Who Putin is

TrevorH

Putin is a numpty

No one in their right minds would enter into a business deal or partnership with Russia. Russia will be bankrupt inside 10 years.

Russia is bereft of everything except oil and gas - the world has more diamonds than it knows what to do with, so that don't count.

Invest in shale oil now. Pity I am as poor as a church mouse.

Ted C

There is a degree of similarity between Putin & Mugabe. Obviously Putin has oil revenues and an expanding economy but his approach, backed by a corrupted senior military, security and judicial nomenklatura made rich through their support, and his use of "foreigners" as threats does feel familiar. Its the pattern of "mafia" states with Putin / Mugabe / Saddam as Godfather.

Augustus

"He is what he is." Yes, there's something of the night about him.

mitch

His career like that of all political leaders will end in failure of some sort then he will be pushed out by someone smarter.

BCS

Precisely why is Putin's policy so dangerous to the West? He is simply restoring Russia to the regional position she has enjoyed for centuries. What is perilous for everyone is the American insistence (implied by its attitude towards Nato expansion and its military-humanitarian activities in Georgia this week) to resist Russia's historical claims.

Herbert Thornton

It seems likely that this thread is intended as a response to Tim Worstall's earlier blog, headed "Who is Vladimir Putin?".
In response to that, I commented that unlike most western politicians, Putin does not suffer from Political Correctness Disease.

Some people assert that there is something illegitimate about the very popular Putin's holding office as Prime Minister of Russia but the fact is that there was no legal impediment, and the Russian people elected him. The British people on the other hand have had no opportunity to vote on their opinion of the suitability of Gordon Brown to be Prime Minister.

This thread and the comments on it make me want to add that Putin also differs from most western politicians in having common sense, and in being a patriot who is, with good cause, regarded by the great majority of his fellow countrymen with affection. That is certainly not true of Gordon Brown who is almost universally detested.

Andrew Zalotocky

He's a nationalist strongman who can suppress all domestic opposition but who lacks the power to realise all his grand ambitions on the international stage. Putin is not a new Stalin or Hitler. He's a new Mussolini.

dearieme

His foreign policy seems to be rather like President Wilson's; his domestic politics like a robust version of FDR's.

John

"Russia's historical claims"

Yes, exactly the language used by the Third Reich. Completely revealing about his agenda - and yours.

seb

Come on, BCS, please tell us what the Russian names are that these letters stand for? Yes, Russia has enjoyed a certain 'regional position' for centuries. The problem is that this position is to be found on the backs of other less powerful nations.

JONNY

David Cameron seems to think there are votes in going gung-ho towards Russia. I believe that used to be the case but no longer.
Turning outposts of the old Soviet state into missile-armed NATO bases is an extreme provocation and will be unacceptable to Putin. He will fight it all the way. A war we do not have the armies or the will to fight.
Another thing. I have been surprised in the last week by just how many right-wing minded people sympathise with the Russian case and think their reaction, brutal as it is, to be what you might expect.
I have not yet encountered one single unabashed apologist for the Georgian cause.
Why is this? I believe the invasion of Iraq has changed attitudes everywhere. Now people do not believe the Western propaganda they are fed - not even by the BBC.

seb

Hey there, Jonny! So, what do people believe now that they know the Western stuff is lies? Eastern propaganda? Brutality is Russia's stock in trade, which is why, since 1991, Poles, Hungarians and others have wanted to join NATO. Are you saying these people need to ask Mr. Putin's permission first? 'Outposts' are what empires have, Jonny. Get with it! It's the 21st, not the 19th century.

Alfred T Mahan

BCS, 10.25pm, asks why Putin's policies are so dangerous. Because they're not based on the rule of law. 'Might is right' is a return to mediaeval politics where the strongest grabs what it can at the expense of the weak - and makes the world a much more dangerous place. Russia wouldn't scruple to turn off the oil and gas taps if it suited her - is that the sort of world you want to live in, BCS? If so, go on appeasing her and treating this shameful invasion of Georgia as merely the pursuit of 'historical claims'.

Bexleyite

The Germans always go belly up for Russia.

Elizabeth

Herbert Thornton
Thanks for your sensible post.
Other than yours what a load of 'cold war' tosh and nonsense has been written above.
The real axis of evil as seen by most of the planet is USA/Israel/Britain and it is now clear that a Cameron Administration would be nothing more than a continuation of the rule of the Neocons and NWO of the present Blair/Brown cabal.
Leaves us nothing to vote for when an election actually comes around.
Mr Putin has several things going for him that British and other western politicians can only dream of. His people actually admire and respect him and he serves them - doesn't just time serve with his snout in the corporate trough.
The Georgians attacked a town full of sleeping, unprepared civilians and cold bloodedly massacred two thousand of them.
David Cameron rushes to shake the President's hand.
I always thought Cameron was no Tory. Seems to me he isn't even an honourable man.
The only positive thing to come out of this civilian bloodshed is that the corporate western media has been so biassed and so full of anti Russian distortion and bigotry that all but the really thick seem to have finally sussed what is going on. Our media is little better than the old Soviet Pravda.
Seems that many on this thread haven't managed the independent thought needed to see what is going on.
I wonder what it will take to wake you up to the fact that Russia happens to be right, happens to hold all the cards, happens to be the coming state, and happens to have the power to make us very chilly indeed.
It is also rightly peeved to have NATO on its doorstep, a complete betrayal of the promise made to Mr Gorbachev.
'Shameful invasion' of Georgia.
What do you call bombing a defenceless population for 78 days and nights on behalf of an islamic terrorist organization or invading a country based on blatant lies and killing the best part of a million and leaving another three million refugees.
But thats OK is it. Its 'our side'. Well its not mine!

Sad really.

Ted Tedford

Herbert Thornton: Discussions about Russia's 'democracy' reminds me of Chesterton's comments about the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England: you are using the same world to discuss quite different ideas, like the Carlton Club and the club of Hercules.

I agree that it would be wonderful to have a Prime Minister who put the national interest above one-world platitudes, but I hope I am not being too New Labour when I suggest that there might be a third way between Brown's incompetence and venality and Putin's political thuggery and paranoia. And I am sure even Gordon Brown would have submitted himself to the electoral test Putin and Medvedev faced under 'sovereign democracy'.

Elizabeth: Your determination to see moral equivalence between Kosovo and South Ossetia is blinding you to a simple fact: Kosovo Albanian independence is not religious struggle and never has been. The KLA were an 'islamic terrorist organisation' in the same way the IRA were a Roman Catholic terrorist organisation. The Balkans has been remarkable resilient in protecting its own brand of Europeanised Sunni Islam. Anyone who tells you otherwise is looking for US funding. You would be closer to the mark if you had described them as an organised crime gang bent on state-capture.

seb

Yes, Elizabethsky. [Your point of view is] Sad really. Of course, Russia is right. Of course it's the 'coming country'. Stalin, please come back. All is forgiven.

Elizabeth

'The KLA were an 'islamic terrorist organisation' in the same way the IRA were a Roman Catholic terrorist organisation'

You can't be serious!!
Looked at the 140 odd christian churches burnt out and otherwise destroyed in Kosovo. Most of them historic buildings of outstanding significance.
Since when did the Catholics in Northern Ireland ethnically cleanse a quarter of a million protestants from their own country (whilst General Jackson who the day before had guaranteed their safty) looked on?.
When did catholics set up the biggest pimping,drug running criminal narco state, specializing in illegal immigration and much else?.
According to Del Ponte even kidnapping Serbs and keeping them alive to harvest their body organs to order. I don't think the IRA even conceived that money making little scheme.
Don't insult the IRA and the Catholics of Northern ireland.
They haven't occupied and stolen 15% of another sovereign state's territory courtesy of the American bully boys aka the neoconservatives and fellow travellers.

Elizabeth

Tut Seb, Stalin was Georgian. The present Georgian regime have a statute in honour of him in Gori. Actually looking at the war criminal who has just massacred the people of South Ossetia in such cold blood - very appropriate one could say.
You are wrong again, Seb.

seb

You don't get the point, Liz. Yes, Lizsky, little nations can be as naughty as big ones. They're incapable, though, of enslaving half a continent [the Warsaw Pact]. Would Hungary and Poland really like Uncle Vlad as their Big Brother? Would you like Ted Bundy as your boyfriend? Tribal warfare in the former soviet republics is appalling. But the worst 'solution' of all is to expect the very brutal Russian army to make the combatants kiss and make up. And while it's true that Bad Vlad's electorate may, if you want to believe it, think highly of him, he has done nothing to relieve the squalor that passes for daily life for millions in the Russian Federation. Why? Becaue Vladdo doesn't give a monkeys about that problem. Hordes of people are trying to get into evil America and evil Britain. How many are applying for visas to share the floorspace in Vlad's Pad? Russophilia can be treated, Lizova. Hye thee to a psychiatrist.

Elizabeth

Look!! read a real conservative please!
http://www.rense.com/general83/rob.htm
And if you don't like that watch the BBC.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/bbc-video-proves-georgia-to-blame-for-hostilities.html#comment-22391
Facts are facts and huffing and puffing and excusing cold blooded murder by Georgian psychopaths just because they are armed and trained by Israel and the USA just shows what an unprincipled anti-Russian bigot you are.
You would have flourished under Goebbels.
By the way - my name is not 'Liz' but I guess Elizabeth has too many letters in it for you to spell.

seb

History lesson. Though Stalin was from Gruzya [Georgia], as Soviet 'vozhd' he treated his homeland and fellow Georgians the way he treated every other nationality in the Soviet Union - to partial genocide. Only a psycho-pathologist might explain why there might be a statue in Stalin's honour in Gori or why Vladimir Putin has suggested striking a commemorative medal in the butcher's honour. [Who, outside of a Broadmoor patient perhaps, would suggest issuing a medal in honour of the perpetrator of the Dunblane Massacre?]

seb

Seb here. My, what an impressive rant from you, Elizabeth. Well done! Perhaps my having a degree in Russian is something to do with my 'anti-Russian' bigotry? All any anti-Russian bigot wants, of course, is to learn Russian, spend lots of time there and have lots of Russian friends. You wrote that I would have 'flourished' under Goebbels. How does this stuff get past The Spectator's moderator? Would you kindly point out to me those of my words which might be construed as excusing murders in Georgia. What!?!? There aren't any? 'Armed and trained by Israel'? We've heard this sort of thing before, methinks, usually by Seumas Milne in The Guardian. Here's what I wrote. One - Tribal warfare is appalling. Two - The Russian army is not the appropriate means to quell or end such warfare. Three - Former Warsaw Pact nations, remembering their treatment by Russians, look to the West, not to Mr. Putin. I appeal to other readers of these comments to let me know if these opinions remind them of Dr. Goebbels.

Ted Tedford

Elizabeth: If anything, I was insulting you, not the nationalist community of N Ireland. My point is that the IRA were *not* a RC terrorist organisation, and the KLA is *not* as Islamist group, as a moderately close reading of my post would imply.

Your view of Kosovo is highly simplistic. The attacks on churches were indeed highly unpleasant, but they were (are) *not* motivated by a zealous embrace of Islam by K Albanians. They were a result of Serbia's deliberate policy of using the church to impose its political will on the previously-autonomous territory. The huge Serbian Orthodox building in Pristina was built - in the 1990s - not because of any late-flowering Christian revival among K Serbs in the city, but as a crude expression of Belgrade's control and resurgent Serb nationalism.

If HMG had co-opted the Anglican church in Ireland to intimidate local nationalists, I would have expected a similar response. The fact that the thought of such a move is so absurd illustrates the very important difference between Anglicanism and late-C20th/early C21st Serbian Orthodox Christianity.

The IRA has for long been a major drug-supplier, extorter, fuel smuggler and racketeer. If you doubt the extent of the IRA's parallel structures, I suggest you try joy-riding in the Ardoyne and see which form of justice gets to you first and most decisively, the Queen's peace or the boyos'.

Frank Pulley

Richard Holbroke was interviewed on Sky yesterday and I thought his analysis was excellent; it certainly changed my view of the current crisis. Whereas I thought that the Georgian President had deliberately started the fight in an attempt to embroil the West into a confrontation with Putin over Georgia's NATO ambitions (to hasten Georgia entry), Holbroke adduced evidence to show that Russia had lured Saarkashvili into a confrontation by provocation over a long period of time.
Holbroke accused the Western MSM of being gullible in predominatey siding with Russia over this eruption. He may well be right.

Moreover, if you read George Friedman's analysis of the Russo-Georgian conflict:

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power

you will note that he also suggests that the US intelligence deployed in Georgia
failed to read the straws in the wind and were caught napping by Putin.

For those of you who are not familiar with Friedman's work, he is the Head of Stratfor a now commercial intelligence agency (he's an erstwhile - are they ever erstwhile - spook himself) and his Geopolitical breadth and depth is second to none. Read it all, it's thoughtful stuff.

Elizabeth

Ted
Get real. The real nature of the KLA is all over the internet - not least on the conservative sites.
It was designated as a terrorist organization by the USA itself until it was needed as a sacrificial lamb for Saudi oil.
I cannot believe that you can be so ignorant of the assessemnt by Europol as to the criminality and the threat Kosovo poses at that level, never mind the political implications.
Only 43 puppets of the USA have recognised Kosovo at all. It is in direct violation of UN resolution 1244 and in violation of international law and the european agreement on the inviobility of recognised sovereign borders.
If you want to insult me, be my guest. When that is the level of your argument it means that you are totally devoid of reasonable and rational debate.
You are also completely wrong.

Frank Pulley

My apologies - I misspelled Richard Holbrooke's name in the above comment. His cv cn be read here: http://www.charlotterotary.org/holbrooke.htm

Elizabeth

Seb
'Elizabeth. Well done! Perhaps my having a degree in Russian is something to do with my 'anti-Russian' bigotry?'
Condi Rice has a PHD in Russian studies and look what a person she has turned out to be - an international laugh a minute of recent times. Polls in the USA show her to be considered the worst Sec. of State in US history and an excellent example of what 'affirmative action' throws up.
Turns out she can barely speak basic Russian.
Seems to be something rather pathetic about some of those to pursue Russian Studies.
Actually you and Condi make a good pair. Cringing around the worlds greatest war criminal George W Bush and excusing the cold blooded sneak attack on a sleeping and defenseless town.
I trust you bothered to look at the BBC video. Really lets the cat out the bag.
But of course - information like that video may ruin a few of your anti-Russian perceptions. Wouldn't do at all.
Some wouldn't recognise the truth if it hit them on the head.

seb

Who'd have thought it? The USA has '43 puppets'? Elizabeth, your perceptive analysis of global realpolitik, not to mention your spelling and propensity for personal insults, continues to gladden all who read these comments.

Augustus

"A load of 'cold war' tosh and nonsense" said Elizabeth. But Russia is a basket case in many ways. It has appalling social problems including high levels of alcoholism, HIV infection, and suicide. And while the Chinese now seem largely comfortable with the idea of capitalism, ordinary Russians seem to pine for the good old days. Above all, Russia's recovery from bankruptcy in the 1990s was built on the soaring oil price. all those petro-roubles pouring into the coffers have given Russia back its swagger. But as the deflating credit bubble leads to global economic downturn, the oil price is already falling. That's why, if russia wants to press home its advantage, it needs to do it now.

Elizabeth

Well Seb
Some of those puppets must be having second thoughts.
Over the past year or more the Americans and Israelis have sent in mega millions of arms, personal trainers and even 1000 troops the other week.
Yet when push comes to shove the 7th cavalry butts out.
There was a war criminal of a President, South Ossetian blood dripping from his rocket launchers, eating his tie (yes really!!) crying out for American support and all he got was Condi shaking her finger. 'Wow! really scary!!
The Americans bankrupt and over reaching themselves with their other illegal wars, impotent.
Mind you rumour has it the Russians have the bodies of Americans, Israelis and Ukrainians all in South Ossetia as part of the tank invasion which were shelling fleeing South Ossetian civilains as they ran for safety. Not least children.
Having seen that the Americans don't come up with the goods the other 42 puppets must be looking askance as to sticking out their necks too far.
The poor old tiger looked a bit toothless this time when faced by an angry, righteous and really riled bear.

seb

Dear Elizabeth. So, Condoleezza Rice is an example of what affirmative action throws up. Where were you brought up? Your mangling of Enlgish suggests that you're from Serbia. I would imagine that most Spectator readers would find this remark about Dr. Rice to be extremely racist. Please indicate why your comments are so vitriolic.

Ted Tedford

Elizabeth: I didn't insult you. And you've not addressed, still less refuted, any of my points.

The KLA is indeed a criminal organisation. It probably was a terrorist group, in that it killed K Serb non-combatants. I would be deeply uncomfortable about doing business with Thaci and Haradinaj.

But the KLA were *not*, and have never been, an Islamist group. A moderately close reading of my post would have saved your blood pressure.

To repeat: Thaci was not motivated by zeal for Islam. Milosevic was not defending Christianity. Putin is not taking a stand for international law.

And if I had to choose between life in Russia and Georgia, I'd pick the latter by a country mile - even after the punitive damage to its infrastructure by Russia.

Guy Incognito

@Elizabeth: Israeli personal trainers for Georgia? Presumably part of the neocon plan to dominate dancercise videos in Central Asia?

Elizabeth

Ted
So Osama Bin Laden, who is thoroughly documented as being in Albania together with the CIA etc and was part of the original creation of the KLA, is not an islamic jihadist.
So why the war on islamic terror?. According to you there is nothing islamic about it or OBL. Well I am sure you know better than thousands of excellent terrorist experts right across the internet.
I must say that your theory of the unislamic nature of the KLA is a one off, but if that is what you really believe - go to it. Just excuse me whilst I boggle at your gullibility.

Elizabeth

Seb
Me a Serb, dream on.
I can trace my English pedigree back centuries.
I am delighted to hear you admire Dr Rice.
Everyone has to have someone to admire and love them. Such people are in increasingly short supply in the case of Dr Rice - in the USA itself, never mind around the planet.
Please, do not let others views of her gross incompetence spoil your pleasure.
If you think she is the best thing since sliced bread enjoy your toast.
Most 'Spectator' readers probably love the new 'bumbling' Boris, Mayor of London. Hardly a recommendation for Condi.

Elizabeth

Ted
Some of your 'non islamic' KLA in action
http://mosquewatch.blogspot.com/2008/02/muslim-kosovars-behead-
christian-serbs.html
Just the tip of the iceberg. There is much much more.

seb

Hi, Elizabeth. You say you've heard that I admire Dr. Rice. How odd. I merely suggested that to attribute her appointment as Secretary of State to affirmative action might strike some as racist. At least the US has someone willing to behave like a foreign secretary. We have Mr. Miliband. I won't waste time letting you know what I think of young Dave since, as you're such an ace mind-reader, Lizzie, you already know this.
If you are English, then perhaps you'd benefit from taking some lessons in spelling and grammar. A profusion of mistakes in contributors' comments often confounds their intended meaning.

Did you understand this last sentence? No? I thought not.

Dovidjenja.

Ted Tedford

Elizabeth: We're talking to ourselves here, so I don't mind going on a bit.

If Colin Powell produced this sort of smoking gun at the UN as a casus belli, you’d correctly laugh him out of earshot.

Of course you can find contrary evidence. Of course there are Islamists in Kosovo. Blimey, there's probably a few in the KPC. But there are neo-Nazis in the British Army, and I wouldn't describe the British Army as a neo-Nazi organisation.

So I'm afraid you're just barking up the wrong tree here. The KLA was about Kosovo liberation, not converting Kosovo to Islam. It was thoroughly secular: witness Thaci’s policy platform as AKP leader. And if they had wished to radicalise Kosovo, they have had years to advance this agenda and they could have had money from Saudi, the Yemen, Kuwait, all the Arab governments trying to sow radical Islam in the region. If your analysis were correct, with the KLA leadership now established in power in Pristina, we should be seeing beards and veils and bans on alcohol, restrictions on women's freedom, inter-religious friction with the Jewish and Christian minorities, and all the other good stuff that gets people frothing at the mouth about Islamist subversion. But we haven't, which, given the influence of Serb apologists in Europe and the US, is surprising. More importantly, NATO has been in Kosovo for ten years. In that time, it has not seen any reliable evidence that there is any such project.

The fact is that the vast majority of Kosovo's mostly secular population does not *want* to be Islamised, and its Muslims don't want to be radicalised. They are successful at defending their Europeanised form of Sunni Islam. The country has one Islamic party, and it received less than 2% of the vote. In fact, being a Salafist/Wahabbist proselytizer in the Balkans is a dangerous business, as groups in Bosnia have found. And in Bosnia the mujihadeen have been assimilated, not the locals radicalised.

Why should that be? Well, mostly it's because Balkans Islam is a lot more agreeable: once you've been used to a touch of religious and cultural freedom, you tend to give it up less willingly.

For sure, there's a risk from radicalisation among Europe's Islamic fringes. And the supply of weapons and freedom of movement across national borders makes this a serious threat. Sadly, your type of cry-wolf hysteria that makes Albanian nationalists into Islamist terrorists makes combating the Arab-financed radicalisation projects much harder.

Good night, and try not to give yourself nightmares.

Ryuge

The video blow is quite humourous, but does bring home the whole 'Career of Evil' concept (c/o music by Blue Oyster Cult) and seems to compliment this article very nicely. Yes, there is a Stalin comparison, but Putin is far too pasty to pass for a Georgian:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-iinEDqxDcw