposal being discussed today in cabinet, as I understand it, is that the Scots should have a clear decisive vote on the Union in the next eighteen months. No one is trying to stop them leaving. All many of us want is a decision one way or another so we no longer have to hear Scottish politicians droning on indecisively and slagging off the English. There was a particularly unpleasant SNP politician on the Today programme this morning going out of her way to be provocative and insulting.

URAllPigs

@Nicholas
Wowsy - who got out of bed the wrong side this afternoon? Though by now you must be used to choosing the wrong side.

There's certainly plenty of hate and bitterness on display in this place. This isn't the first time you've let yourself down on that score, is it?

michael

Salmond's basic economic premise, as a tax haven like Ireland, is a real can of worms despite a probable green light from new boss Merkozy. The remnants of the UK will be forced to compete, there being absolutely no way that Scotland can pretend to have a low insignificant profile.
With a tax competitive UK the main losers will be France and Germany who will then have to choose.... The City or The oil.

Alan T

Its a win win situation for Cameron. If the Scots votes No he can say he saved the Union. If Scots votes yes, there will be no need for any Labour MP's (including Brown and his cohorts), so should be able to make the Conservatives the natural ruling party.

WetherspoonThree

Oh dear, does anyone think Nick Clegg might help?

dercavalier

Alan T Unless you're one of the wealthy, privileged, cronies in the SE be careful what you wish for!

disenfranchised

@ Nicholas......

"new labour wrecked britain through their twin evils of devolution and mass immigration (look at the schools thread). probably the most destructive force in british history for a thousand years."

with their hateful social engineering/diversity nose-rubbing new labour were definitely the most destructive force in british history for a thousand years; no probably about it.
our england has been snatched away from us.
no longer recognisable to us, we've been forced to live in a foreign country.....

JohnPage

With George now running the Scotland committee, this could go t*ts up in any direction. If Salmond told Scots to ignore a Westminster referendum and there would be a Sottish referendum designed by Scots for Scotland (and was it not a manifesto commitment?), what answer would the lumberers at Westminster have?

Nicholas

What and you think that a pseudonym "URALLPigs" doesn't constitute a certain measure of hate and bitterness?

Still, hypocrisy has long been the stock in trade of your fellow travellers. I think I'd rather be on the wrong side, whichever that is.

Man in a Shed

And will the potential Scots outside of Scotland get to vote ? Note this would make Westminster organisation a necessity.

Hexhamgeezer

URAl Pig @ 12:12pm. You 'avin a larf chum?

A few years ago folk were quite happy with the Union but I don't think Salmond and Sturgeon quite realise how much their appearances turn the stomach. Neither does dave or georgie boy.

There is a less than zero chance of the 'North' wanting to throw their lot in with an even bigger bunch of failures than our home grown liblabcon loons. Leave them to their 'Axis of Prosperity' or whatever it is they want to join.

BTW, change the name. Pigs are lovely intelligent creatures who don't fail to cheer you up and taste phenominally good.

Dusty

"Cameron forcing the issue is not part of their plan.
I dont think Salmond expected this to happen...tee hee"

That's exactly what Salmond was banking on. hook line and..........

Danielle

Maybe Cameron should spend less time antagonising English people instead of worrying about Scotland. There are over 50 MILLION people in England and 5 million in Scotland. This needs to be put into perspective. We hear the Scot Nats case, the Unionists case so when are we going to hear the English Nationalist side of the argument?

George Laird

Dear Russell

I feel I must take you to task for this statement:

“A nastier, bitter, loudmouthed, violent race of people you couldn't meet anywhere in the world”.

It was England that invented concentration camps.

Also Scotland has contributed much to the world by invention.

John Logie Baird and Alexander Graham Bell for example have had such a profound effect on the world we live in.

Sir Alexander Fleming, James Watt, Charles MacIntosh, James Young Simpson, James Young, Kirkpatrick MacMillan and John Boyd Dunlop, all have done remarkable things too.

Sir Robert Watson-Watt invented radar which effectively saved Britain during the war.

In any country there is a nasty element, but it is much the same the world over.

Scotland has much to offer the world as an independence country if it chooses to go its own way.

Why is it that Westminster shouts long and long about the rights of others to be free when it refuses the same right to Scotland?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Home Rule for England

270 miles? You sure you've got the right Stratford?

Home Rule for England

Alan L "and we will never have a Labour govt again" Maybe Tony Blair will return? He won two majorities in England! Unfortunately for Labour, we English were not happy for a PM elected in Scotland to be de facto English First Minister!

dercavalier

To Russell
"...A nastier, bitter, loudmouthed, violent race of people you couldn't meet anywhere in the world...". Oh yes you can!!! The English!
And the latter are also drunken riotous slobs (male and female) and unfortunately also pollute the well known resorts of the mediterranean.

Cynic

There hasn't been a union since Blair messed up devolution leaving England with no English representation while still having to foot the bill for the others. If Cameron had any sense he'd give the English a referendum on whether to let Scotland be independent before Salmond could organise his own. As it happens, I'd vote to let them go. They should stand on their own feet without the Barnet formula and raise their own taxes. Then Dave could offer a fait accompli to Salmond. I'm not sure exactly what DevoMax involves but I'm fairly certain it will involve maximum expense for the English.

Home Rule for England

George Laird "It was England that invented concentration camps". Scotland never had any involvement in S Africa then? Is that why there are places with such native names as:

Aberdeen
Albany, (Alba)
Cathcart
Grahamstown
Balgowan
Dundee
Glencoe
Scottburgh
Abbotsford
Argyll
Balmoral
Brushwood Haugh
Buccleuch
Craighall
Douglasdale
Dunnotar
Dunvegan
Glen Atholl
Glen Esk
Melrose
Melville
Strathavon
Wattville
Balfour
Orkney
Arniston (Arniston, Midlothian)
Clanwilliam
Elgin
Gordon's Bay
McGregor

There's many more!

George Laird

Dear Home Rule for England

It appears that I have upset you.

You appear upset because I mentioned concentration camps, a British invention.

A stain on everyone within Britain at that time.

I would assume that within that system there would be some Scottish people working too.

There are nasty elements in every country and Russell shouldn't be so quick to tar everyone with the same brush.

The fact that no one felt willing to take Russell to task except me is disappointing.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Bill Sadler

Too right Cameron would be quite happy to see Scotland depart the UK. This is the most obvious and blatant case of gerrymandering. With only one Scottish conservative out of 59 MPs he can at a stroke increase his majority by 58.