CoffeeHousers' Wall, 23 June - 29 June

Ted Tedford

Good luck keeping out the swearing, the self-promoting links from tin-foil-hat-wearing websites, and anarchists trying to screw eberything up by posting entire books.

Tim Hedges

I don't know if this is the wall but my comment is: why didn't I get my teashirt, Hoskin? Since this is a brilliant comment can I have a bottle of bubbly too?

London Calling

...LONDON CALLING WAS ERE...

@PH:Can we send cartoons?

Patrick, London

OK then - as a starting proposal I'd like you post more about energy policy.

The MSM seem to focus on the price of petrol and domestic gas. For me the issue is that without some major effort soon we will actually run short of electricity or transport fuels.

Oil is going to stay expensive. Brown's trip to Saudi is just pissing into the wind. We import oil from regimes that hate us. Energy security is one strategic weakness that could actually bring down a modern developed economy that failed to plan properly.

The Labour party clearly has no agenda to make any meaningful difference to the amount of crude we need to import or to generating power (a few windmills won't come close).

I'm fearful that the Conservatives will start wittering on again about carbon emissions rather than energy security. Poll after poll has shown that most Brits are OK with the concept of a bit of global warming - or at least don't see the result of global warming in anything like the apocalyptic terms that the greenies like to portray. If the lights start going out or road fuels become unaffordable then all other politics will become secondary.

The airlines' large volume business model is already dying with oil at $140 / barrel. What risk to our whole economic model?

I want energy security and a policy that puts the UK back in control of its own energy destiny.

For me that means electricity coming much more from nuclear and also some renewables. It also means that we must use other feedstocks apart from oil to process into transport fuels.

I find the energy debate almost always descends into 'green' issues and / or a belief that we have no freedom to make our own long term decisions.

Napoleon

Good idea...

Tiberius

Indeed, Ted; this will be a full-time job for a moderator, but it is a welcome development that we can now initiate topics.

Pete Hoskin

Tim: do you the prize for the Nick Clegg Q&A? I sent those out ages ago - didn't hear from you via e-mail, though. Just contact me on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll get another sent out.

London Calling: by all means. Just fire me an e-mail with attachments.

Chris

I'd be very interested in any further light on the Observer article on John McCain from this sunday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008

To use a phrase beloved of Obama 'this isn't the John McCain I know'. Any comments on the veracity of the article / the writer. THe intent seems to be to wilfully bend all kinds of factors to come up with the worst possible portrait. I notice that (for example)in the article an alleged fight between McCain and Strom Thurmond is cited. This is used to illustrate McCain's alleged loss of control - but the fact of Thurmond's long standing racism isn't mentioned at all.

It looks like a scattergun smear job - any comments?

Faceless Bureaucrat

Patrick, London [2.02pm]

Agree with you on the Energy/Fuel issue, but I believe the real Elephant in the Room here is FOOD...
We can get by with having to get around by bicycle and horse and cart or even (horror of horrors)walking and if push comes to shove, we can light our homes with candlelight, but it is only when we realise that we now import around 80% of the food we eat in the UK that it dawns on us that if you want to bring this country down fast, simply turn-off the the food shipments. In theory, we could last indefinitely without fuel to run our cars or power stations - but we wouldn't last a week once the food ran out and the riots started. This 'Achilles Heel' is not a recent manifestation in this country - an old former MoD 'Mandarin' of my aquaintence once told me that during the Falklands War, there was panic in Whitehall as the Government of the day realised that because of the amount of food needed to supply our service personnel during that conflict, there was only 20 days food supply left in the entire country. The numbers of citizens in the UK is now much larger than it was then - add that to the fact that the supply demands of the wars in Iraq and Afgahnistan far outstrip those of the Falklands conflict, plus the amount of UK domestic food production lost through Farmers forced out of business over the last 20 years and the amount of food-producing land gobbled up for housing and you begin to realise that high fuel prices, whilst a major problem, is not necessarily the issue that will tip the UK over the edge. If we cannot feed ourselves, then everything else is irrelevant - the writing is on the (CoffeeHousers') Wall...

Napoleon

It would be nice if our comments did not need to be moderated, but I know it's impossible not to be...

Rock Mussellman

Chris: I think your initial reaction looks correct. This is the journalistic equivalent of those tedious Panorama editions where, in the absence of anything interesting, such as evidence, the reporter talks in a low voice, and there's 'chilling' music playing, and everything goes into grainy black and white.

McCain talks to lobbyists!! He tries to stifle criticism!! He doesn't agree with me on abortion or environmentalism!! So he must be a scary fundamentalist with a hidden agenda!!

Pete Hoskin

Patrick: Good point on energy - we'll try and get more stuff up.

In the meantime, do check out Fraser's post from last week, if you haven't already:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/781291/the-truth-behind-the-highcost-of-living.thtml

And I've written on wind farming in the past:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/486786/wind-power-so-much-hot-air.thtml

Gibbo

What is a tin-foil-hat wearing website? This idiom hasn't reached me yet. Is a tin foil hat a good thing or a bad thing? I like to use these new phrases so I can sound up to the minute, but I don't want to cause offence. Thanks.

Herbert Thornton

Gibbo's question makes me ask a similar one - arising from the Unkind Comparisons blog.

So I ask - what does Social Mobility mean?

Is social mobility purely a matter of how much your income is?

Or is it more a matter of a situation that's like the Indian Caste system, where, for example - Bullingdon equates with Brahmin and being a member of the BNP equates with Untouchable?

Lance Diatessaron

Gibbo: I think Ted means the people who compile the websites wear tin-foil hats to stop the CIA or NSA reading their brains.

On a similar note, can anyone tell me why "I know where you are on the radar, sunshine" is an unacceptable phrase when used by a Boris Johnson aide to a race relations activist?

Verity

Lance Diatessaron - Good question. What was so meretricious about this quote, which actually, I rather like and will using at the first opportunity. But it would useful to know what it means first.

TGF UKIP

Good job I'm not paranoid and while I understand the libel bit, why can't we have rather more swearing and offence to common decency. Wot a po-faced lot you Speccie types are compared with Guido.

Meanwhile, Patrick is spot on - energy should be a massive subject and it is one The Speccie never touches neither in the mag nor in Coffee House. I have always assumed it's because they know Dave is talking tosh but as his fanzine it could never be part of Speccie editorial policy to expose this.

There is, though, one massive four letter word missing from your post, Patrick - COAL.

Whenever energy policy is ever discussed in this country, or in the EU for that matter, it is always in the context of oil, gas, nuclear and renewables yet the fuel of the world is undeniably coal and coal burn is growing massively.

We hear constantly about the Chinese opening one new coal power station per week but coal's growth is far wider than that. While world coal production has seen a 78% increase over the past 25 years it is still expected to grow by a further 40% to reach 7,000 Mt by 2030.

Which takes us back to the UK. As you rightly say Patrick "Poll after poll has shown that most Brits are ok with the concept of a bit of global warming - or at least don't see the results of global warming in anything like the apocalyptic terms the greenies like to portray." Quite so, and who is more uber "greenie" than the Speccie's beloved Dave. And to put it into context, two factors - the UK produces less than 3% of the worlds supposedly harmful emissions and much more importantly we really are heading for an absolute energy catastrophe c 2015-2020 with energy rationing most certainly on the cards.

It is not just our nuclear stations which are ageing fast to being completely past it but so are our coal stations, none of which have been built for over thirty years. While this Government have been more than useless with energy ministers being changed more often than underpants (and their sole function seeming to be to make vacuous speeches on renewables and get themselves photographed blacked up with mining gear on to please the Party faithful) nothing has been done to even begin to address this looming crisis until the recent gentle nudge towards nuclear.

And where are The Speccie's beloved Cameron Tories on this? Well, John Hutton did give very tentative approval to a new coal powered station at Kingsnorth in Kent recently only for it to be immediately opposed by Sweetie Duncan (and here I must remember Peter's injunctions about libellous comments.) Once again, putting it into context, I set out below coal's average place in UK electricity generating over the three years 05,06,07

Coal 37%
Gas 35%
Nuclear 19%
Oil, hydro & renews. 9%

Now, I should add here that although this country has massive reserves of coal underground,( there is a huge untapped coalfield under Oxon!!!!) less than half the power station burn is home produced. Most comes in, to vast damage to our balance of payments, from Russia, Poland, S. Africa etc. But that is a different story.

But at this point, let's bring in Dave, for in his speech of 16th June "The choice isn't between economy and environment" he actually not only mentions coal but positively gushes over it. But of course it's only in the context of carbon capture and storage. Here, of course, with the typical PR man's combination of gloss and omission, verging on mendacity, he bangs on about California and Schwarzenegger and ignores the decades for development and consumer cost. (The only figure I've seen is an extra 25% on electricity charges - have a referendum on that Dave.)

Here, though, I'm drawing a line even though I haven't even mentioned electricity generated from abandoned mine methane (23 times more harmful than CO2) This is a subject which should be properly covered in the magazine by a real expert. There should also be an authentic challenge to the whole Cameron green obsession by someone authentic and heavy weight. But will it happen? Well perhaps when The Speccie gets a new editor.

I must also declare an interest as a long time investor in UK Coal PLC and Alkane Energy PLC but please don't imagine that UK Coal or its shareholders are itching to develop new coalfields - they most certainly ain't. With Government and Opposition enegy policy such a green posturing mess who but an even bigger bunch of lunatics would?

James Forsyth

Folks, if you're looking for energy policy stuff, I've just posted on a rather neat idea of McCain's on Americano http://www.spectator.co.uk/americano/793851/want-to-win-and36300-million.thtml
TGF, Not to sound a touch defensive but I've frequently said that the Tories should learn from how McCain talks about the issue.

James Forsyth

Folks, If you're looking for energy policy stuff I've just posted on Americano on a rather neat idea of McCain's
http://www.spectator.co.uk/americano/793851/want-to-win-and36300-million.thtml
TGF: I think--and I;ve said a few times--that I think the way McCain talks about the issue is far superior to the way the Tories do.

Lance Diatessaron

Verity: It's baffling, isn't it? Is it 'radar'? Is it 'sunshine'?

There's a piece over at National Review today about allegedly racist 'code-words', and that some liberal types have said that various Republicans' use of the term 'elitist' of Mr Obama *actually* means 'arrogant', therefore 'uppity', which is of course racist.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTNmNjdmMTk3ZjNkYzQ2MjhmZDA3OGE2MDQyZmI3MmY=

Is this where we are heading?

TGF UKIP

A wall works because when you write summat on it, it appears instantly. I wote on The Speccie's "Wall" over two hours ago and it still ain't appeared. Or have I just been censored again even though I didn't even mention the Barclays.

DW

I want to hear more from people in the know about the fortunes of Labour in Scotland (and therefore the implications on the results of a General election).

TGF UKIP

"which means you'll be able to debate with each other more freely and extensively." It's now 11pm and the last comment posted by Verity was timed at 7.08pm. Some "wall", some debating forum!

Frank Pulley

As one who considers HM Secretary of State for the Home Office to be just about the most important job in government, I have been appalled at the succession of inappropriate holders of that office since Nulab came to power.

Jack “Johnny-head-in-clouds” Straw; David ‘Blind Pugh’ Blunkett’; Charles ‘Tourettes’ Clark’; Red John ‘ Bruiser’ Reid and the current incumbent Jacqui ‘Smudger the Fudger’ Smith are all prime examples of what a Home Secretary should not be.

So when Action Man Davis, waiting in the wings as the Shadow Home Secretary, recently bottled out and David Cameron shooed in Dominic Grieve, to take over the real job when Gordon Brown finally deigns to face the people and gets deservedly ousted, I thought – well! At least Grieve will bring some gravitas back into the Home Office and at last someone will make it ‘fit for purpose'. Not exactly dripping with charisma, he nevertheless carries about him an air of gravitas and I figured that his legal training should help him through the labyrinth of legislation that has emerged over the past ten years – most of which needs to be repealed.

Then it was all rudely shattered, when I opened the Sunday Times yesterday and read the emetic piece of puffery written by someone called Marie Woolf – truly a Grimm fairy tale of derring-do:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4187795.ece

What is going on here? Who fitted Marie up this steaming pile of bovine droppings? Grieve obviously sanctioned its publication, as he is depicted wearing a weasel grin, holding up his ‘wife’s engagement ring’ and a silver tankard, like Fagin the Fence offering for sale to a dodgy client his latest acquisition of a filched ‘gold and diamond groin, my dear, and a nice bit of tin … for you - two guineas and I’ll thrown in a silk snot-rag for good measure!”

Describing Grieve as a cross between Sherlock Holmes and Bert ‘The Old Grey Fox’ Wickstead, Woolf relates the tale of intrepid sleuthing made possible by his experience during his years as a legal strapper on ‘elf & safety! Read it all, it’s hilarious. You’ll note how he lets the police off the hook by emphasising that the police couldn’t have noticed the trail of blood leading all the way from his burgled gaff to the flat where the burglar lived, as it was night time! (best stay on the side of the boys in blue when you're likely to become Home Sec). Obviously the Home Office have withdrawn the Toc H lamps in the last round of economy cuts. Perhaps when Dominic takes over he’ll reissue them.

If St Rupe of Wogga-Wogga is now backing the Cameroons and has delegated his hacks to beef up the public relations for the Tories; then God help them if he turns again and really takes the piss. With a publicist like this Dom - who needs a satirist briefing against you?

Frank Pulley

Verity & Lance Diatessaron

I can trace the objection to that expression right back to its source. Bobbies once tended to use the familiar and friendly endearment "Sunshine" to all kids in the street in normal interface, when giving advice, or issuing mild reprimands. Most English working class kids were addressed occasionally by their parents in this way. After the post war influx of West Indians, eventually the Black Power chapter of the Gramscian counter-culture movement decided that this expression could be usefully denoted as a pejorative term when directed at West Indian youths (though how sunshine can ever be a negative thing defeats me) it was therefore banned from the official police lexicon as a 'racist' expression. This stupid prejudice has stuck. So that's it, me old Sunshine!

Pete Hoskin

TGF UKIP: Truth is, comments haven't been coming through - across the site - since yesterday evening.

The problem remains, but I've been able to go back through the system, track some of the missing ones down, and approve them manually. Hence why your comments on this thread have appeared.

I'll be in touch with our tech people from 9am, and will get it all sorted.

Patrick, London

TGF UKIP,

I fully agree on the issue of coal.

On energy security I think there are 2 key areas to resolve: electic power and transport fuels.

Electric power should rely alot more on diversified sources of feedstock.

We bury massive amounts of landfill waste - which with modern technology can just as esily be turned into clean power in a big way (go and look at the webiste of Covanta corp in the USA). I'd favour building a huge facility in the Thames estuary to burn London's trash and supply cheap electricity.

Nuclear must play a large role - and the issue here is simply to get moving or we risk another decade of talk and no construction.

And coal. It may not be the cleanest (but can be made to be with CO2 scrubbing) but it works.

non-PC Perry

I like the Wall idea, - but unless it works, it’s a waste of energy and ideas.

And, on energy, one expletive can save a lot of ‘nergy – which I guess might point to the success of Guido’s near instantaneous ‘Wall’.

The boy Cameron, the sales-rep for we-know-not-what, also saves energy. Haven’t noticed anything much in the way of productive opposition in ages. No need perhaps. The wind farm that is the HoC supplies all needs, and as Noo-Lying-Bores is in self-destruct mode, not much energy required there either – especially if you’re green (or should that be ovine?) and running about after inconsequential things all the time.

Bovine Boris, in whom so many placed hope, is now neutered, - G*d knows why, - and presumably is now charged to contentedly graze for the remainder of his days until he’s ousted.

Which leaves vital non-PC matters, including of course coal and nuclear, subjects that dare not say their name.

When will we get scribblers (and having noted news of Speccy’s interest at last) who will counter and help do for Coal, Nuclear, and PC tosh what needs to be done? [Thanks to Frank and TGF and others above for interesting posts.]

Just hope DD either is, or becomes, more than just a head bobbing about above the sea of mendacity and mediocrity that is current pol’tics.

Lance Diatessaron

Frank Pulley: Thanks. I imagined there was a perfectly illogical explanation for it.

Elizabeth

Energy!
Whoever privatised our utilities and allowed foreign ownership of them and whoever shut our coal mines need hanging from lamp posts for economic sabotage amongst much else.
Seems they might be the same folk, surprise surprise.
With foreign owners reaping mass profits from British people why would they want to develop our energy sources.
They make even bigger profits by selling our own power back to us via the continent.
We are being screwed friends, by corporate greed in collusion with our bought and sold politicians.
For national security if for no other reason we need to re-nationalise our water and our energy. We also have to tell the green lobby to get real - nuclear energy and coal fired power is a must.
It is not the middle class and the sons of billionaires that will suffer from price hikes - you have the luxury of paying high prices - how many of you have utility shares in the foreign companies who own them?
Its the poor and the old. Many of whom went through the last war. Even fought in it. Yet now much of our energy infrastructure is held by, not least, the Germans? How much in profits goes to those German investors from our pensioners pockets?.
Never have a people been so betrayed by their elected ' snout troughers' as we British.
We need to become an independent country once more. Independent energywise, foodwise and with a re-created manufacturing base to put our workers back into worthwhile employment. Who can blame young working class kids opting for a career in drug selling or feral child production.
A lifetime career of selling McDonalds to overweight consumers wouldn't entice the middle classes to get out of bed each day for a pittance. Why should the poor with so little else on offer.

Old Hack

Since everyone's going on about energy here is my two penny's worth:

The problem with fuel prices is caused by the increase in demand as well as restrictions on supply. Demand can be reduced by reducing consumption. Here are several quick and practical ways to reduce consumption:

a) Reduce speed limits on the roads by 5mph across the board. That would reduce fuel consumption dramatically. For instance my Mercedes C Class diesel knocks out around 60mpg on a motorway journey travelling 65mph compared with around 47mpg at 70mph.

b) Impose speed limits on airliners. Take a lead from America where its being done voluntarily and ask the likes of Ryan Air and Easyjet to add an extra 5-10 minutes flight time to most of their routes. That will save a lot of fuel for very little or no inconvenience.

c. Impose an additional 5mph speed limit on all left hand drive trucks on the grounds of safety (nudge, wink)as they are more likely to be the cause of accidents when on British roads.

The problem with these suggestions is that they damage tax revenue of course - and many people are slowing down voluntarily. But more could be done.

Patrick, London

Old Hack,

Efficiency savings are good in their own right as a cost saver - but do nothing to replace our strategic dependence on imported energy sources.

To become energy independent we will need to substitute with alternative feedstocks - to generate electricity from coal, nuclear, waste and renewables - and to make transport fuels from coal, oil, waste, gas and biofuels.

Diverstity of supply is the name of the game.

Puncheon

On the subject of mendacious politicians, and increasingly desperate Nu-Labour ones, I have noticed recently that my MP (Nu-Lab) has taken to giving little snippets to the local press about how he warned Gordon at the time not to do this or that, eg the abolition of the 10p tax rate. Given that his voting record shows that he is prime lobby-fodder and has supported supported every single Government measure over the past 11 years, this is a bit rich. I wonder if others have noticed Nu-Lab MPs performing a similar "nothin to do with me Gov." routine in their constituencies.

On energy, I agree with Patrick that diversity is the name of the game for security of supply. And as for Elizabeth's amazing rant, I can only say that she clearly never experienced the joys of living in the UK when the National Coal Board, Central Electricity generating Board and all the other useless and costly NIs were running things. I could, but I will spare you all, bore on for a long time on the insane incompetence and worse of the old state run energy sector. We certainly do not want to go there again, no matter how difficult the present problems become.

Water

Great news thanks, adds a whole new edge.

THX1138

I'm with TGF & would like to know why the mods ie Pete always censor anything to do with Speccie proprietors I only managed to get & Conrad Black post through after he was successfully locked up & they are neurotically sensitive about any criticism of Richard Branson..

I'm sorry guys he was convicted of VAT fraud I didn't make it up

From Dominic Lawson In The Independent

http://tinyurl.com/4gd92g

The Money Quote

"Yet how can Richard Branson not be described as a fit and proper person, you might ask: has he not been knighted by Her Majesty the Queen? Well, yes, he has; though I'm told that this award was greeted with a certain gnashing of teeth by the Inland Revenue, and not just because Branson is a consummate practitioner of legal tax avoidance. They haven't forgotten that in 1971 the young Richard Branson was arrested and charged for a complex and wholly illegal tax avoidance scheme involving his nascent records business. He also managed to avoid prison, although not a substantial fine."

Great Idea The Wall though.

Guy Incognito

Old Hack: Good ideas, but I think (b) is a non-starter for the budget airlines. They survive on turn-around times and margins are low. They don't even allocate seat numbers because they achieve fractionally faster times by making the proles fight their way into places rather than dawdling at leisurely BA speeds. Adding 5 or ten minutes each way will eat into profits.

TGF UKIP

Before departing from the subject of energy could I just bang on a bit on one aspect where the Tories could really have a go, and it would be a very green go, at the Government.

This is abandoned mine methane (AMM.) Briefly, for many decades after mines have been closed methane gas continues to be emitted into the atmosphere via ventilation shafts. Two facts about methane - one tonne of methane = 23 tonnes of carbon dioxide and secondly AMM has about 70% of the heating power of ordinary natural gas. In other words AMM can be used to generate electricity.

There are a few very small companies engaged in this in the UK with virtually no government help. The best known is probably Alkane Energy in which I am an investor and to give them as an example, in 2007 from 8 plants at abandoned mines (Including 1 in Germany) they generated 79 million KWH of clean energy, sufficient for 37,000 homes and the methane utilized equated to 600,000 tonnes of CO2 or the equivalent of taking 170,000 cars off the road.

Currently Alkane do make money but only via the current very high prices for electricity. When prices fall back they will struggle not just to make money but more importantly they will be unable to justify investment in further plants.

They produce green energy, they demonstrably prevent large emissions of CO2 but the Government will not accord them the valuable status of "renewable" energy producers nothwithstanding that it has now been scientifically proven that methane does by a subterranean biochemical process renew itself.

From all that I have been able to discover the problem, as with so many others in the energy field, lies not so much with the politicos as with energy department civil servants who, even against so much stiff opposition, do seem to be the biggest bunch of tossers in Whitehall.

The political point remains for The Tories, though, why haven't the Government given all the available help to a double whammy green energy winner.

Water

I see we can put up videos, my dear god.

Pondering Perry

Guido has a thread up about what / when / how the Beloved & Supreme Leader will get the shove.

However, we discerning people at CH know that such crude manoeuvrings are not part of Noo-Lie-Bore planning or strategy.

A New Post with a fancy sounding title and moolah to match must be created. It must shunt The B&S Leader into something where he is harmless, but attractive enough to his vanity to make him go?

What might it be?

Something in the EU perhaps? – no room – Bliar and Mandelsohn are, or will, mop up the gravy there. World Bank? Just think, if he can do what he has to Britain (with, let’s face it, plaudits for much of the time), what might he do to the World?!

Or closer to home, Czar or Commissar of the Borders?

[This isn’t such a stupid idea, - call to mind that His eminence Prescott, J. was DPM]

Marksany.blogspot.com

Biggest issue inside the UK now - broken public service: health, education, welfare, tax, police, prisons, libraries, etc..

The systems fail because of they're designed to do the wrong things and those in the system have targets to meet. Read more here:

Fix public services
www.systemsthinking.co.uk

Joe Camel

Cartoons not available on line this week.

Pete Hoskin

Joe Camel: I don't understand. Did you try to send something in? If so, I didn't get it.

And just to remind people: you can send me photos / videos / cartoons etc. on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll add the best ones to the top of this post. It would be really great to get some stuff up - whatever you want to showcase, be it photos of Parliament, or a decent debate you've found on YouTube.

Pete Hoskin

Oh, and one more thing. I noticed someone put a comment on a Coffee House post earlier this week suggesting most CoffeeHousers don't like Richard Littlejohn's writings.

Is that really true? I'm curious, as he's one of my favourite columnists. Ok, I may not always agree with him. But he manages (I think) to be incisive and funny at the same time - no mean feat. And he concentrates on the issues which, I suspect, really matter.

Anyway, just thought I'd ask...

Still on the Hunt for a credible Leader Perry

So . . . today (25 June @ 1315) . . . with (B)ovine Boris emasculated, DD just an irrelevance (according to some), DC the political push-me-pull-you sales-rep of we-know-not-what who faces both ways at once, - who are we left with who will speak for us?

Who are we? - just common-as-muck people, the salt of the earth people, - unsophisticated, non-metro ruralists, who still remember a land of severe, but satisfying, get-on-and-do-it-yourself independently spirited and minded, yet kindly people, untainted by clever jumped-up little squirts who adore such jumped-up little squirts as Bliar et al.

And . . . a speedier pick up of Speccy CH link. Why so slow sometimes? Or is Speccy downloading lots of cookies like t’grouniad perhaps?

Elizabeth

So Stuart Wheeler has lost his case.
Surprise surprise.
Had the French been promised a referendum and their government reneged they would be before the barricades.
Here only barbaric cruelty to one particular mammal seems to arouse any passion.
This nation and its people are so sunk in lethargy its scary.
Half a million march on parliament for the liberty to kill a defenceles animal. Many of the same half million can barely surpress a yawn when it comes to the survival of their country.
They say we get the government we deserve - with the honourable exception of Stuart Wheeler and those few trying desperately to preserve British independence it would appear everybody else has not much arguement, born out by the singular lack of much posting on this wall. I expected loads!
As for my 'rant' I find a foreign owned energy company, Centrica, raking in a rumoured Billion and a quarter in profits to be announced shortly, something worth ranting about.
Its a burden disproportionately on the poor who run meters and clearly shows a level of profiteering from the British people that is a disgrace.
But I get the implied abuse. Ranting! The crime is corporate greed.

ChrisD

I like the wall idea.
London Calling - liked your pithy post, especially in light of the graffiti stories today.

Would not mind seeing one or two articles on Scottish politics written by those at the coal face so to speak.
No offence, but living in London does mean you often miss some of the detail covered in the media up here, and that can be important.
Don't know if you can invite journalists from other papers to blog on the Coffee House?
But having someone like Ian McWhirter able to post occasionally on a big story would be fantastic. He is very good, despite the fact I don't always like or agree with his conclusions (tongue in partisan cheek).

Cogito Ergosum

Which B & S Leader, Pondering Perry? Red, green, or blue?

Tiberius

Littlejohn is great. Don't know why anyone would not like him or his views.

The long-term energy solution for this country is the same now as it was during the discussions in the 1970s after the Yom Kippur war - nuclear power.

If only the politics didn't keep getting in the way...

Guy Incognito

Peter: Why do we have to submit our email addresses? No one ever emails me with exciting opportunities to subscribe to Spectator publications, no one tells me off even when I submit really naughty comments, and I don't receive any spam. Are our addresses all being loaded onto to big database somewhere, to be loaded onto an unencrypted laptop and left on a train to Tenterden?

Frank Pulley

Whence cometh criticism of Littlejohn? It must be from one of the trolls who automatically get the ol' scroll key when I come a'surfing. Or perhaps it's Joan Hari posting in drag.

Wish he had done better with his Sky News half hour slot; but like the great Cassandra, AA Gill - and a few others I could mention, telly is not really his forte. But he sure punches his weight with the old quill. Long may he continue to do so.

Perry, pondering furiously – or furiously pondering

Thank you kindly indeed Cogito Ergosum (June 25 @ 2:47pm). I’m obliged to you.

. . “ Which B & S Leader, Pondering Perry? Red, green, or blue?” . . .

I’m so thick I . . . never thought of it like that, - but now you’ve got me thinking - a lot!

Frank Pulley

Guy

>"Are our addresses all being loaded onto to big database somewhere, to be loaded onto an unencrypted laptop and left on a train to Tenterden?"

More likely to be left under a chair after watching a corrupted lapdancer, perhaps?

Adam McNestrie

It is obvious now that Mugabe’s regime has been hollowed out so comprehensively by the opposition, the economic crisis and the violence that no one – in or out of power – believes anymore in the official narrative of a great man heroically resisting the attacks of the spiteful Colonialist West. And yet the state-sponsored media in Zimbabwe continues to recycle these seemingly gratuitous lies. Why?

In part because they are gratutious. What could be more terrifying than a public discourse which proceeds as before in a regime where no one has any faith in the words anymore? Orthodox public communication has been reduced to the enactment of a ritual of power in which those talking and those listening rehearse a sham discourse. In so doing, they attest in their utterances and action to the power of a regime that can force people to go through the motions of communicating, when in fact everything that is said is meaningless. There is a nightmare quality of absurdity to it, something bleakly cold and unreal.

Read more at my blog, Just who the hell are we? hosted by wordpress.com, at:
http://adammcnestrie.wordpress.com/

Chuck Unsworth

What I'd like to see against the Wall is the entire Government.

But maybe that's not quite what you meant.

Pete Hoskin

Guy Incognito: To be honest, I'm not sure. I imagine it's something to do with ensuring the comments aren't coming from some spam program. I do know that comments don't get through to us if the commenter doesn't type his/her e-mail in.

ChrisD: That's a good idea about Scottish politics coverage. I'll look into it. Are there any votes for Welsh / N.Irish coverage?

Frank Pulley: I'm not sure where the anti-Littlejohn sentiment's coming from specifically - just a commenter mentioned that CoffeeHousers generally don't like him. I'd be aghast is that was true.

Whilst we're on the topic of Littlejohn, a recommendation: the audiobook of his 'Littlejohn's Britain'. The book's a great read, but - for some reason - the humour comes out even more when spoken. Perfect for tube journeys and the like.

Fraser Nelson

Rex: interest rates are a blunt instrument but one of the few available so they will have to do. As you say, doesn't much deter savers like you. But you're way outnumbered by debtors like me. Low interest rates encourage folk to borrow as much as whatever interest payments they can afford. During the Brown Bubble people would consider themselves "undergeared," ie not in debt enough. This happens when rates are too low.

There's a line in Trainspotting (the book) which examines this. Renton comments on the borrowed wealth he encounters in London in the 1980s. "I know some junkies in Edinburgh with healthier asset to debt ratios than these folk" he says. And its true. Raising rates is saying to the borrowers "down, boy". And it makes it that tiny bit more attractive to save rather than spend.

TGF UKIP

Tiberius, I too am in favour of nuclear power but to a limited extent - probably 20 but max 25%. Sooner or later there will be another major nuclear accident in the world the disastrous consequences of which will inevitably lead to worldwide nuclear shutdowns for exhaustive safety checks.

The vital factor in energy supply is to have a mix. Nuclear will have a share and so will the relatively useless renewables to keep the Guardian and your mate Dave happy but those good old energy bankers gas and coal will still provide the basic energy platform for decades to come.

Currntly far too much politics is being played and far too many posturing attitudes struck on the subject of energy. For now it's too complicated to interest the general public, except for cost, but boy oh boy are they going to be hopping mad in a few years time when the lights start going out. And if there's any justice it will be the greens wot get the blame.

Joe Camel

Pete Hoskin (8.02 am): No, all I meant was that the "Browse the Spectator cartoons" online mechanism doesn't seem to be working this week. It's happened before, though only very rarely.

Rex Burr

Thanks Fraser
Clearly I am out of kilter with current times but I’m too old to change.
I could never understand the ‘credit is good’ attitude, except for very long term items like mortgages. Borrowing doesn’t increase the public’s buying power, it just brings it forward. Any money saved by avoiding inflation is taken in interest.

Guy Incognito

Pete: Thanks. Just curious.

On a related energy security issue, I'd like to see more examination of Russia's role, and particularly her purchase of useful European idiots like the German government, and our dear old Peter Mandelson.

Last week Mr Mandelson accused Georgia of 'holding Russia hostage' over its veto of RUS's accession to the WTO. This being the same timid and craven Russia that has repeatedly shot up Georgian bases, shot at Georgian radars, shot down Georgian UAVs, doubled its 'peace-keeping' presence in Abkhazia last month, and turned off the electricity supply to the Ukraine over a quibble about artificially-inflated bills. I know Mandelson is a trade commissioner, but you'd think he'd understand the bigger issues.

Membership of the WTO *could* force RUS to clarify her legal definitions of her borders, and help, erm, 'enable' her to clean up her standards of governance, which might help some matters. But it's not as though she has a spotless record of compliance as far as international standards are concerned.

This is the point at which the moral relativist crowd pile on and say "Oh yeah, and like Britain and the US are like really good global citizens, yeah, what with their invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the Western gulag in Guantanamo, right?" Well, up to a point; but this where we need to start being a lot clearer about the difference between, say, Grozny and Fallujah, or between 'unlawful enemy combatants' and 'political prisoners'. Some of the crud that gets spouted by these people is so distorted and cretinous that it makes your head spin. Making clearer assertions of our values in these cases would help us in a lot of other, apparently unrelated, areas as well. And there's really no excuse for making the kind of moral inversions that Mandelson did.

But it seems no western countries, apart from the US (and then in a really half-hearted way), have the guts to stand up for the emerging post-Soviet democracies that are struggling out of Russia's orbit. Saakashvili is not a perfect leader, but he has a more plausible claim to consensual leadership than Putin: at least there *is* an opposition in Georgia, and at least the elections were re-run, however imperfectly, when allegations of fraud were highlighted.

The idea that Georgia can bully Russia - and that no one saw fit to call Mandelson's moral cretinousness for what it is - demonstrates the west's weakness. If we can't manage relations with a fragile and demographically-imploding country like Russia (which has as big a problem with their burgeoning Islamic population as any European country), then what hope have we got of managing regimes like China?

It feels very much like the 1970s, with everyone accommodating the Putin regime on the grounds that it's too difficult to do anything else. What will it take (absent a crash in oil and gas prices) to encourage western leaders to take a firm line? War in the Caucasus?

Guy Incognito

P.s. Sorry to go on. Mandelson also suggested that it should be left to businessmen to sort out western Europe's relationship with Russia. I mean, I know our diplomatic service can be as spineless and accommodating as the best of them, and "two and half cheers for liberal capitalism" and all that, but... Really? What, really? Western businessmen? We'll let Shell and BP and our other Bambi-eyed hopefuls go in to bat against Gazprom and the *siloviki*? I know western businesses are no strangers to shady practices, but, next to Russians they look like Dudley Do-right. And good luck trying to deal with Russian state-backed businesses in the Russian legal system.

Nicholas

What do the "Wall Panel" think about Harriet Harm(thenati)on's latest drive for positive discrimination for women and ethnic minorities?

Is this the start of a flurry of radical legislation from a doomed government thinking it may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb?

And just why is New Labour so obsessed with government by coercive legislation, to the extent that it is almost the only means of government in their repertoire (apart from unrealistic targets)?

Puncheon

Elizabeth - You're quite right my use of "rant" was pejorative. I regret it and apologise for any offence. On you the points you raise: in a free but regulated market the ownership of companies does not matter so much as the regulatory framework in which they operate. This is where the Government has been remiss - it appointed some seriously unimpressive people to run OFGEM - some even went on to run the FSA in the run up to the Northern Rock fiasco, but we won't go there. Free energy markets markets are not a fire and forget option for Governments - they need very careful regulatory control that is light enough not to stifle initiative and innovation without allowing the kind of abuse you have noted. But this lot have allowed the regulatory framework to decay. Yes, poor consumers are a problem and they always have been. But there were far more of them disconnected for non-payment under the old state system than now - jobsworths just applied rigid rules without reference to individual cicumstances. And public opprobrium didn't matter to the apparatchicks in charge of them. Whereas companies competing in an open market, no matter how flawed, have to take this kind of thing more seriously. But for a variety of social reasons, mostly arising from misguided left-wing policies, it is very difficult to find real solutions. Perhaps if Brown and co dodn't tax them so heavily they would have more to spend on fuel.

Simon R

Apropos a posting elsewhere about the current paucity of tangible Conservative policies on healthcare (in contrast to DC’s statement of “ a priority in 3 letters … NHS”) do I dare to try to start a debate on the role of primary healthcare?

GPs (for I am one) have become the whipping boys for politicians and the press – all for the temerity of signing the contract in 2004 that introduced the right to withdraw from the provision of Out of Hours Care. There is no doubt that my earning capacity has risen – indeed, I can now expect to earn nearly 20% of what city financiers are earning – and I cannot argue that, on paper at least, I am spending less time in front of patients. However the extra money was supposed to be “performance related pay” – appropriate reward for the provision of services of measurable quality. The quality standards were set by the Government, not by GPs and we have achieved them. By all measures of patient satisfaction – on access, on professional standards, complaints levels et al – GPs across the country have achieved enviably high ratings. And yet we are the whipping boys.

We currently are fighting battles on many fronts. The introduction of polyclinics threatens the stability of existing urban practices and is inappropriate for the huge swathes of the country served by rural and semi-rural practice. The professional standards of GPs, governed over the last 3 decades by the rigorous training and assessment of trainees in General Practice, are at risk – the DoH has accepted that primary care doctors working in polyclinics will not necessarily have to possess the same level of qualification and experience (or even language skills) as ‘ordinary’ GPs – particularly if there is an issue of recruitment. There is a threat to that most intangible but yet most valuable entity – which is continuity of care and the doctor-patient relationship. Training doctors are often reminded that the most powerful drug in the doctor’s armoury is the doctor himself. With a crumbling edifice of stable, established practices that drug will become so much less effective.

The Government White Paper on the role of the Pharmacist might – no, will – cause untold damage for a number of reasons. Firstly, in removing the right for rural doctors to dispense drugs to their patients, many, many practices will find it impossible to continue to support patients in smaller communities – branch surgeries will close, even main practices will become financially unviable. Secondly, pharmacists are trained in the pharmacology and action (and sale) of drugs. They are not trained in the diagnosis and management of disease – they can not take the place of the doctors (and nurses). In any case their permanent fall-back position is to refer to the doctor (or nurse), thus doubling the time spent for the patient, and decimating the economic benefit of using them in the first place.

Most serious for me, though, is the damage that has been done to the relationship between health professionals by the over-management of the process of referral. It was always the greatest strength of the British medical system that doctors knew each other well professionally (and socially); knew their strengths and weaknesses. This worked best for the patients – they were being seen by the right person, with the right clinical priority because doctors talked to each other. This no longer happens. Referrals are made to a referral centre and allocated by managers – this process seems often arbitrary and sometimes opaque. There is a significant breach of that trust of confidentiality between doctors and patients. The Choose and Book computer booking system (a snip at £7B) is - in our area at least - useless, pointless and a waste of money. It is such a bad system that the PCT has to bribe us to use it – like a child offered a plastic toy at McDonalds. Yet another useless IT solution to a non-existent problem from this Government.

And so – morale is low, demand is rising exponentially – fuelled by the epidemic of ‘entitlement’, alternative sources of help for patients with complex sociological problems are dwindling. And we are the whipping boys.

Help, David Cameron, help!

mckenzie

I suppose when the resources get proper low, things will develop beyond the talking shite stage and human nature will show the ugly side of it's greedy selfish ways. But in the mean time, yeah thats right, yeah that's how it is, yeah thats what I have always said.

Puncheon

On the health service - Simon R - what we desperately need to do is the get rid of the 1945 Atlee/Beveridge model. It is Stalinism pure and simple. Just because people agree that a national health service is a good thing - it's in all our interests to have a healthy population - does not mean we have to turn the medical profession into civil servants. There are other, better, ways of tackling this,which is why not a single other country has followed our model. One of the main lessons that the Labour Party has taught us is that politicians and civil servants are hopeless at the provision of goods and services. The provision of anything free at the point of use is idiotic, since there is no way that the user can value what they are getting. The whole national insurance model is flawed and unrealistic - typical of the high minded idiots running things in the post 1945 era. We've, thankfully, got rid of all the other Stalinist lunacies of the post-war period (except for the BBC of course) so what's so special about the NHS. Just look at how things are done elsewhere in Europe, eg Belgium and France, and you will understand that the NHS is a totally mad solution to an important problem.

Elizabeth

I can hardly write this, reeling as I am to find I am on the same side as the Germans and Peter Mandelson on SOMETHING!.
What a shock to find such bedfellows when it comes to Russia and the present policy of neocons and neoliberals of abusing and blaming her for everything bar the enormous sins of the privatised energy companies. I am sure they will link Centrica to Putin before very long.
You are so right Puncheon about the appalling regulation but it goes deeper than that.
Two things in particular really rile when it comes to privatised utilities.
Why do they expect to make what are enormous profits and yet when any improvements or structural work etc etc needs doing we are told we have to pay for that as well as the profits so the consumer gets a double whammy.
Surely those costs should come out of profits. When it comes to the oil companies they justify obscene profiteering on the grounds that the profits are needed for new development etc.
Now it seems to me there is a great contradiction here.
Big business just adjusts its story to screw the defenceless consumer all ways.
Also the fact that privatised energy companies have done nothing to give the British the ability to store British gas.
We have something like 22 days storage - after that we sell it to the continent cheap and buy it back dear.
What a racket? As foreign owned companies why should they care. They are in it for their shareholders not the British consumer. We are like so many milch cows.
On the continent the countries have over 100 days storage - some well above.
Now who do we blame for this predictament that just happens to be so profitable for the privatised utilities?.
Can we the people take a class action lawsuit against them for such failure?, is it the governments - should they have done something?
Who do we blame?.
At least if we had British management under ministerial direction we could assume that such remission was not deliberate and a blatant act of profiteering from a helpless clientele.
Before privatisation did the management ever act in such a manner that has basically ripped off the British people and their energy resources.
This winter many people are going to get into serious problems when it comes to gas.
We are going to regress heavens knows how many years back to pensioners huddled by one bar heaters deciding whether to heat or starve.
Families - even the middle classes are going to discover a few hard truths.
Mt Browns ridiculous announcement today of 7000 windmills in the Bristol Channel is not only visual pollution of the worse kind, a menace to the birds in the area but an absolute insult to people facing a bleak and cold winter.
Windmills in his brain more like.

Nicholas

Ah, yes, Brown's windmills. Who is the Sanchez to his Don Quixote? There are plenty of donkeys in the cabinet.

And this Wall doesn't work very well. It would be better if people could post responses in a separate thread to each primary or new post. Otherwise it is going to get very confusing.

Tiberius

Agree, Nicholas, the Wall is betwixt and between a blog and a discussion forum in this form.

Christopher Booker has provided ample analysis of wind turbines to show their inadequacy in achieving their aim, due to the inherent uncertainty of the weather, their spoiling of the landscape, damage to nature, and disastrous return on investment.

Tiberius

Gleefully, the BBC is reporting Caroline Spelman may be sacked. It looks as if her defence isn't going to be adequate.

London Calling

Time for a coffee break, make it a strong one for me…

@PHoskin...
I couldn’t link to this wall via your homepage or the coffee house and had to back track to find it, how can the wall be accessed otherwise, have I missed something or am I just another Brick in the Wall?… :0

Cartoons are still on the drawing board, am having great fun, hope to upload soon to you Mr P.

I thought it was time to add some visuals to this wall before Banksy comes along and the council make it a listed building.

As the following clip is about politics, I thought it may offer a different perspective on the issues surrounding the current credit munch, oil and the falling dollar and may interest some Spectators.

The Euro, The Oil and The Dollar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEpp9E6aJGw

Puncheon

Elizabeth - Thanks for the mention. I agree with your analysis, but you are shooting at the wrong targets. Private sector companies are under a legal duty to enhance their shareholders assets, that means, among other things, they have to maximise profits. It is up to the regulator to specify investment levels in infrastructure etc, and they got it spectacularly wrong. This is largely because DTI/BERR has been a dysfunctional department for well over 10 years. For example, on gas storage you're dead right but the reason we don't have enough is that the DTI/BERR for about 10 years has refused to implement an EU directive specifying 90 days minimum storage capacity. Their justification was that we have the North Sea gas to fall back on. That was OK once upon a time, but then they sanctioned a gas interconnector that enabled gas to be exported to Europe at 10X the rate it could be imported. As gas prices in Europe are traditionally higher than in the UK, predictably gas was sucked out of the North Sea and into Europe. There were many of us that pointed out the folly of this at the time, but we were either ignored or driven out. I'm sorry Elizabeth, but the mess you have rightly identified is entirely of the Government's making. But who is to get us out of it hey, that's the question.

TGF UKIP

Nicholas and Tiberius, the most dishonest thing about the way the greens and the politicians speak about renewables is the impression they give that they can entirely or very nearly supplant conventional generating sources - nuclear, coal and gas.

They can't because of their very nature. Wind, solar (massively expensive) and tidal power can only be irregular sources of energy - wind don't blow etc etc. They can be utilized to replace or supplement base power when available but by their very nature they can only be a minor overall contributor.

I have seen a formula which, from memory, indicated that the balance was something like for each three units of temporary (renewables) power, seven units of base power are required. I willingly stand to be corrected on this, though, as my instinct tells me that my memory is erring on the very conservative side.

BTW, Elizabeth, to partially assuage your rage I can tell you that oil companies producing from the North Sea do hand over very large taxes. One smaller company with which I am familiar that has been producing up till now almost exclusively from the UK N. Sea paid tax last year of £81m on profits of £143m i.e. 57%. A couple of years ago Gordon doubled the supplementary oil profits tax which may go some way to accounting for the serious slide in N. Sea production and Treaury take therefrom. The old supply side argument again - Boy George and his Speccie admirers should take note

Elizabeth

Thank you Puncheon and TGF for kind and pertinent corrections.
Hearing about the tax still does not warm my heart when it comes to corporate oil but its nice to know the 'kitty' gets something. Sadly we all of us know how this government wastes some 70% of the money it receives - one way or another. Is that harsh? I'm trying to think of some recent government 'initiative' worth 5 pence. Our resident Doctor made a good case for the utter madness coming from Labour and all its PC discrimination and other works.
I was particularly grateful, Puncheon, for your explanations about the question of our North sea gas, energy etc. I can read the basic runes here with my keyboard and broad band (free) but when it comes to the details in the entrails - then a professional seer is obviously best and you certainly explained it well. Appreciated.
Just two points - which government made the blunder? - as you will well know, my opinion of governments in general these days is far from high. I am just interested.
I would also like to amend my original contention that the people that sold off our power and water should be hung on lamp posts.
I understated it somewhat.
Reading your comment
'legal duty to enhance their shareholders assets' I felt sicker than ever.
So these assets belonging to the people were sold off to entities whose requirement was to profiteer for their shareholders to every degree possible at the cost of the British people and their purses. The people to come second with, as you have so convincingly pointed out, virtually nothing of much use between them and the daylight robbery by the latest incarnation of robber barons.
To put our security in energy and water - two pillars of national security in the hands of companies whose main requirement was sheer profit and not even necessarily profit to stay in Britain. Global capitalism in a nutshell.
I now contend that the traitors! who sold out our utilities should be hung on lamp posts but in the true spirit of the English tradition reserved for particularly treasonous and disloyal barons - they should then be cut down alive and hung, drawn and quartered.
I doubt if there will be much difficulty in finding executioners. There is a lot of fury building among us plebs.

Hysteria

why not set up a Spectator chat roo, so these debates can go in real time?

Pete Hoskin

Hysteria, Tiberius, London Calling, and others: thanks for suggesting improvements for this Wall facility. We're certainly looking to refine it. The technology isn't currently in place for some things (hence we went ahead with the Wall in its current incarnation), but we can change that. So keep the ideas coming!

Diversity

Young master Hoskin's wipe-clean graffitti wall is intended to provide a diversion in times of elections. We have a small rash of elections his summer, so I shall letter a little on that theme.

It is a mystery why Gordon Brown chose to put up a candidate for an entirely foreseeable lost deposit in Henley, and somewhat derisively declined to put up a candidate for a head to head - none of these distracting LibDems - against a leading Tory, one David Davis. It is a mystery, but is it also a sign?

One theory is that Gordon Brown declined the fight in Yorkshire because he will "bottle out" of a fight wherever he can. Henley seems to demonstarte that is not so.

Another theory is that Mr Brown finds the prospect of a fight where there is nothing to attack besides Consevative policies - David Davis is standing as a Tory and will have to defend the full range of Tory policies, will he nil he,- completely unmangeable. Yet he makes that attack regularly in Parliament.

A third theory is that Mr Brown has come to think of elections which the Liberal Democrats do not fight are, by definition, not serious politics. Yet he shows every sign in Parliament of a heartfealt wish that the LibDems did not exist.

A fourth theory is that Mr Brown saw no prospect of defending his Government's legislation on civil rights against Mr Davis' attack. But the opinion polls keep showing that the voting public seems to have a fairly favourable view of each item of that legislation. Given that fact, would the betting market have signalled a lost Labour deposit in Haltemprice? It seems unlikely.

A fifth theory is that the Labour Party could not afford to pay the election expenses in Haltemprice. Yet a saved deposit in Haltemprice would have been cheaper than a lost deposit in Henley.

It is a mystery indeed. The only way that I can scry together Gordon Brown's two decisions on whether a Labour candidate should stand , with some consistency, is to suppose that they have a common origen in habits of havering and of fits of anger. But perhaps young master Hoskins grafittising friends will see a pattern where I see murk.

john miller

Fraser should head over to the Inquirer to read up on some more
Brownies.

In an article about the DNA database, Brown's defence is exposed thus:

"If we had not made this change, 8,000 suspects who have been matched with crime scenes since 2001 would in all probability have got away, their DNA having been deleted from the database. This includes 114 murders, 55 attempted murders, 116 rapes, 68 other sexual offences, 119 aggravated burglaries, and 127 drugs offences," Brown said.

Not only were these claims false, Wallace [from Genewatch] pointed out, but the government itself had admitted so in 2006.

Always best to check what your own Government has already admitted before issuing contradictory information...

hans v.d. rechts

dear puncheon, is your M.P.Tom Levitt from High Peak ??

THX1138

Not sure this idea is working.

What about a chat room?

Puncheon

hansv.d. rechts - No. My MP is Eric Martlew - Carlisle. Is yours up to this as well?

Elizabeth

Puncheon,TGF
I have replied but it has not been approved.
Slap on wrist!

Pete Hoskin

Elizabeth: I couldn't remember blocking one of your comments on purpose, so I
checked back through the system and found the comment you're referring
to. It's completely fine. I've approved it now and it should be
appearing above. Sorry about that - don't know how it was
missed.