Salmond lays the ground for his referendum
Hamish Macdonell 8:38pm
So now we have it: the ten words which Alex Salmond hopes will end Scotland’s
300-year-old membership of the United Kingdom. ‘Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?’
The First Minister unveiled his consultation paper on an independence referendum today and, to the surprise of many, actually did what David Cameron has been asking of him. He came out with a short, simple, clear question on independence which he wants to put on the ballot paper.
The debate will now rage as to whether this question is fair (is it, for example, too positive? Should it perhaps include something about the United Kingdom?), but this does mark a fairly big step on the road towards agreement.
Both the UK Government and the Scottish Government have now (pretty much) agreed on the date. Yes, Mr Cameron reiterated his view today at PMQs that the referendum should be held sooner, but privately, the UK Government are willing to concede on the autumn of 2014.
Then we have the Electoral Commission. Mr Salmond also announced today that he was willing to let the commission oversee the referendum. And he also added — crucially — that they would be able to assess, test and approve his question.
This may well take it out of the hands of the UK Government. London ministers may not like the question, but if the Electoral Commission okays it, then the UK government — having insisted on the commission being in charge — would find it near impossible to argue for a change.
So, we have the date, we have the Electoral Commission involved and we have what may be the question. What else is there for the two sides to argue about?
First, there is the franchise. Mr Salmond wants to extend it to 16 and 17 year olds, and the UK Government objects. Mr Salmond may well concede on this in the long run. Yes, he believes he has more support among the young, but he is unlikely to go the wall on this issue if he stands to gain agreement from the UK Government for dropping it.
And then there is the stand-out issue of the second question. Mr Salmond renewed his call today for a second question on ‘devo max’ to be on the ballot paper, if there is strong support for it.
He believes there is backing in Scotland for a ‘third way’ (not the Union, not independence, but something else) and he desperately wants to secure enough backing from so-called ‘civic Scotland’ to persuade the opposition parties to back it. But this remains the big imponderable and we won’t know the answer until after all the consultation responses are in, sometime in late May.
Looking at the whole issue now, though, it is hard to avoid the impression that we are inching towards a deal and that Mr Salmond will get the referendum he wants. Today marked the start of that process. Scots will vote in two and half years and, if Mr Salmond gets his way, the elections of May 2016 will be the first for an independent Scotland.
They are only ten words, but they may end up being pretty significant.
Previous
Ian Walker
January 25th, 2012 8:54pm Report this commentWith the referendum on straight independence, it's possible to make a (fairly weak, IMHO) case for it being a Scotland-only vote.
But for the 'have your cake and eat it' option of 'devo max', considering the financial implications to the rest of the country it should be a vote for the whole UK.
HarryX
January 25th, 2012 9:01pm Report this commentIt's up to Scotland if it wants to be independent, but if it chooses Devo Max, then lets have a referendum for the rest of the UK and get shot of it. It's time Salmond stopped setting the agenda, if they want to go good luck to them but if they want it all ways under 'devo max' then they should be sent packing by the rest of the UK.
dc96
January 25th, 2012 9:29pm Report this commentIt's a leading question. Mr Cameron should propose "Do you agree that Scotland should remain a part of the UK?" and see what the response is.
Frankly
January 25th, 2012 9:30pm Report this commentWith Reference to the Referendum:
http://tinyurl.com/82v9tbq
drayner
January 25th, 2012 9:33pm Report this commentNone of the other parties want this devo max nonsense on the ballot paper. That's 129 MSPs united as one about the fact it should not be on the referendum paper. Civic Scotland will just have to suck up the fact that just like me, they got to elect their representatives at the parliament and that they speak on our behalf now. The churches and whatever other groups this civic Scotland supposedly represent can go and do one frankly. It's settled.
Salmond will get his question, he will get his answer. The answer will not be one he wants.
Mal
January 25th, 2012 9:52pm Report this commentThe ".. third way.." is what Salmond actually wants because he knows that is all that is achievable. But what is it?
Boudicca
January 25th, 2012 10:11pm Report this commentMr Salmond's question is loaded in favour of independence. Asking if you agree with a proposition leads someone towards saying yes.
The question should be reworded to something like:
"Do you believe Scotland should
a) remain in the United Kingdom
b) Become independent.
(tick one)
Austin Barry
January 25th, 2012 10:18pm Report this commentTime to flood Scotland with Third World immigrants and cut these Bravehearts off at the knees.
The Jocks clearly don’t understand or appreciate that our elites are against any form of ethno-cultural determination.
Freedom!?
Nah, multicultural amorphism rules, my deluded Caledonian revanchists.
Altogether now,
“O Flower of multicultural, vibrantly diverse Britain, of which Scotland is an integral part...”
Sing, wee Jimmy, sing....
Philip Walker
January 25th, 2012 10:25pm Report this commentI certainly can't see the extraneous 'Do you agree' making it through the regulators. You could as easily ask 'Should Scotland be an independent country?' without the extra words.
Sandy Jamieson
January 25th, 2012 10:51pm Report this comment"Time to flood Scotland with Third World immigrants" but we already have.They are EU citizens from Roumania, Bulgaria, Poland and soon Croatia. Of course Alex has announced he will give them the vote to split the Union but the 350,000 Scots who live in England and Wales will not be allowed a say on the destiny of their own nations.
No votes for Foreigners should be our rallying call
saddleworth
January 25th, 2012 11:30pm Report this commentDevo-max has much more to do with England that it does with Scotland. England cannot accept that everything bar foreign policy and defence is being devolved to Scotland and England leaves all its government with a UK Government in which Scotland still participates.
However if England takes control of its own economy the real power is then with an English government which in importance will dwarf the significance of a UK Government.
What constitutional mayhem can them follow with conflicts between the economic power of England and the figurehead UK Government!
Devo-max is not just an issue for Scotland and well Salmond knows it. English politicians need to take their collective head out of their collective backside and start to point this out - loudly.
daniel maris
January 25th, 2012 11:43pm Report this commentThey could have a referendum on that if they wish. I don't agree it would be a mandate for leaving the UK. And it contains an aminguity - no doubt a unionist would say Scotland is already part of an independent country. It's not as though it is occupied by some foreign power.
It would only be a mandate to negotiate independence at best. Are we in fact talking about a two stage referendum?
A better question would be:
"Do you agree to negotiations commencing between the Government of Scotland and the UK government with a view to arranging for
Scotland to secede from the UK and become an independent country?"
Wilhelm 1
January 26th, 2012 4:32am Report this commentIt would be so nice if the English, Scots, Welsh had a referendum on immigration, the question could be
Do you want knife wielding African rioters, looters, rapists, muggers, rappers who practice a little bit of witchcraft on the side in your country, who aren't bringing anything to the party except untold misery for whitey ?
Yes or No, I wonder what the response would be ?
John
January 26th, 2012 4:40am Report this comment‘Do you agree that England should become an independent country?’
Answer--"Of course."
Martin Keegan
January 26th, 2012 5:40am Report this commentSlight correction: it's "be" not "become" (... and independent country) in the consultation document
Man in a Shed
January 26th, 2012 8:14am Report this commentThere is also the question of denying the vote to almost million UK citizens who are also Scots and live in the rest of the UK.
TrevorsDen
January 26th, 2012 8:20am Report this commentAs has been pointed out the question is clear.
a - remain in UK
b - become independent
Trem
January 26th, 2012 8:52am Report this commentIf they say Yes, will he have a mandate to join the EU?
dorothy wilson
January 26th, 2012 9:19am Report this commentOn the Today programme an American academic - who had never heard of Salmond - arguing that this way of posing the question is totally biased. He went as far as saying it would give a 9% loading in favour of independence.
Sir Graphus
January 26th, 2012 9:27am Report this commentDevo max sounds nice but it doesn't work. Salmond knows it.
Douglas Carter
January 26th, 2012 9:29am Report this commentAt least he's come up with a coherent question.
Labour announced in 1995 that IF they decided that the UK was to join the Single Currency then there would be a Referendum.
Seventeen years on, they've still not been sufficiently honest as to come up with the question to be asked.
WetherspoonThree
January 26th, 2012 9:37am Report this commentThis suggestion will not be popular. But wouldn't it be more honest and transparent if the Coalition made clear its intention to abolish the Barnett formula and announced measures to resolve the West Lothian question BEFORE the referendum on independence.
I really don't believe the rest of the United Kingdom will stomach any more special treatment for the Scots which permits them to enjoy a higher standard of living than the rest of us. These bribes and inducements are provided with little or no gratitude and at our huge expense.
starfish
January 26th, 2012 10:00am Report this commentAll very jolly
Now, can we have some detail
Who can vote, what is the residency requirement to have a vote, what does 'independence' mean, what are the terms of that 'independence'.........
Pete
January 26th, 2012 10:09am Report this commentDevo max is a given.
In which case why not have a UK wide referendum in 2013 to settle this one question?
This would give enough time to organise the constitutional arrangements before the next election.
Win win for Cameron and no more whinge whinge.
Mac
January 26th, 2012 10:25am Report this commentGane, Set and (soon to be) Match to Moses, no Mugabe, no Pol Pot, no Hitler, no Wee Eck.
Polls are beginning to show that Alex Salmond's positive messages are having an impact on voters in comparison to Unionist fears and smears (see above) - there is ever growing support for indpendence.
Fatbloke on tour
January 26th, 2012 10:26am Report this commentHMcD aka Toenails
Why does an independence party, an independence movement need a second question?
Did Gandhi need a second question?
Did the Founding Fathers?
Did Mandela? Apartheid Light?
Put it in the context of WW2.
Was WC wrong, should we have put Lord H in charge?
Instead of standing alone should we have accepted Surrender Max?
The concept of Scottish independence as put forward by Wee Eck is now a busted flush, it is a complete joke a mish mash of flag waving and holding on to Britannia's apron strings.
The whole thing is an attempt to find a puddle for the two wee fish running the SNP.
Pete Hoskin
January 26th, 2012 10:30am Report this commentMartin Keegan: Thanks for spotting that — we've fixed it now.
Private Schultz
January 26th, 2012 10:33am Report this comment@ dorothy wilson
Yes, I heard that too - and his suggestion that using 'Do you agree _or disagree_ ...' would balance the question better. Boudicca's question looks good too.
Fatbloke on tour
January 26th, 2012 10:40am Report this commentPeter @ 10.09
Devo Max would need UK agreement.
It is not Scotland's to implement.
Devo Max is Stage 1 of Wee Eck's grand plan.
If he gets it he will monkey about with corporation tax until England demands independence for itself.
Wee Eck then looks smug.
Wales and NI then look uncomfortable.
Russell
January 26th, 2012 11:17am Report this commentIf the scotch people living and working in England want to vote in an Independence referendum, I suggest they hand in their notice and move back to scotland, a million less jocks in England would be most desirable.
Kittler
January 26th, 2012 11:36am Report this commentStrange request, Man in a Shed.
No, "Scots" in the rest of the UK cannot have a vote.
The Union State does not recognise any such species as a "Scot".
It only recognises people resident in Scotland.
If you want an "official" identity then you must have sovereignty.
So vote Yes.
John Adlington
January 26th, 2012 12:28pm Report this commentAs an Englishman I feel profound shame at some of the nasty, petty, borderline-racist anti-scotish bile being poured out in some of the comments in this thread.
Axstane
January 26th, 2012 12:30pm Report this commentScots living in England, Wales or Northern Ireland will not have a vote but Salmond wants to extend the franchise to underage children.
I am sure he will give Sean Connery a vote though.
He was on the telly yesterday rumbling on like Fidel Castro and we see that only he and his supporters will get any airtime. The BBC would always be in favour of the break-up of the Union since it shows not a shred of patriotism and certainly little objectivity.
Wilhelm 1
January 26th, 2012 1:32pm Report this commentFatso on tour
Calm down and quit squealing.
If Scotland becomes independent, the labour party is truly buggered thats why Fatso is squealing from the roof tops.
Redneck
January 26th, 2012 2:23pm Report this commentJohn Adlington
Very gracious of you to say so, thank you. We do need to be careful we don't fall into an English-Scottish slanging match here: that would play perfectly into Mr Salmond's hands. No need for it, we've been fellow countrymen for hundreds of years now; much British blood spent in defence of the UK.
Redneck
January 26th, 2012 2:24pm Report this commentAxstane
Bet even Mr Connery's wife will be given a vote via some SNP equality-eligibilty loophole!
francbanc
January 26th, 2012 2:40pm Report this commentThe only way that question would be fair is if the word 'now' came after 'should'. It would certainly make someone think more about possible consequences.
eurocrat and scottish nationalist
January 26th, 2012 2:52pm Report this commentMethinks westminster cheats on referenda.
79 and all that.
By the way, how was the question framed on voting reform?
Normally a yes/no is asked of the proposed change, not of the status quo.
Robin of Bagshot
January 26th, 2012 3:20pm Report this commentWe must be in an asylum.
We Scots are expected by the SNP to vote in a referendum with a loaded question using an electoral roll which will have to be adjusted now to include 14-year olds and to make a decision about the prospect of a Scotland where, amongst other uncertainties, its public debt and possible revenue are unknown and where there are no clear proposals put forward at all about the constitution it might adopt, the currency it will have, its defence policy and its position in relation to the EU.. My goodness!
Redneck
January 26th, 2012 7:20pm Report this commentRobin
Well-said.
Richard Beck
January 26th, 2012 11:06pm Report this commentI live in Northumberland. Until retirement I spent a lot of time on business in Scotland. The question of independence was a regular subject of conversation with a "captured" Englishman for the last 40 years. In England, certainly the Southern half, it has never been treated seriously until now. I am afraid that almost regardless of the result of any referendum result the damage has already been done. A vote to remain inside the UK, unless by a massive majority, will only result in increasing efforts by the independence supporters to get the result they wish for eventually. This could be running sore for another 300 years. Perhaps it is time to acknowledeg this and part amicably.
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