Could Brown offer a referendum?

bt

Not see through it? Fat chance. Cynicism about politicians and political motives has become second nature.

Mind you, if he offered a referendum and a General Election on the same day.....

john miller

No chance. Completely and utterly out of character for Brown. Pass some thinking out to the people - won't even occur to him. If he reads the words he won't understand them.

And if this has been a couple of good weeks - even relatively - I think you are missing what many ordinary folk are saying about David Davis. the Bottler bottles another election. If the media chose to run with it they could crucify Brown for the coward he is.

Fergus Pickering

1. He won't do it
2. He won't do it.
3. He won't do it.

Mike, Brighton

It would show unplumbed depths of political courage by Brown. Old dogs n' new tricks, the chance of him grasping the mettle and allowing a referendum in the face of EU opposition is precisely zero.

Elizabeth

Instead of damning DD's courageous stand with faint praise David Cameron should be lining up a willing MP to do a Davis on the question of the promised referendum on Lisbon.
Any takers.
Two By elections allowing the English to finally voice a view and forcing Labour onto the defensive in both places.
Of course it won't happen because Cameron and his clique are about as trustworthy on Europe as they are on civil liberties - about a three out of ten - on a good day.
I suspect DD knew this and realised that continuing as Shadow Home Sec was a waste of time as he felt genuinely on the issue.
Just look at the disgraceful attitude of the Tories to DD's principled stand. Michael Heseltine and Michael Brown showed their true colours last night. Not a pretty sight!
If there are rumours of splits then Cameron should be answering the question. It is DD who is following in the steps of the real conservative party. Good for him.

Tiberius

Quite agree - Brown won't do it.

But even if he did, it would only serve to reinforce the view that he is a ditherer and has his steering wheel stuck on full lock.

Max

Brown has already told Sarkozy he's going to ratify. That should tell you all there is to know about our chances of a referendum.

And yes, it would be a sensible thing to do.

Which is why he won't do it.

Max

roger rowan

Despite what one reads from the MSM and the Biased broadcasting Corperation,it seems reading the blogs most people support DD's principaled gesture and Cameron should come of the fence and strongly support him.With regards the Irish vote Cameron should now state he will give the people a referendum and stand by the result come what may if he wins the next election otherwise what is the point of the Conservative Party its just Blair mk2.

Tina

If Brown offered us a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and with the current state of the Tory party, I will vote Labour again. I imagine a lot of voters would be returning to the Labour fold. They are tough on terror and this would be the icing on the cake.

Jo

First glance would suggest Brown won't take the risk but he has been proved right on the strategy over 42 days. It's the Tories who are now in a mess not Labour. All those underestimating Brown might just have egg on their face.

Peter Buss

I'n getting "pigsick" of the obssessive Anti Cameron comments. The guy has just spoken articulately,passinately and intelligently on this matter. Yes of course we should have a referendum - but unlike some on here there truly is more to life than banging on about Europe and crucifying anyone else who doesn't share that same obssession!
As for DD - lets wait for the next Polls.If the Tory lead has been cut-or even evaporated then I shall know who to blame for allowing Brown to get off the canvass upon which Cameron had so effectively dumped him.

Dave B

I think Jack Straw might call for a referendum, or declare Lisbon dead, to polish up his contender status.

Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle

Wouldn't that be wonderful? and could turn Gordo's fortunes around (REALLY listening etc).
Unfortunately (or fortunately for sanity in this country) Gordo is incapable of this sort of allowing-the-proles-some-sort-of-say-in-the-running-of-the-country politics.
Who was it who kept telling us that this man had a super intellect? He is a fool.

Commondog

Has anyone in Brussels bothered to tell us what is so bloody fantastic about the planned dismantling of the national character of every country within Europe?

Zurich is Bilbao is Prague is Sheffield is Naples; so that all places are subsumed.

And yet the EU takes every opportunity to insist on what?

Diversity that's what.

salieri

The very idea of Brown now 'offering' a referendem is preposterous. Even he is not so stupid as to refuse one when it matters and then say he is 'listening' when it doesn't.

Max Kaye

Brown never does the right thing.

Besides, whilst he's complaining about David Davis 'wasting public money' on a by-election (estimates £80,000), Brown is proposing to continue the costly and pointless process of ratification of a Treaty which is no more.

TrevorH

"a couple of good weeks for Labour" ... this is risible (err, 37 defections in a key vote?) .... but not half as risible as your referendum proposal which is taken straight out of the ToyTown political playbook.

DDs actions have indeed come as a surprise and the Irish result is a pleasant shock, but does that mean that commentators have to run round like headless chickens?

Pete, Scotland

I think that David Davis is to the Labour Party what Martin Bell was to the Tories.

He has tapped into a huge under current of unvoiced anger at this current Government and the way it is running things.

If David Cameron has any sense he will embrace Davis and build on his principles.

Daniel Hendy

I think we all need to stand opposite parlaiment and show Brown two fingers. any takers?

Fergus Pickering

Jo, what strategy over 42 days? You mean bribery, don't you? And Tina, Brown isn't tough on anything. He's what my daughters would call a great big woose.

Chaz

Commondog,

Zurich? Here in Switzerland we have the most democratic model seen in any nation state.

Back on topic.

Cameron has the opportunity to remove any division that might exists between himself and DD by killing the treaty dead and thus making the EU a non issue in DD's campaign, already having dealt with it.

How should Cameron deal with the EU treaty? I have seen elsewhere that the treaty is invalid if ALL members don't sign it. Ireland's no vote means the treaty is legally dead. Brown signing it is pointless, it has no legal existence without all signatures, that is in the treaty.

Pete

Tina,

Labour tough on terror, please, don't be silly.

Pete Hoskin

TrevorH: you're taking my words a little too seriously here. By no means are they a "proposal" - just an innocent bit of Friday evening speculation. I still think it's 99.999999% certain that Brown won't call a referendum.

And I did qualify the "a couple of good weeks for Labour" statement...

John Howson

I think Pete from Scotland is absolutely right. David Davis is clearly tapping into popular opinion in a way that the commentators cannot - which is why so many of them have sneeringly dismissed his remarkable move. (Gordon Brown just continues to show how hopelessly out of touch he is.)

This development will be a huge and necessary test for Cameron. Just the kind of steep learning curve he needs to follow if he is to be Prime Minister in two years from now, and just the kind of event during which he needs to demonstrate that he really has the potential to be a statesman.

Petulant Perry

But the Supreme & Beloved Leader IS arrogant!

And consider the punishment that would be meted out to those who dared to thwart his will. Remember, he and Mz. Pru know all our names, - and where we live!

Frank Pulley

I just fell about watching Brown solemnly describe Davis's resignation as a "stunt that has turned into a farce". He must read this blog as that is how many have described his 42 day scam for the past two weeks.

Indeed - two stunts in opposition to one another. And you know how fond I am of cockney rhyming slang.

Frank Pulley

I just fell about watching Brown solemnly describe Davis's resignation as a "stunt that has turned into a farce". He must read this blog as that is how many have described his 42 day scam for the past two weeks.

Indeed - two stunts in opposition to one another. And you know how fond I am of cockney rhyming slang.

Herbert Thornton

bt's idea of a referendum and a general election on the same day should appeal immensely to both Labour and the Tories, because it at the very least would give them breathing space.

A 'Yes' vote would answer the prayers of both. A 'No' vote on the other hand would be treated as a 'call to negotiate better terms'.

The only thing that will extricate Britain from the EEC is a 'No' vote - combined with the election of the BNP.

Commondog

Chaz.

No slight whatever on Zurich or its democratic credentials - can't see how you would take it that way. It looks truly lovely.

I can see you getting uppity about being put in the same class as Sheffield, right enough. Not my doing, I merely make the observation.

mitch

Gordon doesn't like votes, being a control freak or just a freak means he will plough on spewing tractor production stats left and right.

Robert Carmichael.

Brown could try to sell the British public the Swiss model which involves direct democracy (Referenda) and has kept their electorate very amenable to political persuasion. However, their voters will not entertain the EU Constitution under any heading, so it looks like they and the Irish have the brains in Europe.

David C

Please understand the Lisbon Constitreaty is not dead. The EU will fob off the people of Europe with words, fashioned for each country, to the effect that the Irish didn't really mean to vote NO.
The Irish, in turn, will have some money and warm words thrown in their direction. Then they will undergo a massive re-education programme and be asked to approve the constitution (possibly under another name) at a later date.
The EU project is unstoppable. It will fail (at cataclysmic cost) some time in the future because of its own inherent contradictions.
No leader in Europe will put an end to this sick animal, because to do so would earn the wrath of the other leaders and the blame for the mess that would ensue. Who would want to incur the opprobrium of History books for millennia to follow (I was going to put ‘the risk of incurring’ but there is no risk, only certainty)
Barroso has described the EU as an Empire. There is talk of a ‘United States of Europe’ but no substance behind it.
Unlike the UK, Europe has not abandoned the idea of Empire: the idea that power can be clawed together at some central point and vast tracts of land and huge populations can be ruled from one place.
To create this Empire, the EU has abandoned the concept of democracy. No group of people can be allowed to stand in the way of the Empire. Welcome to the post-democratic age.
What the EU has set aside is the idea that Empire is founded on Force (I will not say that the EU has abandoned the use of force because of new measures in the Constitreaty concerning the EU army and police force).
To eliminate natural stresses within the Empire, people will find their customs and history, national boundaries, political institutions and aspirations gradually eroded and usurped in the effort to make us all more alike – one people. The EU designers regard the idea of the nation state as obsolete as we regard the idea of a City State.
We look across the channel and see neighbours. The EU wants us to see kin.
Sometime in the future, our children are going to pay the price for this madness.

I feel sick.

Kevin Lohse

I was involved in anti-terrorist activities for 18 years, and I have no idea how 42 days detention is going to make anyone "safer". The idea that a longer detention period will magically reduce the chances of a successful terrorist atrocity is, quite frankly, fairydust. This is the government whose policy of bringing peace to Northern Ireland can be summarised as " if we give you this, will you stop hitting us", the style of a timid lad up against the school bully. If 9/11 had not brought home to the Irish/American community exactly what they were supporting the IRA to do, The political wing of the IRA, Seinn Fein, would still be extracting concessions from This cowardly administration. If, instead of ejecting 80-year-old pensioners from party conferences, Labour had used the Anti-terrorist acts to eject Islamic fundamentalist agitators masquerading as scholars and teachers from the land, one would be more likely to accept the Labour knew what they were up to. the Labour spin of "toughness" hides the fact that the government is more interested in (a) self protection and (b) gaining populist votes from a public starved of unbiased information about the mechanics of terrorist activity and (c) playing party politics with the nation's security. If anyone reading this blog would like to understand how a terrorist thinks and why they carry out such activities would do well to read "Voices Of Terror", an anthology of manifesto of writings and manuals of al quaeda (or alky aida), hamas and other terrorists edited by Walter Laqueur, published by Reed press and available through Amazon online. Or you can pull the bedclothes over your heads and in the sure knowledge Daddy Brown will save you.

Frank Pulley

Kevin Lohse

Yours is the voice of experience, reason and common sense. In fact can you envisage any scenario that would require anyone being banged up for more than a fortnight without being charged? Why arrest anyone without evidence? Surely if information is received or enquiries reveal that any person or persons are involved in a conspiracy to murder and maim anyone in this country, it is criminally irresponsible to strike before evidence is available (a) to nail the conspiracy before the act, or (b ) to catch them about to perpetrate it, in flagrante delicto. Fishing expeditions are not only unlawful for police officers; they are often unlawful for fisherman these days since our ancient rights were ceded to Yurrup.

'Intelligence' is useless unless it is professionally collected, evaluated, collated, analysed and then disseminated via executive consideration for action, arrest and prosecution. Carried out and coordinated if necessary with other international agencies, the question of detention without charge for excessive periods becomes unnecessary. This is what Davis, as Shadow Home Secretary, should have been shouting to the rooftops. He has hardly laid a finger on Smudger the Fudger, who is as thick as seventeen lavatory seats and merely parroting political expediency to save the Govan Gargoyle's ass. What makes anyone believe he will be any more effective or articulate as a Tory renegade? He would have been Home Secretary himself in about two years, had he played his hand right. What he has now done detracts from, rather than intensifies the War on Brown, which is a higher priority in my book than the War on Terror, because unless we get rid of this egregious band of ghastly Gramscian gurus, we will be subsumed into Eurabia in short order and Islamism will have won anyway, regardless of thwarted terror plots.

What I suspect is that he realised that, should the Tories win the next election, he may have been shit-canned from the cabinet anyway. His irrational action reeks of chagrin at losing to Cameron in the party leadership race last year, given Shado Home Sec. as a consolation prize, but being kept out of the loop de facto.

I think he was a decent man before bitterness set in; I wish he had had the equipment to win because in general I like him, but I'm afraid he's a loser because he lacks political smarts and the authority and presence required in a leader. Petulance masquerading as principle will soon lose its disguise. He is right to draw attention to the erosion of privacy and freedoms, but he is going about it in the wrong way and adding yet another political stunt to many that have been perpetrated by this appalling Administration, when gravitas and good governance has never been more necessary. What better soapbox could he have had than that of Shadow Home Secretary? He just didn’t know how to use it to best advantage.

It is a sad story really, because having heard Cameron’s speech in the City this morning, and also read Fraser Nelson’s piece in the Speccie today about the Blair advisers being invited into the Cameron camp, my blood runs cold. I’m even more certain that Davis should have remained in the cabinet to fight what appears to be nascent NuBlairism; the ghost of Gramsci in Tory disguise looms even larger.