Maybe not so courageous

Verity

As I have posted elsewhere on this site, the Dalai Lama has already stated that he is no longer seeking a free Tibet, acknowledging the material benefits and comforts that being part of China has brought.

What His Holiness seeks now is religious and cultural autonomy. So all those busybody Free-Tibet-ers should butt out and let the Dalai Lama work in his own way. They should also understand that the Chinese don't give a crap about their thoughts and opinions.

mckenzie

I take it that you are uncomfortable with protesters then? I think you will find that it's a tad obvious to state that she does in fact realise the full implications of her actions.
The treatment that the Tibetans receive from the Chinese is rather a bitch don't you think?
Some people feel strongly about these things and protest. Some of the luxuries and benefits which your privileged arse enjoys is because of people who have had the testicles to protest in the past. So put a clean nappy on and wipe your shitty arse, clean your snotty nose and get back in mummy's play pen.

J H Holloway

Typical, self-satisfied, smug, safe, leafy-street, middle brow liberal posturing.

She probably now regards herself as some kind of 'uman Rights martyr.

But she back, safe and warm and heading for mummy and daddy's place.

Pathetic.

Aidan

I'm taking a certain vindictive pleasure in watching four groups I despise all interacting and tearing each other apart. The awful awful Chinese Government. The sanctimonious hypocrisy that is the Olympic "Movement". The smug "protestors" of Free Tibet. And finally the Islamists.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, what a pity they can't all lose out.

James

I think it is harsh to state that she isn't being courageous because China decided to deport rather than imprison. Lucy can't influence her place of birth and possibly didn't know the likely Chinese reaction in advance.

She is certainly acting more courageously than someone contributing a self-righteous blog from the comfort of an office. You should count yourself lucky too perhaps...

Commondog

Facile, Middle class posturing of Geldofian proportions.

(Wonder if they agonised over the carbon output of their Oriental flounce-around)

Verity

McKenzie, you're rather a bitch, don't you think? Do tell us of your experience of living in China. I know you wouldn't just be running off at the mouth with no first-hand knowledge other than what had been intravenously injected by the BBC. How many years did you live there? Were you working there? Did you get medical care there? Do share!

Aiden, what a heartwarming thought! The Chinese government,in my view, is the least serious offender because they have already come a long way and they are on the path to joining the First World in the next 30 years or so.

But the smug Free Tibet-ers, who know better what's good for Tibet than does the Dalai Lama and the Olympics and the Islamists in a three-way fight warms the cockles of one's heart.

Austin Barry

Oh, I say, I think Lucy was jolly brave to help those Tibetans, they seem such frightfully nice people and the Chinese are such awful brutes. Isn't it sweet that some of our gals are prepared to be really really brave. It makes one so proud to English.

The Carbon Footprint Monitor (Sino- Asia Division)

Hmmm ... Commondog. You are right! Did they offset their carbon output by doing a trade through Al Gore's carbon offset trading company?

James writes that this gal "possibly didn't know the likely Chinese reaction in advance". Yeah. Right. You think that the vast Free Tibet network didn't know in advance that the Chinese would not be throwing Westerners in prison during the Olympics? Or ever? (They just want them the hell out.)

Charlie T

What jolly japes and scrapes we British get up to on our hols.

Smug though they are I must say the Free Tibeters are totally outgunned in the sanctimonious stakes by the conceited George Monbiot and his green prigs.

dennis

I don't see what so wrong with protesting about the human rights violations carried out by Chinese Communists.

Isn't that, broadly speaking, what President Bush is doing in his Thailand speech?

The Carbon Footprint Monitor (Leafy Suburbs Division)

Oh, I do so agree, Austin Barry! Frightfully chic protesting outfit, too. Oriental touches, but not, you know, OTT.

The Carbon Footprint Monitor (SE Asia Division)

Dennis, why is President Bush protesting about Chinese "human rights" violations in Thailand? That's quite a geographical jump.

David Lindsay

Oh, but those ageing hippies, not least in the neoconservative movement, just love Tibet. And after Kosovo, why not Tibet (or, indeed, anywhere else at all)?

After all, before 1959, Tibet was an independent state ruled benignly by the Dalai Lama and given over almost entirely to the pursuit of spirituality. Wasn't she?

Er, no, actually. Tibet was certainly ruled by the Dalai Lama, by the lamas generally, and by the feudal landlord class from which the lamas were drawn. Well over ninety per cent of the population was made up of serfs, the background from which the present rulers of Tibet are drawn.

That system was unique in China, and existed only because successive Emperors of China had granted the Tibetan ruling clique exactly the "autonomy" for which it still campaigns from "exile". Life expectancy in Tibet was half what it is today.

There has never been an independent state of Tibet, the Tibetans themselves migrated there from further east in China, huge numbers of them never did and never have done (the Dalai Lama himself was born hundreds of miles outside Tibet), and, likewise, the presence of large numbers of Han (ethnic Chinese in the ordinary sense) and other Chinese ethnic groups in Tibet is nothing remotely new.

But why let the facts get in the way of reliving the glory days of flower power and Cold War Trotskyism? And, again I say, after Kosovo, then why not absolutely anywhere at all?

Oscar

Smug. Smug. Smug. This was designer protesting - fully backed up by mummy and daddy. The sort of jape that risks giving true dissidents a bad name.

Marian C

Excuse my cynicism, but isn’t this the safest time to protest in China for ‘Free Tibet’? after all, the Chinese are certainly not stupid people by any stretch of the imagination. Therefore, they will not be imprisoning or running over any body with their tanks (it has happened before), especially as the Olympics are just around the corner. The Chinese will not want our country pulling out of these games in protest over the imprisonment of this girl or anyone else.

Now, if the games had not been around the corner, and she had still protested, then maybe, I would think differently of her. As it stands, I think this looks more like a publicity stunt then any real protest.

Keith

Sadly, I think the protest has achieved nothing. Nor, at this particular time was it ever likely to. The Chinese were hardly likely to shoot the protestors now were they?

James

There are some very strange comments on this post.

Verity - your initial comment saying that all free-tibeters should mind their own business because the unelected exiled spiritual leader of Tibet has changed his position is very odd. Gordon Brown says many things - but as a loyal British subject I disagree with most of them - that is my right.

Are you supporting one-man dictatorship - or can the free-Tibeters hold a separate opinion from the Dalai Lama?

JH Holloway, Commondog and Austin Barry - have you just got back from Labour's Crewe and Nantwich election campaign. Not content with hitting toffs - you now hate all the middle classes. Should we pass laws to stop those from leafy suburbs from campaigning because they haven't ever roughed up their hands with manual toil? I think you maybe reading the wrong blog - the Morning Star would welcome you with open arms.

Before people mis-interpret my position - I am not a free-tibeter or a campaginer. I don't hold a strong position on this argument. But I do believe people have the right to protest and would rather challenge them on beliefs rather than their background or because they don't hold the same opinions as the leader of the movement.

Brian - truly awful post - one of the worst I have read on this site.

Silent Hunter

Keith:

Really?.......they did in Tienanmen Square; but as those were only their own students and it was 'such a long time ago' apparently, it hardly warrants anyone having the temerity to question what is by any democratic standards.....an authoritarian and dictatorial regime.

Let's just pretend it's not happening (after all; it's not OUR kids they're shooting) and carry on buying all those lovely, cheap Chinese goods.

So let's all enjoy the games safe in the knowledge that we didn't have to witness the wholesale destruction of villages to make way for hotels for the tourist influx.

I mean, they're only peasants.....right?

They're probably much happier having been 're-homed' miles from where they grew up and where their parents and grandparents were also born.
It's not as if they had to be taken away in Military Trucks, 'cared for' by Chinese soldiers armed with high power assault rifles......and even if they did (which they did) it doesn't mean that they weren't happy to be leaving and the presence of the army was clearly just for their 'protection'.

I'm sure that all the writers above would also be more than happy if Labour made a compulsory purchase of their homes......for a good cause, naturally, and moved them all to a new home, miles away.

Of course they would :O) ....but I'm sure there would be some middle class mummy's girl who would stand up and say "that's not right"?
And then we could all, as good people, stand up and say........what does she know?

It's a real treat to know that we still have good citizens who are not afraid to stand up on a blog and berate an idealistic student, safe in their own homes because they know so much better.

I wonder if they've read any Edmund Burke.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good people to do nothing"

As I say......it's good to see so many 'good' people on this blog.

Silent Hunter

James:

Agreed, it really is a poor piece of 'journalism' and hardly worthy of the Spectator.

Commondog

Well James, if they happen to be middle-class, and they take part in facile posturing, then it's a fair label.

Just so happens it's the privileged offspring of that class who seem most prone to such displays.
Maybe it's a self imposed penance attempting to experience the hardship they've read about. The inescapable gnaw of the congenitally elevated. They wanna sleep with common people don'tya know.

There's no law to stop them thank goodness. Just as there is no restriction on criticisms of their motives, and no requirement either, that we need your patroising nod to be allowed onto this blog.

Verity

James says: "Verity - your initial comment saying that all free-tibeters should mind their own business because the unelected exiled spiritual leader of Tibet has changed his position is very odd."

No, it's not.

Your comment is odd because you want to impose a Western system of government on other people who have never asked for it. Who says your way is best? The Tibetans are content that the Dalai Lama is their god-king. I don't believe they give a monkey's about your little ethnocentric thoughtlets.

In any event, oddly enough, the Dalai Lama is ahead of you. He has already said that the next Dalai, who will be made apparent as a baby, as is their tradition, should be declared the Dalai Lama by a vote.

I don't think the Free Tibeters know what is best for Tibet. They know what they want for Tibet because they cannot imagine life outside the boundaries of their little imaginations.

I absolutely loathe cultural imperialism. Leave people alone, for God's sake!

Verity

James, you write that you don't have a dog in this hunt, "But I do believe people have the right to protest ...".

Not in someone else's country, they don't.

Commondog

Silent Hunter.

"if Labour made a compulsory purchase of their homes......for a good cause, naturally, and moved them all to a new home, miles away."

We did that bit. We call it the Sixties.

James

Commondog - you are kidding right? You patronise people for "facile posturing" because of their class and then ask not to be patronised yourself? The problem is you aren't just criticising their motives or their cause (for which I have no issue) - you are enjoying a bigotted rant at their background. You don't need my nod to contribute to this blog - but I don't need any permission to take issue with your ignorant class hatred.

Verity - You wilfully mis-interpret my post again. I wasn't stating a position on the issue or pushing democracy or even telling them the best way to organise themselves. I was however supporting their right to protest, hold different views from the government of Beijing and the Dalai Lama.

Therefore I am not acting as a cultural imperialist - but unfortunately you are with statements like "they cannot imagine life outside the boundaries of their little imaginations"

James

Verity - there are plenty of Free Tibeters who come from Tibet - they are entitled to their opinions.

How do you square your firm beliefs against foreign action with the Rwandan genocide? Protest, intervention, sanctions - they can all be justified in certain circumstances.

Alessandro Millini

Rich spoiled brats with no need to work feel the urge to embellish their egos and make a name for themselves this is a clear example.

This is a united effort by the corporations of the west to bombard the Chinese with negative marketing which is really blackmail at this crucial time in Chinese history. There aim is for China to allow the western corporations access to the 1 Billion + untapped consumers so they can sell them their products and services.

The Chinese are the workhorse of the world and they can make almost anything so why would they allow money to go to western banks when they can provide all the needs of their consumers, pick up anything and read the reverse text "made in ?" yes CHINA ! Western corporations know the Chinese are modernising and developing at a fast rate and they see this as a threat because they dont want the Chinese making and selling all the things their countrymen want because they feel this is against DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, how absurd. Bush didnt create FREEDOM neither has he a monopoly of this inalienable right go read your CONSTITUTION bush.

Silent Hunter

CommonDog:

So is 'protest' the sole protectorate of the ....what?....'working class'?

James:

Clearly reasoned debate is causing some of the, shall we say, less literate commentators foam at the mouth LOL
Perhaps we should allow them time to calm themselves ;O)
Their 'certainty' in their position is touching....presumably, over indulged as children; one can almost see them stamping their feet and shouting at the top of their voices........"'TIS"

Tiberius

Nice to see that class prejudice is still so prevalent.

J H Holloway

James, I am grade-one, blue chip, working class Thatcherite, who supports the Tory party.

But I hate the middle-brow liberals who do more harm than good.

I thought that it was this type of person who currently makes up the top-end of the Labour party and had done so much to destroy it.

Oh, and I'm currently married to a toff. These days, toffs don't stick their oar in. They don't, for example, campaign for state education and then use private schools or private tutors.

That what the smuggies do. Human Rights, Climate Change, whatever. They campaign against it all from the smuggest of smug positions. This bird, Monbiot, Toynbee, Cherie....you name 'em.

Perhaps is she goes back to China and really gets here hands dirty, we'll believe her. But it looks like she hasn't got over being sent to boarding school and she's trying to over-compensate.

Silent Hunter

Commondog:

Forgive me but your reply to my point is so obtuse as to be unintelligible...could you perhaps attempt to clarify exactly what point you are trying to make?

Many thanks.

Lee Jakeman

To J H Holloway - Spot on!

Silent Hunter

Alessandro Millini:

An interesting rant.

Shame that your 2nd paragraph perfectly contradicts your final paragraph.

You say that western capitalists just want access to Chinese markets (which is strictly controlled by the Chinese Government, but let's not let facts get in the way of a good story :O), and then go on to say that every item we pick up HERE, in the West has .....Made in China on it.

That rather looks like they're flooding OUR markets with goods whilst preventing US selling items to THEM.
Hardly what you would call 'free trade' now is it!

Verity

James The Lofty, He Who Cannot Be Wrong, writes to me: "How do you square your firm beliefs against foreign action with the Rwandan genocide?"

Wha'?

Let's face facts here. The Tibetans, being largely Han Chinese, are photogenic people. Their dress is exotic. Their religion is exotic too and has intrigued Western writers for generations.

They live at the top of the HImalayas, which is both photogenic and awfully cold. So, drama. (Now, they've got glass windows, which has to help.) The Dalai Lama speaks excellent English. He's witty. He's exotic. He leads an entire people.

And he's an independent thinker.

How infuriating! He doesn't need the advice of James or that ridiculous girl, who wouldn't have dared a well-dressed protest had it not been the Olympics with absolutely "loads of press, Mummy!"

And he has moderated his position over the last 30 years. Without the advice of the British left!

He has moved with the times since he escaped on foot over the Himalayas 50 years ago.

How very dare he!

Why cannot you leftist One Worlders keep your hands off people who didn't invite you in? You've failed at absolutely everything you have essayed and you still can't keep your febrile hands off huge swathes of the lives of others - and you become furious when your moral uberlordship is resisted.

Silent Hunter, Western goods are on sale in China. And could you do us a favour and stop using those infantile emoticons? It breaks up the flow of a thought.

Keith

Silent Hunter,
you have deliberately chosen to misinterpret what I said. As you know perfectly well, I meant that the Chinese would hardly be likely to shoot those particular protestors. I said nothing about other human rights abuses of which the Chinese are more than culpable so please have the kindness not to put words in my mouth.

Silent Hunter

Keith - forgive me, but it was really only the first paragraph aimed at you in particular.....the rest was for general consumption.

I should have made that clear.

Hope you're not too miffed? ;O)

Venality:

Hi! :O)LOL....OMG....ROTFL! ;O)

Quote:
"James The Lofty, He Who Cannot Be Wrong, writes to me: ..."

And the irony of that statement will be completely lost on you, won't it dear. LOL

As for 'infantile'....well, perhaps if I used the word 'exotic' three times in one post, include the word 'wha'?, or the sentence 'How very dare he' you might be able to use that particular word, however, it would be fairer to criticise me for my poor use of grammar & syntax.

'...and you become furious when your moral uberlordship is resisted....'

Me thinks she doth protest to much. (smiley face....as you hate emoticons......you do seem to HATE quite a lot of things; don't you VeritableIrate-ity....laugh out loud)
But then; that's what fascists do!

Tiberius:

I know......appalling isn't it!

I had no idea that there were still so many poorly educated 'little Englanders' still on the go.

A sad indictment of our state education system I'm afraid.

Keep well - always a pleasure to read your posts.

David

Strange post; weird comments.

Don't know the girl; would not choose to comment on her personality or attitudes without knowing her.

I think anyone is free to hold whatever opinions they want about whatever country they want, and peaceful protest is fine anywhere so long as you accept the public-order-level criminal consequences.

I would point out that they seemed to be welcomed back to the UK by a chap who looked rather like a religious Tibetan, and I am guessed that Tibetan exiles have a bit a problem getting a visa at the moment, so for all the posters here know they were acting on behalf of a large number of Tibetan exiles - as I started off saying, we don't know the girl or the facts.

All round a strange out-break of collectivist authoritarianism on all sides. Go figure.

Alessandro Millini

When did you see something made in the U.S or U.K think about the cost of labor and the demise of the manufacturing sectors in the West its cheap in china. However the aim of the western corporations is to sell the Chinese their goods at western prices with the majority of sectors PRIVITISED !

Its a game of chess and yee are but a pawn, stay silent and hunt shadows. Sometimes the truth hurts and ignorance is bliss.

Mark

OK, Lucy Fairbrother may not be the bravest protester of all time. But let's be clear: the Chinese regime is repugnant and oppressive, it is oppressing the Tibetans and many others and it is a good thing to remind people of that amidst the fanfare for the Olympic Games.
And attacking protesters for their class is pathetic and unworthy of Spectator readers.

David

A second comment on Tibetan politics; I happen to have a number of mainland and HK Chinese colleagues who I have discussed this with, and what I have gleaned from their point of view / understanding is the following:

The Dalai Lama's concern now is re-entry into Tibet prior to the selection of his successor, because he knows that if he is absent the Chinese will be able drive the decision - and he can't choose someone outside Tibet.

To make this possible he has to avoid any support for secession and seek negotiations with the Chinese government about his return. Hence his refusal to support any of the protests.

I wonder if his support for voting on his successor is also an attempt to prevent the Chinese government controlling the process.

A final point: watch the impact of the new railway link to Tibet; if this gives the non-privileged in Tibet access education and opportunities in wider China this could be transformational. Strategically this may be the Chinese master-stroke.

Alessandro Millini

Just like Africa the west doesnt want to change the status quo keep sending them aid. The African farmers want access to the western markets in order to sell their produce at the same rate as their farmers.

Subsidised farmers and economic policy and unions have continued to prevent free trade between the Africans and Europeans. The Africans are sick of aid they want TRADE, meanwhile the rich and famous dance in Hyde park for mandela (for not nationalising the diamond, gold and mineral mines, farms owned by white farmers) meanwhile poverty and aids is rife. Poverty is Africa's climate for centuries to come and the west will continue to offer platitudes.

This is the fists of imperialism and capitalism beating Africa. Please refrain and engage your brain.

James

Verity - the Dalai Lama seems like a very honourable, principled man (although not sure about your exotic and photogenic comments - that doesn't seem relevant).

As spiritual leader of the Tibet people he has a position. That position has changed over time - which shouldn't be an issue and I often wish that our leaders would show such flexibility.

However, what is clear is that whilst he has changed his position in exile - he hasn't kept all of the Tibet people onside. There are clear divisions in the Free Tibet movement as demonstrated by the protests earlier this year that weren't sanctioned by the Dalai Lama.

So - I have no issue with the Dalai Lama nor his policies and wouldn't dream of lecturing him on what to do.

However, I do acknowledge the right for ordinary Tibetans to take an alternative view. I do support their right to protest with the help of outsiders - provided it remains peaceful. Finally I don't think it is right for you to deny people in Tibet of those rights and assume they hold the same views as their leader.

It is the basic right of freedom of speech that I am defending. Tibetans should have it - and they don't. In addition - the bond between humanity and the desire for one person to help another against a perceived injustice should not be circumscribed by the power of sovereign states - provided remedy is sort in a peaceful way.

In reality - states make laws that close down the freedom of speech. That is the way of the world - but it doesn't mean that those laws are just or that they should be respected. Many people spoke out and campaigned against apartheid in South Africa - I think that showed humanity at it's finest. Unfortunately it is more common for people not to speak out against human rights abuses.

J H Holloway - where people are being hypocritical and campaigning one way and living their lives another - I 100% agree with you. However, if young people take an active interest in world affairs and decide to campaign for human rights - then I support their right to do so regardless of their background. They are not hurting you by doing so - and if the media didn't report it you would be none-the-wiser of their actions.

Chuck Unsworth

Seems that the offspring of the wealthy regularly pull this kind of stunt. I suppose they've got enough time and money to be able to do so.

The rest of mankind is usually too busy keeping bread on the table, and a roof over their heads.

In the end what has it achieved - apart from a certain fifteen minutes of fame for a pretty vacuous young damsel, that is?

Now, has she also decided that she will no longer purchase anything made in China? Oh dear, bang goes the mobile, the i-pod, the TV etc etc.....

William Norton

Yawn.

Nowadays awfully nice people protest in favour of a Free Tibet and then go off to university. Their parents probably spent a year on a kibbutz, but for some reason or other awfully nice people aren't keen on that part of the world any more.

I really can't get terribly excited one way or the other about this. I often wonder if, left to its own devices, Tobet wouldn't have turned out like Nepal. They've both got mountains and snow and stuff after all.

Silent Hunter

Alessi is More!

'...the aim of the western corporations is to sell the Chinese their goods at western prices with the majority of sectors PRIVITISED !...'

Yeah! Like THAT'S going to happen! I notice that you don't address the point about China restricting trade ...TO China.

'...ignorance is bliss...'

Well; clearly in your case. LOL

Silent Hunter

Alless & alack:

BTW....'Punctuation' was invented for a very good reason.........please could you think about using it for your future posts.

Many thanks.

Alessandro Millini

The E.U restricted Chinese imports because the cheap goods flooding the E.U will have an adverse affect on the competition in these states.

Try thinking out of the box instead of thinking like a slave to your corporate masters. Enjoy the corporate phallic plunging yours and your future generations orifices.

Austin Barry

Alessandro: "Enjoy the corporate phallic plunging yours and your future generations orifices." I have no idea what this means, although it may be terribly exciting. Please could you provide a diagram.

Jonny Mac

As David@9.47 says, weird post, strange comments.

Lots of class chippiness, which is odd for the Speccie.

This was a girl who had the temerity to protest for human rights and automony for while being middle class. Well, good on her, I say. And actually, anyone who's been in China for any length of time will know it would have taken some guts to do what she did. More guts than tapping would-be sophisticated comments on your keyboard from the safety of your office or livingroom, anyway. If I'm honest, I think some posters should be a bit ashamed.

Verity, your comments are grotesque. Human rights are universal, and it is not "cultural imperialism" to say so. That's just facile posturing, bordering on racism. effectively you're shilling for a grim and repressive regime. Nice one.

Silent Hunter

Aless-oninVituperation-ini:

Hah!

You resort to personal abuse because your argument has no basis other than prejudice, therefore..........I win! :O)

Next?

Alessandro Millini

You can find an enormous phallic at the Washington memorial, coming to a town near you.

As for Mac the only thing she had inasmuch as it were her fathers money (ex barings bank director). If she actually earned the money to pay for the ticket and stay then i would be more sympathetic.

What about the GROTESQUE human rights record of Saudia Arabia, Palestine, U.S, Iraq, Afghanistan, Mauritania, Morocco, Egypt etc. Dont pick and choose states just because the foreign office aka intelligence services want to use as political bargaining chip against Chinese.

If the Chinese allowed western corporations to buy nationalised sectors and access to the consumer market in return Tibet to remain part of China then all this hysteria would disappear.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Jonny Mac

"Human rights are universal...."

You're completely off your trolley, my son. Human rights mean absolutely sod all in about 80% of the world. Human rights are a vague legalistic concept based upon a particular culture and dreamed up by some semi-comatose lawyers and do-gooders.

You really need to get out a bit more. Try touring round China, Burma, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran/Iraq, most of South America, a good proportion of North America, and much of Europe.

Human 'rights', indeed.

Gareth

Silent Munter,

Not only have you displayed an air of sanctimonious superiority that verges on the vomit making but your "I win" comment shows you also have a particularly juvenile approach to informed debate.

Pillock!

Mark

Would any of those who are laying into Lucy Fairbrother like to live in Tibet or China as a subject of the Chinese government? Thought not.
Some of us - not all of whom are trustafarians - think that freedom of religion, freedom of expression and democracy are good ideas and their absence is to be deplored. Also, we aren't keen on governments who imprison, torture and occasionally kill those of their subjects who disagree with them.

Verity

David writes: "peaceful protest is fine anywhere so long as you accept the public-order-level criminal consequences." I'm afraid one has absolutely no choice but to accept the consequences, prepared or not, when breaking the law in a foreign country.

Alessandro Millini: True. And this is why I referred to French strawberry growers above. I envision the Anglosphere letting the African growers join the market free-for-all and trying their hand in the Anglosphere. They are never, repeat never, going to get their chance from the vile EU.

James writes, regarding the Dalai Lama, "However, I do acknowledge the right for ordinary Tibetans to take an alternative view."

Certainly! So do I! Most assuredly! I don't know that Westerners have the qualifications to take any view at all that conflicts with what the Dalai Lama states, however, because they are not in a position of knowledge, and he is.

Johnny Mac - I think you're on the wrong publication. "Human rights are universal" indeed! This argument, as well as telling me I'm "shilling for a grim and represssive regime" is the stuff of the Sixth Form common room.

As others have mentioned above, "human rights" is a concept that is not shared by a large section of the globe. We all wish the Tibetans - and the Chinese people - well, but some of us understand these things evolve over generations and cannot be imposed from without.

Poor Chuck Unsworth

Chuck Unsworth - in the words of Jean Jacques Rousseau - "man is born free but everywhere he is in chains".

If human rights are worthless to you - so be it. It wouldn't be difficult for this Government to further erode our personal freedoms. But if your own personal rights are merely "vague legalistic concepts based upon a particular culture and dreamed up by some semi-comatose lawyers and do-gooders" - I suspect you wouldn't mind. Which is a pity.

They may detain you under house-arrest without charge for many years - and you self-evidently wouldn't mind and would possibly thank them for being so diligent in their work. They clearly know better than those lawyers.

How do you think our current legal framework came about? Before magna carta - were the English culturally respectful of each other's rights and the law was codified on that basis? Was the American bill of rights just a drafting of the current situation - or were they inspired by the ideas of inalienable rights?

In reality people have fought and struggled for basic rights and freedoms over many years?

How do you square your views with slavery - was the abolition a moral good, or just a political necessity? Do you still have a couple of slaves chained up in your cellar?

Chuck - allow yourself to aspire to a better world. If you don't give a damn about other countries - at least aspire to a better Britain - where your rights are fully respected. Human rights may not be universally applied - but they are universal.

Jonny Mac

Bloody hell.

Chuck, Verity: saying human rights are universal is not saying that human rights are enjoyed equally everywhere or are respected by governments everywhere. I didn't think that was a terribly subtle point, but it obviously was for you. But if you say that an American or West European should have the right to vote, or to own property, or to have a fair trial, but a Zimabwean or a Chinese person shouldn't, you're

(a) a fool,
(b) a hypocrite, and/or
(c) a racist.

Oh, and don't come the man of the world/"sixth form common room" shtick with me. People have died for what we're talking about.

Verity

Johnny Mac - OK, I was mistaken about the Sixth Form common room remark. However, your post does indicate that you will still be on the same overwrought emotional wavelength when you reach the Sixth Form.

While I'm here, although I loathe the concept of the Olympics, I sincerely wish the Chinese all the success in the world with this Games and I hope the 8th day of the 8th month in the year 2008 will indeed prove fortunate for them. The Chinese are superb planners and I hope like hell that this Olympics give them face and the confidence to inch forward towards democracy for their 1.2bn people.

Verity is Nuts

Verity - why must Westerners side with the Dalai Lama and but are not allowed to side with other Tibetans who take an opposing view? That doesn't make any sense and you are directly contradicting yourself when you say you agree that Tibetans are entitled to their own opinion.

In fact you have gone one better and signed the entire western world up in unison against those Tibetans who want independence from Chinese rule.

Is there any law in any country you actually disagree with. Did you agree with the Taliban in Afghanistan when they stoned women for committing adultery? Did you like the idea that a minority white government in South Africa forced black people to live townships?

I don't think I have ever come across anyone with your particular set of beliefs. You are unique - truly special! Provided a dictator is in control (by whatever means necessary) you agree that all laws that sustain him in power, syphon off the natural wealth of the nation and torture and murder his opposition are valid because they have passed by the bogus state apparatus that he has put in place.

I bet you loved Saddamn's chemical weapon trial on the Kurds! That taught them for rocking the boat! They didn't break any of his laws again for a while.

Verity

A pastiche is only funny if based on truths. Your long stream of drivel bore no relation to anything I have ever written. It was fevered, angry and pointless.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Jonny Mac

Yes people have died - on both sides of that debate - and some of us have even fought for our principles. Perhaps you have, too. You seem to believe that 'Democracy' is inherently a good thing. Which particular version of 'Democracy' do you aspire to?

"But if you say that an American or West European should have the right to vote, or to own property, or to have a fair trial, but a Zimabwean or a Chinese person shouldn't, you're..." - etc'.

Did I say that? Where? Do yourself a favour and stop falsely attributing sentiments to others. If you wish to debate that's fine, if you just want to have a slanging match, well forget it chum, I've got much better things to do.

@ 'Poor etc' Do everyone a favour and get a name of some sort.

And, while we're at it: "If you don't give a damn about other countries - at least aspire to a better Britain - where your rights are fully respected. Human rights may not be universally applied - but they are universal."

Just what do you mean by 'universal'? Universally accepted, applied, admired, ignored, despised, etc - ad infinitum?

And no, as it happens I don't give a damn about other countries. I'm far more concerned about what these poseurs, the cretinous do-gooders, are doing to my country. There has been a totally destructive movement in Britain for the last few decades. The social engineering and amoral wooly-mindedness of politicians has done untold harm to society at all levels. As a nation we have lost sight of any form of moral purpose or the national good. I'll be concerned about other countries only in so far as they or their actions directly affect the fortunes of this nation.

What rights are these which are 'fully respected'?

'Aspire to a better Britain'? What's your concept of a 'better Britain' then?

It's all very jolly saying things like 'aspire to...' etc. Let's just put a few markers down as to what we think we ought to be as a nation first, eh?

Sally Rice

Amazing this is by far the best opening ceremony i can remember and let’s face it the western propaganda is against the Chinese i for one love CHINA and I'm not Chinese. I love China because it is honest, sincere and wise country the western stations are spouting bile against China because they are told to do so. The intelligence services are doing the bidding of the corporations using subversive tactics to undermine and shame the government.

For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble,
Double, double toil and trouble,
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
William Shakespeare from Macbeth

This is political pressure western style using spin and the media to make lies and insinuations against a peaceful and prosperous nation. China will rule for the next few hundred years as the dragon awakes it will consume the eagle with one breath. The British bulldog and the American eagle fear the Chinese dragon because they know its true power is the people so they use divide and conquer to fragment a unified nation in order to sell it in pieces to western corporations.

Poor Chuck Unsworth

Moral purpose or the national good? Previously you were against human rights. Do you have a separate moral code that excludes human rights? Would you like to share?

Are your markers for a better Britain free from all aspiration? They don't sound very appealing.

Sally Loves Rice

Sally - you are more frightening than Verity and Chuck. Did you get all that from the Olympic opening ceremony???

Nick Kaplan

Alessandro Millini says “Sometimes the truth hurts and ignorance is bliss”, if that’s the case then you must be in heaven with the inconsistent conspiracy theory nonsense you are spouting. I think you’ve been reading too much Noam Chompsky or perhaps worse; are you a David Icke fan?

Chuck Unsworth

@ Poor etc

"Previously you were against human rights"

Show me the money. Where did I say that? Don't put your disgusting interpretations in my mouth - you never know where they might have been.

I'm certainly against the sort of garbage sloganising you seem to be indulging in. Just explain precisely what your definition of 'human rights' is, and how that might interlink with moral purpose (not 'code' as you seem to have misread) and we can then get on with discussion.

And you still don't seem to have a name. How utterly tragic. Does your mother know this? Does this also apply to your birth certificate?

Verity

Sally Rice - Aaaiiyyo!

I too hope that the Olympics are a success for China and this success will pave the way for China to become integrated, as its intelligence and energy would indicate, in the first world, eventually.

However, I do not believe for one instant that you are not Chinese. You are 100% Chinese, Sally Rice Bowl. Claiming not to be Chinese will make you sound as crazy as Johnny Mac, Poor Chuck Unsworth and Not Chuck Unsworth - and that is plenty crazy, uh?

Commondog

James.

I criticised, I didn't patronise. Easy to distinguish between the two.

My criticism was aimed towards the 'facile posturing' of these protestors. They were middle class by the look/sound of them and in my experience, this group do more than their fair share of this type of thing.

A possible explanation:
These people are comfortable and they see that others in this world are not.
They want others to share but quickly realise that this would entail them doing without much of what they possess, which is not really what was intended at all.
So, in lieu of this, they offer up token gestures which allow them to feel good whilst at the same time preserving the status quo.

Band-Aidism.

Nothing wrong with being comfortable, but just don't feign any desire for real change by these displays.

Commondog

Silent Hunter.

I picked from your text, what appeared to me to be a comparison between the inhumane treatment as practised by Chinese authorities, and the benign approach of our own authorities regarding the forced expulsion of people from their homes in order to further some 'greater good'.

My point being that we in the UK were subjected to widespread and non-negotiable enforced movement not all that long ago. In fact it is a process which continues to the present, albeit in reduced number.

I may of course have misread your line, in which case I await correction.

Sally Rice

Don't give jewels to a swine. As a dog that returneth to his vomit, so is a fool that repeateth his folly.A master performeth all things; but he that stoppeth a fool is as one that stoppeth a flood.

Take heed ye western ignoramuses.

Will

As a regular reader of this blog and, more pertinently, one of Lucy's friends, I feel I ought to reply to some of the more vitriolic posts above.

People have differing opinions on the rights and wrongs of her actions, and the effectiveness of such protests in general; they are bound to. Indeed, many a time have I gently mocked Lucy for her "student activism" (not having been the type myself you understand) and she has proved herself on such occasions more than capable of defending her position.

What I consider entirely uncalled for are those comments from some posters about her personality and background. Needless to say they are almost totally wide of the mark. But I suppose it is easy to pour scorn on someone you don't know from a position of effective anonymity, and to rely on crass stereotypes as a crutch in one's argument rather than make a more thoughtful engagement with the issue at hand.

As for the original article, I am uncertain as to what the author's point is (beyond a rather cynical jeer from the gallery). The fact that a Chinese national or Tibetan would have suffered far worse had they engaged in such activity is entirely the point; Lucy and her friends were the only people capable of making such a protest with the confidence of not only considerable media attention but also a peaceful outcome. This hardly strikes me as a bad thing; they have reminded the world of Tibet's plight at a time when China would much rather such things not be mentioned and they did so without hurting anyone or incurring dreadful penalties for themselves. Win-win in my book, or perhaps, the author requires literal martyrdom as the badge of effective and principled protest?

Silent Hunter

Gareth:

Oh good come back!

And which bit of 'informed debate' does 'pillock' constitute?

Take your time; I realise my question will be stretching your intellectual capacity to breaking point. LOL

Thanks for illustrating your point about my superiority....glad you recognise that fact. ;O)

Clearly your comprehensive education failed to equip you with the cerebral ability to 'fence' with a rapier......when a 'a blunt instrument' is all you possess. LOL :O)

Commondog:

'...we in the UK were subjected to widespread and non-negotiable enforced movement not all that long ago....'

I'm not sure as to what you refer to here?
If you could clarify this; I would be happy to address your point.
But I don't subscribe to the 'China is bad and the West is good' simplification if that's what you mean.

God knows that our own government has nothing to be proud of in our own Foreign Policy, but that does not let the Chinese off the hook as far as I'm concerned.

Sally Rice:

Tienanmen Square?....remember that do you?

Silent Hunter

Will:

Thanks for an excellent post - intelligent & succinct - a refreshing change to the as you say,.. 'vitriol'.. being thrown at your friend Lucy.

Unfortunately, these armchair 'journalists' have more in common with the average Daily Mail, Star & News of the Screws reader........it amazes me that they even bother to blog here at the Spectator.

Perhaps you can take heart that the more intelligent life on this blog can clearly see why she took the stance that she did without resorting to personal attacks based on her background & upbringing.

Clearly these are precisely the people New Labour hope to recruit with their 'Toffs' campaign........thankfully, that has proved to be a complete failure, as there are now few people, 'that stupid', to be taken in by it......with the notable exceptions above, who always like to open their mouths and confirm what we all think of them any way. :O)

Please pass on my regards to Lucy & tell her not to worry about the 'yappings' of a few attack poodles like Venality & the Bride of Chuckie!

Chuck Unsworth

@ Silent Hunter.

Are you assuming that this young lady can read? Well, perhaps she can. But does she also 'understand' what she's reading? If she does then a short course in Chinese (and Tibetan) History might clarify a few matters for her.

There are much more effective ways of dealing with the Chinese than climbing lamp standards. Perhaps she should devote a little time to studying that. No doubt when she has finished her studies she could then apply to work for organisations which have altogether greater influence on Chinese thinking than yesterday's silly demo as manifested in today's chip-wrappings.

Silent Hunter

Chuckle:

Yes! I'm assuming she can read given that she's clearly from an educated background.

Was that really such a good opener to your post?

When you say a 'short course in Chinese history - I assume that you are an expert on these matters?

I have a modicum of sympathy for your point, that there are more effective ways of protesting (I assume that you wouldn't argue against the fact that the current Chinese regime are repressive and totalitarian?) however, if you'll recall, Chinese students already tried that during their peaceful protests in Tienanmin Square and we all know how that ended now don't we.........all except Sally Rice and her rose tinted spectacles.

Pray do tell us which 'organisation' you have in mind as having 'greater influence on the Chinese' that Lucy might wish to join?

Do you prescribe to the 'Let's do nothing' camp or do you think 'something' should be done; and if yes.......then what?

Gareff!

Still waiting for an answer to my original question?

Would you like to phone a friend, if it's posing a bit of a conundrum?
No: that isn't a method of birth control.

Take your time; I would hate to overtax your limited mental capacity.

Verity

Will writes of the protesting girl who didn't get arrested or sent to prison: "they have reminded the world of Tibet's plight."

The self-regarding naiveté is staggering.

The entire world was thinking of Tibet at this time. It didn't need some little smarty pants,clumsy foreign attention-seeker to bugger it up. We have the Dalai Lama who has kept Tibet in the consciousness of the West with great skill, subtlety and friendliness for the past 50 years.

"Lucy and her friends were the only people capable of making such a protest with the confidence of not only considerable media attention but also a peaceful outcome."

I will leave this idiocy in its solitary glory.

But did you ever wonder why "Lucy and her friends were the only people ...."? Like, maybe everyone else had wiser heads on their shoulders?

Lucy and her friends weren't "the only people capable" .... They were the only people self-regarding and stupid enough.

You really think "Lucy and her friends" were in a position to ensure a "peaceful outcome"? Are you insane?

Will writes,with great uppityness: "What I consider entirely uncalled for are those comments from some posters ...".

Likewise, I'm sure.

Guess what. The world isn't interested in a lecture from Lucy or you. Silent Hunter, Lucy is a clumsy, self-righteous fool. Does she speak any Chinese language? Does she speak Tibetan? Does she have a degree in Chinese history or language? A degree in Tibetan history? Or did she major in "feelings"?

Your little friend is a clumsy, self-righteous, naive idiot. Does she really think she has something to teach people with 5,000 years of written history? I am embarrassed to be the same nationality as such a self-regarding idiot. I didn't notice any other nationality being crude enough to essay such an idiot gesture. Even the Americans had the good sense to hold back. But oh, no, some little girl from somewhere knows better than the whole world what China needs.

Silent Hunter, Tiananmen Square was in 1989. Nineteen years ago,if my math is reliable. Did you want China to be stuck in amber in 1989?

Have you people ever been anywhere in your lives?

Shudder.

Will

As I said, there is fair debate over what Lucy and her friends did (incidentally, as an aside, the other two members of the group were American so it's not purely a British affliction!), all I was asking was for people to lay off the personal abuse about someone they don't know (hell, that applies as much to comments about me as Lucy...).

If that came across as moral-high-horsing I apologise, that wasn't my intent.

Will

On another score, Verity, I would like to thank you. You quite rightly pointed out some things from my first post, which, looking back now I see, were very poorly worded and not what I intended. Red angry biro properly applied there - in future I think less haste more speed is in order...

Chuck Unsworth

Silent Hunter - is that how you spell it - you make far too many and unwise assumptions.

"Given that she's from an educated background". What is an 'educated background'? Or are you saying that she has been 'educated'? And you thus assume that she can read? That is a logical non-sequitur.

One does not have to be an expert to study history and - more importantly - to learn and understand.

As but one example of influence - the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank (HSBC to you) has vastly more sway than a simple student's pranks. And there are some very interesting relationships between the Chinese hierarchy and various off-shore commercial enterprises.