Unspeakable

Aidan Quinlan

The initial female voice on BBC radio reports told us the attacks on the seminary were linked to illegal settlements on the West Bank. Beyond shameful.

field

An awful attack and appalling that anyone, let alone people who claim to be a democratically elected government, should approve it and laud the perpetrator. On a technical point - of course from your point of view Melanie, if he was a resident of East Jerusalem, he was a resident of Israel.

London Calling

Yes Melanie,this is evil, but we must speak of it,and we are. My thoughts are...will Israel respond and add to this evil,the death of innocence or will she have wisdom and not fall victim to this continuous ploy by evil to get her to react and fall from grace. Israel must embrace the Palestinian people who also want change and then the enemies of Israel will have no choice but to embrace change also or fade away . Hamas are made out to be hero's to the Palestinian people, because Israel made them the hero's, because the persecuted evolved into the persecutors,by reacting to evil with evil, therefore there should be no more bloodshed by Israel,let her wisdom fight instead, for it is more powerful than evil, otherwise we shall all fall into the pit of hell together.

George Steiner

It is not unspeakable evil madam. As with the scorpion it is their nature

Mike Zarb

Unarmed children were slaughtered. No doubt the 'International Community' will demand Israel show restraint. Israel must ignore this repugnant sentiment and act in such away that Hamas and those Palestinians who support Hamas are destroyed. As a non-Jew I am appealing to the Jewish people and Israelis in particular to stand up against this onslaught. And don't count on international support because the Liberal media and the Progressives seem only to tolerate Jews who are dead or being led into the gas chambers. They don't like to see a strong Jewish soldier protecting his homeland. I keep hearing "never again" but here we go again, the new Holocaust.
Enough pandering to the pan-Arabits and Islamists!

My deepest condolences to the families of those who were slaughtered last night.

Robert Greenberg

Dear Mel These acts should, and have been condemned by many Palestinians including the Palestinan leader Abbas. http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL01291722. Perhaps the 'unspeakable evil' you refer to is much the same as when in 1994, Baruch Goldstein deliberately targeted and slaughtered 29 Muslims at prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque (within the Cave of the Patriarchs)and wounded another 150. Perhaps when ''they'' 'rejoice on the streets' it is very similar to how Goldstein's act is celebrated in Israel to this day. Indeed, from, wikipedia, The gravesite has become a pilgrimage site for those with extreme right-wing political views; a plaque near the grave reads "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel." In 2000, admirers gathered at his grave on Purim dressed as Goldstein, wearing lab coats, false beards, and carrying guns.[18] Between the killings and 2000, an estimated 10,000 people have visited the grave.[19] All this does not take away one iota from the terrible acts committed yesterday. By ignoring the uneven distribution of power within the conflict in the middle east in your analysis as well seeing the very real threat of anti-semitism (although this is very different from the form based on a concept of Germanic descent in the 1930's) from within the Palestinian population and seeing this as eternal hostility towards the Jews only makes the situation more dangerous. Anti-semitism becomes something that cannot be undertood in terms of the political reality of the situation today. This in no way justifies Anti-semitism towards the Jews or the equally real Jewish racism towards the Palestinians. Should 'evil' be unspeakable? Are acts of state terror ever evil? Is Zionism without it's victims?

Joshua

Do those individuals and organisations in Britain and elsewhere who have called on Israel only to engage in "proportional responses" now suggest that an IDF unit should burst into a Muslim religious school and shoot dead eight students?

boblatchford

Ms Phillips, when the Israeli media is full of self congratulation, and slaps on the back regarding 'successful operations' in Gaza that leave 100 dead in 2 days, how is that different to the people in Gaza celebrating what is PERCEIVED (please note the word perceived before attacking me, this is not my view, I think its a cowardly act of terrorism) as a 'succesful operation'? I think it is mightly short sighted, or deliberately obtuse to carry out the massacres in Gaza that the IDF have carried out and expect no retaliation. So here we go again....how many more dead Palestinians? How many more retaliatory attacks? How much longer must this endless orgy of bloodlust and violence continue, with Israel and its friends wagging fingers on one side, the rest of the world on the other tutting at both sides? The only way to end this is to talk. Please dont trot out the 'Hamas are sworn to our destruction' line, because Hamas removed this line from the manifesto that they were elected to power on. They have spoken countless times of willingness to engage with Israel. This is a fact that these pages will never acknowledge. If Israel wants peace, there is no point talking to Abbas, who has no mandate to talk on behalf of the people, it must, I repeat MUST, talk to Hamas. If it doesnt, this cycle of violence will continue for the next 100 years

Daniel Goldwater

Are you sure that this even happened?? When I hear a BBC, CNN broadcast I hear that 8 People were killed by a gunman in Jerusalem ?? Pretty vague no Jews, no palestinians I wonder who the 8 people were and who the gunman was?? This is like a sterile wipe a matter of fact flu shot or maybe an aberration. All but one of the victims was a teenager and two were as young as fifeteen. CHILDREN, no UN condemnation, no shock horror that 8 devout Jews were slain in a religious seminary. The west is sicker than I ever immagined.

niconoclast

Almost as soon as the news broke the BBC was using the dreaded predictable phrase 'need for restraint' re Israel. Funny they never use that word in reference to Hamas. They also refer to Hamas 'militants'. Wonder if they referred to 'Nazi militants' 60 years ago?

Jan Maciag

There will probably be outrage in the Guardian and at the BBC as it is ‘revealed’ that the attacker was 'executed' without being warned beforehand. Such is the spirit of moral inversion!

Jon_Boy

Listening to radio 4 news to day I was sickened. Geremey Bowen et al spent the whole morning justifying and excusing this act of murder. The BBC long ago moved away from simply reporting news and are now simply a political mouth piece for the Palastinian movement as well as for all other worldwide Islamically backed endeavours. I would just like the ability to exercise a democratic right not to fund this vicious and politically driven organisiation. Unfortunately I am forced to fund them even if I were to only watch Sky satelite channels. I would just like to warn the general populace that they too will one day realise what the BBC is when they are reporting about Islamic insurgencies which are taking place in Britain. Then when you can see out of your own window and your own streets what is really happening you will then realise the full horror of the BBC's lies and true allegancies. Unforunately by then it will already be too late.

Ravi

At MPAC UK a poster advocated revenge against Jews for the woes of the Palestinians. http://theymadeitup.squarespace.com/the-latest-news-and-discussion/2008/3/6/mpac-uk-palestinians-versus-jews-seek-revenge-against-them.html. On BBC Jeremy Bowen essentially called the Israeli Ambassador a liar when Proser stated that Israel doesn't occupy Gaza. Bowen says "not under International Law". On BBC 5Live Richard Bacon continually used the balancing moral inequality about "120 Palestinians being killed" without ever telling us how many were Terrorists. His point "Well if the Islae of Man was blockaded..." to qualify why Gazans fired missiles at Israel without stating the fact that any blockade was a RESPONSE to Hamas missiles NOT the cause! I can hear it all now "Well, its a tragedy BUT....." Our prayers go with the victims families. This was deliberate targetting of civilians. The ONLY modus operandi of Palestinian Terrorists.

JJS

Robert Greenberg (if that is your real name)- what on earth is your agenda? Has anyone on this blog ever said that Goldstein's acts were anything but evil? What is the point of bringin it up except... (well, we know what).

field

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Greenberg to bring this up on a debating and comment site such as this but of course it is clearly an entirely false analogy: 1. While Hamas the elected government (or one half of it) of Palestine approves of the attack wholeheartedly, the Israeli does not and never has approved of the Goldstein attack. 2. A tiny minority of Jews do consider Goldstein a hero.But a LARGE proportion of Palestinians - quite possibly a majority - approve of the actions of the terrorist responsible for yesterday's outrage. So, there is no comparison. I am interested to see how sincerely Abbas's government condemn the attack. There's been a bit of Taqiyyah in the past.

Andy Gill

@boblatchford "I think it is mightly short sighted, or deliberately obtuse to carry out the massacres in Gaza that the IDF have carried out and expect no retaliation. " I have news for you. The IDF did not carry out a massacre in Gaza, they attacked terrorists who were firing rockets at Israeli civilians. This is known as 'self-defence', a right which is accorded to every country in the world, with the exception of Israel is seems.

Joe Strummer

I'm just amazed the disgusting BBC and others are not condemning the " shoot to kill policy" of the Israelis for " executing" this poor oppressed mass murderer. God bless the families of those poor children massacred by this monster.

Hyam

I switched on BBC's News 24 last night and from 9.45pm for about 10 minutes, Gada Kharmi the well-known Hamas supporter, was talking over the live pictures, 'explaining' why these murders took place, without ANY interruption from the 2 dummies aka presenters. Unbeleivable!

Joshua

"I think it is mightly short sighted, or deliberately obtuse to carry out the massacres in Gaza and expect no retaliation" If you believe that killing civilians during the course of a military action constitutes a "massacre" then you must also believe that Britain's armed forces have carried out massacres in every single war in which they have been involved. Logically, you must also support attacks by Serbs, Afghans and Iraqis against civilians in Britain.

Sergey

Those praying in Hebron in no way were innocent victims, they were plotting pogrom and held under carpets iron rods. That is why Barukh Goldsteyn is considered hero: he gave his life to save his brothers from terror plot. Attackers in Jerusalem don't have this justification.

Joe

There's another BBC bias at work as well. The attack on the seminary was rightly the lead item on the 10 p.m. news last night. However, the news that 68 people were murdered in bombings in Iraq yesterday appeared as a brief item 20 minutes into the newscast. Are deaths in Iraq no longer even newsworthy?

Joshua

From an article at Ynet about the shooting: "Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the gunman [Alaa Abu Dheim] was from Jabel Mukaber, a neighborhood in east Jerusalem, where Palestinian residents hold Israeli ID cards that give them freedom of movement in Israel...Abu Dheim's family set up a mourning tent Friday and hung green Hamas flags outside their home."

Peter Turner

Israel is losing the war - the propaganda war.It needs to go on the attack but I do not know how. It needs to counter the bias of the BBC and other media organisations. It needs to find a mechanism that will allow truth to . Remember, Israel is a very small country surrounded by people who desire and work for its destruction and there are many of them. I recall the cartoon showing the Israeli Soldier standing before the baby in its pram and contrasting this with the terrorist hiding behind the baby in its pram. To me this said it all.

Jeremy Wilkinson

"It is not unspeakable evil madam. As with the scorpion it is their nature." What does "their" refer to? Is this comment an example of actual (as opposed to fabricated) anti-Semitism. Perhaps Ms Phillips will protest it.

Harriet

"Israel must embrace the Palestinian people who also want change" er, it has and does. It has offered umpteen peace settlements in the past and is prepared to talk on peaceful terms. It cannot talk on terms that involve wiping it off the map, which is the Hamas position. I have a feeling, London Calling, not that you don't understand this but that you don't want to understand this. Would you like to speak to me if my view of you was that if I could get near enough to you I would blow your head off? I think you'd want me locked up. As for boblatchford and his drivel about "the massacres in Gaza". They are not massacres, they are targeted strikes on people who refuse to obey the normal rules of warfare by using civilian shields. According to your logic, bob, Israel should do nothing but let people take free potshots at it forever more. I'm glad some people are keeping tabs on Jeremy Bowen, I find it hard to watch the man without a sickbag to hand. Why am I forced to pay for this propaganda?

David Gray

I hope Israel bombs the living daylights out of Gaza.The only way to defeat terrorists is to kill them.

phil

Field last month I joined in the chorus of disapproval at your comments on sharia/beth din ,so now I must send you congratulations on many of your recent postings (not patronising)-I think we learn a lot from one another on this blog and most of the criticism is taken in good spirit -I must leave latchford and ann out of this exception as their venom is not fit for an exchange of views such as this -constructive remarks and different ideas enlighten us ,venom destroys us . I don't wish to even post a comment on last nights further descent into depravity, but it does serve as a warning where the path of hatred can lead us .I have no hatred for the Palestinians ,just sadness for the path that they have been led down so my best wishes to you ,who I hope is now my friend

Ravi

According to the law of proportional response so lauded by the UN and the empty headed idiots on the Left, Israel will now be required to select a Palestinian Maddrassa and attack it by firing 600 rounds indiscriminately and take the random casualty count. ie we can't necessarily stop until a proportional number of bullets have been discharged. That is the absurdity of "Proportional Response"

London Calling

Harriet, if you want a better view of the world, you better come up here and join me on the mountain top, the valley below of which you speak 'Gaza' has not been fully embraced by Isreal, instead it is a ghetto, improve the ghetto in real terms by allowing the Palestinians basic human rights, like clean water,food,electricity and medical supplies as this is what I meant by change, not pieces of paper that promise change. For your information I understand fully the threat of having someone blow themselves up near me, when I missed the train with my son on route to Great Ormond Street Hospital in London, on July 7th 2005, we Londoners of all races including Muslim have lived with the fear ever since of it happening again , and no doubt given the chance it will, do you really think I lack understanding? or are you attempting to belittle me so that my opinion is reduced to 0. Do not group people like me and Bob and anyone else you think is wrong because we do not agree with you, after all this is the 'Spectator' is it not? or as like the 'Shoah' does it also have a second meaning, the 'Conservator' in which case I think you should reveal all and let us spectators enlighten your biased point of view. With respect, you have much to learn my friend.

BWilliamson

I watched the BBC News account during which Jeremy Bowen compared this atrocity with a US High School shooting. Nice one BBC. Two birds with one stone in their racist and rabid anti US/Israel, warped minds. Placing the slaughter on a par with Columbine et al is ridiculous and such a travesty of deception as to be almost unbelievable. Do US high schools all have a homicidal neighbour dedicated to their destruction? Next was the use of 'retaliation', a word we never hear when describing Israeli response to the ludicrous rocket campaign against Sderot. Anyone descibing Hamas as 'poor oppressed Palestinians' should take note of the billions of our and US money pumped into the place. They should take note of Hamas's declared objective, not a Palestinian homeland shared with Jews but the total extermination of Israel and it's inhabitants. We've heard this old story before and Auschwitz is it's memorial.

Adam B.

London Calling, your last posting is completely incomprehensible. However, it may be of interest to you that Gaza and the "Palestinians" have received more aid in the last few years than the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, (where people are much much poorer and in some cases actually starving, unlike Gaza). If sanitation is a problem, it is not because of a lack of money or resources; it is due to a lack of will. Ask yourself where all this aid has gone. Funny that Hamas has the resources to produce an unlimited number of rockets, money to buy Kalashnikov rifles etc. but can't dig sewers. Personally, I think it's crazy that Israel continues to supply Hamas, a genocidal, racist terrorist organization hellbent on its destruction, with electricity.

phil

*London calling*before I respond may I say that your name(hopefully not on purpose )evokes terrible memories for our more mature bloggers -substitute Germany for London and we have lord haw haw,s, calling sign -not the best idea on a blog like this -maybe you will give us notice of a change and be received in a less angry way -anyhow !!you suggest the Palestinians want change ,it would be very welcome from those of us who really want to see a just solution for both peoples -I get the impression that you do too-Hamas patently do not and the poor souls who live in Gaza probably have never met a Jew or an Israeli -its no wonder that hate thrives in that beleaguered place -they are fed night and day with hatred,what chance do you think they have of seeing reason or contemplating peace-Israel sends water, electricity ,medical supplies to Gaza ,where does it go? the *SUGAR*becomes a propellant,flour ,what do you think-?make it plain where do you think the ability to fire rockets comes from .Israel even takes the injured Palestinians to its own hospitals etc etc -you will have seen what they do to Israeli soldiers . We need sensible people from all sides to come together and push for peace and justice and I read a spark of that in your blogs ,so please check your facts ask questions on this blog if you like but please leave mr latchford out of this equation as I leave out ann -venom will not win us anything -I JUST WISH THEY WOULD GO AWAY AND LEAVE THOSE STILL WITH REASON AND COMPASSION TO MOVE THINGS ALONG

Harriet

“I understand fully the threat of having someone blow themselves up near me, when I missed the train with my son on route to Great Ormond Street Hospital… do you really think I lack understanding?” What does this mean?

I was on the tube with my daughter on 7/7 and stuck in Hampstead (one of London’s deepest stations) when the terrorists you pine for so much let their bombs off. So what?

Your logic is you want yourself and your child protected from Islamic terror. Nothing wrong with that, but why does this logic not extend to Israelis?

As for Palestinian ‘human rights’ in Gaza, the only people denying them those are Hamas. It was made quite clear in Channel 4’s recent flawed documentary (the pictures told far more than the words) 'Inside Hamas' where law and order involved pulling out truncheons and beating fellow Palestinians senseless. Of course, although they got even more angry when they saw the camera and realised the contempt with which they treat their own people was going to be broadcast round the world.

I'd suggest that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza amounted to more than “pieces of paper that promise change” – and what’s their reward? We’ll kill you now you’re within better range.

If what you mean by ‘reveal all’ is reveal your Jewish/Israeli bias, for the record I am a North London Christian with no Jewish connections whatsoever.

However, I’ve read the Hamas charter and I know what that means and I’ve read The Koran and I know what that means. And when I read things like: “Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate” I know what that means too.

London Calling

Harriet 'Quote' 'I was on the tube with my daughter on 7/7 and stuck in Hampstead (one of London’s deepest stations) when the terrorists you pine for so much let their bombs off. So what? Your logic is you want yourself and your child protected from Islamic terror. Nothing wrong with that, but why does this logic not extend to Israelis?'Unquote' My logic,Harriet, was to express that I was not detached from the meaning of 'Fear' by my experience on 7/7 and neither do I pine for the Islamic terrorists who created this fear. I included 'Londoners' in the equation also, so I don't know why you perceive that I was thinking of 'my son or myself' and your 'so What?' attitude just about sums up your lack of compassion and spiritual growth as a Christian North Londoner. Luke 19, '41-44' And when he got near and saw the town, he was overcome with weeping for it, 42 Saying, If you, even you, had knowledge today, of the things which give peace! but you are not able to see them. 43 For the time will come when your attackers will put a wall round you, and come all round you and keep you in on every side, 44 And will make you level with the earth, and your children with you; and there will not be one stone resting on another in you, because you did not see that it was your day of mercy.

robert

The BBC, AFP, Reuters and the like donīt use the word "terrorism" because the attach took place in East (occupied) Jerusalem.

david

No point campaigning for the bbc to be fair....lets campaign to have it stand on its own two feet. Scrap the license fee.

Trevor

May I endorse London Calling's plea for peace when he quotes Luke: "Saying, If you, even you, had knowledge today, of the things which give peace! but you are not able to see them." Let us hope Hamas take this plea to heart and see that if they re-write their charter and discard the parts that say Israel has no right to exist there can be peace.

PHIL

london -I showed you respect by writing to you a polite and i think reasonable blog -you have not reciprocated that respect which i find sad -you write to Harriet with a quote from Luke with passages that are completely beyond my comprehension -.so perhaps you will benefit us all by translating the passages into what we all can understand-or at least what you mean .it seems someone is to be a victim -who is that?

Ann

London Calling (what an appropriate name) - you have no clue about the Middle East. The persecuted are the Jews of Israel. Anyone who thinks that Hamas is the persecuted is beneath contempt.

alcibiades

The BBC, AFP, Reuters and the like donīt use the word "terrorism" because the attach took place in East (occupied) Jerusalem.

Just showing your ignorance there, Robert. It's nowhere near East Jerusalem