The implications of today's border security report

Axstane

Damian Green again. That man is a liability in his present role - mentally flabby.

Herbert Thornton

Virtually all mainstream poiticians are determined to ignore the problem and to do nothing.

Hence all this obfuscation. UKIP, the EDL and the BNP are the only viable parties that show any determination to do anything. If you want change, vote for them. If you think that none of it matters and that nothing need be done, keep on voting for Milliband's, Clegg's and Cameron's lot.

Cynic

I should have thought that the implications of today's border security report would be that there are most likely an awful lot of people who shouldn't be here who have slipped in!

Michael

Well, to be honest the only sane approach is sod the passengers...

Heartless Curmudgeon

If there are failings, they may be put firmly at the feet of the ever-present trendy bendy lefty PC brigade, ably assisted by the simpering inadequates that form the 'government', - and by extension, all those well-paid placepersons in the human-rights industry.

Well past time to clear these stables out too. Anyone willing and able to do it, - that have not yet been replaced by yet more simpering place-persons?

Swift

So, when will the Spectator be giving its view on the "Operation Matrix" trial at Liverpool crown court, involving 47 alleged cases of paedophilia?

Chris

We're spending vast amounts of money on farcical security theatre to keep a few bigots happy.

We should join Schengen and save the cost of most of this. Instead, we have large numbers of jobsworths who simply make travel difficult for British people.

Holly ......

So the top bods at the UKBA were too thick to understand communications or too lazy or
arrogant to confirm anything with the home secretary?
Not just with the current HS, but previous Home Secretatries.
Not a peep from Coop about anything she agreed with in the report, just the same old,boring,predictable Labour rubbish.
So we have Miliband for PM, Balls for Chancellor & Coop for Home Secretary.
Tee hee.

daniel maris

I wouldn't have thought the Associate Director of the IPPR would be so naive as to think the government intended to do anything effective to stop mass immigration.

richard mullens

I want change, but not in the direction of the little Englanders in UKIP, EDL or the BNP.

Immigration control inconveniences the traveller, costs a lot to implement, dissuades bona fide tourists from coming here to spend money and keeps talented people out of the country. And for what ? just to satisfy a small number of malcontents concerned that the country is going to be overrun by terrorists - it would be laughable were it not also so sad.

2trueblue

richard mullens, don't travel to the US, Australia, etc......
Border control is the norm, just like you would not leave your front door etc open all the time.

TomTom

Why not simply leave the borders open ? Britain has such problems pretending to restrict entry, it is no longer worth bothering since the country is disintegrating. Just let anyone in and dismantle the police too for all the good they are

Trev

@swift
Probably around the same time the m.s.m start reporting it....Never!

richard mullens

@2trueblue

I have no desire to travel to the US, Australia etc. Why would one want to go there anyway ? Latin America is much more interesting, not only is it more welcoming, but it is cheaper and you will find real food not the muck that is served up by burger chains. These countries don't waste a whole lot of money on immigration control. See Chris's comment above.

We need immigrants. They are prepared to work and want to come here - so don't expect change any time soon.

telemachus'

It is difficult to square this with a free society wishing to enhance our talents, outlook and performance as we have over the years from Henry Plantagenet through Handel to the American Winston Churchill.

Colin Cumner

Hmmm. I would say the implications are that Britain's previous governments, particular the Blair/Brown administrations, just let anyone and everyone into the country. Now it seems that those 'in charge' realise (far too late, of course) coping with this huge influx of migrants, both lawful and unlawful, is proving to be a logistical nightmare. Proof again that those who dwell in the halls of Westminster are so divorced from reality that they might well have stepped out of the pages of 'Alice in Wonderland'.

EC

May looks as if she's got wind again.
>
Ah, so it was a failure of political leadership not management.
And the remedy? Why another another reorganisation, of course. Trebles all round!

Nicholas

Keep straining the infrastructure here, mullens, and real food will just be a memory. Demographics and sustainability are obviously not your strong points. By all means go to South America and preach your self-destructive cant there.

TrevorsDen

The presence of thick pea brains like Axstane make this site pointless.

This is all Labours scandalous doing. 13 years of out of control immigration.
Pathetic wretches like Cooper are a joke

Jez

With all due respect,

This article is yet more fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Again and again. Over and over. New and exciting ways to say the same thing for over a decade at least.

Absolutely outrageous.

dorothy wilson

For someone associated with a Labour supporting think tank to criticise anything to do with immigration control really takes the biscuit.

However, the crux of this problem - as with so many emanating from public sector organisations - lies in the sentence: "Given this, their evident lack of interest in operational matters until the crisis hit is remarkable."

Ministers should NOT be concerned with operational matters. That is the job of managers. And what is evident in this sorry saga is that there was - is? - a complete lack of effective management within the UKBA. The crucial word there is "effective". In other words, management is not about a tick box culture but about ensuring that the overall strategy is implemented and operated and that they and their subordinates are accountable for doing so.

All that said, Ministers need to ensure that the overall strategy is clearly articulated, on the desks of the senior managers, accepted and understood by them and communicated down the chain of command.

Wilhelm 1

If you let one in, you have to let them all in, haven't you ?

Why don't we go the whole hog and let in 1 Billion Chinese and 900 million Africans ?

That's what marxist one worlders like Maris want , a vibrant and diverse London. And we can see were that led to last summer, London turned into the Gates of Hell.

Thanks a bunch.

Patricia

Nicholas said:
"Keep straining the infrastructure here, mullens, and real food will just be a memory. Demographics and sustainability are obviously not your strong points. By all means go to South America and preach your self-destructive cant there."

Totally agree. England is full.

richard mullens

@Nicholas

Keep voting BNP and don't forget to practice the "rivers of blood" speech and tell us more about how it feels to be a victim of the imposition of immigration you poor thing.

strapworld

Border Control is a total farce.

This government is proving daily that it is not able to control anything.

Instead of making disciplined armed service personnel redundant they should give this job to the military forthwith. But Cameron prefers to get rid of good people and allows incompetents to do the job of securing our Country.

Why have we allowed such a wimp to be in charge?

richard mullens

So Patricia, are you the "lady" on the train ?

youtube then /watch?v=L0IOj1J-4Po

Alison

richard mullens: "We need immigrants. They are prepared to work..."

All of them? Are you sure?

Talk a walk through Woolwich town centre on a Saturday night, if you dare.

dorothy wilson

richard mullens: you should ask the traditional working class people how it feels to be "a victim of the imposition of immigration". Their answer is likely to include their wages being held down, pressure on housing and the coming pressure on schools. And that's just for starters.

richard mullens

@Alison
My experience is that immigrants are prepared to work when given the chance. Just pop along to Tesco's during the night shift to see the shelf fillers. Moreover immigrants do most of the unpleasant jobs - like traffic warden or ticket inspection - not that that endears them to the average British voter.

Patricia

"So Patricia, are you the "lady" on the train ?"

Oh Lordy. Have opinion on immigration = raaaacist.

FF

The job of the UK Border Agency is to let people in. That point seems to have been lost.

Sure we could do an Edo Japan and ban foreigners entirely. But we don't live in that world.

Nicholas

@ mullens, I have never voted BNP in my life nor would I ever. But it is typical of people like you to resort to that nasty jibe when your propaganda driven immigration fantasies are confronted by the negative realities. Still, at least you got "the imposition of immigration" correct. It was imposed without consent.

Try a proper argument instead of that tired old lefty cliché so bereft of any intellectual honesty (or intelligence) and which demeans you far more than I.

richard mullens

@Nicholas

If you would like a civilised debate then don't characterise my posts as "cant".

As regards "consent" I previously posted the following:-

From the Labour manifesto of 1997:

"High priority for enlargement of the European Union to include the countries of central and eastern Europe and Cyprus, and the institutional reforms necessary to make an enlarged Europe work more efficiently."

And that is what the electorate voted for.

richard mullens

@Dorothy Wilson

Is it wrong that the nation should try to better itself by allowing an able and willing workforce to enter ?

Well, I don't think so. It is easy to demonise immigrants, but they are not the problem. The failure is that we have perhaps not dedicated the resources to providing infrastructure and training to cope with the influx.

If sufficient housing were made available, wages could fall without hurting people. We are paying ourselves too much and supporting a body of people who are just not productive - UKBA, immigration lawyers, planners, etc etc.

URAllPigs

Bottom line on this - irrespective of your views on immigration - is that the Tories are incompetent. They were all over this for years while in opposition, blowing the dog whistle, asking, "Are you thinking what we're thinking?". After 13 years away from the levers of power, you'd have thought they'd have an effective strategy for delivering their objectives. But no - they failed to get a grip of the management of the immigration service; and net immigration - the measure they chose to demonstrate success or failure - continues to rise.

TomTom

"tell us more about how it feels to be a victim of the imposition of immigration you poor thing."

So which part of Bradford do you live in richard mullens ? Do you know much about the daily shootings ? Do you know much about population density in areas of Bradford exeeeding Gaza ?

Nicholas

@ mullens if you would like a civilised debate then don't you hurl around accusations of BNP, Powell "rivers of blood", etc., when people choose to disagree with your odd pro-unlimited immigration stance.

You throw around the BNP insults and then suddenly bristle with indignation because your posts are described as "cant"? And "cant" indeed. Your last post confirms it. Firstly, as a member of the electorate I didn't vote for New Labour in 1997 and 46+% of those voting didn't either. Secondly, their manifesto pledge to "enlarge" Europe had nothing whatsoever to do with the uncontrolled and/or deliberate immigration from third world countries they imposed on a scale never before seen.

No consent from me and no consent from the majority of Brits either. It's time to wake up to the fact that you and people like you are in a minority on immigration. People don't like it and parroting New Labour propaganda or trying to shut them up by accusations of racism won't change that.

Jez

Well said Nicolas & Patricia.

Have an opinion and prepare for attempts to bully you into silence.

Dani

@ richard mullens

"As regards "consent" I previously posted the following:-

From the Labour manifesto of 1997:

"High priority for enlargement of the European Union to include the countries of central and eastern Europe and Cyprus, and the institutional reforms necessary to make an enlarged Europe work more efficiently."

And that is what the electorate voted for."

For the majority of the electorate politics is little more than a dull background noise and very few will read the manifesto at all let alone word for word and even if they did they may not agree with every policy. So to say by voting Labour in 1997 a voter supports every word of every policy is very misguided. Also that statement does not deal with any non-EU immigrants; a major issue for many people.

Wilhelm 1

Mullens squeals

'' We need immigrants .''

Why ? There is 3 or 4 million unemployed here.

Ps Love the '' We '' when it's really YOU that want immigrants.

Wilhelm 1

Mullens

'' They are prepared to work .''

The subtext is the English whitey are lazy, bone idle, good for nothing. The truth is big business loves immigrants, it's cheap labour, pay them peanuts. English whitey won't work for buttons.

'' And WANT to come here.''

Do they, really ? Well if your so generous, why don't you put them all up at YOUR house then ?

Dani

Mullens has got something right in that lots of immigrants DO come here to work. I used to work at Asda and the foreign employees were generally much harder working.

Wilhelm 1

Mullens

''just to satisfy a small number of malcontents concerned that the country is going to be overrun by terrorists - it would be laughable were it not also so sad.''

Yeah, those 60 innocent victims families who were murdered on the London underground by muslims are laughing, it's God damn hilarious.

Nicholas

mullens:- "Well, I don't think so. It is easy to demonise immigrants, but they are not the problem. The failure is that we have perhaps not dedicated the resources to providing infrastructure and training to cope with the influx."

Oh, for goodness sake. No-one is demonising immigrants but rather demonising the stupid politicians who thought it was such a good idea to impose massive scale short term immigration on us "to rub the right's nose in diversity, etc." and the incompetent idiots in the Border Agency who can't/won't do their jobs properly.

And the rest of your comment rather confirms my earlier comment about infrastructure and sustainability.

Dani

There is huge unemployment in this country however the idea of large scale channelling the British unemployed into the very low paid jobs is fanciful, the majority would rather claim benefit.

I propose heavily overhauling the benefit system- currently to claim JSA all you have to do is write on a bit of paper that you looked on 3 websites/newspapers for a job per week and that's it! Jobseekers should be made to attend colleges or study courses from home, funded by the Government (this is already in place but the Jobcentre do a very slack job of communicating it) as well as applying for jobs. These qualifications will make people more employable giving a chance to earn a decent wage and leading to future prospects.

Wilhelm 1

I've heard this hackneyed line before

'' Immigrants are all hard working ''

They spew it out like demented Pavlov dogs, whether or not immigrants are hard working, ( they could help little old ladies cross the road, they could all be like St Francis of Assisi for all I care ) that's ALL irrelevant, they should not be here in the first place.

There is no African or muslim immigrants in Japan. Japan educates and trains their own population and provides them with jobs. That's a radical concept, isn't it ?

In Britain, it reverse, we don't educate and train our population, dump them on welfare and import millions of blacks and muslims to do the work.

Is this wise ? Seems like national ethnic genocide to me.

Wilhelm 1

When was the last time you were stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway and said these words

'' You know what this country needs, more people in it.''

It has never happened and never will.

richard mullens

@Nicholas

I believe that I suggested you might be a BNP supporter after you accused me of "cant".

What you did or didn't vote for in the 1997 election is neither here nor there. The fact is that Labour were elected by the British populace. I didn't vote for them either - though I did like that part of their manifesto.

Moreover third world immigration is much less than that of the influx from the enlarged EU. The truth is that "net immigration" figures are a lie as it includes students - the majority of whom go home after their study is complete. You are misrepresenting reality either out of ignorance or more likely to support your nefarious political agenda. Well, good luck to you. You will fail - but don't stop your efforts at rabble rousing on my behalf.

Check out the bio of Dominic Raab who is on the anti immigration side the "enough is enough" debate. His father is an immigrant and he has a Brazilian wife. The hypocrisy of the political class is well known.

Moreover the Conservatives were for many years unelectable because of their infighting over Europe. Few care sufficiently for this to be other than a storm in a teacup fanned by an irresponsible press.

richard mullens

@Wilhelm 1
The 7/7 bombers were UK citizens - not immigrants - concerned that we were bombing their relatives in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan - and they had a point, even if I don't agree with their methods.

Terrorism has arisen because of our foreign policy but it is overstated and an exaggeration to think that border controls will have any effect on it - and meanwhile we have lost freedom of speech.

How many immigrants have you got living in YOUR house then I wonder.

richard mullens

@TomTom

You are clearly lost. You mention shooting in Bradford, then what about the shooting of an Indian student in Salford allegedly by "Psycho Stapleton" ?

Wilhelm 1

Mullens

'' The 7/7 bombers were UK citizens !!! "

If they were truly British then, why would they murder their fellow kinsmen ?

The truth is they aren't British, they're Pakistani muslims who were given British passports ( a scrap of paper ) by the British Government ( who are not working in the interests of the indigenous British ) .

As I've said many times before, Jesus was born in a stable, it doesn't make him a horse, now does it ?

Wilhelm 1

Mullens

'' How many immigrants have you got living in YOUR house then I wonder.''

You don't get, do you ? I don't want immigrants in the country, so I don't want them in my house. A nation is like a house but just bigger.

You on the other hand WANT immigrants in the country but you're not prepared or willing to put one single immigrant up in your house. So you're a hypocrite.

Wilhelm 1

What Mullens and Maris ( It's like a gruesome double act, bit like Burke and Hare ) fail to grasp is that when third world immigrants work here, they get paid and send the money back to their parents in the old country.

Thus the UK economy doesn't benefit at all !!

M71

@ Richard Mullens - " how many immigrants have you got living in YOUR house then".
You've surely lost the plot when all you can do is repeat a question that was asked of you, can, can't, can, can't, can, can't can, can't etc. You've given into your usual abusive, childish name calling rants backed up by a blind indifference to the reality experienced by many. I'm sure it goes down well at your dinner parties with the rest of the also rans but you don't fool anyone with an ounce of commen sense. I await the vitriol.... you're just too easy.

richard mullens

@Wilhelm 1

Don't forget the corollary, you may not have been born in a stable, but you can still be an ass.

Wilhelm 1

The TRUTH of the matter on immigration is this

1. The tories and big business like immigrants because it's cheap labour, pay them peanuts.

2. Labour and Liberals are coming to it from a different angle, they know that communism and socialism is dead. How are we going to get elected ? Bring in millions of Africans and muslims, they will vote labour. Labour doesn't give a shit if the countries cohesion will be buggered up.

Either way the indigenous British ( whitey ) are screwed .

richard mullens

@Wilhelm 1
"You don't get, do you ? I don't want immigrants in the country"

Tough. Nobody cares what you want and I would have thought this would have become clear to you by now.

Wilhelm 1

Human beings since the dawn of time are tribal and territorial, we like to be around people that look like us and sound like us. It's primeval. This is perfectly normal and natural.

Birds of a feather flock together, like goes with like.

You don't get the detestable cult of Multiculturalism in the animal kingdom, do you ? After all humans are animals, aren't they ? It's a bit like mixing oil and water, it just doesn't work and never will.

Dani

@Wilhelm 1

Do you not think immigrants are generally harder working? Remember business doesn't see colour it only sees profit so therefore employs the most productive employees.

Why are low paid jobs generally filled by immigrants and not British people?

richard mullens

@M71

Not to disappoint you, I suppose that you are an alter ego of the idiot M42 (the gun not the nebula in Orion)

Wilhelm 1

Mullens

'' But you can still be an ass.''

That's name calling, that's what you do in Primary 3. It's the most graceless act of admitting you've lost the argument.

This conversation can serve no purpose anymore, I will not be communicating with you again. Goodbye.

And with that, you're dismissed.

Ps. I will grant you permission for you to have the last word.

telemachus'

Wilhelm 1
Kaiser : I was taught in primary school to confront a problem not to turn my back on it and say goodbye. But then my school was one of these Northern Schools staffed by left wingers we used to call Masters.

richard mullens

@Wilhelm 1
The ethnic make up of Colombia is as follows:
58% Mestizo
20% White
14% Mulatto
4% Afro Colombian
3% Zambo
1% Amerindian

They live harmoniously. All that nonsense about "national ethnic genocide" makes me wonder if you side with the Aryan Supremacy concept. Judging by your name, this does seem plausible.

richard mullens

@Wilhelm 1

"That's name calling, that's what you do in Primary 3"

And calling me a hypocrite in a prior communication ? Seems that the pot is calling the kettle black.

Considering your remark about Jesus not being a horse despite being born in a stable, I thought it was a rather witty rejoinder to suggest that you might be an ass even if you weren't born in a stable.

Dani

True I only go by what I hear in the news but isn't Colombia a drug and gang ridden country with a massive murder rate?

richard mullens

@Dani,

I think that that aspect of Colombia is exaggerated. In 3 months I was only offered cocaine once - by an Australian.

The murder rate is high - but it is lower than the Bahamas.

I found Bogota a friendly place where people got on with what they were doing without interference by the police - Street traders weren't hassled even if they used electricity from the street lights. There's poverty for sure but it's very efficient - everything of the smallest value is recycled or repaired.

Herbert Thornton

It seems that some people don't like Ukip, or the EDL or the BNP and prefer the status quo. So, let's fast forward to later in the century. There will be no UKIP, nor EDL, nor BNP - but consider this - there will be no Labour, Liberal or Tory parties either.

Why? Because by then by far the biggest issue of concern to Britain is the fact that its population has risen to 300 million. Food is very strictly rationed, but even so, people are not just malnourished and starving - but the National Health Service has been re-named as the National Euthanasia Service.

The 21st century Establishment has then split into two factions. Both are in favour of large scale euthanasia, but they believe in different criteria for entitlement to it.

The first faction is called the Religious Party. They believe that the greatest danger to society is the existence of people who are either highly intelligent or are unbelievers. They want the National Euthanasia Service to have the duty to 'persuade' both infidels and highly intelligent people to make use of the services offered. The Religious Party's real aim is not just to reduce the size of the population, but to make the general population even more stupid than it already is, so that both the government and wealth of Britain stay firmly in the hands of religious Clerics.

The other faction is called the Realist Party. The Realists believe that the greatest danger to society is the existence of people who either stupid or religious. They want the National Euthanasia Service to have the duty to 'persuade' both religious people and stupid people to make use of the services offered. This party's aim is to solve both the over-population problem and the problem of stupidity.

There is, naturally, much controversy about which policy should be preferred.

The Religious Party condemn their opponents policy as an abomination in the sight of God.

The Realist Party on the other hand base their policies on sophisticated cost benefit analysis.

The British Establishment has never before been so split. So which faction will prevail?

Dani

What a weird post have you been smoking something?!

Malfleur

What the editor of the Spectator didn't want to discuss, Simon Heffer illuminates in today's DM:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2104550/Mass-immigration-Labour-tried-destroy-Britishness.html

Frank P

Where Nelson feared to tread, Heffer has intrepidly marched:

*ttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2104550/Mass-immigration-Labour-tried-destroy-Britishness.html

Hang your head in shame, Fraser! At last - someone in the MSM has had the balls the to say it.

Nicholas

@ mullens - I'm intrigued to know what my "nefarious political agenda" is and why your views do not constitute a "nefarious political agenda"! To keep commenting you are clearly passionate in your pro-unlimited immigration views. How so unless you have an agenda or adhere to one? And why is mine "nefarious" but yours not?

The evidence of large scale immigration on this country is largely empirical and has little to do with students (except where they are used as an excuse/cover). The statistics might or might not reflect that, depending on who is using them and why. I think it is you who are out of touch with reality. My beef is with the self-destructive leftist collective who imposed this on us and then tried to shut us up not with the immigrants. But it serves them a useful purpose to conflate or distort the two whenever the subject comes up. Labour and their acolytes are ever ready to dodge and weave when it comes to responsibility and blame, as well as capable of staggering, bare-faced hypocrisy.

I note that the moment the subject came up your first comment referred to "the Little Englanders of UKIP, EDL or the BNP". So you are not blameless in your perpetuation of this distortion/conflation.

richard mullens

For the feeble minded:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2104550/Mass-immigration-Labour-tried-destroy-Britishness.html

richard mullens

@Nicholas
My initial post was just a reply to that of Herbert Thornton who advocated that we should vote for one of what I call "little Englander" parties.

Yours (like the DMs) is a "nefarious" agenda because the aim seems to be to make people unhappy with the situation by propounding what to me is a conspiracy theory (see the Labour manifesto).

I am just trying to put an alternative view forward. It is that despite there being legitimate concerns, immigration is good for the country - and that we are wasting an awful lot of money on the UKBA, lawyers, preventing asylum seekers working etc - that could be better used elsewhere.

I have met talented people abroad who have been refused entry to the UK on the pretext that they were considered likely to overstay. They were all professional types who generally play by the rules and in consequence our country gets a bad name and visitors are discouraged from coming here to spend their money - so my thesis is also that the UKBA is a racist organisation that damages British interests.

Herbert Thornton

Dani (Feb 21st, 10:44pm) -

1. Thanks for your posting - it reminds me that my satirical skill falls considerably short of Jonathan Swift's. Nonetheless, your reference to smoking enables me to remind you - I feel sure you must be familiar with it - of Swift's 'modest proposal' (as he called it) for the poor in Ireland to alleviate their poverty by selling their children as a food delicacy to be enjoyed by the rich.

Herbert Thornton

2. It also gives me the opportunity to demonstrate that satire is not always purely imaginary. Indeed the late 21st century proves it - because the National Euthanasia Service has taken to alleviating starvation by what we in early 21st century call 're-cycling'.

Herbert Thornton

3. Their smoked meat - sold in NES delicatessens - has become very chic, especially among Clerics in the Religious faction and rich, intelligent and powerful people in the Rational Party. In private, the Religious Clerics refer to it jokingly as "Holocaust Food". The Rational Party heavyweights on the other hand call the delicatessens "Mosque Eateries".

Matthew Tysoe

Richard mullens what you fail to realise is that this country is SMALL. The SE is running out of water, the country as a whole is running out of agricultural land. Mark my words in the next ten years most skilled middle class Brits will be planning their exodus to Australia.

richard mullens

@Matthew Tysoe

Agreed, there are much better places to go to than the UK - that's why opening the border is not a great risk. France, for example, has half the population density of the UK.

Sure it is inconvenient to have hosepipe bans in the South East (where I live) but I think you exaggerate the peril we face.

richard mullens

ACTA petition:-

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20685

The politicians want control of cyber space and intellectual property for their friends in the book, music, film, pharmaceutical, and agricultural businesses

Herbert Thornton

Judging by Richard mullens' comments, Dr Pangloss' shallowness seems not only to be widespread but to have become combined with the kind of destructive foolishness peddled by Telemachus.

Wilhelm has a far better grasp of reality despite having a bee in his bonnet about blacks.

richard mullens

Here's an example of the European Court of Justice "sticking it" rightly in my opinion to our legislature - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/pub-landlady-karen-murphy-wins-high-court-case-7440365.html

Yes Herbert, if you want tyranny, vote UKIP, EDL or BNP.

richard mullens

See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/pub-landlady-karen-murphy-wins-high-court-case-7440365.html for an example of the European Court of justice, rightly in my opinion, taking the side of the UK consumer against our legislation.

Herbert Thornton

Richard Mullens ( Feb 25th, 6:47am) writes -

"Yes Herbert, if you want tyranny, vote UKIP, EDL or BNP."

That, Richard, deserves a first prize for absurdity. It seems to have escaped your attention that Britain is already a tyranny of political correctness, complete with police and judicial and educational systems that reinforce it, and with the added burden of the tyranny of inane government from Europe. You must also adore David Cameron for his refusal to honour his promise to hold a referendum on Europe. You must actually like tyranny.

You cite the example of an enterprising woman who has a pub - apparently as an example of what you imagine to be good government from Europe. In fact, if there were true freedom in Britain, she would not have to pay anything for the privilege of showing her customers whatever she likes on the TV in her pub.

So, if you want tyranny - as you apparently do - then vote Labour, Liberal or Tory - they will give you more and more of it.

But anyone who dislikes tyranny and wants to escape from it should vote UKIP, EDL or BNP.

richard mullens

@Herbert,
Yes, we have a tyrrany, but with Europe our most oppressive laws no longer work !

Frankly, I would welcome a referendum - once the politicians have laid out the benefits of the EU - but they have failed to devote themselves to this task instead squabbling among themselves.

The truth is that EU law is an improvement on our own - UKIP, EDL or BNP may fight the people's corner better - but that's what 1930's Germany thought and where did it get them ?

richard mullens

@Herbert
Second paragraph
*ttp://thepoetseye.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/whats-the-point-of-a-revolution-without-general-copulation/

richard mullens

@Herbert

The "refusal" of Cameron to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty was not breaking a promise - it was too late, the UK had already signed up.

Herbert Thornton

Richard (Feb 25th 8:01pm)-

It is encouraging to read that you at least now acknowledge that Britain is already a tyranny.

However, apart from that, you continue to fail to recognise the truth about the increasingly totalitatian nature of Europe, and continue to give in to an urge to an incomprehensible urge to smear UKIP, the EDL and the BNP, as "Nazis" even though they are nothing of the kind.

Your 8:06pm posting is, on the other hand, (to put it kindly) strange.

Herbert Thornton

Richard says -

"The "refusal" of Cameron to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty was not breaking a promise - it was too late, the UK had already signed up.

That just parrots the same feeble excuse as Cameron used.

The fact is that the treaty was entered into underhandedly and deceitfully.

Now we're told that it's a fait accompli so it's impossible to hold a referendum about it.

How can such brazen deceit and lack of scruples akin to treason make anything valid?

Richard, try pulling the other leg.

A referendum can be held on any question whatsoever.

richard mullens

@Herbert,

It is easily explained, the government has more important things to do than to undo the Lisbon treaty (or to hold a referendum on leaving or staying in the EU - if you prefer). While you may believe it is crucial, there are other more pressing things to do.

Most important, public sector spending has to be cut so that borrowing can be repaid and to make spending less than tax receipts.

Additionally, the coalition and the Conservative party would fall apart if Cameron were to institute a referendum on Europe. The Liberals took enormous flak for voting for increased student fees and would not stomach an exit from the EU.

You will not (as perhaps you know) get a referendum this parliament.

Watch the film, it's about revolution (specifically the French revolution) and recognise the truth of the second paragraph - the proletariate only care that their bellies are full and they are adequately housed.

Herbert Thornton

Richard (Feb 26th, 8:46am)

1. I agree with much of your posting - up to a point. I accept that a referendum during this parliament is unlikely and I agree that the improvident level of public spending is an issue of vital importance.

I also recognise the relevance of your references to the French revolution.

But I see no prospect of any of the three major parties - Labour, Liberal or Cameron's Tories having the courage to significantly reduce public spending. Reducing public spending would markedly cut down on the Bread and Circuses (as those are now understood). That terrifies the politicians of all three major parties, so they will go on spending, despite the fact that their spending can lead only towards a result like we now see in Greece.

Herbert Thornton

2. Then, when the crunch comes, will ordinary people keep on voting for the Labour, Liberal and fake Tory parties? I wonder. For one thing the population itself is steadily losing the character it had 50 years ago. A significant difference is that a rapidly growing part of the population is Muslim. There is likely, before long, to be an Islamic Party too. Can you imagine that in a coalition? It should make us shudder, but what should make us shudder even more is the number of Labour, Liberal and Tory politicians (especially Cameron) who would eagerly compete to be the ones to strike a coalition bargain with them.

Herbert Thornton

3. Consider too the fact that in virtually every country in the world where there is a population that includes substantial numbers of Muslims, the presence of Islam creates perpetual hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims which repeatedly boils up into violence and murder.

Herbert Thornton

4. Consequently, when the crunch does come, I foresee a population that is very far from unified. I foresee the breakdown of institutions - and not just revolution, but the possibility of civil war. It is not unthinkable. Britain has had civil war before - and not just in Cromwell's time. The exit of most of Ireland from the Union amounted to civil war too and that was in the lifetimes of many people now living.

Herbert Thornton

5. Is it unreasonable to foresee non-Muslim voters concluding - "We should have listened to and voted for UKIP, the EDL and BNP years ago when they could have averted this - but now it's now too late because they are all too moderate."? And then where will people look?

The Muslims will look to their own extremists - of whom there is even now, no shortage - and the non Muslims will do the same. I don't know what the non-Muslim party will be called, but it should surprise nobody if they call themselves Breivikists.

Herbert Thornton

6. As for the E.U. - I don't see how, in the long run, the Euro can survive. It reflects the standards of the European politicians and bureaucracy, the financial affairs of which appear to be permanently hidden from proper audit and where mis-spending is endemic. It would insult crooks to call the European heirarchy crooks because crooks are generally more competent. If the entire rotten edifice collapses presumably that should put paid to the Treaty of Lisbon too? But it would be better to exit sooner rather than so that Britain will have more time to better prepare for the consequences of the collapse.

Herbert Thornton

Oops - that should have been "sooner rather than later".

richard mullens

The reality of living in the UK for an illegal immigrant

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17183171

richard mullens

@Herbert

I don't know the figures for the % of Moslems in the UK (especially those of a religious nature) but dilution by Chinese seems a possibility.

Herbert Thornton

Richard,

I do not know how many Chinese have settled in the UK, surely there must be at least 100 Muslims to each Chinese?

I fervently wish it were the other way round. I say that both from having spent several years living in China and from counting people of Chinese origin among my personal friends, business colleagues and acquaintances in Britain and in Canada.

Yet you write of 'dilution' by Chinese as if it were the most undesirable thing imaginable, when the truth is that they are the best immigrants since the Huguenots.. Indeed you give the impression that you prefer immigrants to be Muslims.

richard mullens

@Herbert,
No, I prefer Chinese. I play Weiqi - so I know at least a dozen (some in Europe). I don't know any Moslems, though I have met a few over the years.

In London, one can often hear Mandarin in the buses and Chinatown seems to be enlarging.

I went to a Catholic boarding school so I know a little about religious extremism !

In truth we have to talk to the Moslems. I have been in Luton and I can imagine that people could find it intimidating.

I always try to make eye contact with women wearing the Niqab :)

richard mullens

Here's a good story http://www.untoldstories.org.uk/cambridgeuntold/cu_art08.html - don't know if he's a moslem - but I'll check out his store next time I'm in Mill Road, Cambridge.

richard mullens

Comments take an age to appear here - it is almost as if they are being discouraged.

richard mullens

*ttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9110170/School-with-700-pupils-has-only-26-native-English-speakers.html

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