Scottish sectarianism

ACT

A cynic, of course, could argue that Cameron & co have malign intent in kicking off in a chapel not a kirk. After all, if it annoys the residual anti-Labour Orange vote in Glasgow East, what are *they* going to do? Oh that's right, protest vote Labour, not Tory. And while the SNP winning wouldn't be good for the Union, obviously, equally, sorry, much more importantly for Cameron, it would give Gordon a good sock in the chops as far as English Labour MPs are concerned. Fortunately, as there aren't any cynics round Cameron, this thought will never have occurred to anyone in his entourage.

wonderfulforhisage

Hooray, I fairly long post all on one page. So much easier to read.
Could you make this the standard please?

Joe Camel

For an English reader with little knowledge of Scotland, this is an interesting an enlightening comment. Thank you.

But are you sure the "left footer" story is a myth? In Liverpool -- which shares with Glasgow the Catholic-Protestant divide arising from Irish immigration -- I was assured it has to do with a special kind of narrow spade used for digging peat, conventionally made one way in Ulster but the other way round south of the border.

Silent Hunter

All of which only goes to prove that 'sectarianism' is really only of interest to those of LOW IQ.

Craig Strachan

One historical wrinkle - one of the two ancestral parties of the SNP, the Scottish People's Party, campaigned against Irish (Catholic) immigration to Scotland, seeking to label Irish people "aliens" after 1922 and the creation of the Irish Free State.

Folk memory of this may be a reason why West of Scotland Catholics have been relatively immune to the appeal of the SNP.

If the SNP does win East, it will be a turn up for the books.

But I hae ma doots!

John Lea

Living in Glasgow, I was unfortunate enough to witness the Orange Order 'celebrations' on Saturday, and I can confirm that Silent Hunter is absolutely correct in his assertion concerning the participants' low IQ. The vast majority of people I saw were absolute idiots: the vast majority were drunk and acting like complete louts, shouting obscenities, singing sectarian songs, using the streets as lavatories, and intimidating passers-by (especially young women). I saw one elderly disabled man try to cross the street while the march was on, only to be pushed back violently by a member of the walk. Shame on Glasgow City Council for allowing this disgraceful event to take place. And well done Fraser for raising the issue.

Joe Strummer

Fraser Nelson has obviously been away from Glasgow for many years as he hasn't a clue about sectarianism or should I say the blatant anti-Protestant sectarianism and discrimination in jobs, public housing and education in the city, especially in the Scottish Labour controlled public sector. Glasgow City Council isn't nicknamed Glasgow Catholic Council for no reason.

Despite Protestants making up 64 % of the Glasgow population there hasn't been a Protestant Lord Provost ( a Scottish version of an English Lord Mayor)in over 30 years. In fact there hasn't been ANYTHING but a Roman Catholic Lord Provost in all that time.

Over 90 % of the Labour councillors on the GCC are also Roman Catholic despite their minority community in Glasgow.

The anti-Protestant Monklandsgate scandal is nothing in comparison to the even worse bigotry and discrimination shown to the Protestant community in Glasgow.

T. M. O.

I lived in Glasgow for three years and was fascinated by the anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiments that absorb Glasgow's bulging working-class. Being a Dublin Protestant, and very avidly anti-union I never experienced anything like that in Ireland though I suspect that prosperity and frankly, the greater tolerance of Catholics than Scots Presbyterians has had much to contribute there. If anything, I would suggest that Scotland is worse in its sectarian divide than Northern Ireland. At least in NI they recognise there is a problem and are trying to do something about it - firstly developing a sense of humour. As for the Labour party having been 'too' Catholic in the past - is that any wonder? I know myself if I had to witness Orange marches, discrimination in the workplace, threats of violence or worse - well I think I'd cling to some kind of power base for self protection too. If only Scots Presbyterians had followed the example of the Republic of Ireland's Catholics where Protestants become presidents and party leaders, comedians and teachers and none of this was in any way worthy of comment before I lived in dreary Glasgow.

John Lea

In response to Joe Strummer: it's funny, but I don't recall ever witnessing a pro-Catholic/anti-Protestant march in Glasgow city centre in the past 34 years. Not one. Yet the Orange Order marching season (and it is a season, incidentally, not just one weekend a year) takes place, year in year out. As for that nonsense about Protestants in Glasgow being discriminated against in the jobs market, you could make the same case for any religious or ethnic group based on a few individual cases. It's absolute nonsense. Joe, you need to grow up!

Joe Strummer

-T.M.O

Where is this anti-Catholic or anti-Irish sentiment or discrimination in Glasgow that you speak of.? Could you give even one current example.?

As for the Scottish Labour Party, the original noble ideals of that certain party have been warped and corrupted by West Of Scotland Catholic Labour politicians who employ and have employed a "jobs for the Catholic bhoys" policy and inflaming sectarian tensions in the process.

Joe Strummer

-John Lea

If you'd like to prove where anything I typed concerning the anti-Protestant bigotry and discrimination in jobs, housing and education in Glasgow is false you are welcome to do so.

Also, try Coatbridge in Lanarkshire around St Patrick's Day / Week/ Month for a jamboree of sectarian anti-Protestant pro-terrorist IRA marches.

Joe Strummer

The history of any so called anti-Catholic Irish "sectarianism", and I wouldn't call it that at all, in Glasgow can be traced back to during World War One when the Irish Catholic immigrants publicly supported Britain's enemy the Germans whilst countless of their fellow Glaswegian men were being mown down in machine-gun fire on the European continent by these same Germans.

The Glasgow immigrant Catholic Irish also supported the German Nazis in World War Two. Their favourite football club Celtc FC's ground was closed for a month during WW2 due to pro-German chants being sung by their Catholic Irish supporters.

Even during the 1982 Falklands War, Glasgow's Catholic Irish showed their support for Galtieri's fascist junta against Britain by wearing Argentina football shirts. Even in 2008, the Poppy Day Charity which distributes and sells red paper flowers in November avoids the Celtic Park area of Glasgow for fear of violent attack from anti-British Celtic supporters.

The Irish Catholic indifference and support for Scotland and Britain's wartime enemies to this day still causes much animosity.

T. M. O.

Joe,

I really don't have to give you any examples of anti-Irish or anti-Catholic sentiments - you're a minefield of them!

Let's just take a few examples then. The British state is headed by one who is constitionally bound to not be a catholic, or indeed marry one. Anglicans, Presbyterians and Lutherans have all been Monarachs and consorts in Britain, but no catholic can do so. I was astonished to find this out when I moved to Glasgow from R.O.I. Catholics and reasonable people were too, but there were a substantial number of Glaswegians who thought it odd that anyone would worry about the odd bit of sectarianism.

2. I lived in Partick, several saturdays in the summer I was in fear to cross Dumbarton Road in case anyone heard my accent due to Orange marches. Frankly I found these sectarian spectacles terrifying.

3. Regularly walking down Glasgow streets I would hear car radio blasting out Loyalist hymns baying for blood. Again, raising in this in conversations with Scots and unless they were from the rather more civilised east coast, this did not seem to be an issue of embarrasment for them.

4. When Union Jack McConnell attempted to stop sectarianism in Scottish football a few years he targetted Celtic players blessing themselves. Apparently no one has informed the Italians, the Spanish, the Portuguese and just about every other Catholic footballer in the world who use blessing themselves as a good luck charm before trying for a penalty - that they're being sectarian! Curiously enough the 'knee deep in fenian blood' red lines on Rangers kit didn't attract any attention.

5. Despite all of this and far more besides, Catholics are blamed for this sectarianism. Catholics schools in England are as comment worthy as Protestant Schools in Irelad. Yet in Scotland they would have you believe that they were nothing short of Hitler Jugend. What's wrong with seperate Catholic Schools? They have a different take on R.E. and a different ethos, is that a problem? And for heaven's sake if generations of people are going to have to undergo sectarianism in the workplace and educational system - still in force thanks to be Presbyterian-only Carnegie fund - well yes, people are going try and protect their own. Ghetto-isation has its consequences you know!

Craig Strachan

T.M.O.

Some of your observations about Glasgow may be accurate, but I think you paint too rosy a picture of the position of Protestants in the Irish Republic, historically speaking.

Yes, Douglas Hyde was a Prod who became President. But what about the sectarian boycott of his funeral service by Valera and others? And why did the % of Protestants in the population of the 26 counties decline from 11% in 1911 to less than 3% today?

Scotland can learn from Ireland's recent success, certainly, but also her past mistakes.

Joe Strummer

T.M.O.

Firstly, I notice that nobody from Glasgow has denied or disagreed with the overt anti-Protestant discrimination in Glasgow.

1. The Monarch of Great Britain can only be Anglican due to the Monarch also being Head of the Anglican Chuch Of England. Protestants of the Church Of Scotland are also barred. Its as pointless as claiming that it is "sectarian" that there isn't a Protestant or Jewish Pope.

2. You find the public expression of Protestantism " terrifying" but not Catholicism publicly expressed by Celtic players.? Interesting hypocrisy there.!

3. Visit the Barras area of Glasgow, of which I'm sure you know well, and you'll hear all the blood-curdling hymns of Cathlic sectarian hate loudly emanating from the numerous pubs.

4. Catholic Celtic players publicly expressing their Catholicism on the pitch is not a problem, but the media defenders of the players right to do so would be the same individuals expressing "outrage" at Rangers players mimicking a flute player in an Protestant marching band or Rangers wearing an Orange strip. That would be "sectarian", of course. Some more interesring hypocrisy and double-standards there.!

5. More than 92% of the Scottish population want sectarian apartheid in the education system ablished as it is universally acknowledged that separating children at 5 until 16 r 17 into separate schools based on religious belief is the root cause and perpetuators of sectarianism and religious bigotry. We quite rightly wouldn't tolerate schools based on skin colour so why religion.?

Scotland is a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic society and our schools should reflect that.

Also, Catholic schools in Scotland are a proven failure on both academic and social levels. Only ONE of these schools with that "special Catholic ethos" has reached the top 50 in the country for scholastic achievement. On a social level, that Scottish prisons have a disproportionate amount of Catholic inmates per head of the population also more than suggests that their education has made it more difficult for these Catholic ex pupils to integrate into wider society.

Ian C

ACT - if you're right it is a smart move! Judging by the Lewis debacle I think it unlikely.

dearieme

"What's wrong with separate Catholic Schools?" One tried to teach a cousin of mine to hate Protestants. None of my Protestant or atheist cousins was taught to hate Roman Catholics.

T. M. O.

Craig,

I've never met a Catholic who didn't find the spectacle of the cabinet being outside St Patrick's Cathedral for that state funeral to be hugely embarassing. At the time Roman Catholics were requested not to enter Protestant places of worship as it was a mortal sin to do so! The government themselves were embarassed but did not wish to raise the ire of the Roman church. Not a great episode from our shared history but it's interesting to note that these days all shades of the reformed churches officiate at Presidential inaugerations and since Hyde's funeral we elected another Protestant president, Erskine Childers who was hugely popular. I take your point though, people have learned from their mistakes. This was certainly shown when Roman Catholic Belast born President Mary McAleese took the eucharist in St Patrick's cathedral.

T. M. O.

Joe,

The head of my church is the Archbishop of Armagh, the head of the anglican communion is the Archbishop of Canterbury. Nice guys. I have no idea what part Queen Elizabeth plays in all of that but to me she's the head of state and therefore should not be an emblem of sectarianism.

When I witnesed Orange Marches in Glasgow I saw alcohol fueled aggression and I was fearful. Asking for God's blessing, simple as it may be and not my taste is none the less somewhat less than intimidating. I think I would regard it as charming compared to imitating a sectarian marcher. Wouldn't you?

Ah yes, the barras, always best to go on Old Firm days when the police are seperating Rangers fans from their would be victims. I remember being outside Timland hearing "You are my Larson, my Henrik Larson, you make me happy every day" Blood Curdling indeed! Never in my life have I heard a sectarian rebel song, many of them anti-Imperialist but never any anti-protestant. Many of them actually celebrate Irish Protestants like Wolfe Tone etc!

I actually taught in a 'Catholic' school. I remember teaching a lovely group of Muslim girls, many catholics- some practising and a few Protestants. None of them knew I wasn't Catholic, many staff were in mixed marriages and no-one ever told people to hate Protestants. Probably because there were so many there, presumably because they thought it was a good school.

As for Catholics in prison, maybe you're right, but with the likes of Donald Finlay in your legal system should anyone be surprised?

I find it interesting that dearime's cousin was told to hate protestants. people so rarely have these experiences and then relate them themselves. I believe in medieval times they had a similar problem with dog heads.

Joe Strummer

-T.M.O.

Anyone offended by an Orange Parade is a bigot. There is no other motive for any objection. Its like saying I'm not objecting to the Notting Hill Carnival on racist grounds but I don't like the music. Nobody buys it.

As for the sectarian anti-Protestant songs as Soon There'll Be No Protestants At All or St Patrick's Fenian Band I'm sure you've never heard them at Celtic matches or near the Barras inside the sectarian slophouses. I'm disappointed but not surprised, however, that you fell into the trap of the tired old cliche of " they aren't sectarian songs but political" excuse.

As for teaching in a Catholic school, you would also have approved of the glass ceiling for Protestant teachers in being barred from promotion solely because of their religion.?

Silent Hunter

As a general comment....

To 'hate' anyone solely on their race, religion or gender is, frankly ludicrous.

I reiterate my point about LOW IQ's which I think has now been clearly demonstrated for us.

T. M. O.

Joe,

I am Irish, I am Protestant. I am very proud to be both. I've never heard an anti-Protestant sentiment in a rebel song. Protestants are heroes in rebel songs. The names of Wolfe Tone, Charles Stewart Parnell and Robert Emmett amongst other Protestants are immortalised in song. It's a wonderful tradition and I hope an independent, confident and wealthy Scotland will remember all of their national heroes in a similar spirit, overlooking religious divisions.

I'm not offended by Orange Marches, I'm scared by them. They represent Protestant supremacy. I don't feel any better than my Catholic neighbours, I don't agree with all their beliefs but I don't feel better than them. So I don't agree with the sectarian orange order. I have no idea what the Notting Hill carnival is, are they also a sumpremist, bigoted organisiation celebrating victory in relgious battles from long ago?

Silent Hunter

I can't agree with you. Sadly, some of the cleverest people are sectarian. That's what makes them so dangerous.

T. M. O.

Oh, and another thing, I really am amused about called a bigot. How exactly can I be a bigot against Protestants when I am one. Unless it's like being white and hating the KKK - ah - now there's a thing!

Alex

Joe Strummer said:

<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

Both of my Glaswegian grandfathers were killed in battle during WW2. Both were 2nd generation Irish Catholics.

I could tell you how offensive your suggestions are; I could tell everyone reading this just what an appalling sewer you have for a mind, but then you seem to have done that successfully yourself.

You truly are an appalling, very very small man.

Sean

T. M. O.
Queen Elizabeth is simply 'Defender of the faith'.
Fascinating discussion.

John Lea

Joe, at one point on Saturday, the march paused, and one of the Orange Order drummers shouted 'F*ck the Pope!' which was met with waves of applause and howls of approval from the pond life who follow these parades. Although not particularly religious, I found this deeply offensive. According to your deluded logic, I suppose that makes me a bigot? Incidentally, I imagine you will feel duty-bound to respond to this point, and, as I can see that you are impervious to reasonable debate and argument on this issue, all I will say is that if you do decide to reply, you will at least have the satisfaction of having the last word. All I would say to you is please try and develop some self-awareness. From your emails it's clear that you're an intelligent man, but you also come across as the worst type of sectarian bigot, and one utterly consumed with anti-Catholic paranoia. I despise the Orange order and their stupid walks - because they divide people in this city, and create a climate of hatred and fear - but I would never make attacks on Protestantism or Protestants, or people of any faith. That is what separates my argument from yours.

Sean O'H

Wow John Lea! Methinks you once caught a fish THIS BIG! You want to win the argument, dont descend into fantasy tales. I was in Glasgow shopping on Saturday with the family and saw some sights, but unless you followed this walk looking for someone to shout this stuff, I'm inclined to to think there is a forked toungue at play...Oh and I'm a Roman Catholic!

John Lea

Sorry, this is my final post on this issue (honest!). I offer this as a sort of coda, because it will hopefully refute some of Joe's more absurd claims about his perceived Catholic infiltration of Glasgow City Council. After Saturday's Orange Order march, I wrote to a number of Glasgow city councillors to complain - only one responded. Considering what he wrote, I think it would be wrong to give his name, but here is his reply:
'John, I doubt if you will receive much of a responce from most local politicians because at the end of the day they have to pander to their possible electorate some of whom may well be in the Orange Order. Personally I am opposed to demonstrations of the divisions which are a curse on our community. Scotland should be inclusive and welcome our rich diversity of people and culture.' Well said.

Patrick Barrett

The Orange Order are akin to the KKK.

JackJ

Regarding the article above, it will certainly be an eye opener for our English brothers and sisters in the Union.

To start on David Cameron using a Catholic church to start his campaign; it’s very simply a two finger salute to Gordon Brown by going to the very heartland of the constituency and appealing to his electorate, while Brown cowers away in London thinking his 3rd choice candidate will still blow away the opposition. The rumours in Glasgow are that after initial candidate George Ryan had stepped out of the race, Brown personally phoned Glasgow Council leader Stephen Purcell four times at the weekend asking if he would stand, only to be rebutted.

Quite why a respected publication would use such an event to become the basis for a bad history lesson on sectarianism in Glasgow, when numerous studies have concluded that the perception of the problem nowadays is actually far worse than the reality.

One such study, by Professor Steve Bruce of Aberdeen University, entitled “Beware Myths that Tarnish "sectarian" Scots” explodes many of the myths of sectarianism in Scotland wide open.
In his findings, he states that there is no evidence of sectarianism in the work place, and precious little evidence to support the belief (pardon the pun) of sectarianism being an everyday problem for a number of people.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Top-academic-slams-sectarian-scaremongers.2522381.jp

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Sectarianism-no-longer-a-problem.2387413.jp

He cites that the media’s dealings with the subject are largely sensationalised, and in some cases sheer fabrication in order to sell newspapers, and he provides evidence to prove it.

Beware Myths that Tarnish "sectarian" Scots

STEVE BRUCE

TWENTY years ago, I published the first serious social-science study of sectarianism in Scotland, called "No Pope of Rome". Last year, with three colleagues, I returned to the subject. We devoted much effort to measuring every index of religious disadvantage, discrimination, difference and conflict in Scotland. We looked at economic position, educational qualifications, access to higher education, political power, voting patterns, legal rights, residential segregation and sectarian violence and came to the conclusion that the best parallel for the experience of the Irish Catholic community in Scotland was not the enduring conflict of Northern Ireland but the successful integration found in the United States.

I offer two items from a large array of data to support this optimistic view.

First, social class: disadvantage is not itself proof of discrimination, but the link works in reverse - if Catholics are victimised in schooling and employment, they should have a lower class profile. What the 2001 Census shows is that there is now little difference between those raised as Catholics and those raised as Protestants. The group with the worst class profile is that of those raised with no religion (and, no, we have no idea why either).

Second, integration: just over half of married Catholics under 35 have non-Catholic spouses. In Northern Ireland, only 6 per cent of marriages are mixed. In the US, inter-racial marriages are also about 6 per cent. Despite segregated schooling, Scots now choose partners with no regard for religion.

Yet, the perception is different. In a recent Glasgow survey, 53 per cent said they thought employment discrimination was common, but only 1 per cent said they had suffered any (and half of those were not Catholic).

One explanation for this paradox may be mistaken baseline expectations. One person said her firm discriminated against Catholics because only three out of ten people were Catholic. Because we talk about the Catholic Church and the Kirk, Catholic schools and state schools, and Rangers and Celtic as matching pairs, it is possible to suppose that half of Glaswegians are Catholic and, hence, only three Catholics in ten people needs explaining. Actually, three in ten is a slight over-representation, because Catholics make up only 25 per cent of lowlands Scots.

We see the same paradox with violence. Two-thirds of the Glasgow survey said sectarian violence was common or very common, but less than 1 per cent had suffered any. When those who had suffered various forms of abuse were asked the reasons, it turned out that most violence was domestic. Residential area was much more commonly cited than religion, as were gender and sexuality. So, again, we have a mismatch. People think something is widespread but somehow they have not experienced it.

This is what I mean by a social myth. How do we explain it? A large part of the answer is that opinion-leaders such as politicians and the mass media believe that sectarianism is a major problem and that belief distorts their perceptions.

I will cite just two examples. Since June 2003, it has been possible for a criminal offence to be "aggravated" by religious prejudice. A mugger can now be hit with a second charge if he calls his victim "a Proddie b******". Last November, the Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal Service released their analysis of the first six months of the new system. The Daily Telegraph was typical in leading with "Catholics are twice as likely as Protestants to be the targets of sectarian abuse". What was not stressed in the reporting was that, in more than 90 per cent of cases, the original offence was breach of the peace, not murder, robbery or assault. More than a third of the victims were police officers, not civilians, and more than half the perpetrators were drunk. More than a third of cases were associated with football matches or Orange marches. And the sectarian abuse was verbal.

This is not Nazis wrecking Jewish shops: it is young drunks ranting at coppers and others who get in the way of their inalienable right to get drunk and disorderly.

What was striking about this episode was that the Crown Office (aided by uncritical reporting) created an entirely false impression of Catholics as victims. The perpetrators do not know the religion of their victims and nor do we. What we know is the content of the verbal abuse. It tells us about the identity of the abuser, not the abused. Two-thirds of the perpetrators expressed anti-Catholic sentiments; one-third expressed anti-Protestant sentiments. If the drunken hooligans of Glasgow divide two-thirds Protestant and one-third Catholic, that is about par for the area. Incivility is evenly distributed.

Second case: last November, the Sunday Mail reported the burning down of a Catholic chapel in Stornoway under the banner headline "Real toll of Old Firm mayhem". The police later announced that the fire was caused by an electrical fault and that no crime was suspected, but that fact did not get the banner-headline treatment. Thus are myths sustained.

With regards to Mr Nelson’s article, it is rather ill-informed.
Firstly, the migration between Scotland and Ireland started long before the Potato Famine, with the migration being both ways. When the famine took place, the migration became one way, with many Irish Catholics migrating to Scotland in search of a better life, but woefully unequipped to slot in to the workplace, due to their lack of skills.

The Presbyterian community became concerned at this influx of migrants with little prospect of finding work, and with their harsh views on drinking, this compounded their outlook on the newcomers, as they had no such inhibitions. While the church’s statement looks ridiculous now, within the context of the time, and of the reality at the time, it is entirely understandable.

The influx of “Irish” to the Shipyards was largely Ulster Protestants who had come over from Harland & Wolfe in Belfast. Had the influx included Catholics, then perhaps the church’s view may have been different.

With regards to the Orange march Mr Nelson witnessed in Edinburgh, I’ll have to take his word for his account of the “no popery” banner, but have personally never seen anything of the kind at any marches in Glasgow that I have witnessed. Before I go on, I’d like to stress here and now I am not a lodge member, and nor do I follow the walk, however, I did witness the “big walk” in Glasgow on Saturday, which went by without incident. If Mr Lea is referring to this march (It was the only one in the centre of Glasgow on Saturday) then I can comfortable assert that Mr Lea is taking part in a badly contrived smear campaign with absolutely no basis in truth.

The “low IQ” jibe clearly says more about him than it does about the participants in the walk.

Lastly, to explain the intricacies of the Orange Order to our brothers across the border, it is a Presbyterian organisation which celebrates the “Battle of the Boyne” in 1690 in Ireland which saw the British Isles freed from the tyranny of the Catholic Church, and Catholic rule of what would become the UK. Ultimately, had this battle not been won, the UK would not be the cosmopolitan country it has become, in accepting all colours, creeds and religions over the last hundred years or so.

To draw comparison, the great melting pot of people in the UK would not exist, and Britain would be more like Spain or Italy, where the church interferes in Politics to this day, and these countries have major problems with racism and intolerance of immigrants.

Britain is not Spain, it is not Italy and it should be proud of it’s heritage and proud of why it is the best country in the world. Small minded people who have an issue with this are the problem.
Commenters such as Patrick Barrett to attempts to group the organisation with the KKK are laughable. It’s negative propaganda against an organisation that prevented the UK becoming a closed shop to one religion and one religion only.

Want to talk about bigotry? No need to look any further than Mr Barrett.

Then John Lea tells us about his “letter” and the reply from the councillor “Scotland should be inclusive and welcome our rich diversity of people and culture.”

It is. Without Britain’s culture that the march celebrated it probably wouldn’t be.

Orangeman

John Lea at 3.15 yesterday said something that needs to be challenged. He made a sweeping statement about antisocial behaviour that everyone, whether marchers or passers-by, took part in.

I was at the parades last Saturday in Glasgow and Larkhall. I fully accept there is deplorable anti-social behaviour from the "blue bag" brigade to be found on the pavements. But I do not accept that those on parade habitually or generally behave like that. If there are any incidents I am happy to condemn them, but even the police would concede that the Orangemen do not behave inappropriately on parade, and theat the public order problems arise from the louts who follow the parade. Personally I'd be happy if the followers were all locked up for the day.

Sadly unpleasant behaviour is nothing new in Glasgow. Gordon Street at midnight on Saturday ain't pleasant. Society has a problem with alcohol and it seems unfair to scapegoat Orangeism for it.

Oh, if John Lea really is into genuine diversity then that has to include Orangeism, whether he despises it or not.

Donegal Secularist

“I actually taught in a 'Catholic' school. I remember teaching a lovely group of Muslim girls, many catholics- some practising and a few Protestants. None of them knew I wasn't Catholic, many staff were in mixed marriages and no-one ever told people to hate Protestants. Probably because there were so many there, presumably because they thought it was a good school”

I find that a very interesting claim TMO, simply because until very recently the Catholic Church in Scotland took a very fundamentalist line on who could teach in their schools. In contrast to Northern Ireland, where there has been a protestant headmasters for sometime of 2 prominent Catholic grammar schools and numerous protestant teachers in even the more hardline republican areas Catholic schools, Scotland still seems to be a fair way behind in this respect. Are you saying that you were not asked your religion before being appointed? In light of this article,
http://news.scotsman.com/education/Protestant-to-take-charge-of.4229207.jp
I would find that unusual if it were indeed the case.

Joe Strummer

-John Lea

You seem to have a problem deciphering plain English. Maybe it was that special ethos education at an apartheid school,eh.? But never mind.

Anyway, if I am perversely being tagged a "bigot" (sic) for my desire to see children of all races and creeds being educated together to learn from each other then let it be so.

I've also stated quite clearly and categorically in my earlier posts where the stem and root of sectarian and religious bigotry in Glasgow emanates,ie, institutionalised state sponsored sectarian apartheid in our education system. I won't see many disagreeing with me apart from those strange chracters with dodgy views on keeping the races and religions apart.

T. M. O.

Donegal Secularist,

I was never asked about my religion.

There were many Protestant teachers in the school already.

I was asked simply if I supported the ethos of the school. I did, no auto-da-fe required!

T. M. O.

JackJ

I've no idea which parts you wrote and which parts you didn't but as you quoted these views I presume you subscribe to them.

Your simplistic views on the battle of the boyne are un-nervingly ill-informed.
Anybody who makes sweeping statements about the battle of the boyne simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

Here's some facts to back up what I'm saying (that no-one has a monopoly of this moment in history

1 James I was in favour of freedom of conscience for all religions

2. William of Orange only tolerated Protestants with Presbyterians as second class citizens

3. The Pope celebrated Willam's victory with a Te Deum

4.The people of Dublin celebrated his victory with a new building style for houses and statues in his honour

5. James was nicknamed Seamus the Sh1t by the Catholic Irish

6. Irish republicanism started in Ulster and founded by Presbyterians upset by the Williamite settlement. So too was the home rule movement which such stars as Joseph Bigar
So you see the mainly Presbyterian Orange Order, by parading around celebrating the victory of King Billy do so with an absolute ignorance of their past.

And as for Orangemen themselves causing problems, well they don't have to - there's enough morons following behind to do that for them. And surely if the Orangemen were so disgusted as to the behavior of their followers, they would stop marching until community groups agreed that this could no longer take place.

Joe Strummer

- T.M.O.

If people of Ulster Protestant descent living in Scotland wish to publicly express their cultural /religious identity, just like any other minority groups, on the streets via the Orange Order they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Anyone who objects is simply exhibiting sectarianism and religious bigotry. This is now a pointless debate.

Donegal Secularist

There were many Protestant teachers in the school already.

So you say, and yet it's still headline news in July 2008 (see the link I posted earlier) when a protestant is appointed headmaster of a Catholic school.
You must admit there's something not quite adding up here....you think if you or one of your co-religionists had wanted promotion, your religion would have suddenly become a matter of importance to the Powers That Be?

Trafalagar

This debate just sounds like a good reason to give the Scots full independence. I'm amazed at the ongoing bigotry expressed. It's 2008 for God's sake.

T. M. O.

Donegal Secularist,

A Head Teacher is rather different to an ordinary teacher. To be perfectly honest with you I had no intention in staying within the system due to better salary and conditions at home not to mention that I feel at home in Dublin. Years ago in Irish Catholic schools the head teacher was always a member of the clergy, the past 20 years have been a period of transition. That Catholic schools in Scotland are going through a period of transition now was inevitable. I think that Morag McCreadie's appointment was a great move and hopefully will be permanent. A pratising Christian with a repsect for the school's ethos? Sounds like they got what they wanted.

Joe, if they want to celebrated their cultural identity, let them make Linen. It's a far more honest celebration of their short history than leading a crowd of thugs through the streets. Ulster Presbyterians make the very best in linen and don't you forget that!

Joe Strummer

-T.M.O.

Maybe the best way to highlight the job discrimination and glass ceiling against Protestants in RC schools in Glasgow is to balance up the process by barring RC's from promotion in non-denominational schools.? Only fair, I suppose.?

You're sounding a bit fascist now deciding on a community's behalf how they should celebrate their culture.

Try it out on St Patrick's day first then get back to me after the reaction to keeping them off the streets. lol

T. M. O.

Joe

You haven't been to a St Patricks day parade now have you? I hardly call the Lord Mayor in his/her carriages leading puppets, drag queens,screechy American cheer leaders, Brazilian dancers and Harley Davidsons a sectarian affair. To compare the Orange Order to that spectacle is frankly hillarious!

I puzzled at your logic, such that it is:

Why would you ban Roman Catholics from promotion in non-denominational schools?

Donegal Secularist

A Head Teacher is rather different to an ordinary teacher.

Well, obviously, but I still don't see why if they allow prods to teach their children, how is it such a big deal then for them to make the next step up and let a non-catholic run the place. If they are making such judgements on the basis of religious belief, as opposed to teaching ability and experience, leadership skills, then they are practising religious discrimination, pure and simple.

Now, I've got no idea if the Catholic school sector is funded by the state in Scotland as it is in Northern Ireland; if it is then they should be expected to follow the same guidelines on religious (and other)discimimation as schools in the secular state sector must follow.

Sectarianism and religious bigotry in Scotland is not a oneway road as you seem to have implied in earlier comments- if you genuinely want to see it removed from Scottish society,then you can't pick and choose which type you decide to shut your eyes to.

Craig Strachan

I see the SNP have chosen a man by the name of MASON as their candidate. Hmm...

Joe Strummer

- T.M.O.

You haven't been near Coatbridge in Lanarkshire around St Patrick's Day /Week / Month/ Year then.? lol

Violent drunks by the police vanload, vomit ridden streets, endless sectarianism.

As for your other question, at the moment Roman Catholic teachers in Glasgow are free to apply for promotion up to headmaster level in both denominational and non-denominational schools whilst Protestants and others are limited to non-denom establishments only. You approve of this job discrimination.?

T. M. O.

Donegal Secularist,

I don't have a problem with Scottish Catholic education because I don't have a problem with Irish Protestant education. I believe that minorities should not be expected to be subsumed but allowed their own identity to survive.

Keeping one's identity in a non-intimidating, non-agreessive, non-sumpremicist way is fine by me. What's your problem with this?

Donegal Secularist

My, my, we've gone all a bit touchy on this one- that charge of religious discrimination regarding prod headmasters in Catholic schools has obviously got to you.

Ok, you've asked for my problems with a school-system segregated on religious grounds.

Regarding your rather aggressively worded question; first of all, I’m a secularist but if "minorities", as you term them, wish to celebrate whatever greater being they wish to do so, on whatever day they wish to do so, then, fine...as long as it doesn't impinge on my own liberties and freedoms, it's no business of mine. But we don’t all survive in our own independent ethnic/national/religious bubble- we share society with those of a different viewpoint on many topics.

Is attending a school where most students, teachers and, it would appear, headmasters share the same brand of religion as us preparing us best for what we will later face in our adult life (unless your also advocating workplaces and neighbourhoods segregated along religious lines?- Hasn’t worked in Northern Ireland, can’t see it working here)

Children exist within many different spheres of influence- parental, religious, neighbourhood and being “forced” to share a classroom with those of another faith, ethnic background etc does not mean that your identity need disappear; the US and France, by and large, manage a secular schooling system- particularly in the former case, has that resulted in minorities being "subsumed"?

And rather ironically, those more bigotted elements of your own co-religionists that you clearly despise would be more than happy to ensure that good loyal Proddie kids are kept apart from the Papish influence; but they, like you, like the Catholic Hierarchy, are wrong in wanting to maintain sectarian division at what is one of the fundamental building blocks of our future society.

Craig Strachan

T.M.O.

"I believe that minorities should not be expected to be subsumed but allowed their own identity to survive."

Would you say that the British identity of most Southern Irish Protestants was subsumed after 1922?

T.M.O.

Craig,

Pro-union Irish protestants such as many of my ancestors were described themselves as Loyal Irish or Anglo-Irish. They didn't call themslves British because they didn't live in Britain. Read Louis MacNeice's humourous autobiography where as a child the rector's son decides to terrorise his English nanny by being 'awfully Irish and barbaric'!

I think that the different identity of Irish protestants is expressed in a general sense of Anglo-philia, a distrust of Fianna Fail and a hoard of other little nuances which are all quite minor, some of which are sporting.

The COI proportion of the population is sadly dwindling, much like the Jewish population. I suppose I am engaged to a Scottish baptist but so many friends and family haven't fallen in love with fellow anglicans and therfore will marry and ultimately raise Catholics. A shame, but it could conceivably be worse if they were intent on doing the opposite.

T.M.O.

Donegal Secularist

You seem to be like myself familiar with Ireland and Scotland. Answering these quesions shouldn't be a problem for you then.

How have the presence of Protestant Schools in the Republic of Ireland - special schools for a minority of the population - contributed to sectarianism in Ireland?

How are Catholic Schools in Scotland - special schools for a minority of the population - any different?

Unless I'm overlooking something truly significant your asnwers could only confirm that these schools aren't the problem.

They are however an easy target aren't they? I know that if I had to have a row with men of the cloth or sash wielding thugs which would be the easier option, but picking the easy option isn't brave, and it isn't right.

T.M.O.

Joe,

I don't have a problem with minority schools, they are not the cause of the problem.

I've never had the pleasure of a visit to Coatbridge. However, a cursory enquiry has informed me that getting drunk is probably the best way to deal with such a visit. In fact if I was forced to spend a festival day in Coatbridge I would probably get completely intoxicated. So to, I would expect would everyone else who has contributed to this forum, even you may become slightly tipsy over the odd Campari (bitter Orange, you'd love it) and soda.

So you see, the thought of Coatbridge being drowned in floods of vommit and alcohol is hardly surprising, though how that amounts to 'endless sectarianism' - well go on then, explain that too. I'll humour you!

Donegal Secularist

TMO

“How have the presence of Protestant Schools in the Republic of Ireland - special schools for a minority of the population - contributed to sectarianism in Ireland?”

If you’re talking about the couple of Free Presbyterian schools which have been set up in the border counties, the answer should be hopefully obvious. But I guess that’s not what you’re on about here and I also think you are not comparing like with like. As you are well aware, the Irish Free State basically entrusted their education system to the catholic church in 1922; protestants therefore did not have the option of attending a secular school. But did the small number of protestant schools, separating their kids from those of the wider community reduce sectarianism in the wider Irish society? No, they only led to the further isolation of their community and if you go on the demographics 1922-to the late 90s, they also most certainly did not help to protect and develop the Irish protestant entity within the Free state and Republic.

“How are Catholic Schools in Scotland - special schools for a minority of the population - any different?”

As explained above, the Catholics of Scotland have a different alternative to the protestants of the 26 counties; the Scottish state education sector is not run by the Church of Scotland.

“Unless I'm overlooking something truly significant your asnwers could only confirm that these schools aren't the problem.
They are however an easy target aren't they? I know that if I had to have a row with men of the cloth or sash wielding thugs which would be the easier option, but picking the easy option isn't brave, and it isn't right.”

The antics of the Orange Order, the religio/ethno-nationalism which lies at the basis of the Celtic/Rangers divide, the casual sectarianism present in the workplace, pubs etc are not the causes of the problem, only the symptons- remove the OO, present pc song-sheets for the Old Firm and you’ll still have sectarianism in Scottish society. You should be looking at the causes and one of those causes is the culture of separatism in places like Glasgow, as listed in the article neighbourhoods, pubs etc.
Does also separating the adults of the future at the school gates on the basis of religion help to address the problems that culture of separatism causes?

T.M.O.

There are Protestant schools in Ireland.

There are Catholic schools in England.

Neither country has experienced the kind of Sectarianism that exists in NI and Scotland.

The schools are not the problem.

Bigotry is, and that's learnt at things like Orange marches.

And as for the Irish Protestant identity, I suggest you come south and have a nice weekend in Dublin. Take in a fete in Donnybrook, a hockey match in Rathgar and top it all off with a coffee in the crypt of Christchurch after a well attended service. Then tell me about the Irish Protestant identity suffering.

Joe Strummer

-T.M.O.

Still no reply to the discrimination against Protestant teachers seeking promotion in RC schools. Your perennial silence thus condemns you. My work is therefore now done here. Enjoy the even bigger Orange Fest in Glasgow next year everyone and get educated.

T.M.O.

And you didn't respond my campari drive, though having read your posts in another forum I'm not surprised it went over your head!

And to answer your question, as if it needed answering, I don't have a problem with minority schools organising themselves as they choose. I believe that minority schools following a standard curriculum contribite to both cohesion and preserving community identity.

Allowing weirdly clad sumpremicist bigots unfettered access to the streets is a different matter. That's sectarianism.

Donegal Secularist

There are Protestant schools in Ireland.
There are Catholic schools in England.
Neither country has experienced the kind of Sectarianism that exists in NI and Scotland.
I never claimed that the ROI has and I know that England hasn’t. But that wasn’t the question you asked previously; schooling segregated along religious lines has contributed to sectarianism in the Free State and later in the RoI for the reasons I gave in the previous post. I’d also think it would be an interesting exercise to compare the number of catholic children in England who actually attend their church’s schools with the relevant figure in Scotland and Northern Ireland before coming to too firm aconclusion on this question.
“The schools are not the problem.”
They are not “the problem”, they are a contributing cause to “the problem” which later manifests itself in the bigotry seen on Orange marches and Old Firm games- it’s very much more difficult for kids to rail against the Fenian or Hun bastards when they share the same classroom and play on the same teams as those of the “offending” faith.
And as for the Irish Protestant identity, I suggest you come south and have a nice weekend in Dublin. Take in a fete in Donnybrook, a hockey match in Rathgar and top it all off with a coffee in the crypt of Christchurch after a well attended service. Then tell me about the Irish Protestant identity suffering.
Oh, so, that’s where all the prods from Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal have disappeared to the last 80 years or so, they’re all now inside the Castle, playing hockey,having a cappucino and no doubt finishing off with a picnic, watching cricket the Trinity- what a stereotypical, Dublin-centric, Irish Times view of what comprises Irish protestant identity.
“And to answer your question, as if it needed answering, I don't have a problem with minority schools organising themselves as they choose.”

Wasn’t addressed to me, but. if “faith” schools are paid out of taxpayers money, then there are basic common standards which they should adhere to and one of those is not making promotion dependent on the candidate’s religious/ethnic/national background. The fact that the Catholic church in Scotland has managed to get an opt-out on that basic principle is nothing short of a scandal and the fact that you would give them and presumably any other “minority” school a carte-blanche to discriminate on religious/ethnic/national ground has persuaded me that we’ve probably reached the end of our debate. You cannot pick and choose which religious discrimination and bigotry you’re happy to live with, it’s either all wrong or you’re a hypocrite.

T.M.O.

Donegal Secularist,

I'd love some evidence for this sectarianism in the Free State of which you speak. Given that no-one in my family (spread across Leinster) has ever spoken of it.

Taxpayers are entitled to an education for their children that they themselves want. Many Catholic and indeed Protestant Scots parents believe that Catholic schools provide a decent education. It's their choice and they are entitled to it. You can't force them and still claim to be a democrat.

You must find it so very frustrating that these schools are supported by non-catholics, that I, a non-catholic, happily worked in one and that never has proof emerged that they encourage bigotry.

That the minority schools are managed by the minority themselves is hardly surprising. It seems logical that their ethos would become unfocussed if they were run by someone not entirely familiar with it.

And yes, I do read the Irish Times, but so does anyone in the country with half a brain and that includes all who've received an excellent Irish state-subsidised Church of Ireland education!

nicodemus31

John Lea July 8th 10.03am quoting a Roman Catholic Glasgow City councillor: "Personally I am opposed to demonstrations of the divisions which are a curse on our community. Scotland should be inclusive and welcome our rich diversity of people and culture."

Does that not include the Orange Order too? For many the Order may represent a backwards-looking reliquary of hatred & bigotry. But their right to peacefully march is enshrined in the council's own byelaws, making it a criminal offence to "cross the Orange Walk"- an offence at one time vigorously pursued by the police. Strange that an apparently RC-dominated council has not sought to expunge such byelaws from the statute book...
That said, I don't blame Glasgow Protestants/Unionists from feeling "under siege"- their views have been systematically crushed by the Labour/SNP hegemony to the extent that a foreigner visiting the country would not recognise that Scotland was, in fact, still part of the UK, such is the dearth of Union Flags flying from buildings. To say nothing of the woeful standard of "separatist" broadcasting (in the BBC's name) such as Newsnight Scotland etc in which there is little platform for the Unionists.
The way things are going, it won't just be the Orange Order which will become marginalised in the coming years, it'll be this "great little country" or whatever it is Alex Salmond is describing his fiefdom as these days.
A final aside. When Celtic won the Scottish Premier League title a few weeks ago, some wag took it upon himself to hoist a couple of Irish Tricolours on the (vacant) flagpoles outside the East Dunbartonshire council HQ in Kirkintilloch. They were removed within hours, despite it being a Bank Holiday Monday. This fact made page 3 of the Daily Record. Says it all really.

John Lea

I wasn't going to (and I didn't want to) contribute further to this debate, but felt I needed to respond to Nicodemus by asking this question: because a councillor (or anyone else for that matter) states that they find the Orange Walk distasteful and divisive, why do you automatically assume that they are Roman Catholic? Interesting presumption to make. It was my local councillor who responded. I didn't enquire (nor do I care) which faith he practices (if any).

bluecurious

What a depressing thread. Still, it has been shaped mostly by the appalling Joe Strummer, who seems to be a refugee from some Rangers Fanzine or some ludicrous organ like the Orange Torch. English readers should be aware that any discussion of this nature in Scotland is very quickly hijacked by these agents of ancient prejudice. No wonder most Catholics in Scotia just want to keep their heads down.

Good article anyway, Fraser!

nicodemus31

John Lea: Sorry about that-I just re-read your post & what I have done is to read your first point repudiating the notion that GCC is "infiltrated by Catholics" & then gone on and made myself out to be some kind of bigot myself! Not at all the case- I am C of E, born in England, but a naturalised Scot. Apologies for my 2=2=5 type error- my first point did not really further the debate, then.

deks

Yees ir aw too bitter tae ken thi truth!!!