Freedom for Shetland!

and I'll go to bed at noon

This is... beyond pathetic. Can't wait to see Massie eviscerate this one in his ongoing "Better Unionists Please" series.

Minekiller

Good article. I imagine Wee Alex and Nicola hadn't thought of this one. Alternatively, The Orkneys and Shetland Islands might vote to remain in the UK and we'd end up with a Northern Ireland-Eire scenario....I wonder then if we'd see the dark side of the SNP emerge?

itsyourself

A new low? Possibly? But worse may be to come.

Shakes head in utter disbelief. Wonders if Fraser read the devolution referendum results for the areas mentioned before writing this travesty.

Tom Pride

Mischief making Fraser. Tut Tut! As bad as me mentioning Iran World Cup 1978. Duck! Here comes the haggis.

Scott D

scare monger scare monger scare monger... yawn

Oskar

How very British.

All suggested purely through concern for Shetlanders of course.

Mr Danger

Reminds me of an issue that arose in Canada in 1995, when the French speaking, largely left wing province of Quebec wanted to separate. The Grand Council of the Crees in Northern Quebec asked, quite reasonably, how they could (yet again) be 'assigned' to a new country without their consent. And it dealt quite a blow to the separatists.

ThigArLatha

I was going to say something but I think I will wait for Massie to put you to the sword.
YET AGAIN.

Rhoda Klapp

Every little race or nationality or distinguishable community must be consulted. Except one.

James Sproule

The comparison with Canada is extremely apt. Northern Quebec is sparsely populated but rich in energy (hydro electricity in this case). Southern Quebec can come up with any number of plans to spend the money (Quebec is the last home of the true "Dirigiste"). When Canada made noises about accommodating the Northern Quebec Indians in the rest of Canada, the Quebecois said the Province could not be split. The hypocrisy of such a stance, not to mention the threat of loosing the largest source of provincial revenue had a significant on public opinion.
There is a valuable lesson there for the UK.

BasilMetabolism

Except AShetland's a county not a country, would be up the creek if Unst got independence from them, and it was developed as a scare story when Scotland thought about independence in the 70s and how many times between then and now - Oh that's right - precisely never.
Reminds us the unionists will try rigging the election like in the 70s then gerrymansdering the borders like in Northern Ireland. We'll take what we came in with as we leave. How those 29 counties evolve after that is a Scottish matter.

Cynic

Why does the edge of the light blue area (which I presume means national entitlement) take a dip to the south when the logical extension of the border would go straight on?

Swiss Bob

We've got all the gas!

Add the shale and if the Govt isn't completely stupid the UK ex Scotland is set for centuries of cheap clean energy.

David Cockerham

There is a serious underlying question here: are there any limits to the right of self-determination, and if so how do you define them? The USA settled the matter in the Pledge of Allegiance - 'One nation, indivisible' and fought a bloody civil war to uphold the principle. The only doctrine we seem to have is that of self-determination, which is handy for defending Gibraltar, the Falklands and Northern Ireland and for recognising that as ancient nations Wales and Scotland can walk anytime they like. But surely only luck (or knowing so far which side their bread is buttered on) has saved the UK from having to define the limits to that right in order to prevent Cornwall, or some other chunk of the country that sees itself as a distinctive culture, from trying to walk. Producing a definition that didn't undermine the self-determination defence of The Falklands etc would be no simple matter.

EC

(1)

You got there at last, Fraser!

The Shetland Islanders' have an absolute moral and legal right to self determination which is guaranteed by UN Charter. As incomprehensible as it may be to some, the Shetland Islanders may not trust or want to be governed by Salmond's gang.

John Grundy

I read this thought provoking article in the mag - & I believe the comments from the Scot Nats show how vulnerable they are to the "Where does it end?" question

EC

(2)
The United Nations INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON ECONOMIC, SOCIAL AND CULTURAL RIGHTS

PART I
Article 1

1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

Angles

Don't worry Rhoda. To paraphrase the provos (which is not to endorse their methods): our time will come.

ellubo

This boring propaganda makes you a Shetland separatist - better watch out or the unionist bogeymen will burn you.

Kittler

A small technical problem. Oil is in the continental shelf. Not all islands generate a continental shelf. It requires a land mass. Australia has that but I don't think Northern Isles would.
Evidence. The Channel Isles do not have a Continental Shelf of their own, nor do they create a UK one. The French CS goes out, round and then on behind them, to the centre of the Channel.

Kathleen

Fantastic article. Very well written and very logical and sensible points. I do wonder what response Salmond would have to this? More of his blustering bile no doubt. All talk, no substance.

David Graham

I live in the Scottish Borders, it is very pro-unionist and very conservative. We won't go along with Salmond no matter what the referendum shows.

John White

Partition. How original.

Sandy Jamieson

So if the Hebredies are so concerned about Independence, how come Western Isles was the first constituency to electet a SNP MP at a General Election in 1970 and has continued to do for most of the last 42 years

John White

How about independence for East Anglia, a unique area sadly neglected and scorned by the London elite - imagine the skyscrapers of Norwich after the Gas wealth came ashore..........

Andy Leeds

Let them breakaway from Scotland now and claim 'Enosis' - union with England !!!

John White

Additionally we can imagine the disaffected masses of Humberside claiming their mineral rights and continental shelf, then proudly appointing John Prescott as President for life. How many Jags can one man have?

David Cockerham

'EC '1. All peoples have the right of self-determination.'. Yes, but does the Convention define 'peoples'? If not, it's pretty meaningless, like much of the rest of the output of the UN.

Kittler

Good God EC, that means sharia law is coming to Bradford and..

R Wilson

What a synical piece of writing. This stinks of hidden tory propaganda designed to wreck any Scottish self determination. If i was an Orcadian or Shetland islander I think i would rather stick with Scotland than being run by a London egocentric party only interested in lining their own pockets. Lets have a sensible and truthful debate without this nonsense. Personally i'm starting to get fed up with Nelson and his poisoned attitude. Grow up!

Alan Farquhar

Not much to say here. Only that this is the poorest and most ridiculous article I've read on The Specator.

RPC

Why is everyone ignoring the Vectis question? Freedom for the caulkheads!

Robert

Shetland is the most pro UK place in the UK in both world wars more men were killed per head of population than anywhere other in the UK

james of Dundee

Shetland has never been a country...if it was allowed to choose and then chose not to remain part of Scotland then surely it would choose Norway over bankrupt England? The Western isles was part of Scotland when Alba was formed.
Scotland by the same right would be able to canvas in Berwick and Man for return of these territories, and England can put pressure on Germany over the Heligoland islanders right to self determination?

Siôn Eurfyl Jones

This piece is straight from the whitehal ministry of unionist lies and misinformation handbook. Unionists need to up their game quickly or they will have lost the argument forever.

EC

Kittler. January 31st, 2012 10:11pm

"Good God EC, that means sharia law is coming to Bradford and.."

Coming? It arrived over 10 years ago, Kittler.

Fergus Pickering

When I lived in Scotland the local politicians were not at all averse to lining their own pockets. And how many houses has Mr Darling got? Or was it London that corrupted him. When the Irish became independent the local politicians became national. Pillars of virtue headed the sea-green incorruptible government. There was Lemass. There was Haughey. The names roll off the tongue, starting with Hitler-loving de Valera. But the Scots would be different. Of course they would.

The word is 'cynical' by the way, from the Greek which I learned in Edinburgh, though I doubt I should learn it now.

The other thing I learned was that a Scotsman with a grievance is not easily confused with a ray of sunshine and that every Scotsman cuddles his grievance close to his heart. Here's tae us. Wha's like us. You may continue if you wish.

My brother lives in Shetland. Shetlanders, whatever they decide to do, are not Scots. Protestant Ulstermen - now THEY are Scots all right.

Fergus Pickering

I'm just winding the Scots up because I'm a bit of an arse. I do apologise.

Max

Divide and rule, an act of desperation Fraser ?

I've waisted 5 minutes of my life reading this supercilious load of old piffle, an embarrassment to the Spectator. You might as well say Normandy should be part of England since it was part of England longer than part of France.

Or East Anglia belongs to Denmark and Cornwall belongs to Brittainy.

michael

What are we supposed to do with this?
-Go ner ner n ner ner at the Scots?
Well, it'll tie in nicely with the divisive tactics and strategy of AS.

Gregor Addison

Saved to my "Mad Unionist Propaganda" folder for future reference.

Rab C

It's not that long ago that Shetland Islands Council were petitioning Westminster to give the Scottish government more control over North Sea oil. Also, the bod who designed the (very popular) Shetland flag also happened to be a founder member of the local branch of the SNP. Draw your own conclusions.

Widmerpool

An amusing piece Fraser and in this vein somewhat tongue in cheekily could I suggest independence for London!

With a substantial subvention of the income it generates for UK plc also RBS without the dead hand of Government might even be sold at a profit one day!
The following can be considered:
1. A natural London Border the M25!
2. A prospect of a 15% Income Tax Rate No CGT or ITT [cf Hong Kong]
3. Compulsory military service[like Singapore] that might deter some of the rioters
4. Turning the House of Commons into a 6 star hotel financed by a rich Russian or Chinese and pack off the MP’s to Manchester where their anti business outpourings are shared by their neighbours there the BBC and the Guardian!
And Boris for Chief Executive Ha Ha!

Max

Unionist fear, scaremongering and Paper Tigers

1. England will get the pandas from Edinburgh zoo ! tick box.
2. William Hague, UK embassies will stop advertising scotch whisky ! tick box.
3. Shetland doen't belong to Scotland ! tick box.

It's quite sad and pathetic.

Unionist Lies

I hate to pull the carpet from under you, but the Shetland Movement has been dead for many years. Hardly anyone in the islands is talking about greater autonomy, let alone outright independence or declaring allegiance to Norway, admirable though the Scandinavian way of life is. Shetland's connections - for NHS services, university/college education and outward migration in general - are with the North of Scotland and the central belt. Oh, and Shetlanders voted 62-38 for devolution in 1997. So perhaps those doing this unionist scaremongering should stop writing all this patronising piffle about people of whom they know very little.

Peter From Maidstone

Orkney and Shetland were Norwegian until the 15th century. There is no ancient connection with any Government in Edinburgh. In any case, the right to self-determination is not determined by history but by democracy. If the Orkney and Shetland islanders wished to be independent of a Scotland run by Salmond would he allow them to make that choice for themselves?

Scotland may notionally be a country, but it is not really much more than a large county itself.

starfish

It is interesting how the terms and boudaries of Scottish Independence can apparently only be defined by the SNP

No-one else has a say

Bit like the ANC in the South Africa

Very democratic

Kittler

Quite right Widmerpool, the majority of the London population not being English, what you suggest is evidently sensible.

Kittler

Peter, we will worry about the Northern Isles whilst you can concern yourselves about your Northern Cities declaring themselves Islamic Emirates.

Mark

Islay, with 8 distilleries, could become a crown dependancy like the Isle of Man.

After all, it was home to the Kingdom of the Lord of the Isles, a title still held by the Prince of Wales.

Ian Walker

You'll be paying the Independent Republic of Kent some hefty toll fees if you want to use our ports for your exports.

Mind you, we'll need the money to afford the War Of Bromley with Widmerpool's London, since some parts of the county are inside the M25......

Wilhelm 1

London is already a foreign country, it's an African muslim third world slum.

It's got more in common with Soweto than the rest of England.

Steve Tierney

I can't really see why some comments are running this article down. It may well be mischief-making, but it's no less valid for that.

I believe there is a shift in public opinion towards smaller states - I think that shift is driven by a desire to "belong" to a nation which has been undermined by international developments over the last hundred years.

I suspect the thrust of this piece is actually correct - it will accelerate and we cannot imagine what the repercussions might be in the long term.

Rab C

Peter From Maidstone
February 1st, 2012 9:45am

"Orkney and Shetland were Norwegian until the 15th century"
The Northern isles have been happily Scottish for the past 540 years and show no inclination to unite with Norway -try again.

"Scotland may notionally be a country, but it is not really much more than a large county itself"
Yet more patronizing guff - like, twicw the size of Switzerland, denmark or the Netherlands to name but three. BTW dis you know that England is only a fifth of the size of France? maybe they should annexe it.

EC

"The Northern isles have been happily Scottish for the past 540 years and show no inclination to unite with Norway -try again."

"Happily?" Whenever I've spoken to islanders up there they've always been keen to tell me how independent minded they are. If they get a sniff of independence backed by petrodollars then it'll be bye-bye SNP & LIbDems etc. Do you really think that they are going to trust Salmond look after their money and best interests?

Hexhamgeezer

Ok,

Can we have an independent Northumbria? We've got more water than we know what to do with. And coal.

Unionist Lies

EC, that is simply not the case. There is no unified movement within Shetland for independence to speak of, simple as. In fact, the local council's performance in the past decade has largely discredited the notion of even gaining further autonomy from Edinburgh/London.

EC

2½ years is a long time in politics.

gavin

The Northern Isles ARE part of Scotland.However, if they wish to leave,there is still a small matter of the dowry to be paid off. With compound interest that will take care of the oil money for some time in advance!

scotto

educated at Gresham's School in Norfolk and University College, Oxford.

Reed served his National Service with the Royal Navy from 1956 to 1958, and from 1963 to 1966 worked and studied at Brussels, Bruges, Leyden, Luxembourg, Strasbourg, Paris, Rome, Bologna and Geneva.

So an English former Tory MP (for just 4 years until 1974 in Bolton East)is now telling us what can and should happen to our northern and western isles. Mr Nelson, how low can you go?

El Sid

@RabC
Geographical size isn't everything - indeed it can be a hindrance to the development of a national identity. Scotland has about the same population as Yorkshire.

The Northern Isles have been far from happy members of Scotland - along with the Highlands. The Scottish civil war of 1745 is more recent than the Union, and was fought by "rebellious Scots" from the Highlands resisting the imperialists in Edinburgh and their "loyal Scots" from the Lowlands.

There's quite a good argument for the Northern Isles being Crown Dependencies rather than part of Scottish territory.

J. Patrick

He's wrong about Wales being a nation before Scotland. Wales is at least a hundred years younger, possibly closer to two hundred, depending whose version of events you accept.

Lachie

A thought-provoking article, and the thought it provoked was - "Here we go, the same old poorly written, scare-mongering shit".

Rab the Cairn Terrier

El Sid
February 1st, 2012 3:24pm
"Geographical size isn't everything - Scotland has about the same population as Yorkshire."

Google yourself a list of countries by population size - Scotland isn't even halfway down the list, and is above such well-known failed states as N Zealand, Denmark (yes, them again) and Norway. One of the attractions of an independent Scotland is the good balance between population and available resources. Left on its own England is the most overcrowded country in Europe.

"The Northern Isles have been far from happy members of Scotland - along with the Highlands."

Highlands were solidly SNP in the last Scottish election. None of my Orcadian or Shetlander friends (and there are many) talk of their islands seceding from Scotland.

"There's quite a good argument for the Northern Isles being Crown Dependencies rather than part of Scottish territory."

If the argument is so good, how come the islanders aren't arguing for it?

Styles

I was born and live in Shetland. We the natives feel in many regards more Norse than Scottish, due to our very different heritage. It is felt that the SNP favour the central belt and Western Isles, they dont care about us, but do want our oil resources to pay for everything.
Us being controlled by Westminster or Hollyrood, its all the same, they all seem the same long distance away.
Ask a Shetlander what nationality he is and he will say he is a Shetlander foremost, not Scottish or British.

Amicus Alba

Good article that outlines "what's good for the goose" and is true to a large extent. However if the 'continental shelf' has any validity it would be just mischief making with a sense of humor. These islands have always been anti Independence and I suspect our bulbous chinned FM would happily allow Shetland / Orkney to leave.

And boy do these Nats get uppity and intolerant when views contrary to theirs are espoused!

Shetland Resident

I'm an Englishman living in Shetland. The idea that Shetlanders would choose to stay in the UK is comical. Shetland Islanders are a conservative bunch and they have strong ties with the Scots upon whom they depend in many ways. Independence from Scotland seems a bit far-fetched and even the scenario of Shetland seeking union with Norway or to become an autonomous Nowegian overseas territory is more likely than an kind of union with an ailing, distant and disinterested England. Let's face it, sharing the oil and and gas wealth with Scotland with its small population will make Shetlanders more prosperous than propping up the English economy. Goodbye Scotland Shetland!

wee shetlander

Shetland has not had a happy relationship with scotland. Ask the shetlander how the scots abused their ancestors. Don't assume that they will be keen to trust an independent scots goverment.

There is a large english population living up here so don't assume anything. If you could be bothered to look Tavish Scott lib dem ex leader had a very nast scare in the last ballot.

R.G. Bargie

If the Shetlands and Orkneys want independence they are as entitled to pursue it as anyone else. All they need to do is the same thing the SNP had to do - form a Northern Isles National Party, stand in elections, get voted in until such times as they can legitimately demand a devolved Parliament, achieve a majority in that Parliament, pass a referendum bill and secure a Yes vote.

Until such times as they take at least the first of those steps, articles like this will remain the tedious and hackneyed scaremongering they are.

If there was a demand for the Northern Isles to run their own affairs, why would they wait for Scotland to become independent first? Why aren't they asking for it now?

Stergios

The UK has recognized the independence of former federal entities such as Moldova, Georgia, and Croatia, but has refused to recognize the independence of self-proclaimed independent regions that have been formed within those countries such as Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Serbian Krajina.

The borders of federal entities are deemed unviolable in case of a breakup of the federation, the UK Government has taught us.

So, in case Scotland decides to become independent, the UK is obliged to accept the decision of the Scottish people and recognize their independence without the usual "divide and rule" treacheries that have earned it the nickname of "perfidious Albion".

Tammy_Tinky

The Uk is going to the Falkands 8000 miles away to protect our oil interests there .

Whats to stop it making the Shetlands and Orkney a British Protectorate ?

Salmond could hardly stop the Royal Navy , and it would take away halve the oil revenue !
making him "prey for Wind " from those infernal turbines .
To generate the revenue , to pay the benefits for his new found "Tartan Army "

Kavi Ugl

I'm from Shetland, and there's a low-level animosity against the SNP, rising from a feeling that it rewards those Scottish constituencies that returned an SNP MSP and penalises those foolish enough to return a Labour or Lib-Dem MP. Our antipathy towards the SNP was reflected in last year's election results, when the (parachuted in) SNP candidate came in a poor third behind a single-issue independent.

hearts upwards

Heres to the oldest national flag on this planet , Scotlands Saltire, being raised in all of Scotlands officialdom instead of the replacement Butchers Apron.

Thormod Morrisson

The writer takes it upon himself to speak for Orkney and Shetland. According to him, governmental distance geographically is an issue. Most of the people I know don't feel isolated or wrongly done by with regard to a government based in Edinburgh, but by an English government in London that has absolutely nothing to do for their interests. The writer is trying to use the islands to fabricate a weak unionist argument. And if he is so proud of being Hebridean in culture and harking back to the Kingdom of the Isles, then he should know that it was not one bit subservient to a London government, nor prepared to write like a base toadie for it.

Gareth

Nice to see the usual cut n' paste retorts from the SNP acolytes littered with the SNP-prescribed words: ' negative, scaremongering, etc' Nearly as funny as Salmond's 'independence is a natural step' argument. Surely unity is the 'natural order' - after all we evolved from blue-green algae to multi-cellular organisms? I wonder which part of my anatomy will declare independence soon as it's 'part of the natural order?'