Salmond chooses the Brownite way

John Millington

An independent Scotland would have to adopt their own currency. Given the current eurozone crisis, no sensible person could advocate a loss of monetary control. Even if Salmond wanted to join the Euro in the long run, he'd have to take Scotland into ERM2 for 3 years first - requiring a currency that Scotland can control, and I can't see the EZ relaxing the entry requirements particularly for a country with little fiscal history for 300 years.

In2minds

Don't they look well together?

Peninsula

This is a fantastic piece of impartial, objective journalism.

Statements are based on facts, and there is no agenda or supposition whatsoever.

A fine example to anti-independence supporters everywhere.

The only way to remove the outrageous scourge that is Scottish self-determination, is to combat it in the wholly fair and just manner exhibited in the article above.

It's also a great example of British journalism at its very best, and a perfect illustration of why the Scots must stay in the union.

Keep it up.

MajorFrustration

Please please please just let them become independent and let them sink in their own egos

Thomas Widmann

Surely nobody expects the SNP to be in power forever after a Yes to independence -- it might even fall apart shortly afterwards -- so surely the SNP's long-term financial policies are not that interesting. After independence, it will quickly become apparent how good or bad Scotland's finances really are, and any government, whether SNP, Labour, Tory or LibDem, will react to the circumstances.

Davey L.S

Looks to me that as the questions about devolution begin to demand a more detailed answer Salmond begins to lose some of his magic. He has had it easy so far, but this will be a long campaign and as the scrutiny of the options grows there will be less room for him to hide.

Fatbloke on tour

Trevor

When we're the boom years?
You are havering, talking up an alternative universe to try and generate a fig leaf of credibility for your dog boiling.

Nick

Why bother putting things on Coffee House website on a Sunday evening when you have no one around to approve comments.

It ruins your entire comment section that it is so often delayed for hours. No chance of any real debate.

Please do something about it.

Nigel Eton Hogg

''Small countries tend to have a no-deficit policy: Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand, Luxemburg and Estonia all did in the years before the crash. All are in pretty good shape now.''

I'm glad Fraser supports independence.

Fatbloke on tour

Trevor - aka "Fraser" the fastest spinner in the Nelson family even though his brother is a DJ.

You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel, what happened a heavy night last night?

GB had nothing to do with a 3% deficit rule.

Fergus Pickering

Ah the Fatbloke's gone to Scotland. Don't be in a hurry to return, O stout one. As for boiling dogs, the Scots will eat ANYTHING but it has to be deep fried.

RMH

When we Barnett formula the debt he will be sorry

Tiberius

"In a Times debate on Friday, SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon said they’d use sterling — whether the Bank of England liked it or not — and would not need the Bank to be a lender of last resort because Scotland would be so fiscally sensible it wouldn’t need it."

God help us.

And I'll leave it to David Starkey to come up with a more articulate answer to that comment.

daisy leverson

Scotland should not be able to use sterling without proper debate in England about the possible consequences of this for England. Scotland has the right to decide its own future but England has the right to protect itself from future liabilities.

Garve

"Most unionists believe the figures don’t stack up on an independent Scotland"

This being the case, surely if they wanted to, Westminster could create a completely independent commission to provide precise figures for the assets, debts, income and outgoings of Scotland, now and (as far as possible) post independence.

This would allow us to make our decision based on the facts. There's no sign of any intention to do this, which leads to a suspicion that in fact such a commission would find that Scotland would do very nicely indeed.

Nicholas

Can't you come up with a better term than "dog boiling" fatty. It is very tedious you know.

Besides I thought you would have bigger fish to fry after that fracas in the bar the other evening.

David B

Yes Fatbloke there was no boom, only serious over borrowing and a splurg on public services the country could not afford that passed as economic growth. Hope you remember to tell the Ed's not to repeat the mistake the next time you see them and that the only way forward is to cut public spending so we can live within our means.

As for the SNP. Just more politicians who are afraid to address the issues arising from an oversized and unproductive civil service.

Peter A Bell

"Most unionists believe the figures don’t stack up on an independent Scotland..."

This is back to front. Most people who believe Scotland is "too wee, too poor and too stupid" to have the same status as other nations are unionists. Unionists are those who arrogantly assert, without feeling the need to offer any rational justification, that the people of Scotland are less worthy and less capable than the people of any other nation.

Why would we want to remain in a supposedly "equal" union with those who regard us with such haughty contempt?

I S

As the great Fred Goodwin used to pen on reports which displeased him - 'PPS'.
'Pish, pure pish'.

Steve

It won't be long before Alex Massie is writing that this article is a pile of crap.

daniel maris

Well Fraser at least you understand that if you want to appeal to the hearts and minds of the Scotch, you appeal to their wallets... :)

John

So Salmond is proposing to use sterling whether the Bank of England likes it or not! Apart from it being the Bank of ENGLAND he intends to use, hardly the stuff of Scottish independence I would have thought, this policy is not sustainable and invites derision. The 3 percent bit is additional ammunition for the unionists and they have two and a half years to pull Salmond to bits over this.
It is now becoming important For England that we get rid of Scotland at the earliest opportunity ,including the Barnett adjusted portion of British national debt they can take away. Salmond's success is an English national objective and his clowning about is beginning to worry me.

Nicholas

"Why would we want to remain in a supposedly "equal" union with those who regard us with such haughty contempt?"

Why would we want to remain in a supposedly "equal" union with those who regard us with such resentful contempt?

It takes two to Tango.

MilkSnatcher

Pity - the one reason for the English to support Scottish independence, namely the prospect of tax competition between England and Scotland - has sailed doon the Clyde. Mind you, it was ne'er goin' tae happ'n.

RKing

I wonder if Salmond will put this in his manifesto...
i.e. his financial adviser - Gordon Brown the man who saved the world and put an end to boom and bust. (well technically he did as its all bust now and in the forseeable future).
Fred Goodwin as head of the Bank of Scotland.

Barry

The Scottish budget would have to be balanced by protection money from England to the Scottish Defence Force. There is no way that nation of bedwetters could defend the southern coast of these islands, so naturally we would have that responsibility even after independence

Fergus Pickering

Good Heavens, Barry, when have the Scots won a battle? There was a little skirmish at Bannockburn, but since then? And what has bedwetting got to do with it. Scots of the lower class are rowdy in bars, that's about it.

David Ossitt

Peter A Bell.

Asks,

“Why would we want to remain in a supposedly "equal" union with those who regard us with such haughty contempt?”

Hello Peter well for one thing the supposedly equal union is no such thing, it is biased in favour of the Scots, who are blessed with the proceeds of the Barnett Formula, the Scots can suck more from the tit of public finance.

And for another Scotland has a massive disproportionate representation in parliament at Westminster, to the great disadvantage of the English, nothing equal here, rather yet again a strong bias in favour of the Scots.

Scotland has a population of approximately 5.2 million slightly less than the County of Yorkshire and Humberside but unlike Gods own county, Scotland has a parliament whilst Yorkshire and England do not, just another example of this one way bias.

It is said that Alex Salmond does not want a yes vote to any referenda but would prefer and is actually working toward full fiscal autonomy, sometimes referred to as devolution max.

This would allow Scotland all the benefits of being in the union whilst having almost all of the privileges of full independence. A bit like having your cake etcetera.

It is not that we the English regard Scotland and the Scots; in your words “with such haughty contempt” it is more that we are tired of the continual sniping and nastiness that emanates like a foul penurious l stench from Holyrood home of the Scottish parliament.

Pàrlamaid na h-Alba, for heavens sake such pretentiousness.

It is my belief that England should hold a referendum for the English with a yes/no question on whether to cancel the union with Scotland, I suspect that this would have Alex Salmond defecating in his trousers.

Barry

Oh come now, Fergus, simmer down. It's well known that without the Scots and the Gurkhas, the UK would have a military to rival Italy's. From Victoria Crosses awarded to membership of the SAS, Scots have shown themselves to rise well above the average

E Hart

Do you know anything about economics at all? This piece is so flawed on so many levels it should be framed.

Barry

"And what has bedwetting got to do with it"

Of course there is nothing wrong with either your bedwetting or your effeminate culture. I was simply suggesting a mutually beneficial way of maintaining the Scottish budget whilst protecting England's borders

Peter A Bell

David Ossitt
March 5th, 2012 12:23pm

The xenophobic force is strong with you, little one!

It seems that there is not one British nationalist myth that you haven't taken and polished nicely.

Why is it, I wonder, that English people - at least to the extent that they are represented in places like this - so abysmally fail to comprehend Scotland's civic nationalism and almost without exception end up ranting like some BNP knuckle-dragger. It seems to be all but impossible to find a single Englander who understands, for example, that Gordon Brown is not Scottish, he's British. But dullards dahn sahff still cling to the silly notion that the likes of Brown speak and act on Scotland's behalf. It's all a bit sad, really.

As is the pathetic whingeing of those who resent Scotland's success in securing constitutional but can't be bothered making the effort to campaign on their own account. They'd much rather piggy-back on the decades of effort that it took to secure even the marginally better settlement that we have obtained.

And then there's the parochialism! Usually associated with those who think the world ends at Watford, it seems this intellectually debilitating condition is not unknown in Yorkshire. What manner of sad and pathetic creature complains so bitterly just because a country dares to use a language other than English?

Barry

Peter, please do not taunt the neighbours. It is unbecoming. I am proud we can help by sending them Prime Ministers, Chancellors, a generous share in our wealth and afford them military protection to let them sleep at night.

You must remember, although we enjoy a more representative parliament, more discretion over spending and a fully informed and debated referendum in 2014- our brothers and sisters down south do not.

That is not their way. The last local parliament in England was rejected in a referendum, much like the perfectly sensible reform of the Westminster voting system last year. They are a weak and voiceless people by choice. Do not judge them

David Ossitt

Peter A Bell

David Ossitt

“The xenophobic force is strong with you, little one!”

A typical and to be expected left wing comment accusing ‘xenophobia’ where there is none and the by now boring silly ploy of trying to belittle in this case by the use of the term ‘little one’.

All of the facts in my post are easily verified as true, my opinions are my own and so are can be neither true or false.

You claim that the sad bad mad Gordon is not Scottish, but British, he was born in Scotland to Scottish parents, how can you (though I can understanding your wish to) deny this buffoon his birthright?

As to a language would that be Scots or Scottish Gaelic? Either way neither are much use in a modern world.

And then there's the parochialism! You write.

Can you not see have you not realised that parochialism is meat and drink to the Scottish Nationalists.

Peninsula

There's much more important things for you lot down south to worry about.

Prince Harry's boat broke down, for a start.

Isn't he wonderful! So dashing in his lovely white uniform.

Forelock tugging weirdos.

Dimoto

David Ossitt -

The purpose of the Nat trolls on here is clear - to sow hate, mistrust and disunion.

But what is your purpose exactly ?

L.W

In the article the writer states a snide remark about Scotland being bailed out in 1707. WRONG! Scotland was sold out by greedy landowners who had lost THEIR money in the Darrian Project. They lost money and sold a nation WOW!
They ran like rats after signing as the population wanted to hang them. A betrayal it surely was and decidedly against the wishes of the people.

One other comment, it is repeated through the posts about the BANK OF ENGLAND, yes it is called that, but is actually the BANK OF THE UNITED KINGDOM, and started by a Scot incidentally. Scotland own approx 8% of it as paid for by our taxes.

L.W

If, some of readers would like some actual facts about Scotland relationship with the Westminster Governments the please google the Independent Newspaper report on the "McCrone Report". If you have not read this yet I urge you to do so. Then ask yourself what if this were against England? This would perhaps make you understand just why Scots are seeking Independence it is certainly not an equal partnership. If things were equal, then the idea of Independence would never have arisen.

Theuniondivvie

'thanks to a letter unearthed by Channel 4’s Faisal Islam, that Alex Salmond urged Fred the Shred to do the ABN Amro deal than sank RBS.'

Ah, a bloated shoogly thesis based round a two-and-half line letter that states uncontroversially that it's in Scottish interests that RBS do well, proffers whatever vestigial assistance the SG is capable of and wishes Goodwin/RBS luck with the bid. I look forward to a note being unearthed from Salmond to the colonel of a Scottish regiment about to embark for Iraq wishing them well; it will be incontrovertible proof that Salmond is entirely to blame for that fiasco.

Jenkins

News just in! News articles are meant to be OBJECTIVE not SUBJECTIVE. If you would like to start a blog Fraser Nelson, then do feel free. There you can post any and all of your own opinions.

Margaret Joyce McFarlane

It seems to me that there is no reason why an organised, honest, disciplined government that does not squirrel away debt in the form of PPP or other kinds of trickery of which Brown was master and Cameron is an advanced graduate, should not have a manageable debt. Salmond is neither a history graduate nor a PPE man, he is an economist. In spite of independence not being top choice in Scotland, he got elected last year with an overall majority basically for being a good administrator. Just a few pointers to jaded readers (and authors in this case) to what really could be good news for the whole of the UK, otherwise sadly lacking these days.

Robert Peffers

Great article - what a pity it's just tosh and misinformation. In the first place the Union was not a bail-out it was a sell-out. "The English Navigation Acts", were used to bankrupt Scotland. At the signing England had massive national debts, (after wars all over Europe), and Scotland, although broke had no debt. Then the Treaty made Sterling the UK currency. Only England & Scotland signed the treaty because the Crown of England, Wales & Ireland were sovereign and all under English law. The Scottish crown is not sovereign so had been independent for 103 years and had their owm law & parliament. Furthermore, the Bank Of England isn't. It was nationalised in 1946 as the UK bank and the UK was formed by only two Signatiries to Union. Then the State bank was made a UK owned but independent company by Gordon Brown in 1998. So Parliament no longer sets interest rates. So the both the bank, the currency are part owned by Scotland.

Bill McLean

More absolute claptrap from this clown who is supposed to provide objective analysis for those of us less privileged than he. This magazine is not a playground for his subjective assessments - yet!

R Smith

Oh dear, Fraser Nelson that well known British Nationalist, cannot seem to speak without exposing his fawning, forelock tugging, cringe for all of Scotland to see.

I really thought that the british Nationalists would have progressed by now from silly remarks about the union of 1707 - there was no bail out, but lots of bribery, and Scotland wasn't bankrupt.

Nevertheless, this British Nationalist nonsense continues to get re spun on a very regular basis by the likes of Fraser Nelson.

The rest of the article after the treaty of union part, is frankly infantile, dressed up as pseudo economic analysis.

England should be happy for Scotland, that it now wants to take its rightful place on the world stage. Scotland wants to take control of its own affairs, instead of scurrying to London to get decisions made. Scotland is charting a positive future free of London rule, and it is only regrettable that british Nationalists cannot be happy too.

England needs to wake up to the fact that the world is changing, Scotland has moved on, and the union between Scotland and England will never be the same again. Maybe it's time for England, and its coterie of British Nationalists like Fraser Nelson to grow up too.

Robert Peffers

Seems to be the boot is upon the other foot. The Nationalism here cuts three ways. The "Little Englanders", a real toxic set of ignoramouses, The BritNats, far more narrow nationalist than the Scottish Nationalists and the Scots seem more set on economic and political things than hate or disgust of others. By the way - the "N", in SNP stands for, "National", not, "Nationalist", and furthermore, there are at least 3 parties in Scotland that have independence as a basic theme. The SNP has hundreds of English Born members and at least 6 MPs, MSPs or MEP who are English born. The party stands for, "The People of Scotland", of any colour, creed, country of origin or ethnic background. Any one guilty of hate of others gets expelled from the party.

seagetagrip

The banks in question were no more Scottish than maypoles! They were the property of City of London investors and greedy ones at that. When Alec Salmond made his support known re Ambro he was immediately "put in his place" by Brown who reminded him that RBS was a BRITISH bank!
Re the so called Bank of England. It was nationalised in 1947 or thereabouts and should have been renamed the Bank of Britain.
When we depart in 2014 we will no doubt take our 10% with us!

R Smith

In reply to David Ossitt,

Quote

"Pàrlamaid na h-Alba, for heavens sake such pretentiousness."

Seriously tell me what on earth is pretentious about having the name of the Scottish parliament in Gaelic, an official Scottish language?

seagetagrip

"A Nation of Bed Wetters" I think you said?
The same who provided the 51st Highland Division to guard the perimeter at Dunkirk while rest swam out to their wee boats.
What a shower some of you are!

Richard McHarg

Great post, Robert Peffer, and spot on factually.

There are still too many folk in England that are utterly clueless as to all this, though, to be fair, if their equally clueless journalists keep peddling this rubbish, it is easy to understand why.

Scotland is wealthier than England. International statistics confirm it. England is deluded re its own economic invincibility. You really must waken up.

Sterling and The Bank of England don't belong to England; they belong to the UK, which includes Scotland. It is our currency and our central bank too.

Economic independence comes from making our own decisions in our own capital city, but I appreciate your concern for our future well-being. Don't worry about us. We'll be fine. Really, we will. You guys just worry about yourselves.

Ron

"We already know, thanks to a letter unearthed by Channel 4’s Faisal Islam"... No. It was reported mainstream in Scotland back in mid-2010. And did zero. You are writing a Scottish item through London goggles.

Herbert Thornton

It seems to me that an independent Scotland would be as free to use the Pound as some South American countries - and for that matter Zimbabwe - have been known to use the American dollar - the point being that none of them can have any power to create more of it.

Or am I overlooking something?

David Ossitt

Robert Peffers.

“By the way - the "N", in SNP stands for, "National", not, "Nationalist"”

As it does in the BNP, British National Party and did in the National Socialist Party (Nasi).

Is a national party only respectable if it is Scottish or Welsh?

Richard McHarg

Re David Osset's comment about the 'national' element of a party's name; what could you possibly be inferring?

Are you possibly suggesting some racist element to Scottish and Welsh nationalism?

You barely disguise your ignorance, Old Chap! If you had ever been to a SNP conference, you'd see many colours and hear many accents, including many English ones. Our nationalism is the civic variety. We abhor the racism of the BNP. Our politicians won't even share a platform with them in debate.

Our nationalism exists to free our country from a bigger, imperialist-minded and openly antagonistic neighbour. Our nationalism is about self-determination for all the people of Scotland.

One question for everyone! What form of nationalism has caused more death and suffering across the world: Scottish nationalism or British nationalism? When has a SNP leader ordered troops into battle?

DCC

Sadly a childish and provocative article. Especially with the 1707 reference. Further mud stirring by a Unionist supporter.

When will they see that this only supports the case for Independence.

Scare stories, more gloom and doom. Independence is not based on Salmond alone, but on the views of the people of Scotland.

Furthermore the Unionist have been saying that the Independence debate is destabilising, but it is their negativity that does Scotland and it's image a disservice.

Todays news of the locating of the Green Bank to Edinburgh is a cynical and panicked attempt to manipulate public opinion. So when Independence does happen what will they want to do with the bank, bring it back to London.

Scotland can thrive on it's own two feet and so it should do, without interfering from a UK government that cares little for it.

The one thing that is important to remember with a disagreement between people is to always let those that are at fault save face. When the Scots signed the 1707 Act, it was during a different during a different age, and so now to endeavour to rake it up in an article is to seek to humiliate the nation. So when Independence comes the Scots will find it rather hard to be supportive of the RUK when they have been so rude, condescending, and manipulative over the last few years.