A state funeral for Thatcher wouldn't be as divisive as the left think 

Tina

Your headline should read:

'A state funeral for Thatcher wouldn't be as divisive as the left HOPE'

David C

It will be for the left.

Chris

I'm a big Maggie fan, but I think your comparison is wrong. People were respectful at Reagan's funeral because he was a former head of state and it is the norm to have a state funeral for those in the US. Maggie was not a head of state and it is not the norm to have civilian state-funerals over here. Its uniqueness will ensure it's controversial.

Silent Hunter

Am I alone in thinking it amusing that someone called 'TINA' is commenting on a 'Thatcher' story?

:O)

Perhaps she had No Alternative.

CS

Reagan was a president though and Americans have always had an unusual veneration for the office.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the only people who loathe MT are bien pensant Guardian writers.

However much one may think that the reforms of the 80s were necessary, there are large tracts of the country where the decade is remembered only as a time of unemployment and suffering and where not a great deal has changed since.

There might be a chance that more of them would take an objectively historical view of MT had those years of hardship paved the way for decent jobs and social conditions.

But the truth is that the sort of jobs the "golden economic legacy" left these areas of the country are plenty of cheap, insecure jobs tossing burgers.

Social division may not be solely the responsibility of the 80s but the fact remains that the 80s governments were peculiarly noted for not concealing the fact that they didn't care a damn for those people left behind by their reforms.

MT may have been a historic PM. She may even have been a great PM. But she was a thoroughly divisive figure. A state funeral should be granted on the basis that the vast majority of the country feels that it is merited and that will never be the case for MT in the forseeable future.

If you do venerate MT, what do you honestly want for her? A private dignified funeral or an OTT spectacular where the troops and police lining the route are too busy holding back the throwers of rotten fruit to stand to attention?

Tina

Silent Hunter, please explain I don't get it!

Ray

Was not Winston Churchill equally as divisive a figure in his heyday? Yet he was rightly accorded a state funeral.

Besides, if we on the Right can gladly accept that, by virtue of his achievements, Clement Attlee was one of the towering prime ministers of the twentieth century (however much we might disagree with Labour policies), why can the Left not be equally magnanimous and accept that - love her or loathe her - Mrs T also powerfully transformed the country she led?

Paul B

The great lady deserves whatever type of funeral her daughter deems appropiate.I suspect that if it were to be a State funeral, then the left will show their true colours, which if my suspicions were correct would not reflect them in a good light to any decent thinking person.

Lets hope that the sad day is many years away and that she lives to see a further radical Conservative administration David.

John

Attlee greater than Thatcher? These idiots at the Mirror have lost the plot. Not too surprising, of course, for leftoid rats when their communist government is finally sinking.

cat osb

There is an article online in this week's edition of the 'New Statesman' in which someone calling themselves 'Ed Waugh' has written a clever, but rather cruel, parody of a left wing rant against the idea of a State Funeral for MT.

CG

It's a very bad idea. I'm not a leftie but I can see that it will be a day of protests and so on, as Maggie is still very unpopular in some parts, and not just with professional lefties. To give her a State Funeral is to put her on a par with Churchill which is pretty stupid really.

Liam Murray

Remember American presidents are heads of state also - that colours the comparison you're making.

I wouldn't dispute Mrs Thatcher's impact or that she shaped the world - I just don't think a sufficiently strong case has been made yet that we break our tradition of not giving PMs a state funeral. Since the only benchmark (this century) is Churchill I don't think anyone can seriously suggest their achievements and significance are comparable.

In this context it's the clamour FOR a state funeral that's the more provocative and partisan than those arguing that we simply uphold our traditions....

Scott S.

If you all can't puzzle through to a state funeral for Lady Thatcher, send her across the Atlantic and the United States will, with infinite gratitude, do the work for you.

Nicholas

"why can the Left not be equally magnanimous"

They don't do magnanimous, probably because their whole creed stems from envy, spite and a bright, shining lie.

Of course it will be divisive. Just because there is a bolshy mob ranting doesn't mean its views have to be taken seriously. Napoleon had to give the Paris mob the famous whiff of grapeshot before they got the message. A state funeral for MT would be the symbolic burial of of socialism too.

Hysteria

State funeral not appropriate - this should be a family affair. Reagan was head of state - different issue. Churchill was a special case due to WW2.

Damon

The debate is irrelevant, Maggie is no mere mortal

Owain M

I don't think Mrs Thatcher would want to be interred in Washington DC - or, in fact, anywhere in America. Someone should ask her what she would want.

bergen

The last prime ministerial state funeral before Churchill was Gladstone in 1898 so it is a very rare honour.Although Lloyd George wished to be buried in his home village in North Wales in any event,I do not think it was envisaged even for him,the only other twentieth century prime minister incontestably the greater.So I do not believe it to be appropriate.

Chris

A bad idea. Mrs T was not head of state and no Winston Churchill despite her vainglorious attempts to compare herself to him. But if it does go ahead, the organisers should turn to the classic Wizard of Oz for the music "Ding dong the Witch is dead". Then we can all put on our dancing shoes and head for her grave .... LOL

Faceless Bureaucrat

CS:

"However much one may think that the reforms of the 80s were necessary, there are large tracts of the country where the decade is remembered only as a time of unemployment and suffering and where not a great deal has changed since."

Yes, if only we could have a sustained period of Socialist Government in the UK, then this dreadful anomally would surely be addressed swiftly...

John

Nicholas, spot on. The whining and envy from the left are truly ugly, from truly ugly people. Their ranting is totally unimportant.

Thatcher was easily as great and important a PM as Gladstone. A state funeral for him makes one for her a very right and proper thing, unless she herself prefers otherwise.

John

Yes, I mentioned ugly posts from ugly envious people - and right on cue we have Chris popping up.

John

We have, FB - complete with scorched earth and devastation from Two Jags No Brain and McGoon.

Trumpeter Lanfried

I think she should have a state funeral. The procession should be led by the 365 economists who urged her to return to the policies of Sunny Jim Callaghan.

Arthur Scargill should follow the hearse accompanied by the entire membership of the National Union of Mineworkers in two taxis.

A memorial service should also be held in every college in Oxford. Attendance should be compulsory for all those members of the University who voted against her honorary degree.

Not that I wish to be divisive.

Arthur Scargill should bring up the rear - in chains.

Another Chris

I'd just like to say, since I post here from time to time as Chris (because it's my name) that I'm not the scumbag named Chris who has posted above.

Yes Another Chris

Ditto, I posted third here. Must come up with a unique variation on my name.

Herbert Thornton

Trumpeter Lanfried -

I like your suggestions, but what if Arthur Scargill dies first? If he does, my thought will be - now she's seen him off too.

Commondog

I too, will always have special memories of Mrs T: they say you never forget the person who first shagged you.

Helped shape the world we live in right enough, and what a grand place it is.

Also, the reverence shown upon the death of Ronald Regan, was a symptom of American patriotism. Don't count on any such British version showing up, as it has been whittled and withered by years of 'education'.

Wilfred

To Bergen:

Lloyd George 'incontestably' great?

I think not. That rascal nearly cost us The Great War. He was the weasel who kept scores of thousands of trained soldiers in the UK at the time of the great German offensive in 1918.

Because of this, the British Third and Fifth Armies were badly under-strength when the Germans threw the whole weight of their massive offensive against them. The PBI of these armies were thrown back 40 miles in 10 days, which led to the most desperate crisis of the war, and caused Haig to issue his famous "With our backs to the wall ..." order of the day.

This is the only time a British CIC has EVER ordered an entire British army to fight to the death.

Poor Thomas Atkins doing what had to be done, despite the best efforts of his weak vacillating and amoral politicians to hamstring him. Sound familiar?

CS

***Yes, if only we could have a sustained period of Socialist Government in the UK, then this dreadful anomally would surely be addressed swiftly...***

Totally irrelevant point, Faceless Bureaucrat. I wasn't arguing that another government would have improved things. And I speak as someone who voted for her in the 80s.

The fact remains, however, that "some" of the policies pursued in the 80s were spiteful and completely unnecessary for reforming the economy and MT should bear her share of the blame for those. How about trying to use Scotland as a guinea pig for the poll tax? What was that other than a spiteful spit at those who disgareed with her?

The governments of the 80s were almost single-handedly responsible for the fact that there is now one Tory MP in Scotland. Another of MT's glorious triumphs? If the Union does fall apart, it'll have far more to do with MT than with the devolution of the late 90s.

Some of you should have tried living through the 80s in one of the industrial cities of the North or Wales or Scotland at the sh1tty end of MT's revolution and, however much you might recognise that a lot of the pain was necessary and unavoidable, you might have a far less messianic vision of the woman.

It's not just some ivory tower minority at The Guardian that hates MT. It's a significant minority across the country. And there are large swathes of the country where, even if they don't want to dance on her grave, people remember MT as a bitterly divisive figure.

State funerals should be reserved for those who "greatness" or merit is acknowledged by the overwelming majority of the country, not just by those who emerged from the 80s as winners.

Want to screw up even further what little remains of social cohesion in this country. Try having one half of the country watching the other half elevating MT to godhead as they parade her through the streets of London.

P.S. Lloyd George shouldn't have been buried in Wales. The man was a Lancastrian.

Verity

Trumpeter - I enjoyed your scenario.

Tina - Agreed.

John

Some people remember her as a 'divisive' figure, which she wasn't, only because they have been brainwashed by envious little sh1ts like Foot, Kinnock and the baskets Scargill and Benn. I don't regard that as an argument against a state funeral.

Commondog

Well said CS.

The nostalgic adoration of the Thatcher era will be short-lived. In the long term the true picture will form, of a time when indolence was made to appear more worthy than graft; when endeavour was made subservient to guile. This in a nation which paid its way by making things.

'The Service Industries' would be the way forward such that Nigel Lawson could boast that we didn't have low-tech jobs in our sights, rather we were to tout for the no-tech business. (To applause) Overnight the message went out, the apprenticeship system was dumped and all that costly training was avoided. Quids in.

For fifteen years. Then guess what, no plumbers, brickies sparkies, fitters etc. Oh well, open a box of foreign workers.

Meanwhile, all our apprentices are sat on the couch supping Special Brew, scratching cards and effin and blindin at Jeremy Kyle.

But then we've got such a strong finance sector to carry it all along. Oops.

You only sell the family silver once, and that's just what the Thatcher contribution was to the nation.

Silent Hunter

Tina:

What?.....seriously? LOL

You've never heard Thatcher called TINA?

T...there, I....is, N...No, A...alternative.

That's what she used to tell them all in the cabinet when she wanted her own way......so they called her.....TINA!

How ironic that you should call yourself that and have no idea about Thatchers nickname. :O)

Unless of course.......it IS your name.

As far as Thatcher's state funeral is concerned......for some reason a Private Eye cartoon remains in my minds eye to this day.....

A bust of Mrs T. on a cairn erected to the war dead of the Falklands conflict with the simple engraved message below...

"They died to save her face"

Rather says it all, don't you think?

CS

***Some people remember her as a 'divisive' figure, which she wasn't, only because they have been brainwashed by envious little sh1ts like Foot, Kinnock and the baskets Scargill and Benn. I don't regard that as an argument against a state funeral.***

John, if you did live in one of the communities economically devastated in the 80s, you didn't think that MT was a figure around whom the nation was joyously uniting, only to be brainwashed out of that opinion by Foot or Benn.

You seem typical of what's most loathsome about the Tory ascendancy of the 80s - ideology blind to the suffering of your fellow citizens and an I'm alright Jack contempt for those at the bottom of the sh1theap that you were piling up.

What propelled us into building up such a huge debt mountain in this country if not the conversion of the economy to the service sector which relies entirely on people spending on a whim rather than actually producing anything?

If anything disqualifies MT for a state funeral, it's not that she caused damage to the social conhesion of the country. It's the relish with which she an her acolytes did it.

Mick

Well said Commondog, Agree whole heartedly.
Why does the woman who created our 'me, me me' society, raped UK manufacturing, and got us into a fradulent war merit a state funeral>

Steve

Just a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea. Dunno if anyone else hear is au fait with the idea of "grief inflation" which is most notable with 1 minute silences, Once it was reserved only for Armistice day, but these days its doled out pretty much willy-nilly, indeed at football matches these days, they might as well have a generic 1 minutes silence for anything bad thats happened during the week. As they seem to be almost a weekly occurence now. Ditto with state funerals for us plebs. Start handing them out even for the very best reasons, and very quickly you will have Whitehall paralysed every week (maybe no bad thing) as a solemn cavalcade for whichever junior minister, civil service chair polisher from 30 years ago has popped their clogs recently

Commondog

Silent Hunter.

I would like to think that yes, you are indeed alone in thinking.

Silent Hunter

Commondog:

Hmmmm?

An enigmatic post....to be sure. ;O)

Michael Organe, England

There is only one reason why Labour would want to give Maggie a state funeral; if they don't then Tony can't have one either.