Cameron's new offer for Scotland could mean a new offer for England

Nicholas

While we are at it could we have some discussion from Cameron & Co on the possibility of 'Devo-Max' for England? Currently we don't even seem to have 'Devo-lite'. In the spirit of the much vaunted but harder to find "equality and fairness" I'd especially like to explore, since the Act of Union in 1707 guaranteed no disadvantage to the citizens of each constituent nation, the question of tuition fees, prescription charges and hospital parking . . . to begin with.

telemachus'

As I posted yesterday Dave for the first time put Salmond on the backfoot. He needs now to sit back and wait for the inevitable reactive mistake from the Scottish Superego

Nigel Rupert Snodgrass

The Sun never set on the British Empire because God never trusted an Englishman in the dark, how true.

TomTom

If Independence is on the table it is essentially about Repeal of The Act of Union 1707 and that was itself a function of The Act of Settlement 1701 in its application to Scotland.

There are very real issues for Scots to consider since those living in England will not be eligible to vote and those Commonwealth and EU nationals living in Scotland will

Rhoda Klapp

Well Pete, I went to the IPPR site, holding my nose, but I found the paper linked to was very sound in its conclusions:

"we also believe that data presented here supports the claim that the English electorate desires what we have termed an English dimension to the country’s
institutions of government. Or in other words, it wants to see England more clearly demarcated as a unit from the rest of the UK, not simply by default or omission but by conscious commission."

And I remark that this change has come about entirely from within the English community, with no external political impetus save that related to the other UK nations. Englishness is still the third rail here, or so it seems, stoked by exaggerated fears of the dreaded english backlash and that unique form of nationalist threat that lefties always impute to any discussion of the English as an identifiable group. How many stories has the Spectator run about English identity or interests separate from those of the British or UK? What party stands for England? What thought did Cameron give to England when he made his speech yesterday, with its implication of more (unspecified) favour for the Scots?

Nigel Rupert Snodgrass

I always find it amusing when the English discuss Scotland, a far away country they know little of and care even less for, they're ignorance is breathtaking. If the English spoke about their black immigrants as they do about the Scots, Welsh and Irish it would be deemed racist.

I'm glad Alex Salmond is in charge of the situation and has old Etonian Cameron jumping through hoops. It's nice to see the English dance to Scotland's tune.

Helena Brown

Westminster really does not understand what it does, that only the Scots have the right to determine where they go, Devo Max is a blind alley which will be inspected but may be rejected by 2014.International Law gives Scotland the right to self determination.

Arthur

We need a new constitutional settlement in the UK; treating each of the nations in our country equally would be a good place to start. A federal system seems to work quite well elsewhere, why not here?

dercavalier

"...The consensus opinion across most of today's papers appears to be that Dave done good in Scotland yesterday..."

That would be English newspapers of course.
The man in the street in Scotland and (England at least among Daily Telegraph readers) is that Dave did badly and bent over for Alex.

Axstane

Fiscal autonomy for Scotland would impose on its government the total responsibilty for taxation. That, in turn, means the end of the Barnett formula subsidy.

The role of each country needs to be redefined then and England, Wales and N.Ireland must be allowed the same powers. Those in turn would mean the end of MPs from all 3 of those regions as we would have no jurisdiction over their processes so they could have none over ours.

The Union will effectively cease to exist except insofar as specific treaties would apply and Westminster would become the Parliament of England.

Too often I have seen our goverments undertake steps that had rather obvious outcomes which came as a sudden shock to the politicians who put it down to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

The eventual outcomes of the DevoMacs proposals are patently obvious and one does not need to be Nostradamus to forsee them.

Jannie Geldenhuys

'Could' result in a new deal for England???

It MUST result in a new deal for England.

The injustices and inequities of devolution must be resolved. Just don't expect the Lib Dems or Labour, the parties supposedly committed to 'fairness', to want to open this issue up. It's time the Tory leadership realised where its support comes from and started placing the party's voters' interests above the leaderships' 19th century unionist nostalgia.

Answer the West Lothian question now!

Timberwolfman99

The UK govt have been pussy footing around Salmond since his SNP win in Scotland, we need now to have a Government that stands up for England and the English people,any country that wants to leave the union can but the pro's and con's must be presented to the people of Scotland before any vote takes place, sure Scotland can run it's own civil service, but the romantic ferver that Salmond has is just that romantic ferver, if Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, are struggling to stay in the Eurozone how would Scotland fair once admitted, The Govt should fully cost any break up and publish the results it would make interesting reading.

michael

AS's one trick economic empirical ... cheapest pitch in the UK, so trade in Scotland.

oldtimer

I have just read Cameron`s speech (linked in an earlier post) and thought it struck the right tone and the right conclusion - namely that the question should be in or out. It was the speech appropriate for a PM to make.

Salmond`s Devomax question is clearly a separate issue that affects not just Scotland but the rest of the UK as well. In the Q and A section he raised several issues that it is incumbent on Salmond to answer, though it is evident that Salmond wants to change the issue from what he will do with independence to what devomax might offer.

I am curous to know, from those familiar with the debate, what impact Calman and the resulting Scotland Act will have on opinion in Scotland. From the outside I thought Cameron was correct to claim that the Scotland Act was a measure of good faith on the part of his government.

Robin of Bagshot

dercavalier. Apparently you have a loose bracket. The outlook too would seem to be different in your home village of Brigadoon than elsewhere in Scotland. And 'Dave did badly and bent over for Alex', what on earth are you trying to imply about the behaviour of our First Minister? Is he a bully or...?

Ian Walker

It could be viewed as a problem.

Alternatively, it could be viewed as a nettle that can be grasped, pulled up and composted.

It's odd how all the arguments that people make for Scotland leaving the Union could also be made for Britain leaving the EU...

Wyrdtimes

How about the UK parliament asking the English what we want for a change? Lets get all the options on the table - including a re-established English parliament. Lets have the discussion and then let the English decide the government best suited to our needs in a referendum.

UK politicians keep telling us that no-one wants an English parliament. Most surveys that have asked the question over the last few years however show a consistent majority in favour of an English parliament.

A radio4 ComRes poll last year put support for English independence at 36% (rising to 50% among C2s the skilled working class).

UK politicians ignoring the English questions isn't making them go away it's turning them to anger.

The 'Union' can be saved but England and the English need to be recognised and given a fair deal.

dercavalier

Robin of Bagshot. Don't bring your English homo-erotic fantasies into this site. Go to the Daily Mail.

dercavalier

Ian Walker. Except that England outside the EU would be a lot poorer. Whereas Scotland outside the UK would be a lot richer.

Kane Almsivi

Salmond was at no point put on the backfoot by Cameron. Cameron's performed a massive U-Turn by previously saying there should be NO Devo-Max option for Scotland, and now dangling a devo-max flavoured carrot in front of the Scottish electorate, much like that Alex Douglas Home did in 1979 - making a vague & very ambiguous assurance to devolve more powers if we reject independence. These are nothing pt political parlour tricks. Remember the Lisbon Treaty / EU Treaty? Did you get your vote after voting for Dave? Did you F&%$.

Robin of Bagshot

decavalier. My place of birth and current residence and preferred reading matter are no business of yours, the choice of words however was yours. It is enough to say that your assumptions in all ways could not be more incorrect. Perhaps best in your case to follow Denis Healy's First Law of Holes.

michael

"Except that England outside the EU would be a lot poorer."...About £5 bn pa better off with an unencumbered mandate to rebuild.

dercavalier

Robin of Bagshot. Good God. Talk about verbose. 50 words to say..."I am not gay".

David L

Agree with Rhoda and others. DevoMax needs to apply to all, not just for Scotland. And that means an English Parliament to conduct English business under the devolution settlement.

Of course Labout tried to get round that with their idea of English regional assemblies, but the voters of the North East, bless 'em, gave that the amount of shrift it deserved.

ROJ

"Cameron's new offer for Scotland could mean a new offer for England". Er, no, it won't. Because a new offer for England would involve an answer to the West Lothian question. Nick Clegg doesn't want that, so it won't happen.

Robin of Bagshot

dercavailer. Keep on digging that hole.

Hexhamgeezer

"It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine."

.....as these comments amply demonstrate.

Cynic

Salmond has succeded in convincing more English that it would be a good idea for Scotland to leave the Union than Scots.

Rhoda Klapp

So, how about a post here based around the constitutional future of England? There have been goodness knows how many about the Scots, even though the question is pretty cut and dried. In, out or shake it all about. The shake it all about option involves the rest of us. I wish we could have a post to cover it, on the lines of the IPPR document linked to above, without drifting inexorably into Scottish issues which I regard as amply covered and a different subject.

Uncle Brian

There is already a Scottish Assembly and a Welsh Assembly, even the Isle of Man has its own three-legged wossname, so all that's missing is an English Assembly. In fact, constitutionally speaking, a federal state in which England, Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland and even, perhaps, the outlying little bits and pieces like the Channel Islands all have the same degree of autonomy as each other, and also have equally shared responsibilities at the federal level. Just like California and Rhode Island, say.

Stephen Gash

I don't actually believe that IPPR report. The IPPR has been promoting regions and opposing an English parliament for years. It beggars belief that after numerous polls showing support for an English parliament constantly around the 65% mark, it suddenly falls below 50% for the first time in 6 years. Especially so considering all the talk about Scottish independence.

The laughable thing is Cameron saying that he doesn't want to be Prime Minister of England only, when he is already that in effect. He has no say on Scottish domestic matters, which is why he was in Scotland talking to Scotland's First Minister. Then he laughably says that if Scots vote "no" to independence their parliament will get more powers, thus making him even more a Prime Minister of England only.

We English must have a referendum on an English parliament ASAP so that we can install an English parliament to fight England's corner come Scottish separation. The iniquities dumped on England by devolution show clearly that Cameron and all the other British MPs in Westminster cannot be trusted to ensure England gets a fair deal from the separation settlement.

Axstane

Nigel Snot

You talk about it being a change to see England dancing to Scotland's tune. During New Labour's 13 years in office we had two Scottish Prime Ministers, two Scottish Chancellors, about a dozen Scottish Defence Ministers, a Scottish Foreign Minister and two Scottish banks we had to bail out.

I forgot two Scottish Lord Chancellors, a Scottish Speaker and the Scot we sent to head up NATO plus 4 spectacularly unsuccessful Ministers of Transport.

Alasdair Rankin

Oldtimer - about Calman and the Scotland bill - it is already winging its way towards the dustbin of history. The UK political parties profess to think it worthwhile but the electorate in Scotland regard it as essentially time-expired. IT contains too little and even that is not coherent.

Frank Furter

We all know the logical solution is a federal structure with a high degree of home autonomy and parliaments for the four nations, whilst a federal parliament would look after defence, foreign relations, homeland and border security, and federal finance. The Queen would remain Head of State of the federation. We (the British) have devised some highly successful federal structures: The USA, Germany, Australia, Canada - are we incapable of putting our own constitutional mess in order? Cameron should propose a constitutional convention to draft a federal constitition which would be ratified by a UK wide referendum. Such a proposal would include Scotland if it rejects indepence - but would go forward anyway amongst the remaining three if Scotland vote to leave. As an aside, such new arrangements should also include the Channel Isles and the Isle of Man.

George Shepherd

The big surprise was that Cameron conceded Devo Max yesterday - an interesting movement in position vs a month ago - he is the real heir to Blair - willing to give in to anything just to remain popular and get a few good Daily Mail headlines -triangulation in action

Salmond couldn't believe his luck yesterday - he knows that Devo Max is the most he can realistically hope for and the SNP would do well in a Devo Max Holyrood

Miracoleman

Quick question: how come the government's cavalcade in Scotland was made up mainly of BMWs? One would think that, seeing as Britain produces high quality cars, its politicians would want to promote them and, by extension, UK PLC. That said, one would also think that tenders for new infrastructure projects like railroads would also be given to home grown talent - but no, unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.

Nigel Rupert Snodgrass

Axstane. No comparison old chap. Scotland has had to put up with English prime ministers and English politicians for 300 years. You're getting a taste of your own medicine now.

MilkSnatcher

Much simpler than you all think. Before the Scots vote, open a petition in England that England wishes to be independent of the Union. If you get about 18m votes in favour, that's yer referendum done. Cameron could not ignore it and we'd be one step closer to an English Parliament. If that happens it would be worth paying to fly Mel Gibson over to watch the result.

Angus McLellan

@MilkSnatcher: "[O]pen a petition in England that England wishes to be independent of the Union. If you get about 18m votes in favour, that's yer referendum done."

There are enough bizarre delusions and myths circulating in England without adding to them. Attlee ignored a Scottish Home Rule petition with 2 million signatures on it, so Cameron, Clegg and Miliband have good precedent for ignoring any English petitions. Or did you already know that and were simply making trouble?

Lithgae Dave

@axtane 2:21pm

There were around 23 members of the Labour cabinets. The maximum number of Scots in the Labour cabinets, at any one time, was 7. Latterly there were only 4 with 2 of them being in minor positions.

Also, as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, Labour had an overall majority of seats in England in 1997, 2001 and 2005 and was not dependant on non-English MPs for their majorities in Parliament.

Roy

If I were Scottish and lived in Scotland I would relish the thought of breaking away. The English are stuck with the mess consecutive governments have indulged the country. It would appear beyond the wit of the present elected incumbents to come up with the modicum of a plan to rejuvenate the country. All they can do is sally forth giving advice to others, hoping something will turn up, clinging tightly on to mother Europe, while the ship of state goes merrily toward the rocks.

Fergus Pickering

Miracoleman, we used to buy second rate British stuff for our armed forces instead of the first rate American stuff. We used to buy lousy BL cars that fell apart instead of the Asian cars that we now drive around in. I have had four good cars: German, Swedish, Frennch and, the jewel in the crown, Korean. What should I have been doing?

God

Ferg Picks'' What should I have been doing.''

Do you really want to know ?

John

These SNP contributers are such relentlessly sour types eg Fergus Pic.
which is rare and usually precedes a barbed comment.All smiling hatred and malice. That is, when they can raise a smile.Always with a trite reply about how poor Scotland was hard done by even when they were't.
Totally self preoccupied, with no generosity of spirit.Always with an axe to grind.
When you think it,its surprising the union has lasted as long as it has.

Robin of Bagshot

The blog http://scottishlaw.blogspot.com/ often provides interesting reading on some aspects of contemporary Scotland. The article in December on the SNP's "sectarian" bill being perhaps particularly enlightening.

2trueblue

Whether we like it or not Scotland will get her independence. I like it.

England has been the looser in all of the debate because we had a Labour government in power during the devolution process and the question in their minds was the break up of England by regional assemblies. The assemblies are in place and cost a lot, the amount of power they have varies and on some Eu maps England does not appear, just the regions.

It was not of interest to Labour as they hate England and that is the problem. All this was put in place under the Scottish raj we had running our country. That is what should never have happened.

2trueblue

There is the assumption that Scotland will be better off. Why? We certainly would be better off.

douglas clark

Stephen Gash,

Perhaps your moment has come? Your difficulty appears to be with the Lib / Lab / Tory establishments who appear to be against giving you what you yearn for.

If constitutional issues are making ripples now, then now is the time to try to convert them.