The Archbishop of Cant

Neil Ferguson

America's adventure in Iraq can be considered a humiliating failure by all rational means. Has the world become a safer place? Unquestionably not. Has the price of oil come down? Er, nope. Awkward. The Neocon project has turned to dust and ashes. What a shower.

Dee Ranged

This limp-wristed fool has done more to damage the moral and religious authority of the Church than is properly understood. Thanks for putting him in his place.

Adam

"You would also never think from his remarks that millions of Christians around the world are being persecuted and murdered by Muslims." Where is the evidence that millions of christians are being murdered around the globe by Muslims?????? If this was true, it would be genocide of the worst kind and reported everywhere - not just on this blog. You are allowing your pre-existing prejudices to cloud accurate reporting which is a charge often levelled against you by Muslims - and rightly in this case

Michael B

"not the most impressive." Well, at least there's some redemptive, if unintended, humor to be found in the Archbishop's offering, black humor though it be. Williams is yet another example of an eminent mind turned to mush and - cant. He triangulates when he should be exercising some backbone; he resorts to casuistries when he needs to divine and articulate a more principled dialectic, at elemental levels; or, much like Neil Ferguson above, he resorts to facile and putatively authoritative dictums and dogmas in order to preempt any questions/doubts about that presumptive authority and set of declarations. "Cant" is, all too precisely, the right word.

Mark Withers

Well done you have your finger on the button Melanie. We are still waiting for people in leading positions in the UK to speak the truth about Islam with rigour and robustness, without fear of offending people, although thank God for John Sentamu. Far better to do it now and face the liberal onslaught than when we are an Islamic caliphate. Islam has a very low threshold of tolerance, do we really need any more evidence? If you want evidence that Moslems are persecuting Christians around the world go to www.barnabasfund.org that highlights the plight of Christians in various Islamic dominated societies. I wonder why we don't hear more from the BBC and other national media about this. Some ancient political philosopher said you rule men through the Bible or the sword. I know which I prefer.

Shy Guy

Adam: www.persecution.org

Austin Barry

The Archbishop should never have quit his old acting career under the stage name of George "Gabby" Hayes when he would offer sage wisdom to no-nonsense neo-cons such as John Wayne.

Michael Petek

The Archdhimmi of Canterbury is only telling the Muslim community what he thinks the Islamists want to hear in the hope they'll eat him last.

Michael N

"It serves you. It does not serve the situation. Whenever people turn to violence what they do is temporarily release themselves from some sort of problem but they help no one else." He's right. The sacrifice made by brave men on the beaches of Normandy changed nothing, and served no-one. It was really just a discharge of petulant anger against the unfairly-reviled Third Reich... Puffed-up, woolly-brained, preening little blabbermouth, addicted to the purity of his own pronouncements. It is not the duty of a Christian leader to defend Western civilisation, but that does not mean he has a duty to attack it and whitewash the evil of its enemies whenever he opens his sacred mouth. It does mean he is supposed to be able to see through the consensus, rather than merely regurgitating the moronic malevolence of the anti-Israel mob.

korova

"It is hard to envisage a more ignorant set of comments." How about these: "It did not go into Iraq to accumulate territory or colonial power but because it believed that America and the free world were threatened by Saddam and by the terror-exporting states that surrounded it." I look forward to your post on the proposed Iraq Oil Law, should be most enlightening.

Barry Lynch

I know that one should avoid the ad hominem, but does this bewhiskered and befuddled old cleric really seem connected to any rational world, even that represented by his bathroom mirror?

korova

Mark Withers and Shy Guy: Yes, they deal with the issue of persecution, but Adam was specifically referring to her point that 'millions' of Christians have been murdered by Muslims. He did not dispute the persecution. Please find some evidence of the 'millions' being murdered, I suggest that you probably cannot.

W.Smith

This dhimmwit seems to be channeling Neville Chamberlain.

Philip Saenz

The Archbishop of Canterbury is silly. He doesn't even know the meaning of imperialism. That alone should tell you that an idiot like the Archbishop should be ignored. Ask him what lands the United States has conquered and kept. Where are the lands, Archy?

Alcuin

To Mr Ferguson: Counter insurgency operations, such as the Malayan emergency, usually last well over a decade. I suggest you let history rather than flawed "rationality" decide. The fat lady has yet to sing. When Williams was appointed, I was quite optimistic. But he is stuck in the self flagellating groupthink of the metropolitan Liberal elite, unlike his rather more clear-headed predecessor, Dr Carey. How we Brits disgrace ourselves in comparison to immigrant Bishops like Drs Sentamu and Nazir Ali, who seem to have a far better grasp of what right and wrong means than Williams. The difference is that they have looked evil in the face. One wonders what Williams would make of people like Abu Qatada.

Barry larking

If, as rumoured, the Anglican communion offers an apology to Moslems for the liberation of Iraq, then I, my Lord Archbishop, am out of the door.

From 732 A.D. ('Common Era' is only common to Christians, but is an early example of comprising with those who do not know compromise except as a tactic to produce downfall) to 1682 Islam threatened Christendom, as Europe was long named. For a thousand years Islam has been barking at the gates. Am I worried? Yes.

Nothing in Islam assures me that the future under the green flag would be anything like as rosy as under the stars and stripes. One has to actively distort reason to arrive at any other conclusion. Where is Islam do women and men have the right to worship or not worship as their conscience dictates? Do not hold your breath thinking about this.

Tim B.

And reading what Dr. Rowan's viewpoints are in these matters, and pretty much knowing what his view points are in matters of the Church, as an American, I am so glad that I belong to one of the Continuing Anglican Churches in America. I can actually say that I have absolutely nothing to do with the heretic.

Adam

Mark Withers at 12.52 - I don't deny that Christians are being persecuted and in many cases murdered by Muslims but persecution and murder by people of one faith of those belonging to another is going on all over the world. I would also draw a distinction between persecution and a lesser charge of denial of rights to practice religion. My objection is to the utterly misleading assertion of the murder of millions of christians by Muslims cited in this article which is factually inaccurate, hysterical, scaremongering and a baseless accusation which should be withdrawn by the writer.

Scipio

Why doesn't this pathetic metrosexual man just convert to Islam already and be done with it? I cannot imagine any enemy of Anglicanism doing more damage to the Church of England than Rowan Williams.

Ben Passfield

As (nearly) always, Mel says what we're all thinking. I'm aghast but unsurprised at the utter vapidity and wrong-headedness of his comments. An Anglican prelate with a penchant for anti-western self-flagellation? Is the Pope a Catholic etc.. To describe dysfunctional bunker collectivisms (cf. egypt), medieval monarchical absolutisms (cf. Saudi A), pro-jihadist theocracies (cf. iran) and genocidal tyrannies (cf. Sudan) as presenting "not the most impressive" political solutions - well, what can one say? Only that the chummy dismissiveness, apologetics and white-washing that characterise almost all of Dr W's public pronouncements on the world's most energetic persecutors of Christians couldn't be further removed from the energetic polemical activism directed at the US, israel and his own country.

Manuel

To say Rowan Williams is barking would be grossly unfair to dogs. Unfortunately his sort of mindless whine can be dangerous to the rest of his canine friends...and thee and me. Need he wonder why his church is in such a mess?

Alex Bensky

Of all the countries in the Middle East, there is one where the Christian population is growing. In all the others Christians are persecuted. Question: what's the one country in the area that does not persecute its Christians. Here are two hints: 1. The Archbishop doesn't like it; 2. Its residents' name rhymes with "you know whos."

gilmas

The Archibishop of Canterbury's efforts to sanitize the Muslim world are quite simply grotesque. Islamic fundamentalism is gaining the upper hand in many Arabic countries and is now waging an ideological war against Christians and Jews in every corner of the globe.

kate

Whatever it takes to get people out of false faiths, surely there'll be a mass exodus now.

Michael Fisher

Rowan Williams is a fine and a noble man. He's also - by virtue of his position - an easy target. Still, it's good to see that he's got the Green Ink Brigade suitably frothed up. Well done Melanie, keep up the good work.

Peter Thomas

Adam - you have misquoted Melanie. She states that 'millions of Christians around the world are being persecuted and murdered by Muslims.' You ask the question 'Where is the evidence that millions of christians are being MURDERED around the globe by Muslims?????? The phrase 'are being persecuted and murdered' is not a precise statement. It is obvious that the numbers persecuted will considerably outnumber those being murdered, and unlike murder, persecution can be a one off incident or a prolonged activity. Persecution is and has been going on for years in many places, Sudan, Turkey, Nigeria, Gaza, Bethlehem, Indonesia and Egypt (the Copts) for example and more recently in Iraq. Murder is less common, but there have been disgusting cases recently in Turkey, Gaza and Iraq in addition to the ongoing near genocide in the Sudan. When there are billions of Muslims and billions of Christians often living side by side, the suggestion that millions of Christians are being persecuted by Muslims is totally feasible (one million being only 0.1% of one billion). Christians are 'Dhimmis' to the Muslim, especially in the third world and in fundamentalist dominated areas.

D. Fentz

If America's intervention in Iraq is such a failure, why do the Iraqi's look for America to have a "long term presence" there? Do they prefer "freedom" to the alternative offered by their Islamist neighbors who indoctrinate, train and supply the suicidal killers that have murdered tens of thousands of Iraqi's at the behest of their "Islamofascist" masters and to the delight of the West's anti-American leftists - Arch-Bishops and such? Don't the Iraqi's know if they kicked the Americans out they too could join their neighbors in their quest for "Islamofascist" world domination?

L Bell

The Archbishop of Canterbury is an idiot. Although I don't agree with EVERYTHING he says,at least Pope Benedict has the courage of his convictions and is not ashamed to state them and stand by them. By the way, I'm an (embarrassed) Anglican.

Bogdan of Australia

How can an individual that claims to be conversating with God every minute of his life, display such a weak morality cowardice, and make a such flawed judgment? Or, is he perhaps, speaking to his own image reflected in his own twisted imagination that he is regarding as a God?

Anthony Ragan

The Archbishop would be a leading candidate for Twit of the Year, if Monty Python were still running the contest.

Mark Denton

Without wanting to sound too chomsky-esque, America went in for oil and influence, not to rid a brutal dictator. How do we know this?? America have supported many tyrants and even put them in place over the last 50 years. realism.

Stuart

"Mark Denton November 27th, 2007 10:45am Without wanting to sound too chomsky-esque, America went in for oil and influence, not to rid a brutal dictator. How do we know this?? America have supported many tyrants and even put them in place over the last 50 years. realism." Mark, can't wait for the oil to go back to 50p a litre then.

Martial Artist

Alcuin (in re your November 26th, 2007 3:52pm comment), I think your comparison with the Malayan emergency is particularly apt. Perhaps the single biggest mistake made by the U. S. leadership was the conflation of the two tasks this "war" would require, to wit: (a) neutralizing Iraqi military forces and deposing Hussein, and (b) restoring and maintaining order in the absence of a functioning civil government. This was, in all probability, former Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's error. If one examines the history of the past century or so, one finds that those occupations which were successful in producing a stable and productive society in the one or two decades succeeding invasion and conquest (primarily Germany, Italy and Japan all after WWII) required roughly one (1) occupying soldier on the ground for every twenty surviving inhabitants in the conquered nation. Anything substantially less than that has resulted in a failure to restore order and advance the cause of peace and prosperity. On the grounds that the U.S. administration failed to "count the cost," I believe there would be fairly widespread agreement. But, irrespective of that assessment, the outcome will not be known for some years, and the real question is what course U.S. (and any of her willing allies?) ought to pursue at present.

Morgan

"Mark Denton November 27th, 2007 10:45am Mark, you may have heard of 9/11 The rules have changed.

Neil Ferguson

And yet 9/11 was, for the most part, formulated and perpetrated by Saudi nationals. Oddly enough, we don't see American F16s flying over Riyadh. Why is that, I wonder? Could it be because it would be bad for business?

Martial Artist

Neil Ferguson, I don't believe the 7/7 bombers were Iraqi either, but they were also not Saudi. In point of fact, the government of Iraq under Saddam Hussein following the 1991 conflict blatantly refused to obey the terms of the cease fire to which they had agreed in the spring of 1991. The second (i.e., current) Gulf War started by the current President's administration should have been mooted by his father or President Clinton, within 24-48 months of that cease fire. Had either of those two worthies done so, the "current unpleasantness" might well have been unnecessary. They didn't, ergo, the current administration acted. The fact that you or I don't approve of the war is largely irrelevant. Since this blog thread is about +Cantuar's quoted comments, I would suggest that his quoted opinions, which I believe to be unrepresentative of reality, are the proper topic of discussion.

Andrew K

The Archbishop of Canterbury makes me proud to be Catholic.

gabe

'Where is the evidence that millions of christians are being MURDERED around the globe by Muslims?????? How about the missing armenian christian millions in Turkey for one?

Verity

That's a brilliant headline, and the opening sentence was a direct hit, too. I felt like cheering aloud. Michael Petek - Brilliant allusion. Neil Ferguson - it wasn't about Hallib-u-u-u-rton. It was about getting a democracy up and running in the Middle East that would impact on dictatorships. Already, we have seen that, magically, after seeing it routinely happening in Iraq on Al Jazeera, Saudi Arabia is thinking about letting women drive. One small step ... Scipio: " I cannot imagine any enemy of Anglicanism doing more damage to the Church of England than Rowan Williams." Thought of Prince Charles, Defender of Faith? I am not a Catholic, but I look to Pope Benedict to provide moral leadership out of this moral quagmire the lefties have dragged us into by degrading Christianity and elevating islam. The term the Religion of Peace only applies if you are the obedient type and don't mind giving up your civilisation to satisfy a medieval mind. That the Archbishop of Canterbury cannot see this tells me he chooses not to see it. Although there is always the possibility that he really is that stupid.

David Kelly

Proud? Yes, another staggeringly successful appointment by that "straightforward sort of a guy" Tony Blair who was apparently unable to admit that he was Catholic until he took up his new career as "honest broker" in the middle east peace process.

Martin Sewell

As an Anglican Lay Reader it saddens me to say that we simply have a sincere man in the wrong job. If he were an academic, then his scarcely un-reconstructed 60's radical view of the world might not be too harmful to the Communion, but as it is, his forays into the world of politics show him to be increasingly unsuited for the office he holds. When I want a truly thoughtful contribution to debates such as this I look to Michael Nazir Ali, Bishop of Rochester who knows about living under Islamic persecution and was sadly passed over By Tony Blair who appointed Archbishop Williams

wonderer

I see that one of the bloggers is called "korova". Is that real? It's also btw the Russian for a cow.

Matt Wardman

Did you actually read the interview, Melanie, or just the highly distorted news reports of it?