CoffeeHousers' Wall, 21 July - 27 July

Tiberius

Employment law and the benefits system.

Here's a real story.

We have a welder, aged 63, who has been with us for 4 years. Recently the quality and quantity of his output has been so poor that we, over a number of months and in consultation with our solicitors, have been engaging with disciplinary meetings with him.

Having issued a final written warning to him, he once again produced work fit only for the scrap bin. When notified of this work, he left the factory, went to his doctor, and has obtained three successive sick notes of two weeks each. While he is on sick leave, we cannot hold the meeting at which we could dismiss him.

From minutes of the meetings, we know he wishes to leave, acknowledging his poor workmanship, but cannot give us notice because he would not be immediately entitled to benefits (I'm assuming he doesn't think he can find alternative work). He has asked us to sack him (when he would be entitled to benefits), but we are not allowed to because a) we are under a legal obligation to rehabilitate him workwise, and b) we would certainly lose any tribunal hearing in such circumstances.

It's easier to get a divorce.

And now that he is down to receiving SSP only, he has informed us that he is going to claim constructive dismissal, on the grounds that our production director is younger than him, and has overwhelmed him causing his stress. He, of course, has nothing to lose with such unjustified action, but we will lose time, and an unquantifiable amount of money on legal advice and, probably, a settlement with no just basis other than we are employers.

Thanks, Blair, for the social chapter, and thanks to the BMA for a membership who are complicit in driving up industry costs which keep loafers in the style in which they aspire to be accustomed.

Lord Elvis of Paisley

I'm just wondering if James Purnells timing over propsed changes to benefits might have an effect on voting intentions in Glasgow East. With something like 50% of the electorate in that constituency on benefits, perhaps Mr Purnell would have been better waiting a week before announcing that some people may have to work to get their benefits. D'oh!

Hysteria

July 20th, 2008 3:07am

lifted this from the Times article on the topic of Union representation to the Labour Party.

"A Labour source said: “We govern in the interests of the whole government – not just one section.”

VERY interesting Freudian slip!

Hysteria

unless , of course, Purnell knows exactly what he is doing....?

Elizabeth

I am sure you didn't miss me whilst I was away last week.
Just thought you may all like to start the new week with a short video of George Galloway in full flight. I agree with every word he says, moreover.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/375.html
Entertaining and educating, I promise.

NorthernJohn

How about this from Politicshome.com:

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has today been accused of breaking his own ministerial code by publishing 10 written statements on the last day of business before Parliament breaks for the summer recess.

Paragraph 9.3 of the Ministerial Code of Conduct, states that ‘every effort should be made to avoid leaving significant announcements to the last day before a recess’.

In total, there are 30 written ministerial statements released today, including announcements of gifts received by ministers and guests entertained at the public expense at Chequers.

Commenting, Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker said, “The Prime Minister has violated his own Ministerial Code of Conduct 10 times in one day. It seems Gordon Brown is as addicted to spin and media manipulation as Tony Blair was.

“Today’s order paper shows 30 written statements being shoved out together, in clear violation of the rules.

“This is a clear attempt to bury bad news by releasing it all together just as MPs are breaking up for the summer recess. It is the same New Labour and the same old spin.”

Elizabeth

Even more upsetting to me was Gordon Browns performance in Israel.
Talk about bended knee and swearing fealty.
He is perfectly free to do it on a personal level but he doesn't do it for me and I am sure I am not alone in objecting to what appeared to me - committing our military to Israel's defence.
Our young men and women serve this country and its security (though I haven't a clue as to what they are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq, perhaps they are already serving Israeli interests?) - but to be committed to serving in defense of a foreign state is absolutely a non starter - or should be. We have no treaty obligation.

Tiberius

Moment of the week for Andrew: "Geoff Boycott and Ian Botham shock: they AGREE!"

Normally they wouldn't agree on the time of day, but the Darren Pattinson selection controversy has united them.

Aidan

I see that Crossrail has finally got through Parliament again. It's a great wasted opportunity that its route does not go through St Pancras. Passengers wanting to join the Eurostar will have to leave Crossrail at Farringdon and carry their luggage to either the Thameslink or the Metropolitan/Circle/Hammersmith & City line, adding at least another 20 minutes to their journey. Surely even now it isn't too late to change one small section of the route

Al Faturd

Tiberius.

He's two years off pensioning for God's sake, and he's obviously burnt out. Can't you just make him the offer he so obviously wants?
He can't be hoping for much after just 4 years.

Verity

I see that Bobby Jindal's name is being bruited about as a running mate for John McCain.

OK, he's not really a national name yet, but you look at the alternatives and I think Jindal would work. Americans, with good reason, like Rudy Guiliani. But he's in his sixties (which wouldn't be so important if McCain were younger. But this would be 71-year old and 64-year old running mates.) And they have both had health problems.

Mitt Romney, again, a 60-year old running with a 71-year old. If McCain were younger, the Veep's age wouldn't be so important.

Bobby Jindal was born in 1971. Thirty-seven years of age. Assuming McCain will not stand for a second term, this means Bobby Jindal, a brilliant (Rhodes Scholar) Indian, with a beautiful Indian wife, would be 41 years of age and have had four years of training for the top job. He could be nominated for the Reps in 2012.

Unlike Obama, he doesn't need a teleprompter to sound coherent. And he isn't touched by the sleaze that surrounds Obama.

He looks great!

Tiberius

Al F: why should we? He's already cost us a fortune in lost production and management time. You appear to adhere to the uninformed view that employers should be a government-enforced adjunct of the welfare state.

Elizabeth

The secret I share with the creator of the X files.

I too read Major Donald Keyhoe, US Air force, in the 50's and have never doubted since.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1037471/Apollo-14-astronaut-claims-aliens-HAVE-contact--covered-60-years.html

Tiberius

Are you an abductee, Elizabeth?

Verity

ANOTHER OBAMA PORKY This from the great American blog Little Green Footballs:

Obama continued: "Now, in terms of knowing my commitments, you don’t have to just look at my words, you can look at my deeds. Just this past week, we passed out of the U.S. Senate Banking Committee, which is my committee, a bill to call for divestment from Iran, as a way of ratcheting up the pressure to ensure that they don’t obtain a nuclear weapon."

But Obama is not a member of the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee. Obama just made that up so he could count the committee’s action as one of “my deeds.”

Here's the link: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30733_Another_Soon-To-Be-Nuanced_Statement_from_Obama

This confirms my personal belief that Obama is really not very bright. He has coasted on good looks, an elegant appearance and a sharp, opportunistic eye. He can't even talk extemporaneously.

No one of this calibre could have won the editorship of the Harvard Law Review on merit. I am convinced he was a beneficiary of "positive discrimination", which is, of course, discrimination with an adjective.

He is self-regarding and greedy and, frankly, not very bright.

Elizabeth

No

Puncheon

On Obama. Has he produced a genuine birth certificate yet, showing that he was in fact born in the USA? I thought that so far all he had produced was an afidavit from someone claiming to have seen such a document.

Al Faturd

Tiberius.

You have put two and two together and made something other than four here. Put simply, I am not party to the notion you describe.

Of course business has to look to the bottom line but with some allowances surely?

Besides, isn't there sound business reasoning which would say just cut your losses and hire a younger more productive worker? (BTW are things really that bad that you had to hire a 59 year old to do such a physically demanding job?)

Or is there now an ego clash going on by which the company need to be seen to win, regardless of the management costs? The 'why should we' does suggest a mindset which is switched to conflict mode.

Tiberius

Al F: in brief.

I'm pleased you agree with me over the difference between welfare and employment.

With querulous employees, giving an inch costs you a mile - like giving in to naughty children or Islamists.

We may well hire a younger replacement if Age Discrimination legislation allows. The guy applied for the job BTW - he wasn't coerced, and was competent at the time.

Ego; no. Give in, and it sets an example for the next skiver who fancies his chances (and there are many who have Firsts in employment law). We were 99% on the way to a proper, legal resolution to this matter, when the doctor stepped in with his blank cheque sicknotes. The minute he comes back to work, we can finish the 1% after spending 9 months doing broadly what you suggest, but within the law, and without setting the wrong precedent.

Al Faturd

I think we are on the same wavelength basically and I especially take your point on the message as would be read by others.

Tiberius

Yes; and I have no difficulty in being asked to justify what I say, AF.

I don't know your line of work, but anyone would need to know all the details of this case to understand just how awful it has been.

Verity

BOBBY JINDAL I see that on Town Hall poll, 11 per cent of respondents say McCain should choose Governor Jindal as his running mate. Sarah Palin (Governor of Alaska) gets the same percentage.

Coming in top is 61-year old Mitt Romney with 37%.

I still think that a 71-year will not have his candidacy enhanced by having a 61-year old as a running mate.

I am betting that the Rep party will try to make 37-year old Governor Jindal see sense.

I see the choice of a running mate being critical for the Reps in this election.

Verity

Puncheon - I sent a reply in to you around eight hours ago. The missing birth certificate was a canard. His birth certificate is real. If it had been phony, or the affadavit had been phony, would he have put it about that his middle name is Hussein?

Puncheon

Verity - thanks for the low-down on Obama's birth cert. I thought it an odd story, since I am sure that Hillary for one would have exploited it to the full if it had had any substance.

Al Faturd

Tiberius.

My line of work...well that's what made me enquire about the difficulties you describe.

I am a maintenance joiner which is at times quite physically demanding, and at 12 years younger than your problem worker I have started to struggle a bit. I can envisage how he might feel.

The ideal solution is to find something a little easier, but the minute your CV is stained by the declaration, 'age 50', it's so difficult to get people to take you seriously.

Best of luck anyway to you and to your 'colleague'.

Verity

Puncheon - Obviously Hillary knew of this rumour, but kept her powder dry, in case it was correct.

I personally have not counted Hillary out of this race. Obama's snubbing wounded servicemen in a military hospital in France because he wouldn't be allowed to troop round the wards with an entourage and an army of photographers would not have played well at home. They respect their military in the US. This showed disgraceful,inept and immature judgement on his part. He had a fit of the sulks because he couldn't be a star.

Puncheon

Verity - Although I know very little about US politics (as you know!) I have thought for some time that the longer the campaign goes on the less convincing Obama will appear - the advantage of the long-drawn out US electoral system, I guess. I haven't seen the odds recently, but I wouldn't mind having a few fivers on an eventual McCain victory. What happened to the idea of Hillary being Obama's running mate?

Verity

Puncheon - Obama will continue to appear viable and indeed, lordly, to the people who have a lefty agenda. Obama himself doesn't personally care about "change you can believe in" except by way of "change which will get me into office".

Oh! I'll call my airplane CHANGE! Because I have inexplicably raised $350m. And John McCain has something like $4m. How did I get all this money?

I dunno. Just lucky, I guess.

Puncheon, Hillary as Obama's running mate? Does the term "hell may freeze over" have a resonance?

If the inexperienced, egotistical, silly, cocky Obama got in with Hillary as his VP, she would EAT HIS LUNCH. Within one year, Hillary and Bill would be running the White House.

Trust me.

My opinion, he's weak. He got to be the editor of the Harvard Law Review through the conduit of "reverse discrimation".

He has had zero accomplishments since then. Except operating in the murky world of the Chicago political machine, and throwing disposable people "under the bus". That space "under the bus", which includes his own mother, his political mentor and many others is getting a bit crowded. They're going to jack up the bus for future Obama throwees.