CoffeeHousers' Wall, 14 July - 20 July

C Powell

I put this in response to James Forsyth's post on how the US is dealing with UK libel laws and free speech. But it probably makes more sense here.

If you're concerned about free speech, then why not look closer to home, specifically, the Guardian which likes to trumpet its "comment is free" blog space but which censors those views it disagrees with, even when they do not contravene its Talk policy i.e. they are not offensive etc. Specifically, when commentators have criticised the Guardian's support for the most radical (and dangerous) Islamists - witness the endless columns by members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the space given to those promoting Islam Expo, its failure to say anything about the attacks on blogs such as Harry's Place by Hamas supporters etc., (and all this in a week when Channel 4 showed a programme about what bombs in tube trains actually means) - and pointed out that this is hardly compatible with the Guardian's self-proclaimed belief in liberal values, it refuses to allow such views an airing. Why? Too close to home, perhaps? When Islamo-fascism is finally defeated, the Guardian will have a dishonourable place as one of the media outlets appeasing this latest incarnation of fascism, fashionable to some on the Left because it relates to the currently favoured minority and allows them to indulge in their hatred of the West. It's about time the Guardian's hypocrisy and sanctimonious morality was exposed. If it wants to give free speech to Islamists then it should equally allow free speech to those who oppose it and be prepared to take criticism about its editorial policy on the chin. You would do us a service if you investigated this more thoroughly and forced the Guardian to explain itself.

This is close to my heart because last week, in response to a truly awful column by one of the speakers at Islam Expo, I put this comment in which, after 8 people had recommended it and others had responded favourably, was removed.

"Once upon a time there was a newspaper, called the Guardian, I remember, which believed in liberal democracy and values and understood what these meant.
Now we have something which, no matter what the news is or what's going on in the world, never fails to have endless articles and blogs, every bloody day, from the same old commentators, representative of the most extreme and fundamentalist group within Islam, trying - ever more hysterically and ludicrously - to claim that Islam is a religion of peace, that there is no reason to link it with violence (pull the other one), that sharia law is wonderful (ditto) and that there is no threat from groups of people (Islamists note, not Muslims) who simply do not share our liberal democratic values, who in many cases are actively hostile to those values and who, in yet more cases, are using terror to achieve their aims (see the posts above who have listed the many, many instances of violence perpetrated by Islamists in the West and elsewhere in recent years).
And the Madrassa Guardian simply does not understand why those of us who used to like the old liberal Guardian are repulsed by its present willingness to appease a fascistic ideology just because it has an Islamist colouring and its naivety about the very real threat such an ideology poses to the West and to those freedoms, values and principles it once used to hold dear.
As for you, Soumaya: look around you. The threat is reported because there is a threat and has been since we found people on our street wanting a writer killed because he said rude things about your religion. No-one cared two hoots about Muslims or what the Koran said until then. Change the behaviour and the reports will be different."

Given the crying need for a moderate Muslim leadership, what is the responsibility of the press - and others - with regard to those who - on the extremist end - are seeking to be perceived as the leaders of, or at least, the interlocutors for Muslims in the UK?

Verity

We Ain't Seen Rien Yet
I have said for several years that the EU as presently constructed, won't hold.

But rather than freedom from the yoke, I simply think the yoke will be constructed differently.

As presently fashioned, it is too undemocratic for nothern, democratic nations. Iceland had the first Parliament in the world. All of Scandinavia has long been breezy, fiercely democratic and independent-minded. The Norwegians declined to join the EU (although they're still bound by all the same petty regulations if they want to trade with it; but still, it was a gesture). The Germans are an independent-minded bunch, as are the Dutch, the Irish and the British. I think these countries will hive their own trading bloc off the EU.

The second grouping, I have always thought, would be the Mediterranean countries where there is a similar closeness of mindset.

This has come a large step closer.

France has been pursuing hegemony over N Africa for as long as anyone can remember. Now President Sarkozy has formally called for agreements between 20 states (including Israel) in the Levant.

If this results in a schism and then a hiving off of southern Europe from the EU, fine. But if it involves integrating the Levant into the EU, Britain should get out as a matter of urgency.

It's bad enough being an open door and free cash machine for Pakistanis and, inexplicably, Somalis - but the notion of being overrun by immigrants with rights of settlement by yet millions more practitioners of an alien, unreformed religion from Libya,Algeria and Morocco doesn't bear thinking of.

Something tells me the French public is not going to like this.

Just now, Sarkozy is proposing a loose, informal arrangement. We can all intuit how long that will last.

Craig Strachan

It was nice to see Sarah Standing's heartfelt recommendation of Mamma Mia. I'd like to see more cultural comment in Coffee House. Personally, I buy the magazine as much for the book/wine/art/movie reviews at the back as for the moaning about how everything's going to shit in politics and economics. Coffee Housers, myself included, seem unduly prone to moaning - about Brown, NuLab, the economy, crime, the EU, Islamofacism etc.

Nice to lighten it up once in a while...

Tiberius

America Alone.

Got my signed copy today as my summer holiday read. Mark added the riposte, "it's time to save Britain"!

Watch out, Dinnerjacket, the noose is closing.

Verity

Tiberius - let us hear on The Wall what you think of it!

Tiberius

Will do in time, Verity. I have read Celsius 7/7 and Londonistan, but Mark's style should be somewhat different.

James Forsyth

Craig, Couldn't agree more. Do see Clemency Burton-Hill's latest cultural picks and Clive's blog has a definite cultural bent. But this is something we're trying to do more of on Coffee House and it is good to know there's an appetite for it. Best, James Forsyth

Verity

Oh, James, the appetite on this blog is for politics! If we want reviews, we can get them on a daily basis from the newspapers or we can read Clive Davis, which I don't.

Give Clemency Burton her own blog, but keep Coffee House a political blog. Finding a place to have political discussions with other politics fanatics is a rarity. Culture's everywhere.

Frankly, you didn't even get that good a response for 10 outstanding places to visit in London. Next you'll be covering favourite holiday destinations. In fact,Fraser's piece on Easyjet and cheap long distance calls came perilously close ...

Don't dilute the product.

Verity

James - ONE person wrote in and you respond "it is good to know there's an appetite for it".

And do you think all the American readers you've begun to attract give a monkey's about what's playing at the Proms or what's on anywhere in Britain?

Derah Yasque

Can't believe that none of the team has let us loose on the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac situation.
Can these two children's party performers really hold sway over half the housing stock of the US?

Craig Strachan

Verity,

Well, Mamma Mia is also now playing in Los Angeles, where I live. And I do quite often refer to reviews in The Speccie when planning trips to London.

So you might say I'm one American reader who gives a monkey's.

Verity

Craig Strachan - you are one of a very, very few Americans who are "planning trips to London" - as in, probably around 30,000/50,000/200,000 a year. How many seek guidance from The Speccie? How many have heard of The Speccie?

If they dilute the unique nature of The Speccie blog, and make it even more confusing, and God knows, the site is so badly designed without further whistles and bells, I feel it won't be to their advantage.

My opinion.

At least they've now put the comments at the bottom of a thread rather than upside down.

Tiberius

My pet scheme for Cameron, as previously suggested, gains some ground.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/7506689.stm

Craig Strachan

I was thinking about Gordon Brown comparing himself to an "older, wiser" Heathcliff - quite a revealing self-image.

I see him more as Chauncey Gardner.

Craig Strachan

Verity,

Well, planning a trip isn't the same as taking one, is it?

Verity

As The Wall is a free-for-all, I would like to note that James and Frasier have done a bang-up job of keeping The Coffee House lively and interesting - just the two of them - while Pete's away on holiday. And the moderation hasn't suffered any logjams that I've noticed, either.

Just a little vote of appreciation.

Derah Yasque

Just learned what Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac really stand for. Boring.

Back to my colouring book.

Angus

Ok, ok, politics...GEO-politics...Iran...discuss. Ahmadinejad is not the real power - he simply a stooge for the Ayatolla. True or false? Is Obama promising to pull troops out of Iraq as he feels the US is under-powered to help Israel in the event they strikes Iran and Iran strikes back unless he either pulls out of Iraq or Afghanistan? On the other hand, if the 44th Pres was McCain, where we he find the firepower/budget (same thing?) to help the US' favourite son, Israel?
A lot of question marks but, as VErity says; this IS a political gas-station. ;-)

TGF UKIP

Tiberius, wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Dave to embrace the Swindon speed camera move. Speed cameras seem much loved by the agitating harridan classes, a group Dave seems very respectful to and fearful of. Polly probably quite approves of speed cameras too hence don't hold your breath.

Dave being Dave, though, it will all come down to what the focus groups think.

We're all entitled to our dreams, though.

THX1138

Nothing on the Coffee House about the kangaroo court that was the FAP report. Even Boris is running a mile, looks like he's going native over at city hall.

GS London

I recently went to City Hall on a visit (I'm a trainee Architect) - and found out it's rubbish. One of Foster's bigges't bloopers in fact. It's uncleanable, the detailing is shoddy, the climate control system errs toward nuisance and it'll take 280 years to repay the cost of the solar panels recently fitted. Add to that the fact that it has required consistent supplimentary and replacement structural and facade works, you get the picture. If Boris want's to cut waste, demolishing City Hall would be a start.

The Happy Carbon Footprint

It's certainly a hideous building - intentionally ugly and destructive.