A warship alters its signal?

David Lodge

Extremely perceptive of you, as usual, Miss Phillips, but given the equivocation - not to mention back-peddling in the case of the EPP group - by the Tories on the issue, e.g. Hague's evident repudiation of Euroscepticism recently, do you honestly think they will climb down off the fence this side of a General Election? I think not.

field

We should get out. Norway and Switzerland - two of the richest nations on earth - are out and members of the EEA which gives them access to the European markets.

There would be some dislocation, of course. But there would be many opportunities as well.

We should rely on our own great abilities, develop our huge renewable energy resources, create the good society - not involve ourselves in this huge leviathan of a superstate.

Huw Thornton

Whatever would be the best relationship between Britain and the rest of Europe, I'd be cautious in going for any package prescribed for us by Giscard d'Estaing.

Ian G

We have the Commonwealth; a market that the EU would like access to. There is the EEA and IONA; not to mention the USA. It's about time we institutionalised the Anglosphere. The EU should be coming to us, cap in hand. Rebuild our industrial and agricultural economy as well as our intellectual and service economies, tade with the world and let the devil take the EU. Which he most certainly will...

Kevyn Bodman

We should get out.
Withdrawal might make us materially better off or it might not, that's not the point that clinches it for me.
Withdrawal would increase the chances of us being in control of matters of social/economic/foreign policy that affect us.
In the EU we are not in control; it's not even the politicians who are in full control, it's officials. They are largely unknown and irremovable.And their interests do not coincide with our interests.

Other EU members might go into a bit of a sulk with the UK if we come out, but they are still going to trade with us, their consumers are still going to want to buy some of the goods and services we offer.
We can put up with Barroso in a huff; that's minor.

Water

Field and Huw Thornton seemed to have covered two points rather well, but still some additional comments Melanie. You say “The UK's perverse attachment to self-government has always been perceived to be as incomprehensible as it is non-communautaire”. There is nothing at all perverse about the UK’s attachment to self-governance and there is most definitely nothing perverse about the Britain wanting to maintain a sense of sovereignty (which, it is good to see, Giscard acknowledges). Also the words UK infer a Kingdom which is an articulated whole and which posses a very distinct communautaire air (with reference to the realms of the United Kingdom [not the EU acquis]) about it. But is the United Kingdom really united? At the moment I wouldn’t say so hence why Gordon has been getting away with all too much, divided we are exploited within England at least. Though none the less as field says ‘We should get out’, also some may even say that the reasons why the actions of the UK have been ‘incomprehensible’ to the vast majority of those compiling the EU acquis merely because they feign ignorance to our (and I speak as an actual Brit/Englishmen) sense of solidarity (though ‘Giscard evidently understood’ this in 2007 with ref to the conclusive passages of your piece so this must be taken into account). Then again many things seem incomprehensible since we claim to be united… but then again a perquisite on unification to its full out extent within the UK would entail that we have a leader we all want, but England’s leader is insufficient for the interests of England anyway. This said, after all it does not benefit acquis communautaire interests as a whole for the UK to maintain a course of self-governance to it’s full out extent that’s why they don’t comprehend! Then again any sense of their not being able to comprehend our reluctance may (though this seems optimistic I admit) have taken a sharp change with Gordon’s actions in the not so distant past… were you to have sought reference to more recent comments from Giscard then 'maybe’ this would have been taken into account because as Giscards suggested any thoughts of a “statut particulier” has not been taken on board sufficiently. Though this boils down to the ‘inappropriate’ Scotsman in question running England. But still ‘Huw Thorntons’ thoughts seem to be hitting home.
Melanie you also said “Suppose the implacable reluctance of the Brits to be good Europeans like everyone else has now convinced the eurocrats that the Brits will never be anything other than a millstone round the euroneck?” let the millstone grind! who in the hell are they to try to wear us around their ‘euroneck’ in the first place, Britain and as an Englishmen, England at least, is more then some menial accessory to adorn themselves with.

As for British politicians being “too afraid to ask?” well is it a question of fear or lack of faith in the system in that their words are not registering when they ask for changes on the whole.

Water

As David Lodge 'equivocation' indeed!

Ray

A future Conservative government should promptly legislate to reassert the supremacy of laws made in Westminster and then challenge the EU to do its worst. After all, given how shy other members states are of committing forces to Afghanistan, can anyone really imagine the Italians and the Belgians wanting to put tanks on the streets of Manchester or Birmingham in order to compel our obeisance to the European Superstate?

Bob Gray

Water: "The UK's perverse attachment to self-government..." It's just Melanie's jeu d'esprit. Do try.

Water

Bob Gray:"It's just Melanie's jeu d'esprit" it maybe the case but I don't know her that well as to cast aspersions as to her particular disposition so i'll stick with what i've said, do try...to understand.

Water

As for trying, it's safe to sa the try was successful.

Ian C

Hague and Cameron have to play a long game here. Giscard has certainly loaded the gun with the ammunition needed. The question for them is how to best use the one shot they will have at sorting the European issue once and for all. Brown is presently handing over the broader political initiative to the Tories. Europe is one of the cards that Cameron will have to play but it is beginning to look like he can get elected without playing it -certainly not yet. Some form of referendum will have to come under a Tory Gov't. The question on the ballot will be the key and some form of in or out wording is more likely if Giscard can be persuaded to keep talking and over here.

peter watkins

Hang on -

Did Phillips write a blog without mentioning Israel? What did I miss?

Ah - of course - on a day when even the Bush Presidency criticises Israel for illegal and provocoative house building for loooy settlers, she's trying to divert our attention.

Good try Phillips.

stanley Jerusalem

The UK Government of whatever political shade will always be able to rely 100% on the electorate to vote against any referendum concerning inclusion in Europe.
That's why they don't provide referenda[ums?].
It's the trump card for getting'out of Europe' when it is deemed politically advisable.
Meanwhile they play the waiting game with a tweak here and an appeal there.
They ain't completely stupid, our politicians. Just blinkered where and when it suits them.
Don't be so naieve!

Water

Pssst peter (wink wink nudge nudge) she may have thought yesterday was the first of the month!

Water

Stanley Jerusalem a good point. But it still seems better to deal with matters sooner rather then later and not to wait for a rainy day hoping that the powers that be at that point make the right decision. Forgive me and those of us who come across as naive but it’s just NOT the case. It just seems to me like wishful thinking to feel that a referendum would come at a later stage even if things were to become diabolical.
Also, if it were to be the case it would pretty much require the government to say “Ignore what we have been saying with regards to the EU con... for the last 'X' number of years [albeit that this is an estimation as regards future events but it is a response in virtue to your parlance] and now we’ll give you the freedom to vote that you should have had anyway!… and oh yeah sorry for the mistake in getting the country to the stage where were now trying to save face by giving you the right to vote” that we should have already we shouldn’t have to wait for a bad times for the government to finally listen to what the people want! After all they are meant to represent us.

stanley Jerusalem

Water, their technique for representing us is masterly inactivity.
When [and if] they need the get-out clause of a referendum they will glorify it with the classic description of " The will of the people of Great Britain" until which time we snooze.

Water

Stanley Jerusalem, of course, professed ignorance by those who want the goyim to sleep in order to maintain the actual ‘perverse’ status quo amongst the ignorant. But if the vast majority of the people who have been commenting on forums at various web based locations over the past number of months are anything to go by people are not asleep and they are very much aware of to the actuality of what ramifications the EU holds, but alas they are scared and don’t know what to do. Were I not studying I would be rallying a march at this point and trying to instigate strikes for there are many, many, many people out there who feel the same and should start exercising their democratic voice to better effect.
Also how many get damaged economically, morally and ideologically till such a fabled day as that of referendum in the manner that your detailing were (possibly) to occur. Also, in that time the reciprocal effects that assimilation inevitably brings with it will also sink in its claws to the extent where all damage would not be reversible, hence why things of this intensity have to be nipped in the bud by the people in order to remind some people that they are meant to be in their particular positions of power as representatives for the people. Now I will not make many guesses as to what the future may hold as I cannot see into it, but let me say this much. Recently one thing that there has been a lot of talk about is national identity (or questions with regard to the lack of it) of late. With this in mind assimilation will come to have a deleterious effect upon the already terminal nature of national identity for people if they are to begin to further lack faith in the body politic.
Also [it maybe the case that, as you say] they (the government) will get out of it, I admit it is more than likely for nothing short of mass upheaval will stop it but if there is to be such a thing it needs to happen in the near future. With all of this in mind should we deal with half truths and maybes amongst the sleeping babies, ultimately such an approach with things of such gravity is not sufficient when dealing with a country full of people. Though stanley Jerusalem you do talk much sense I don't deny that.

Water

Hey Stanley its been great though I've got loads of work to do chap. If you respond then I'll try catching up later.

Water

Hey what about the other comment I put in before the last comment why haven't you put that up as that was the response to stanley that I gave !

Water

Hey what about the other comment I put in before the last comment why haven't you put that up as that was the response to stanley that I gave ! aka this one

Stanley Jerusalem, of course, professed ignorance by those who want the goyim to sleep in order to maintain the actual ‘perverse’ status quo amongst the ignorant. But if the vast majority of the people who have been commenting on forums at various web based locations over the past number of months are anything to go by people are not asleep and they are very much aware of to the actuality of what ramifications the EU holds, but alas they are scared and don’t know what to do. Were I not studying I would be rallying a march at this point and trying to instigate strikes for there are many, many, many people out there who feel the same and should start exercising their democratic voice to better effect.
Also how many get damaged economically, morally and ideologically till such a fabled day as that of referendum in the manner that your detailing were (possibly) to occur. Also, in that time the reciprocal effects that assimilation inevitably brings with it will also sink in its claws to the extent where all damage would not be reversible, hence why things of this intensity have to be nipped in the bud by the people in order to remind some people that they are meant to be in their particular positions of power as representatives for the people. Now I will not make many guesses as to what the future may hold as I cannot see into it, but let me say this much. Recently one thing that there has been a lot of talk about is national identity (or questions with regard to the lack of it) of late. With this in mind assimilation will come to have a deleterious effect upon the already terminal nature of national identity for people if they are to begin to further lack faith in the body politic.
Also [it maybe the case that, as you say] they (the government) will get out of it, I admit it is more than likely for nothing short of mass upheaval will stop it but if there is to be such a thing it needs to happen in the near future. With all of this in mind should we deal with half truths and maybes amongst the sleeping babies, ultimately such an approach with things of such gravity is not sufficient when dealing with a country full of people.

Pete Hoskin

Water: which comment do you mean? As far as I can tell, all your comments today have been approved.

Water

That's very strange the later comment came up before the prior comment on which I then commented as not having had appeared! Then again it is the 1st!

Pete Hoskin

Water: our posts of 2:07 and 2:09 must have overlapped.

The comment you mention is showing on my computer - timed at 1:21. Just look a few comments up...

Pete Hoskin

Water: another overlap!

Glad it's sorted now.

Water

Pete Hoskin your wonderful hahaha! Such games! Yes of course their all up now! It was the order in which they came through then reconfigured that I was questioning, but not to worry it's the 1st weird and wonderful things are bound to happen.

Vanessa Crichton

I think this is a dangerous way to go. The EU is set up and is becoming a communist state. It is unelected, unaccountable, corrupt and makes all our laws in secret. The parliament is a sham as it does not matter what the MEPs say the laws are passed anyway. If we do not leave we will get the Euro (no question) the £20 note already looks like 20 euros and it will be introduced by the back door. Look at a YouTube clip Britain on the Brink a talk by a Russian dissident - very interesting.

Frank Pulley

God! We're up to our waists in Water again. Must be something to do with 'Climate Change."

EyeSee

I think you'll find what Giscard is suggesting is that France should run the EU and all other nations can operate as 'departments', sort of local councils. Which is back to the view they had right at the very start.

Water

Frank Pulley: told you I’d be back, is the divine conduit.
EyeSee: Of course but I think you’ll find any ex-leader of any country within the EU would want their country to run it surely seems axiomatic. But what Giscard is flagging up here is that he knows the UK has a "unique position" on these things to quote Melanie. This would infer that he knows we wouldn't assimilate in the same manner as other constitutive countries as the UK wants "to remain in charge of its own affairs"

Commondog

Water
"I don't know her that well as to cast aspersions as to her particular disposition"
Are you a Sherlock Holmes fan?

Water

Pete its not April fools day any more chap;)

Water

Commondog: Conan was great so I am a fan, but I wasn' thinking of him when I wrote that.

Frank Pulley

Water, Water everywhere
And all the bored did shrink.
Water, Water everywhere
And ne'er a stop to think.

Water

Frank Pulley oh there is thinking going on no doubt at all about it. Just not in the right parties.