The blood runs cold

Mike

Melanie: What you fail to understand is that the curse of Islamism can only be dealt with within the Muslim communities. We (non-Muslims) should be directing our energies to helping them do this and not by your never ending tirade against anything of Islam. Who are you, of all people, to think you can help solve this problem with your mind set?

Tiberius

A message for the Canadian judiciary: "I'm Spartacus"!

Lee Jakeman

Although in absolute agreement with the sentiments expressed in this article, I can't say that I swallow the "America Alone" thesis. There are liberals in America who are every bit as Politically Correct as liberals anywhere else - they just don't happen to be in power at the moment. The USA can, overnight, do what Australia just did - go from right to left at a stroke. Also, I notice that there's a lot of "North American Union" stuff doing the circuit at the moment - almost a carbon copy of the EU in the underhand, anti-democratic way that the administration is going about it. The US also has an immigration problem just as bad as Europe's. They just happen to be violent, America-hating Hispanics instead of violent, America-hating Muslims. And there's a lot of them, too. Millions of them. But that hasn't stopped smug Americans from predicting the "Islamisation of Europe by the year 2030". 2030? Christ, by that time, the USA, on current trends, will have become "Greater Mexico", with those millions of Hispanic voters keeping a Liberal, self-hating, anti-American administration in almost permanent power in Washington. Americans are so smug about what's happening in Europe that they literally can't see the same thing happening on their own doorstep. As for the Israelis, they shouldn't take continued American support for granted. They should strive for self-sufficiency in all areas of arms manufacture - just in case.

Davo

IT is not so much that the Islamists are making slaves of us but rather that we are making willing slaves of ourselves. A society can only really be subverted when its occupants embrace their own slavery and are unaware that it has been forced upon them. "The Long march though our Institutions" in a classic example of Gramscian subversion over the last 30 years, attacks on virtually all our values and institutions, has produced amongst those who still think independently, a realisation that "all is lost". Our Judeo christian principles, belief in family values,et al, which were protective walls surrounding western culture have crumbled to dust leaving us ripe for the picking. The result of this staggering ongoing assault on our core values via the liberal elites has been that we have effectively lost our ability to defend ourselves. The fact that Islamists are seizing the opportunity to jump through the new gaping holes is down to our own stupidity. Hopefully it is NOT too late to come to our senses.

Earl

Correctly, these are not "judicial panels", but rather hopped-up, quasi-judicial administrative tribunals. Which means, their decisions do not have the binding force of precedent in law, and may be endlessly challenged through the Courts.

Further, should the governments so wish, their mandates may be summarily amended through Order-in-Council or by amending legislation.

Hang in there, Steyn- you'll be eventually exonerated and will watch CAIR-CAN hoist on its own petard.

BJ

Ah yes the same "celebrated author" Mark Steyn who gloated when Robert Fisk was beaten up by Afgans whose relatives had just been blown to bits in a western air strike. Liberal? A nasty piece of work more like.

ER

Dear Melanie, you have a following here in Canada. As usual, you summarise the situation accurately. We will try to get your column to our so-called "Human rights councils".

Joseph McNulty

Yes, I agree. The Orwellian world has truly arrived. We will be continually assured that "There is no reason to worry" until we are told that "It is too late to do anything." I said 20 uears ago that we would be living in a different country when Arabs outnumbered Jews. We are seeing that now with the govermment thinking, before taking any action, what will the Musllims think? What did Orwell say: "It is now the duty of every man to state the obvious." The irony here is that the Islamists are using our own doctrines, our accommodating nature, and ourbeliefs against us, and our beliefs have become so threadbare as to be abandoned undefended in the name of "multiculturalism." Saddest of all is that even you -- a tough and clear-eyed observer -- have been reduced to despair in so many areas, such as the Middle East "peace" process. What will replace the delusions of New Labor? The worse delusions of the "Conservatives." We see the same thing here in America. We seem to have only two wings of the ruling class, which is self-deluding, deaf, and blind. Has anyone read the Qur'an? Why do we not take it seriously? Muslims take it more literally than any of the feared "Fundamentalists" takes the Bible. To them, it is the literal Word of God. Sharia is just that system of law flowing from Allah's words in the Qur'an. You know that we can fit into that system only as "dhimmis." Girls are wearing Palestinian scarves as fashion. Can it be too long before swastika armbands become a fashion accessory?

Spencer R. de Vere

More evidence that the HUMAN RIGHTS package, including its para-judicial apparatus, is a danger to INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY and freedom generally

Turner

Mark Steyn is even more of a headbanger than Mel. Anyone remember his singularly unpleasant columns in the Telegraph? No? Probably for the best.

Rob

But it's not being "dealt with" Mike! And meanwhile they are killing and terrorising vast numbers of non-Muslims as well as fellow Muslims; so it's a problem which Melanie and all of us other non-Muslims have EVERY right to want to solve! You Mike have the classic soft racism of low expectations combined no doubt with the usual "evil oppressive West" mindset of today's lost lefties.

Frank

The Islamist strategy in America is modified somewhat, to get around that pesky first Amendment, which neither Britain nor Canada have. The only way for the government to censor free speech is to declare it a hate crime, and it's difficult to prove speech as hate en masse. But rest assured they're working on it, and with ample help from the "Good Liberals".

Michael N

Melanie: for once I'm troubled by your logic. If someone claimed that Judaism was incompatable with liberal society, you'd prove them wrong by shrugging it off with a smile? Or would you fight the racists with every weapon civil society offers you? Aren't you worried that by claiming the muslims' reactions validate Steyn's thesis, you are echoing those who claim that the reaction to Walt-Mearsheimer was proof that they were right? Please don't misunderstand - I agree with you absolutely on the principle of this case - but on this particular point of logic I'm troubled. I support Steyn 100%, he's right, and he's a great writer. I don't blame the islamists for using the weapons we stupidly offer them, I blame the liberals who set up these disgusting kangaroo courts. In the real legal system the canadian muslims wouldn't have a leg to stand on, the case would be thrown out before reaching court. Good luck Mark Steyn, keep fighting the good fight. And Tiberius - well said indeed: I'm Spartacus.

field

I don't buy the "Judeo Christian values" nonsense. One could equally argue that it is precisely the Judeo Christian substrate which allows Islam to percolate into our body politic, which prevents us blocking its advance, because it too is an "Abrahamic faith". Democracy and liberty have been won in opposition to Judeo Christian values. Both Judaism and Christianity sought to impose unchanging religious laws on its followers. Catholicism was virulent in its opposition to democracy until the mid 20th century. Orthodox Judaism still considers that religious laws cannot be overruled by democratic institutions. Whilst I would concede that the history of Judaism and Christianity contributed to the growth of democratic values their values were and often still are in conflict with secular, democratic values. We know that far too many Jewish and Christian clerics are willing to indulge in the pretence of Islam as a "religion of peace" and rarely speak our forcefully against murder of apostates, oppression of Muslim women, mistreatment of Jews and Christians in Islamic countries, persecution of critics such as Ayann Hirsi Ali etc.

Robert

Spot on as usual Melanie. However if anyone can expose them with withering humour it is Mark Steyn.

Ian

And how many converts to Islam have you known Melanie?The fact is they are relatively few in number in the western world and it is going to stay that way.Those westerners that do convert are not regarded as real Muslims by the adherents of that faith anyway.

Myra

What happens when we are tolerant of the intolerant?

Thothal

Mike: Sir, what you fail to understand is your own argument. Clearly it is as good a definition of non-islamist muslims as any, that they wouldn't agree with the harrassment of such a mild critic of Islam as Steyn. Then giving them moral support - like Ms Phillips' entry does - is exactly the help what you ask for. More importantly the premise of your argument that the "curse of Islamism can only be dealt whith within the Muslim communities" is false - in fact the opposite is true.

Matt

"the curse of Islamism can only be dealt with within the Muslim communities." Mike, I don't think you've even begun to understand the nature of the problem. The people you call Islamists are the 100% Muslims. They are the ones who follow Islam as it was originally proposed. The 50% Muslims, or "moderates" as they are often called, cannot possibly convince the 100% Muslims that they're wrong. Because they're not! At least not in Islamic terms. Therefore the solution cannot lie within the Islamic community. It is up to the rest of us to shine the full light of western critism and analysis onto this medieval creed, and try to convince individual Muslims that the path they are following is wrong. The first step in this strategy must be to attack the penalties for apostasy. Why don't you, Mike, ask any Muslim you know whether they agree with the death penalty for those leave Islam. Their answer will at best be evasive, because the prophet Muhammad himself said "If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him."

Austin Barry

Having lived in Canada for twenty years I can confirm that there is a disconnect between the limp-wristed liberal elite and the people, whose views on the establishment's white-flag waving, bleeding heart and supine position on these matters are somewhat, er, robust.

Ferguson

Steyn is an odious little man, and deserves everything that is coming to him. Thankfully the mainstream British media no longer publish his half-baked rants.

Pablo

If you were a socialist, wouldn't you try to silence a Steyn "by any means necessary." In the USSR, NAZI Germany, Khmer Rouge's Cambodia, Fidel's Cuba, Mao's China the socialists murdered their opponents en masse. In Canada, a much more civilized place, the Left will still get its show trial (maybe even three shots at it), but I'm betting Steyn won't lose his life over it. Islamophobia or discrimination has nothing to do with it. The Left just uses the tools it has at its disposal. Syen is the kinda guy you gotta go after. Only a Useful Idiot would take the merits of the actual complaint seriously.

wayne

read America Alone one of these days

Mike

So we 'non-muslims' must be on a Crusade must we? To show ALL Muslims the error of their ways, and convert them to our ways and values. And those that won't convert we simply dispose of I suppose. I have to ask, are ALL Muslims expected to integrate into a British life-style, for example? A life-style of 'Big Brother', ladette culture, binge drinking, vomiting, and urinating in the street, the unacceptable high rate of abortions, neglect of the elderly etc etc. The vast majority of Muslims are upright Britons making as much contribution to their country as anyone else. They are the silent majority of hard working Muslims in business and the professions who do not seek to turn religion into politics. They are NOT jihadis. A civilised world doesn't build 'Walls' between people - it treats everyone fairly, with tolerance, and above all with justice. My belief is that British Islam will emerge as an example for the rest of the planet, and we should be doing all that we can to encourage it. Whether we like it or not, its here to stay, and those that can't deal with it should go and find their own land to live in - if they can find one.

Tom

Melanie I enjoy reading your blog greatly. One small query though, why have you not posted about the MCB dropping the boycott of Holocaust day?

mara williamson

Melanie, keep it coming. We need you so badly.Kindest regards and all power. Mara,

mara williamson

Melanie, keep it coming. We need you so badly.Kindest regards and all power. Mara,

Austin Barry

Mike, lovely yuletide homilies, but did the implications of 7/7 and 21/7 pass you by?

Stuart

And in Liberal Britain a forum poster can say "Jew, Zionist, Neo-Con whats the difference let's call a Jew a Jew. 99.9999 % of Jew are Zionists so why not just give them there proper name. The Quran makes no reference to Zionists or Neo-cons, Its the Jew that we need to be wary of. And before anyone shouts Anti Semite I'm not an anti Semite because Arabs are semites and I'm very pro Arab" http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?p=455461#post455461 and no-one bats an eyelid! And, elsewhere in webland we have "However, the Zionist Pig Jews need sorting out!!! They, the Zionist Jew Pigs death is acceptable!" at IslamOnline http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1196786316878&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout. When will we tackle the REAL race hatred across Liberal Democratic Europe?

Stuart

This situation in Canada reminds me of the trial in Australia of two Christian preachers who commented negatively about Islam and The Koran. They were taken to court for 'hate speech'. WHen a defendant spoke in his defence the Judge stopped him and said "I won't have hate speech in my court. This is what you are accused of". "But Your Honour, I am only quoting from the Koran!". The were still found guilty but I believe won their appeal.

Stuart

Tom, your question about MCB and HMD:- The decision was not unanimous at MCB. In fact they state that their survey of public members were still against it. It was a committee majority. Even so they are mealy-mouthed. Their statement says "The Muslim Council of Britain has previously not participated in the Holocaust Memorial Day because it felt that the event was not properly inclusive of genocides of more recent times." I am bold enough to state this is completely untrue. HMD features discussions and projects on different Genocides while centering them on The Holocaust. If they want a general Genocde Day then let's have one AS WELL. We would, of course, include The Holocaust. But we know the decision was political because they want to get the Palestinian situation classed as a Genocide. In that case let's include Armenia too. Let's call the Arab Slave Trade a Genocide of Black Africans. The point is that Toys 'r Us don't sell fish and Holocaust Memorial is based on what it says on the label. MCB statement http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-693 Of course, this decision had NOTHING to do with being specifically criticised for not attending by Ruth Kelly and in Parliament (Hansard - David Gauke MP). MCB has dropped out of Government funding and favour. Since then Fr Bari of MCB has told us that Britain is becoming like Nazi Germany. With views like that it would be perverse not to attend HMD. Apologies to Melanie if I covered anything she may have wished to write.

Stuart

Mike, I find your post quite scary and defeatist. Raise the yellow flag. That is the colour that Dhimmis had to wear! Not all Brits are binge-drinking rapist and drug takers. Note the criminal involvement of some Muslim gangs in drugs and prostitution as well as the prison population for Muslims being about 10% versus the 3% of British population. I raise this so that we don't get the idea that Muslims and Islam have the answers to what you say ails us.So, just as there isn't a single flavour Brit, so there isn't a single flavour Muslim. The idea about integrating isn't so much "Be like us British" as "Stop trying to impose on us ideas from the Shariah of Islam". Its British not to upset your host at the dinner party. Its British to 'get on with it'. Its British to wait in a queue and wait your turn instead of pushing to the front (a metaphor). We don't get dissonance from young professional Muslims who make their way, pay their way and contribute. We get it from people who wish things were changed to make it easier for them while impinging on historical British values. Surely, they can be happier elsewhere (as Tony Blair once said) Watch Channel Four "Make Me a Muslim".

Corsair

Mark Steyn did not laugh at Robert Fisk for getting beaten up - he laughed at him for the deliciously self-flagellating guilty-white-liberal article he (Fisk) wrote to titilate his bien pensant readership after the event (if he was, in fact, ever beaten up). Steyn also - quite correctly - criticised Fisk for his 'new racism' - for regarding Afgans as being incapable of moral agency. The article's here http://www.spectator.co.uk/archive/features/9584/part_5/the-grapes-of-wrath.thtml In this day of the internet, it's easy to check the facts.

Cliff Thompson

Its about time someone spoke up ,how has a nation that fought for freedom against agression in two world wars become such a gutless nation of arse kissers

Michael N

Mike, you applauded me for speaking my mind on another thread, so you won't object to my doing so again. What percentage of these upstanding muslim citizens of yours stated to pollsters that they see British Jews as valid targets in the struggle for 'freedom' in the Middle East? What percentage wish to see the evil of sharia holding sway in the UK? You seem so sure of their intentions, I presume you know the answers to those questions. If you do, why are you ignoring this evidence of widespread radical sympathies in younger muslims? Allow me to answer your question, "So we 'non-muslims' must be on a Crusade must we? To show ALL Muslims the error of their ways, and convert them to our ways and values. And those that won't convert we simply dispose of I suppose. I have to ask, are ALL Muslims expected to integrate into a British life-style, for example? A life-style of 'Big Brother', ladette culture, binge drinking, vomiting, and urinating in the street, the unacceptable high rate of abortions, neglect of the elderly etc etc" Well Mike, it's an overheated question but let's answer it anyway. We don't seek to convert people, we don't seek to change them, we don't try to impose our attitudes on them. But we do object to them imposing their views on us. (And incidentally, if we are going to characterise Western liberal society by cherry-picking its very worst elements, can we do the same for muslims? Can I categorise those holocaust-denying mass-murder-threatening muslims outside the Danish Embassy as being representative and typical?) We object also to the silence and passivity of the muslim population in the face of worldwide jihadist murder, when they are capable of mobilising in their tens of thousands to object to American foreign policy, Israeli actions against Hezbollah, or the publication of cartoons that satirised a religious figure. My rule of thumb is this: if tens of thousands of muslims can mobilise when they object to Israeli, or American, or Danish actions, then their failure to stand up and be counted publicly in condemning jihadist violence indicates at best an ambivalent attitude. I look forward to them proving me wrong. "Those that won't convert we simply dispose of I suppose" - what utter nonsense. Utterly empty rhetoric. Yeah, Mike, the plan is to "dispose of" muslims who won't convert to x-factor and public vomiting... Talk sense! But here's the thing Mike; if I want to get drunk, spout profanities, dress like a whore, and make my opinions on ANY religion known, or on the character of a tribal warlord named Muhammed, I will do so, and in a civil society I expect to be able to do so without stones being thrown, death threats being received, pseudo-legal actions taken to attempt to silence me. Muslims can believe whatever they want about God and about my behaviour or attitudes - I won't try to convert them or silence them. If people like Mark Steyn are allowed the same freedom by muslims, that would be a good start.

Mike

Stuart: So what do you suggest should happen now? Go on tell me. I really do want to know how you would legislate for all that you would want to bring everything to your view of the world. Perhaps you can an answer if you browse enough! And please don't talk to me about 'raising a Yellow flag'. You know nothing about me or what I've done in my life.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Earl, though it may be that "these are not "judicial panels", but rather hopped-up, quasi-judicial administrative tribunals. Which means, their decisions do not have the binding force of precedent in law, and may be endlessly challenged through the Courts." Nonetheless, anyone targetted by the tribunal is forced to devote large amounts of money and time to his own defense. Not everyone has those resources available, nor should anyone have to spend years and thousands of dollars to defend himself against charges of thoughtcrime.

Stuart

Will the police FINALLY do something about this:- "British children targeted with sing-along DVD for would-be suicide bombers" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=503195&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments . From the Daily Mail:- " children's sing-along DVD for would-be suicide bombers is being investigated by police after being found on sale in one of Britain's terrorist hotbeds. The disturbing disc of music videos - part of an Egyptian-made series - shows a young girl singing about following in the footsteps of her suicide bomber mother. A group of self-proclaimed orphans also turn against the West over the plight of the Palestinian people. The shocking DVD was purchased in Bradford, West Yorks, and full details of the Leeds-based UK distributors are contained on the back of the cover. The West Yorkshire Police specialist counter terrorism unit are investigating the contents - which contain three tracks sung by children in Arabic with English subtitles" Here is your chance Britain to show that we might be liberal but we will enforce laws on incitement to terrorism. We'll see!

Michael N

Mike, your question to Stuart is rather vague, and once again overheated - the sense gets lost somewhere about halfway through. Although you didn't address it to me, I'll take the liberty of answering it with specific reference to the topic of this thread. What would I like to happen next? I'd like the Canadian government to step in, quash the bullying, censorious action brought by the Canadian Muslim Congress, shut down the pseudo-legal "human rights" kangaroo courts that exist to enable this sort of injudicial nuisance suit, apologise to Mark Steyn and the magazine which published his article, reprimand the Muslim organisation involved, and ensure that religious pressure groups never again have the power in a civil society to bully writers or publishers into silence with the threat of McCarthyesque quasi-trials invoking the elastic term "human rights". I would further like the Canadian government (followed by all governments in the West) to publicly inform all citizens and all religions that to live a life free from the possibility of being offended or of hearing things with which you disagree, is not, has never been, and never will be one of our "human rights" in western civil society, no matter how intensely or religiously we believe in our beliefs. That vast majority of peace-loving, tolerant, upstanding muslim citizens of which you speak should, you will agree, have no problem with a single part of that.

gareth

Let's face it, the "liberal Left" has never believed in free speech. Our own beloved government showed its true colours when it branded an old lady a "racist" when she complained about the quality of nursing in the NHS. Free speech now depends almost entirely on the internet: the mainstream media have been taken over by the "liberal Left".

Mike

Michael N: There aren't a 'million miles between us'(forgive the cliche). I agree with most of what you say in your last post, but I have a number of problems with the one preceeding. You are probably aware that I oppose Israel's continued military presence in the Occupied territories, and the Zionist stranglehold on America's Foreign Policy so I don't wish to get into that again on this thread. There will be, I'm sure, other opportunities for me to try and explain my reasons for Muslims being very, very angry indeed about the conflicts in the ME, as indeed I am!

Steyn Supporter

Just for the record, I remember Mark Steyn's columns in The Telegraph and I liked reading them.

Herbert Thornton

Melanie's article is depressingly accurate.

Political correctness is rotting western society from within and makes it increasingly likely that the burder of preserving civilisation is going to fall on Russia and China.

AWZ

Also see http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=175234&p=1. The money quotation from Alan Borovoy, general counsel to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, "during the years when my colleagues and I were labouring to create such commissions, we never imagined that they might ultimately be used against freedom of speech."

D Vieira

Posted by IanDecember 18th, 2007 3:24am And how many converts to Islam have you known Melanie?The fact is they are relatively few in number in the western world and it is going to stay that way.Those westerners that do convert are not regarded as real Muslims by the adherents of that faith anyway. Wow. You really must read up on the insane rate of conversion of black american inmates to islam. It's so bad, a U.S. judicial on Glenn Beck said a name had been coined for it "Prizlam".

Michael N

Mike, there may sadly be many more miles between us than you imagine. I would say you fail to appreciate the extent to which Israel and the USA are culturally and politically natural allies; I simply don't see the need for any Zionist Conspiracy to account for the fact that American foreign policy does not follow your particular views on the M.E. situation. This common notion - that your particular views are so self-evidently just and correct that the US government would naturally adopt them as their own if it weren't for the interference of a powerful Jewish conspiracy, well, it strikes me as being refreshingly free from the baggage of logic, history, or evidence. As Walt-Mearsheimer now admit, the US ignored Israeli advice on Iran and attacked Saddam instead - which fatally undermined almost their entire thesis, but this has not stopped it being popular or convincing to those predisposed to find it so. Even Chomsky has little time for these theories of Zionist control over US policy; as he put it in response to Wlt-Mrshmr, the tail doesn't wag the dog. Given the fact that the majority of Israel's enemies are either dictatorships with appalling human rights records or terrorist militias like Hezbollah, why do you suppose that America's support for Israel must be the result of nefarious underhand Zionist influence? I think the best answer to this kind of thinking is actually to be found in Wlt-Mrshmr: as they would have it, there is no 'realistic' reason for America's support of Israel - no oil, no military advantage, no real influence in the region to be had from it. To me, that indicates that America makes a choice based on a shared worldview and natural affinity. Given that America gains nothing from its friendship with Israel, and given that Israel's enemies are so oil-rich, you really must think that this handful of Zionist whisperers have almost supernatural powers of persuasion! Your use of the words "Zionist stranglehold" are enough in themselves to demonstrate the distance between us.

Mike

Stuart: Allow me to try and answer my own question to you. I'm far from being a lawyer, but should Islamism ever achieve a momentum (which I doubt), which seeks to bypass the British Democratic process, and impose a Sharia State, or any other ideology in its place, then this amounts to treason and I would be the first to take whatever steps were necessary to eliminate it. I'm aware this won't satisfy others on this thread, but its better, perhaps, than no answer at all. My only other point, (I did watch the Ch4 programme last night), is that we should differentiate religion from the political. Hence my criticism of Zionist-led Israel, but never of the religion followed by Jews elswhere. No doubt this will be too simplistic for some.

Michael N

Mike, foreseeing accusations of simplicity does not, alas, disarm them. We should not differentiate between the political and the religious in instances where a religious community seeks powers that can be described as political - for instance, (to return again to the subject of this thread), the power to control the freedom of speech enjoyed by its critics. As to your assertion that you stand ready to take-on Islamism when it "achieves a momentum" that seeks to bypass our democracy, the studied ambiguity of your phrasing hardly inspires me to believe that we are all safe in your hands. At what point can it be said to have achieved a momentum? You're very good at asking what you see as concrete policy questions of others, and I'd be interested to hear where you would personally draw the line: what do you mean by 'achieving a momentum' that seeks to subvert democracy? How will you know when that has happened? You have more faith in your analytical skills than I have in yours and mine combined. Many British muslims claim to want to see Sharia implemented here. If it is to happen, it will happen slowly, piece by small piece, and it will be accompanied by the type of thing we are seeing in Canada - repeated attempts to stifle criticism. We will naturally hear very little about it from the BBC and the mainstream media, and yet, if it were to happen, you claim to be stood firm, antennae finely tuned, waiting for the tipping point, ready to jump into the fray and defend liberty. Let me ask another question, Mike. You claim to be ready to use whatever steps are necessary to defend democracy from religious law; what steps? What will you do? What is your plan? Without a good answer to this question, it could be said that you have offered nothing but platitudes. What, do you really think that we should all sit back and relax, reassured that Mike the Moderate, who sees a "Zionist stranglehold" over American foreign policy, is ready to step in and defend democracy when *he* judges that Islamists have gone too far? Thanks for the offer, but forgive me if I look elsewhere for the protections that civil society depends upon.

Mike

Michael N: You are in too much of a hurry to solve this British problem. Not unlike a US President who wants to 'save the world' (with the help of his god) in 2 terms, if he's lucky. The priority for me is to have Israel withdraw from its 1967 Occupation of Palestinian lands (please don't come back with 'it never was theirs'), remove the settlers, (even Melanie may agree with this), and then you will witness a resurgence of justified support for Israel, and the beginning of a disarming of extremist Islam. I can't think of a better way to 'protect' you. Israel calls the shots, and has all the power. It could start tomorrow if it wished. Meanwhile, no doubt you will continue to link the justified militant and often violent resistance of Palestinian Muslims, with all other Muslims wherever they may be.

Hettie

The only thing Steyn should do is to get videos from Memri (may I suggest the one about the suicide bombers enacted by children in Gaza) and show them to the "court".

Mike

Michael N: Since starting the comments on Melanie's thread, I've started to read Ed Husain's 'The Islamist'. He is a shining example of the British Muslim who should be encouraged and supported. If you read the book I'm sure you will better understand what I've trying to say to you.

Thothal

Mike: how do you think to "encourage and support" Husain without discouraging and fighting Hizb ut Tahir? Because that's all what Ms Phillips is saying above (also in her Diary entry from May 13 about Husain's book). As an aside: you should read Julius Stone's book "Israel and Palestine: Assault on the Law of Nations".

Mike

Thothal: In my view one can either ban Hizb ut Tahir or allow it to fade away. I simply don't know the extent of its influence in Muslim countries generally, but I suspect they would be far more vigorous in opposing it than Britain would. In the last paragraph of Husain's book he says 'Without a doubt, a British Islam is emerging. It remains to be seen whether it is in harmony with the world in which it finds itself, or if it rejects and repels it. The direction we take at this critical juncture will determine the type of Islam we bequeath to future generations. The future of Islam is being shaped now'. I must now read what he writes prior to this before any possible further comment at this time.

Andy Dickinson

Mark Steyn - Victimized by an immigration policy he has never opposed.

Keith

54 highly readable (but for one, and there is always one)comments. Could a blog site like this one exist in a Sharia-law governed state? Would someone like Melanie (a woman) be allowed to write as she liked there? Does any Muslim country have a weekly of the calibre of the Spectator? If someone can answer these questions in the affirmative, I might accept the view that Islam is a viable alternative to western democracy. And please can we all recognise once and for all that the Crusades were a counter attack to recover Christian lands conquored by Islamists, not an invasion by an aggressive imperialist West.

Corlyss

"Who are you, of all people, to think you can help solve this problem with your mind set?" This is how we are helping them. They have to understand that they are not going to use our own institutions to destroy us. If we don't have enough pride in our culture to defend it, then we deserve what the Islamofascists will deal out to us. I want to fight for my culture. If you want to lie down and spread 'em for the people who would destroy your culture and kill you for not conforming, fine. Include me out.