The war against the Jews (8)

Stray Dingo

After the slaughter, sickening jubilation - What does the MSM have to say about the public expression of joy shown in Gaza after the latest TARGETED slaughter of innocent life - How do the left leaning elites rationalize these types of actions? We Israel launches retaliatory attacks we don't see the streets fill with Israelis celebrating the latest Palestinians deaths do we?

Dee Ranged

Glick also makes the following comment in an article in the World Jewish Review:- http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice left many Israelis and supporters of Israel scratching their heads in disbelief this week. Rice arrived in Israel in a week marked by Fatah-incited violence against Israel and Israelis both in Judea and Samaria and within sovereign Israel. On Monday a well organized group of hundreds of Arab thugs in Jerusalem threw rocks at Jewish motorists. A dozen hoodlums nearly lynched two municipal inspectors when, after blocking traffic on Salah al-Din Street with burning tires, they stoned the inspectors' vehicle and began shattering their windshield with a metal pipe. The two escaped by the skin of their teeth. Outside Hebron, an Israeli was attacked by yet another mob and escaped alive only by opening fire at his assailants. In another incident, Fatah forces murdered one Palestinian and seriously wounded an Israeli outside of Hebron. The US-financed group claimed that its operatives lured the Israeli to the scene. In Ramallah and Hebron, thousands of Fatah members rallied in support of Hamas and its missile offensive against the Western Negev. Israeli Arabs too escalated their verbal and physical assaults on Israel and Israeli Jews in a series of demonstrations which culminated so far in a mass demonstration in support of Hamas which took place on Tuesday evening in Umm el Fahm. In Judea and Samaria, Fatah leader and Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas referred to the IDF's operations in Gaza as an attempted "holocaust." He praised terrorists, suspended negotiations with Israel and reiterated his refusal to recognize Israel. His deputies and associates echoed his incendiary remarks and also spoke in support of armed attacks against US forces in Iraq. Then there is Egypt. Last Monday, two days before Hamas escalated its missile offensive against southern Israel, Egypt released 21 Hamas terrorists from custody in al-Arish. Twelve of the men were reportedly detained while carrying weapons and attempting to cross into Israel to conduct terror attacks. They were escorted to Gaza by scores of Egyptian security officials and handed over to Hamas.

Huw Thornton

Melanie - you say that "....the Arabs have made it crystal clear that the real focus of their murderous hatred is Judaism itself. " Do you mean all Arabs, or some of them? Do you maintain that this kind of feeling is intrinsic to someone with an Arab identity?

Michael B

The desiderata of discontent and malcontent is an infinity, albeit a clone-like and particularly banal infinity; moral inversions of a primary order are at work here. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind; sow the whirlwind, reap the abyss.

ana escaleira

Islam doesnt advocate violence,murdering, terrorism. Palestinians have been suffering. Nobody cant deny this.But dont blame Arabs or Muslims in general. And about the last 108 deaths? children, one=3 weeks age it is a massacre, too. On the other hand, Jews also are suffering due to its authorities policies.I dont believe Judaism advocates violence too Inshallah,all this nonsense bloody violence will stop. read the Quran.

Dee Ranged

ana escaleira - What planet are you on?

Ravi

ann escaleira And about the last 108 deaths? children, one=3 weeks age it is a massacre, too. . Over ten years of blogging and arguing about the ME situation I KNOW that "your side" has no understanding of the definition of words. Regrettable as it is the death toll in Gaza is NOT a massacre. The slaughter of 8 Yeshiva students and maiming of over 30 others IS a massacre. Go read a dictionary rather than the Koran (as you urge people to do).

alan stoddart

The Jewish students were themselves to blame for the attack because they belonged to a group that was opposed to compromises with Hamas, said Jeremy Bowen this morning on 'Today'. He failed completely to tell us anything about the victims or indeed the attack and merely went straight into his views on the politics of the matter. Needless to say I have just heard the BBC broadcast the views of the killers family. BBC News says this attack can be seen as a revenge attack for the killing of 120 Palestinians recently....implying all are civilians deliberately killed by Israel presumably.

The British Army comes in for some stick today from Victoria Derbyshire on 5 Live...she caves completely before a highly politicised Muslim caller with a well worn script...she failed to challenge any of his assertions and she actually called British troops murderers...tho' 'by accident' she quickly added. She failed to ask if he was Hizb ut Tahrir, MCB or MPACUK...but a previous white,female caller with non-BBC views on immigration was immediately asked how she voted...Derbyshire clearly thought BNP....as one BBC presenter said...'How worrying'

Louise

I'm a regular on a certain internet discussion forum, where left-wingers of the BBC/Guardianista type vilify Israel (and taunt its supporters on the forum) on a daily basis. Some of them go out of their way to cut and paste extracts from the most outrageous spoutings of "non-Jewish Jews" such as Chomsky regarding Israel and Zionism, just to "prove" that anti-Israel, anti-Zionist sentiment is alive and well and actually flourishing in "mainstream" Jewish opinion. They attempt to intimidate Israel's supporters by personal insults. They inevitably bray (when challenged) that they are not in the least antisemitic and castigate anyone who suggests they might be. Yet they focus exclusively on Israel, seldom or never on oppressive regimes round the world, and manage somehow to justify ("well, it's part of their culture, you can't expect them to change it") or turn a blind eye to such abominations as the persecution of women by regimes such as Iran's or the Taliban. Typically, last night's massacre of yeshiva students has gone unremarked. However, had the victims been Palestinians and the gunman a Jew ...

Alex

Hatred of Israel, however stupid, unjustifiable or counter-productive, is not racial hatred. It is typical fuzzy Spectator logic to equivocate (albeit rather hysterical) criticism of a state and its government to racial hatred.

Mladen Andrijasevic

Video: Hamas calls upon all Gaza children to gather in order to form a human shield. http://ws.collactive.com/points/point?id=Yck0jxgG08pw

David Sternlight

There is only one American answer to the murders in Jerulasem. We must move our embassy there at once. Others will soon follow.

osama

Hamas and Co are just following orders:

“We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. . . . We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.”

"Continue to press on soldiers of freedom! We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem or land!” Arafat

Frank Pulley

Ask not for whom the bell tolls ...

N. Simon

The BBC certainly haven't shown the gleeful Palestinian displays of handing out sweets, car horns tooting, firing rounds of bullets into the air, and the general celebrations. These are people who claim to be starving, but havew plenty of food, they say they have no fuel, even though there's a lot of new cars being driven around, they say they have no money, but have enough to buy bullets and rocket making equipment. They get more money per head than any unemployed person over here.

SDM

Good old "Mad Mel" frothing at the mouth again. I wonder why she bothers. The public aren't stupid, you know. They can interpret the contrast in casualty figures from the conflict to work out which side is the more brutal and inhuman. Gaza raid: 100 killed Jerusalem attack: 8 killed See, its easy!

PHIL

SDM I absolutely agree with you -the public arn,t stupid -they will see through you immediately

Nick Kaplan

SDM; I wonder if you are aware of the difference between collateral and murder? The Jewish students were murdered, this was celebrated by thousands of Palestinians, showing an utter contempt for human life. In addition those who fire rockets into Israel fire them indiscriminately at innocent civilians with the aim of killing them, there have been approximately 3700 such rockets in the 2 years since the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, those that are successful are murder those that are not are attempted murder, the deaths caused are celebrated. The Israelis on the other hand do not intend to kill innocent civilians, such casualties are called collateral, they are bought about because those who fire the rockets and target the Jews hide themselves among the Palestinian population as these people care not who they sacrifice for their political ends. In a world of perfect weapons which killed only who was intended the Israelis would target only those who were directly attacking and seeking to destroy them, the terrorists in Palestine would still target innocents. Thus adding up the number of deaths is far from sufficient for deciding who is responsible and who should be condemned.

epaminondas

I see a lot of comment here about separating hatred of Israel from hatred of the jews. As the writings of experts such as Matthias Kuntzel, Andrew Bostom and too many others to come CLOSE to fitting here make clear beyond any doubt, jewish people around the world are not hated, or castigated because of what Israel does. Israel is hated SPECIFICALLY because it is full of jews. Just go to the head of the interprers of the Quran today, Mr. Tantawi and his 700 page explanation of quranic contempt for all things jewish. Those who blame Israel for problems with HAMAS are simply IGNORANT. They need to take a look at the HAMAS charter Article 11 and 13 then go back and read the whole thing There is ABSOLUTELY no chance of peace in the middle east today. It is a religious war of survival of the peoples. By the choice of HAMAS (the muslim brotherhood), either they will all be dead, or jihad will conquer the waqf. "Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors" Arrogant ethnocentric westerners who don't wish to take these men as serious in their charter, and do them that respect are quite simply, delusional fools. That is the objective reality today. When the peoples of palestine are ready to follow ideas OTHER than HAMAS, this will be a political situation amenable to negotiations, until then this is a religious war BY THEIR CHOICE

John M.

SDM - Let's be charitable and assume you're a fool rather than mendacious. So I'll spell it out. To target Palestinian militants who fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities is legitimate self-defence by Israel. That those militants choose to use Palestinian civilians as human shields for their murderous activities is in itself a war crime. They bear the responsibility for any civilian deaths caused inadvertently when Israel responds. The laws of war allow such action. Half or more of the Palestinian dead are reported to be militants, by the way. On the other hand, targeting and slaughtering students is terrorism, pure and simple.

Gary

Hitler said " you will see how the values of the world can be turned upside down simply by attacking Jews".

YA

..settlers movement is religious, nationalist, fascist organization, - Jewish Hamas if you wish. However, under no circumstances leaders of this (far right) movement would consider mass murder of unarmed Arab students, practically children, as something that might serve their cause. Because by any human standards, this is just crime, inhumanity and idiotism. But Hamas with all seriousness tries to represent this atrocity as icon of "resistance", and "natural response". Well, natural.. for whom? It looks like, not only Israeli science, technology and healthcare is better, even Jewish fascists are immeasurably better than Arab fascists. With arrival of pro-terrorist brigade, this site starts resembling CIF. Which means more polemics on 2+2=4 type questions, and less easy to read. Sad; but as in any home, there are good thigs, and there is garbage..

Adam M.

As apoint of information, I would like to ask: Are there many Scots in the Scotland Palestine Solidarity Committee? Or are the bulk of the members Asians in kilts?

Beth Dittman

SDM--the only way the Israelis can avoid hitting civilian targets (since the terrorists deliberately fire upon Israel from behind the civilian population) is to not fire back at all. Aren't they entitled to self-defense? Or should they just allow themselves to be targeted and never fight back?

If Israelis laid down all their weapons and declared peace, they would all be massacred. They are literally a tiny country surrounded by millions who are committed to wiping them from the face of the earth.

If however, the Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians, Lebanese, etc. would lay down all their weapons and declare peace, there would actually BE peace.

That's why the peace process doesn't work. One side is totally committed to annihilating the Israelis, but somehow they can claim they are the "victims." As a U.S. citizen, I'm bothered by the fact that we send so much aid to Palestinians. They receive SO MUCH AID from everybody, but use the money for more weaponry, and not for the benefit of their citizens. In fact, they enjoy being the
"victims" because everybody feels so sorry for them and sends them even MORE money. And they somehow have most of the press wrapped around their fingers. I do feel sorry for the children...but the grownups hate the Israelis more than they love their own children.

NotaSheep

And yet Jacqui Smith MP has ‘personally directed’that the deputy leader of Israel’s centre-right Likud party, Moshe Feiglin be banned from these shores. Apparently, it's OK for Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Ibrahim Mousawi, to come to the UK and spout hate but not for an Israeli politician. It can't be anything to do with the need, that many of our delightful Labour Government feel, to curry favour with the often large Muslim populations that live in their constituencies.

D.Smith

If the terrorist gunman's attack is seen as part of an escalating strategy(Hamas,Hezbollah etc) designed to force Israel to react with military force then you must ask who gains?Not Israel which will suffer even more vilification from a hostile world for daring to defend itself.I would look no further than Iran which can use the situation to further it's ambition to control the resources of the Middle East and eliminate Western influence.Iran will not dare to directly confront Israel but uses the Palastinians as proxies and sadly can rely on the anti Israel bias of the BBC etc etc to further it's ambitions.All very dangerous to world peace.

Manuel

Alan Stoddard's comments about Victoria Derbyshire's Friday 5 Live episode is so very typical of the woman. She is shown daily to be out of her depth, possibly due to lack of research and knowledge of the daily subjects on her programme. No excuse for either. When it comes to the Middle East & Israel in particular, she is dangerously lost, her only contribution usually being that of a bystander and or reducing her comments to what one would not even expect from a 4th form debater. She is just not up to the job of hosting a pseudo-political programme. The BBC will no doubt move her to the To-Day prog on Radio 4. The hate spewing from the MPACUK site is truly horrendous, a blog full of ignorant, hate filled rewriters of history and that is being polite.

BJ

Well is anyone surprised about the latest developments? I commented last week about the futile cycle of attack and revenge (and no there is still no difference between murder and "collaterals"!). There has to be a comprehensive ceasefire before any progress towards meaningful negotiations. Also some people have been claiming that East Jerusalem is not part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. This is of course rubbish as was confirmed unanimously by the International Court of Justice, the highest judicial body in the world, when it ruled on the illegality of the Segregation Wall.

Rob

Beth Dittman: == They receive SO MUCH AID from everybody, but use the money for more weaponry, and not for the benefit of their citizens. In fact, they enjoy being the "victims" because everybody feels so sorry for them and sends them even MORE money. And they somehow have most of the press wrapped around their fingers== This is the Israelis you're talking about, right? The biggest beneficiaries of US aid and the nation that spends more per head on weaponry than any other nation in history, most of it funded by that aid. And Louise: == had the victims been Palestinians and the gunman a Jew == Then like Baruch Goldstein he would have been ignored by the MSM, lionised as a hero by the ultra-Orthodox nutters such as this week's victims, and toally forgotten by people like you, or else you wouldn't even have asked the question. And Israel is the country where senior members of the Knesset like Netanyahu openly celebrate the anniversary of murderous terrorist bombings, though only of course ones like the King David Hotel atrocity that killed non-Jews and led to independence for Israel rather than for Palestine. Yes, the yeshiva shooting was a tragedy, but don't kid yourself that it was somehow different from what Jewish terrorists have been doing for more than half a century.

Mike

Rubbish Melanie. It's not a war against the Jews, it's a war against the made Zionist dream of a 'Greater Israel'. Only to-day do we learn that approval has been given for 330 new units in an illegal settlement on the West Bank. Israel lost the world's 'sympathy vote' decades ago. Zionism is the real enemy of the Jews, as so many now realise.

PHIL

rob you jump from blog to blog spewing hatred and total nonsense -what is your agenda -i think we can guess -if you got any of your facts right we may be impressed but not with this disgusting stuff - i will pose you one question from your blog -why do you thing the Israelis have to spend so much of their income on arms -?because they want to? you must be crazy -if you cant work it out i will tell you -because they are and have been attacked for 60 years without a chance of peace ,and people like you will ensure that continues -but please keep writing here -its good to know ones enemies intentions .

Max Kaye

Mike says: "Zionism is the real enemy of the Jews"

Yes dear. And black is white, up is down and day is night.

Rob

Phil - happy to see that you rubbish my incoreect facts without being ablke to "correct" one. Did Baruch Goldstein not machinegun the worshippers in a mosque? Did Netanyahu and his pals not ceebrate the King David Hotel terrorist bombing? (So much for "Israelis don't celebrate civilian deaths.) And for the past 60 years Israel has used its massive arsenal to invade its neighbours and kill civilians. Sweet. If it only wants it for defence why does it have nuclear weapons (totally uninspected and illegal, of course: only being held to the same standard as other nations never seems to work when all the other nations are behaving better, does it?) "People like you will ensure it continues". Well, at least you have the honesty to accept that I don't want to see Israel destroyed, which sadly is what you and your cronies seem to be trying to achieve.

PHIL

Max I think most critics dont even know what zionism is -so let them see an extract from wikipedia -sadly the likes of rob and his pals dont really want to know but here goes------ This has primarily focused on the creation of a homeland for the Jewish People in the Promised Land, and (having achieved this goal) continues as support for the modern state of Israel.[1]--------------it is not to steal land and opress others !!! so maybe you detractors will read wikipedia and open your eyes and ears

PHIL

Rob try reading my blog on----*Could I trouble you to move so I can attack, please*-it may solve your problem with Baruch Goldstein-and you seem to have deliberately misread my remark *"People like you will ensure it continues* for definition I am referring to you -I also see you are an expert on nuclear weapons and have advanced information for us -perhaps you would like to share your scource .I WILL NOT BOTHER TO RESPOND TO YOUR *STATEMENT OF FACTS* about Israelis attacks they are just the same nonsense as before-and just to let you know I don't have cronies ,just some intelligent ,compassionate friends -maybe you should try it -hatred will just consume you -be good

Andy Gill

ROb, you ask, Did Baruch Goldstein not machinegun the worshippers in a mosque? es he did. And the act was condemned by the Israeli government, the Israeli media and the Israeli public. The killing of the Jewish students on the other hand was praised by Hamas as a 'heroic act', and celebrated in the streets of Gaza. That is the difference between Israel and Gaza. That is the the difference between a democratic Jewish society with a sense of decency, and a morally bankrupt mob led by fanatical Islamists.

Rob

== Rob try reading my blog on----*Could I trouble you to move so I can attack, please*-it may solve your problem with Baruch Goldstein == I've responded over there, wondering why when people post comments explicitly praising BG and calling him heroic it attracts no comment from you or your fellow-travellers hereabouts. =and you seem to have deliberately misread my remark *"People like you will ensure it continues* == No Phil: if you think I want the slaughter of Israelis to continue then you must think I want Israel to continue, as if it was destroyed where would those Israelis come from? I do, however, think that it's bigoted attitudes such as Mel's and your own that pose the biggest threat to peace in the region and to Israel's long-term survival. Hence my remark. == I also see you are an expert on nuclear weapons == Am I to take that strange remark as implying that you deny the existence of Israeli nuclear weapons? Or that you imagine that in some strange way unseen by the rest of the world Israel has offered then for inspection and verification? Where does the need for expertise come in? And where is the "nonsense" in my statement that Israel has used its arsenal to invade its neighbours? Do you reckon it never invaded anyone and is still inside its 1967 borders? Or perhaps that it fought its way into Jordan, Egypt, Syria nd Lebanon armed only with water pistols? And the "nonsense" in Israel's use of its arsenal to kill civilians? Look at the news any day of the week and you can see it, still happening now. Your typing in capital letters doesn't make inconvenient facts go away, it just makes you look like a historical revisionist, and a shouty one at that.

Si, N

Hey Andy Gill, have you looked at the statistics for the number of Palestinian children that die from gunshot wounds to head and chest as a result of IDF targeting - I don-t suppose you have nor would you be inclined to check it out - but the facts make shocking reading and certainly present a challenge to your notion of 'a society with a sense of decency'.

PHIL

Well rob I certainly got your knickers in a twist -what are you on ?it seems obvious you don't want Israel to continue so there is not much point in me trying to educate you ,or is your incoherent phrasing not meant to give me that view ?I must tell you that I am not a party to Israel's secrets and I am sure neither are you -so nuclear issues will have to be off the list .Bigot is a new one for me I have never met anyone ,Christian,Jewish , or Muslim and I have friends amongst all ,who think that :-you really are a good joker,so I will assume that's one of your better ones . As for killing civilians that is really beneath contempt .even you cant think that -My friends ask why I bother replying to people with views like yourself ,but we cant let you keep telling such twisted untruths without a response -fortunately as you may have guessed from some of my replies you afford me a certain amount of amusement on a cold and windy day ,and I do also enjoy defending Melanie's honour -She is a real hero -well she brings the likes of you and London out of the woodwork doesn't she

Adam B.

Rob, the problem with your analogy is that it lacks any perspective. The reality is that there is one Baruch Goldstein for a hundred Palestinian suicide bombers/ gunmen/ knife wielding terrorists. When people always bring up Baruch Goldstein, what they're really trying to do is present both sides as the same (although you clearly favour the Arab side). This is moronic, and fails to look at any complexities. There is no incitement on Israeli TV or newspapers, unlike outright pleas to murder on Palestinian TV and newspapers. Mainstream politicians in the islamic world openly declare their intent to commit genocide against the Jews (Ahmadinejad, a head of state, Nasrallah, head of Hizbollah, and the whole of Hamas with whom you obviously have such sympathy). And bringing up the King David Hotel, jeez that's desperate - it only happened 60 years ago (and incidentally was a military HQ). Cant you get more topical? Maybe you can find something you don't like about the Jews 500 years ago, so you can bring that up as well.

Adam B.

Si, N, EVERY Israeli murdered by a terrorist was deliberately targeted. And as for your "statistics", what is your source? We can all make up statistics, and then read what we want into them. Go on, tell us.

Rob

Phil - "As for killing civilians that is really beneath contempt .even you cant think that". O...K.... so Israel has never killed any civilians, and every dead Palestinian and Lebanese was a wicked terrorist, even the babies. I hate to break it to you Phil, but the IDF _admits_ to causing civilian casualties, in the same way that its nuclear programme hasn't been secret since Mordecai Vanunu let the cat out of the bag. Just because you're in denial and never watch the news (is there a single day with no civilians killed by Israel?) doesn't mean the rest of us have to buy into your twisted fantasy. Oh, and for what it's worth I genuinely hope Israel does continue, having been a supporter of a two-state solution for more years than I can remember. You see, Phil, I happen to think the UN is worth bothering with: and the UN say that Israel has the right to exist just the same as any other country. Doesn't matter whether it was built on an empty desert or a pile of bodies: it's a fact and it's there to stay, legally. Now I can hardly expect Israel to abide by UN resolutions and convenient forget the one that established Israel's legitimacy. Not of course that Israel ever does abide by UN resolutions. "Defending Mel's honour": well, if you can find it, you defend it, son. I was beginning to think you were simply a pseudonym for the lady herself ("Phil"...hmm), but I think she writes better than you (or me of course) so I guess you're for real. And I assure you, Phil, your opinions cause me just as much amusement as mine seem to cause you. Your denial that Israel causes civilian casualties should keep the blogosphere rolling on its collective floor for weeks.

Mike

FOR ROB. Keep plugging away old son, if you can spare the time. I think you will find that all the Melanie supporters are clones of the real thing; constantly in denial, and believers in 'Israel Right or Wrong'. But that is what you find when trying to deal with a Zionist. You can always tell them, you can tell them nothing! They are persuaded by bad history and pseudo-biblical 'facts'. They learn it in the cradle.

PHIL

mike have you ever met a zionist or even a jew (not the same thing necessarily)-did you ever have a rational discussion with one ?one where they could answer. i think not -your on the wrong site here ,try the guardian or the independent there is a lot more rabid hatred of Israel there-here we try to discuss solutions ,and if your surname begins with H try answering your emails -you will know what i mean if you are that man

Si, N

Adam B, I'm kind of reluctant to enter into this little game with you - I mean if you were serious about educating yourself about Israeli misdemeanours you could quite easily have googled 'Palestinian children + head shot wounds' - there is a preponderance of reporting - though not a great deal in the mainstream - not even in the Guardian - which for some peculiar reason many on this board consider to be 'Israel haters' - though they do sometimes get it right and are able to put a name to the multitudes of innocent Palestinians that are killed in this infernal conflict. I singled out the Palestinians just then because most of the reporting of their deaths simple has them down as militants/terrorists or civilians - that is, they remain nameless. Nevertheless, in the vain hope that you might learn something and not simply rubbish the sources that I cite with mantra-like noises about anti-semitism, I've included a list of sources for you to look at - this is just a springboard for you to do some research of your own. One last thing - do make a point of comparing and contrasting the left and right columns on the 'remember these children' site - it really does make stark and depressing reading. Not for one moment am I suggesting that the numbers should be more balanced. Rather, I wished that there were fewer dying all round. http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=13 -- http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2006.html -- http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/055/2004 -- http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9378.shtml -- http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=13 -- http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=28 -- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0bdbA2Ka3Bo -- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dUI_Ft3ajME -- http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GRsNhTQ9KEA -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/03/israelandthepalestinians.usa1 -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/20/israel

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

As to UN resolutions, Rob, it is Isarel that is abiding by Security Council Resoultion 242. Those who are defying 242 are those, such as Jimmy Carter, Mahmoud Abbas, Prince Bandar, who demand that Israel relinquish every square cm. of land captured in the 1967 war, or that Israel withdraw from ANY land before there is a comprehensive peace treaty with internationally recognized borders and unconditional recognition, and unconditional cessation of hostilities. Your distortions about civilian casualties have been addressed many times, and is not worth re-addressing.

Ben-Tsiyon

This 'Mike' feller's a fine one to spout about "bad history and pseudo-biblical 'facts'", but then he clearly considers himself an authority on Jewish history, which is what he's really attacking, under the usual disguise of an 'anti-Zionist'. Unlike Arabs and other peoples, it is, of course, totally reprehensible for Jews to want to exercise and defend their right to national liberation and self-determination in the land of their forefathers. The late Dr Martin Luther King said that one should make no mistake, when people speak against "the Zionists" they really mean "the Jews". That's something that this Zionist did not "learn..in the cradle", but the hard way, beginning with school days long ago and continuing to the present day.

PHIL

Si n-i actually did go to one of your sites amnesty actually and the site asked the IDF to investigate 2 children who it appears may have been shot-sadly they were of course dead ,but it hasnt been proved how -shots to the head could well have come from you know who after death -i have no idea but I mourn their loss just the same as you -but we must make it clear it was not an accusation merely a request for further and better particulars -it is very easy to accuse the IDF and you will know that when they are guilty they are punished -no army is perfect especially frightened teenagers who are being shot at -so far i have not heard of one from the other side of the fence being punished -strange? please tell me also where are the web sites that target Palestinian atrocities ?

Mike

FOR PHIL: Perhaps I should explain that until about two or three months ago I was a regular visitor and contributor to Melanie's blogs. Since I've no wish to become embroiled again in the ceaseless arguments that Melanie so adroitly provokes(she has a right to make a living just like everyone else), I would merely like to say that I support the views expressed by the Independant Jewish Voice (http://www.ijv.org.uk/) and other Jewish voices especially those within Israel and elsewhere.

PHIL

Mike its good to hear you are looking for a peaceful settlement -so am i -sadly that organisation is pretty well one sided isnt it? mainly jewish people hoping the Palestinians will stop the terrorism . its a noble position to take and i hope it will work but i,m not holding my breath .meanwhile back on the ramparts i will continue to put what you might think is the other side of the argument .The Israelis are not faltless I know ,but how would you be after 60 years of incessant war -hardly a breeding ground for soppy gentle people-and that is what came out of the concentration camps -a people who wished Israel to be a light unto nations -Sorry Mike but they need some help -and please believe that I have better things to do than keep replying to the likes of rob and london -if you are the man from EVERTON good luck to you

Adam B.

Si, N, I don't want to play any "little game" with you either, I don't consider the deliberate murder of Jews by Palestinian terrorists to be a "game". Interesting that you accuse me of shouting "anti-semitism" when I never said any such thing - this shows a lot about you, and your motivation. As Phil points out, the sites you have provided provide no "proof" at all and if you would convict someone in a court of law on the basis you provide, by, I might add, highly partisan groups who have a long history of trying to undermine the Jewish State, then I would say that you would perpetarte a terrible miscarriage of justice. Melanie has also pointed out that Palestinian civilians are deliberately placed in harm's way by the Hamas leadership, who openly call on people to go to the dwelling of a terrorist to form a human shield aroung that dwelling. It is a cynical ploy, and you buy into it wholesale. Can't you see that there is a moral difference between deliberately targeting civilians, (Hizbollah and Hamas),celebrating their deaths, (Hizbollah and Hamas) and inadvertantly (and tragically) killing civilians in a military operation aimed at preventing rocket attacks on the civilian population of your towns and villages? If you want fewer deaths "all round" perhaps if these rocket attacks stopped, there would be no Israeli operations into Gaza, and therefore no civilians hurt in the first place. Why must we accept the status quo that Hamas MUST fire rockets into Israel, like they can't help themselves?

Rob

Phil - "where are the web sites that target Palestinian atrocities?" Well, you could atart with Amnesty International. Oh wait, that doesn't fit your preconception that they're all wicked antisemites. best ignore it then.

Si, N

Adam B, you really are a tiresome individual. You deliberately misconstrue what I say and attempt to attribute to me motivations that are outside of my interests. Did you actually review the material that I posted? If you did, and you lay claim to even a modicum of intelligence, how can you still spout such garbled nonsense. The point that I was making was concerned with the criminal actions of the IDF - I mean, you asked for stats and I gave you them and as I predicted you then attempted to rubbish them with claims that all organisations that present any findings that question the actions of the Israeli government and its policies are seeking to 'undermine the Jewish State' - or in other words, they are anti-semitic. You say: '(a)s Phil points out, the sites you have provided provide no "proof"', as though Phil was some kind of ultimate and impartial arbiter. The fact is that the links that I posted provide a wealth of evidence that IDF soldiers are regularly seen to act in a criminal manner - I mean, go ahead and dismiss it as the produce of 'highly partisan groups' if you must. Nevertheless, if the youtube footage of IDF soldiers breaking the arms of Palestinian children doesn't alarm you, then I say that there must be something very wrong with your moral radar. Laughably, you cite 'Melanie' as a reliable source on this subject - clearly partisanship is fine when it pertains to your cause. And by the way, when you speak of courts of law, please remember that Israel is in contravention of several articles of International law every minute of every day. If you don't believe me, do some of your own research. Unfortunately for you that will mean stepping outside of the comfort zone of your oracles, Phil and Phillips, so I'll not hold my breath.

PHIL

rob will you please stop putting words into my mouth -i have in no posting mentioned anti semitism -its your side of the argument that does this incessantly-it comes from people with their thumb in their mouth crying its not fair -now stop it will you -i see on a previous blog (re BBC)you said something that made me think you had turned over a new leaf -am i wrong ?

Adam B.

Si, N, I seem to have upset you. I would point out that it is you who is being abusive and aggressive, not me, when you say I’m “tiresome” because I don’t agree with your conclusions from the information you sent me. It is you who keeps mentioning anti-semitism, not me. And it is you who calls into question the intelligence of anyone who doesn’t agree with you. Must be nice to be so smug all the time. I did indeed review the materials you sent, including that from “electronic intifada”, a website which openly supports the violence of the terror intifada against Jewish people. Excuse me for thinking that this may be “partisan”. In mentioning Phil, which really seemed to upset you for some bizarre reason, I was merely agreeing with him, (shock, horror!) and your assertion that I think Phil is an independent arbiter is absurd. I think Melanie is a very reliable source on the subject, more than “electronic intifada”, the BBC, the Guardian, or the other received wisdoms of our age. It is you who is not thinking for yourself. I have repeatedly made the point that ALL Israeli victims of terror are deliberately targeted – this doesn’t seem to alarm YOU or your moral radar. If anyone is in a comfort zone, it is you. Do you ever really question yourself? By the way, Israel is NOT in contravention of any binding international law, and I defy you to state one. And before you say “Resolution 242” I suggest that you actually read it.

PHIL

SI N,I am truly flattered by yourlinking of me to Melanie-I have never unfortunately met her , and by telling Adam that I am his oracle -he doesn't even know me .you obviously don't like to be shown where you are wrong as you don't refute what I told you about amnesty .I agree I am biased -so are you and so what ?if we weren't we wouldn't write would we?- the difference is I believe I try to investigate accusations against Israel from sources other than yours -because I wish to know that it behaves in an exemplary fashion .or at least as best as is possible in the circumstances .I make my feelings known too if things go wrong.I have said in another blog that Israels wish at its birth was to be* a light unto nations* but that it needs a little help to so do . As to Amnesty I believe they are made up of people like you who love what you perceive as the underdog (creditable)-but you get the wrong ones, and become blinded to the truth of the situation .Israel has been attacked for 60 years since its first inception -do you really think it should not defend itself ?-I have not seen anywhere that you have blamed the Palestinians for their crimes -if I do I will feel you may have found some balance ,then I could listen more carefully to your arguments and examples .Meanwhile whether either you or your co-critics believe it or not -I wish for justice and peace for both sides ,but I will continue to defend that beleagured nation against unfair accusations

Rob

Phil - apologies again. The preconception I referred to is real enough among many if not most of the commenters hereabouts, but now I check the "Genocide with jam on it" thread again I see you distance yourself from the kneejerk antisemitism-shouters such as Ann. Your remark about bias however does suggest that you view organisations such as Amnesty as having a systematic bias against Israel, and you have probably noticed that it is a rare supporter of Israel who does not equate "anti-Israel bias" with "antisemitism". If you are that rare bird I not only apologise, I salute you. While I have no specifics to cite, I'm pretty certain that Ms Phillips herself is less than squeaky-clean on that score. === Not sure what I said that made you think I'd "turned over a new leaf"? I like to think I've always been consistent, if occasionally mistaken. Neither you nor I, Phil, are simply bundles of stereotypes, though we both find it convenient shorthand to pretend the other is. People I admire can lose the plot sometimes; people I detest occasionally get it right. One of my main criticisms of columnists such as Melanie is their unwillingness to find any good in her opponents or any flaws in those she admires.

Marcus

The War Against the Jews; Not! More like the Jewish War Against the World.

PHIL

Rob thank you for your last post -apologies accepted -I have close friends who are definitely not anti Semitic who deplore Israels actions and I debate with them constantly -my conclusion is (as they are very decent human beings)that sadly they are uninformed by both the guardian, independent and of course the lovely newsnight -they are coming from the same place as SI N ie: they feel for what they perceive as the underdog,without asking the real question *why are they in this position*the answers and the history is too long for this column but the solution is a lot easier -let those Palestinians and their mentors come to a peace table and consider not their own pride but the future of the children of the M E .As for Amnesty you are right I ABSOLUTELY DISTRUST THEM you will remember what they said about Jenin -lies which caused incredible hate towards the Israelis -1000 massacred became 50 dead between both sides -the terribly unfortunate cases of the British boy who was shot and the American girl who died under an earth remover,both cases blamed entirely on the Israelis -I have checked for myself the causes of these awful incidents and it is not nearly so simple as the world has perceived .Most of the soldiers are kids operating in the dark,very frightened, returning fire to militants mingling with civilians and H R operatives who should not be there,and the driver in a vehicle high in the sky ,again in the dark who cannot see people at the foot of the vehicle being shot at, and terrified as any kid would be -Amnesty just accuse and give no credence to the problems that the Israelis operate under .I believe in human rights but they have been turned into an industry and a job provider and seem to have forgotten what they are there for -ok enough Rob ,I think its obvious we both care but all of us who write here need to see the other side of the problem .Just to close the *leaf*was your condemnation of the BBC, who with their constant output of biased views and actual lies perpetuate the wars like handlers at dog fights .their last great effort accusing the Israelis of bulldozing the assassins family home -do you wonder why I am so distrustful ,actually I think here at least we agree

Si, N

Adam B, you really haven't upset me - a few barbed comments on a blog pale into insignificance aside the woes of those involved in the conflict we are debating - do try to maintain some perspective. And what is this nonsense about me not 'thinking for myself' - it's not about what I or anybody else thinks - it's about rights and wrongs. You are hammering home the distinction between Palestinian violence and Israeli violence and are keen to impress that all Palestinian violence is aimed at innocents, whereas Israeli violence that claims the lives of innocents is just an unfortunate mistake or a consequence of 'terrorists' situating themselves amongst civilians. Well there is certainly a debate to be had about that last clause. I am aware of that, that is why I focussed on data that shows IDF soldiers deliberately target civilians. That doesn't seem to bother you at all. You asked for sources to back-up the claim. I offered up a selection of sources that detailed what I consider to be the misdemeanours of the IDF - you, as I predicted, dismissed them out of hand. You and Phil assume that I read the Guardian/Independent and watch Newsnight - I don't - as far I am concerned those media outlets operate within a propaganda framework and are not to be trusted. I select sources that to varying degrees present historical/documentary evidence - evidence that I invariably check for myself. So, I read much from both sides of the debate - Alan Dershowitz, Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, Norman Finkelstein, Melanie Phillips, Michael Neumann and Noam Chomsky, to name the obvious sources. From reading Pappe and Morris, two historians with polar perspectives, it is clear that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their land in 1948. Where Pappe decries that ethnic cleansing, Morris says it was a good thing and that the Israeli's should have done a more thorough job. So, when Phil says, 'Israel has been attacked for 60 years since its first inception', I am inclined to think, is it any wonder when you consider the manner in which Israel was realised. Not that I celebrate Israel being attacked. You refuse to accept that Israel is in contravention of International Law and knee-jerkingly cite resolution 242 - which I have read actually on several occasions - again, please cease with the assumptions. How about the International Court of Justice's ruling on the illegality of the separation wall - remember that one? The whole world ratified that - well, apart from America (though Justice Burgenthal did state, “The Fourth Geneva Convention and International Human Rights Law are applicable to the occupied Palestinian territory and must therefore be fully complied with by Israel. Accordingly, the segments of the wall being built by Israel to protect the settlements are ipso facto in violation of international humanitarian law,”) - and of course Israel - they simply refused to acknowledge the proceedings. And how about the Geneva Convention - ratified by Israel - specifically, article 49: 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies'. There are just two examples. So you see, it's not my opinions that I am forwarding but the opinion of the world as laid down in International Courts of Law. I await with interest your dismissal of global opinion.

PHIL

SI N -you have replied to Adam but ignored my post -and I certainly made no barbed comments -is it because you cant find an answer ?its unfortunately obvious that you don't know your history-lets make it clear Israel was brought into being by a free vote of the United Nations ,taken from the mandate administered by GB AFTER THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE LOST IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR.-YOU WILL OF COURSE BE AWARE THAT THE GRAND MUFTI OF JERUSALEM SPENT THE SECOND WORLD WAR IN BERLIN WITH HITLER- you will of course also be aware why !Do your research, the Arab population were asked to stay put and be part of Israel-they were told the opposite by the invading Arab armies and fled-of course there would have been isolated instances of terror by rogue Israelis but it was not state policy ,I have Palestinian friends who fled so I have a pretty good idea what happened -check your history -newspapers and broadcasts -David Ben Gurion for instance -so this perspective that Israel stole the land is just ridiculous .As for your ascertations about HR and courts of justice etc 6 million Jews died in spite of that.their HR fell on deaf ears and probably more than 35 million other unfortunate souls-If the Israelis think that the wall may help them to avoid committing suicide can you really blame them ? Let the Islamists stop the attacks ,come to a table and try for a just peace and see how fast that wall comes down -one more question for you how long did the Allies stay as an occupying power in Germany?was it for fun or the safety of the world until that nation cleansed itself from the lunatics and became a great nation again -surely you cant believe Israel wants any part of Gaza -I do agree the west bank is a more complicated issue as is Jerusalem a city from which Jews were banned until the 67 war and I might say is now open to all, we can be sure the Israelis would welcome a peaceful Palestinian state and if asked help to rebuild it -SI,N campaign for that and we all will be happy -that's what I do

Si, N

Phil, I'm not sure where you are getting your 'history' from but one thing is clear, it's not history, just propaganda. Do try to keep up. To begin with, on a point of morality, do you not think that the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed might have a different perspective on the manner in which 'Israel was brought into being'? All that guff about 'the Arab population were asked to stay put and be part of Israel-they were told the opposite by the invading Arab armies and fled-of course there would have been isolated instances of terror by rogue Israelis but it was not state policy' just doesn't wash any more. The fact is that is was explicit 'state policy' - 'it's unfortunately obvious' that you are unaware of Plan D and the plotting that took place in The Red House - why don't YOU 'do your research'? Also, you seem to think that the awful suffering of the Jews under the Nazis entitles Jews to inflict miseries on a population that played no part those events. How perverse. By the way, the situation in the West Bank is not complicated. It's quite straight forward - Israel is illegally occupying the land - it continues to construct its illegal separation wall by stealing more land - if YOU 'do your research' you'll find that the ICJ had no quarrel with Israel building its wall just so long as it built it on its land. Your assertion that Jerusalem is 'open to all' is risible beyond belief.

PHIL

sI N i wasted my time it seems you are just writing Islamist propoganda ,far from the truth as you probably know and I have better things to do than to try to change your perspective-the other posters on the whole will know your words are off the wall - I will just have to tell my Palestinian and Lebanese friends that you know better than them -so have a good life old son -I will leave you to ADAM B - he knows how to deal with you -good luck Adam this is one stubborn guy .

PHIL

S i n just in case you had written something unbiased and possibly true -i visited 2 minutes ago the site for PLAN D-it proved only one thing what nonsense you have been writing and using extracts to suit your own purpose -any one interested can visit the site and see it was a plan for the defence of Israel when the promised attack came from the Arab armies -and as I forgot to refute your accusation that* Israel inflicts miseries on people who played no part in the Jewish annihilation* -I will remind you of what I told you about the grand mufti and hitler-if it is too much for you to take in -THE MAN WANTED THE JEWS WIPED OUT -In SI N speak is that nothing ? now try plan E F and G-you may find other extracts to blind us with -let alone the plots you *found* and please address your replies to Adam .,don't waste my time as you never address any of the points I put to you -only make further baseless accusations-Its obvious I don't always see eye to eye with Rob or London but at least they write some sense and we argue our points ,but I have to class you with marcus (who doesn't deserve a capital letter- ) your childish selective history would not even rate a failure at O level so I don't want any further contact with you .

phil

For those of you who may be wondering what THE RED HOUSE referred to by SI N is about -it is an other tissue of nonsense written by a revisionist Israeli professor -this man SI N digs up any words written by anybody who suits his cause -this plot is about 11 men men who are supposed to have met in secret to plot the downfall of the Arabs(in the red house) -but of course SI n and his pals had flies on the wall recording all this for posterity and are now able to enlighten us with this *knowledge*-personally I prefer James Bond,by the way did any of you know Hitler was Jewish and only did his stuff to ensure the future of the state of Israel (scource batman and robin ,who work for me)

Adam B.

Thanks for your kind words Bill - I don't think Si N is worth bothering with. I could write a point by point rebuttal, but then again I have a life.

Si, N

Those wondering what I was referring to when I mentioned the RED HOUSE – though I didn’t shout it – really shouldn’t depend on the previous poster (pp) for a fair appraisal. He would have you believe that a ‘2 mins’ visit’ to ‘the site for PLAN D’ – whatever that might be - is sufficient to deduce that it’s simply ‘Islamist propaganda’ and that I am intent on disseminating the same. When he speaks - of ‘the plots you found’ - he hopes that his ignorant mockery will conceal burgeoning academic inquiry. Fact is, sources that I draw on are – as I keep pointing out – historical/documentary analyses as written largely by Israeli Historians using declassified Israeli military documents. Because this ‘New History’ – debated freely in Israel - radically diverges from the received narrative, he seeks to suppress the debate here. Where some of us hope to deepen our understanding of this conflict – to enunciate the rights and wrongs of both sides – he is intent to make vague references to ‘promised attacks’ and shout about the Grand Mufti’s desire to ‘WIPE OUT ALL JEWS’. All of the sensible writers that I have looked at condemn the ardent anti-zionist stance of Amin al-Hussein and his murderous approach to those - Jew and Arab alike - that disagreed with him. His alignment with the Nazis is particularly deserving of contempt – which sane person wouldn’t think that? No doubt the pp imagines that Arab anti-zionism emerged out of a vacuum or is simply the product of an Arab predisposition towards aggression. I say imagined because despite his insistence that others do and present their research, he appears to have no need to check facts – he certainly presents no evidence. So he would probably be unaware of Benny Morris’s assertion that, ‘the fear of territorial dispossession and displacement was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism’. Or when speaking of the propaganda about ‘radio broadcasts’: ‘(i)t is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put’. Remember, Morris is a champion of the Jewish state and as I said he uses declassified Israeli documents – so why then would we need ‘James Bond’ or a ‘fly on the wall’ when we have the words of the protagonists? The pp’s reductive approach would lead you believe that the Consultancy was just 11 random men. The fact is their number included notables such as David Ben-Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Moshe Kalman and Yitzhak Rabin. The pp’s refusal to accept that land was, and continues to be, stolen demonstrates a complete disconnect from the ‘facts on the ground’. After all, Ben-Gurion made no secret of his desire to rid the land of Arabs, as he said: “I am for compulsory transfer; I don’t see anything immoral in it.” The methodology for transfer is no secret either. For example, Kalman noted that Israeli militias in Sa’sa: “took the main street of the village and systematically blew up one house after another while families were still sleeping inside…(i)n the end, the sky prised open. We left behind 35 demolished houses (a third of the village) and 60–80 dead bodies (quite a few of them were children).” Not that any of this is wildly divergent from earlier Zionist ideology. In an 1895 diary entry, the founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl stated: ‘we must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us…Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly’. Israel Zangwill was less disposed towards any such gentle discretion and flatly stated: (we) must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the (Arab) tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population’. Explicit Zionist policy, all of it. Seemingly, it remains explicit present day Israeli state policy – the ongoing construction of the illegal separation wall and its attendant illegal land grabbing demonstrates as much. The thing is, those Zionist voices that I’ve cited were unafraid of professing their beliefs. Unlike the pp – gliding along in his ahistoric bubble – seeking to suppress all debate whilst twittering on about the ‘exemplary’ behaviour of Israel. All the while, he swats away the manifold contrary reports of the human rights organisations. Again, on this point the pp presents a false impression. Because it’s expedient for him to label Amnesty International as Jew-haters intent on bringing the State to an end – then it follows that all human rights organisations are necessarily not to be trusted. The fact is, no other conflict is as thoroughly scrutinised. Don’t just take or dismiss my word – check it. There are abundant local (Israeli) human rights organisations, such as B'T selem, Physicians for Human Rights, Jews for Justice for Palestinians and many more - all of them very well placed to comment – the thing is, all of these organisations, international and local, agree about Israel’s lousy human rights record. As for the insistence that Israel never intentionally aims to kill civilians - International law states: ‘the inevitable or foreseeable consequences of an act count as intention’. Gideon Levy understood that when, writing about the 2006 Israeli attack on Beit Hanoun, he said: ‘someone who throws a match into a forest can’t claim he didn’t mean to set it on fire and anyone who bombards residential neighbouhoods with artillery can’t claim he didn’t mean to kill innocent inhabitants’. I wonder what Batman and Robin would have to say about that.

phil

Adam B the unmentionable one has confused us all before disappearing along with Patricia and marcus up his own tunnel-I,m Phil not Bill (lol) -he reminds me of a boxer I once went to commiserate with when he had been knocked out in the first round ---*I,ll be back man I don't give up*-and he did ,and he was again.I think he is just a young boy who flits from page to page of revisionist writers and is unable to answer any questions that are posed to him and is not worth the time we have spent trying to use logic and common sense -best wishes Phil or Bill

phil

I wish Icould ignore this si but he has now resorted to telling outright lies about me as for benny morris check him in the wikipedia he was praised by the Arab s for what he saidMorris (born 1948) is an Israeli historian identified with the New Historians school, a group of historians who dispute the traditional Israeli view of the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Known for his work on the history of Palestinian refugees and his refusal to perform reserve duty in the West Bank, Morris was seen as an Israeli sympathizer of the Palestinian cause, and his work was cited and praised by pro-Arab writers[1]. Since the outbreak of the Second Intifada Morris has increased his criticism of the Arab leadership, and has criticized "pro-Arab propagandists" for highlighting certain parts of his work while ignoring others. He has stated that the collapse of the Camp David peace talks was a product of Palestinian-Arab decisions.most of his posts are twisting the truthperhaps he will tell his what he really wants out of all this and where his politics actually lie

Si, N

Aagghh - don't listen to the pp, he's a yahoo - forget wikipedia - READ BOOKS - start with Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe - then pitch-up somewhere in between the two for a balanced view - if the likes of the pp had their way they'd burn the books that reported unpalatable truths - just like they attempt to make me 'the unmentionable'...untermensch anybody?

Adam B.

Phil, for your sake, leave it. Si N's last posting isn't even comprehensible. He just doesn't want to know. Some people are simply beyond reasoned argument.

phil

Adam B thanks ,you are right of course ,he is not worth the effort but his statement about Amnesty and that I called them Jew haters is too much of a lie to take- in all my posts I have never gone down this anti-semitic line because I dont believe it -so I was just disgusted with him but I will not reply to his nonsense again -he has an IQ and a great ability to read ,but sadly no common sense .so I am chipping him over to anyone who wants him regards Phil

Si, N

Holy Head Stuck in the Sand, we've heard the judgement of Batman and Robin - now the Riddler and Joker have spoken - SAMPLE OF RIDDLER'S LOGIC: 'Amnesty you are right I ABSOLUTELY DISTRUST THEM you will remember what they said about Jenin -lies which caused incredible hate towards the Israelis' - weighed against - 'his statement about Amnesty and that I called them Jew haters is too much of a lie to take' - diddums, he spits out his dummy yet again in protest over the difference between saying an organisation are 'Jew-haters' and that they enable 'hate towards Jews' - INCREDIBLE. Still, in his own cipher-like way he is just employing the tried and tested behaviour of supporters of the murderous occupation - waste people's time focussing on irrelevant details - anything, just steer the debate away from the facts of the murderous occupation. Time for me to take my leave from this sorry debate - I would have fared better reasoning with chimps - maybe they would have sought to sway me with some facts rather than simply engaging in futile refutations of documentary evidence and historical analysis. Toodle pip.