The war against the Jews (17)

epaminondas

HAMAS can solve this quite simply.
"HAMAS recognizes Israel's right to exist, on the land it is on, in security and peace in perpetuity"

Of course, then they are no longer HAMAS.....

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

M.Lester

Crumbs! Even the BBC got it right :" Hamas rejects Israeli recognition ".
Ms Frankel must have been swayed by Carter's charm or just be (pea)nuts

Jane

A "tacit acceptance of Israel’s right to exist alongside a Palestinian state, but without explicit recognition"?

It was tacit, Sheera Frenkel, because it was a voice in your head. Wake up.

Dee Ranged

Another useful idiot on The Times.

Ann

Interesting: so the future 'Palestinian' state 'must' have Jerusalem as its 'genuine, sovereign capital'. How does that sit with all those calling for Israel to go back to the 1947 partition plan (a demand I have characterised as ignorant, to put it mildly, several times before)? According to them, Jerusalem must be an international city, no? How do they imagine the Arabs, and in particular Hamas, feel about that? Would they accept Ramallah or Hebron as their capital?
The stupidity of the call to return to 1947 consists, among others, in a failure to recognise that the Arabs don't want a slice of the cake: they want the whole cake, from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean, including Tel-Aviv and Haifa. They say so. Just read the Hamas charter. But the useful fools in the west simply don't get it.

blah

blah blah

Beedeekay

Yes, but they make up for it with a brilliant Brookes' cartoon today.

Mike

And this from Melanie Phillips who herself 'spreads mischief' in Academia and shoots herself in the foot while doing it!

And not only that, describes Jimmy Carter as an 'Israel-hater' simply because he dares, actually dares.......to criticise Israel. How dare he?

This is a shallow 'catchall' phrase, not unlike that used by John MacCain on the campaign trail who portrays the insurgency (or multiple insurgencies) in Iraq as that of Al Qaeda. And further doesn't know the differences between a Sunni and a Shia!

So let's be absolutely clear about this.......anyone who dares to criticise Israel, is an 'Israel-hater' If this is indeed the case then I'm going to come out of retirement and go into the 'badge business' with a badge carrying this description of the wearer. I'll be laughing all the way to the bank - the only problem would be sorting out the exchange rates for all the currencies that would flow in from around the world .

Right now I think I would bill in Euros.

A'la Mode

As I undertsand it Gaza has no right to exist being formerly egyptian, occupied by Israel after the 6 day victory and now "unoccupied". I would suggest the Israelis quarantine Hamastan, cut of all supplies including electricity and let the Egyptians sort it out from their side of the border. It wuill of course require the dismantling of Mubarrak's recently breached security barrier.

ray douglas

is the writer of the times article ignorant or just naive?i suspect a bit of both as are most of the negative responses to another excellent article by melanie.

Ann

I haven't seen this cartoon, but I well remember the antisemitic one a few years ago, depicting Israel as murdering a helpless old man in a wheelchair for the hell of it (if anyone needs a reminder: that poor old man was a genocidal agitator who had caused the deaths of many Israelis).

PHIL

Mike apart from the very unlike mikelike outburst of venom do you really think that we are all so foolish as to think that hamas will not use the hudna to rearm ,re-equip.dig deep etc when it will not recognise Israel,s right to exist -The answer as I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID TO YOU IS MAKE PEACE-NADA MAS AMIGO NADA MENUS

Ann

Mike rants about Melanie 'shooting herself in the foot' - what utter nonsense. As careful analysis of that thread shows, the vice chancellor's and professor's responses are lame in the extreme, and support the view that they come from a Stalinist position.
Carter is an Israel-hater, when judged by his cumulative record. Perhaps you have great difficulty following this concept, but his consistent bias is clear. He is not 'criticising' Israel: he is venomous in his distortions. A bit like some posters here.

Brian Williamson

Having nursed an old Sony portable through thick and thin, after almost 25 years it gave up it's useful life and became an electronic, flickering ghost. I'd actually loved that bit of 80's design with it's totally unfussy and minimal exterior. Even the battleship grey was perfectly right. Not the overt statement of black, the flash of plasticky silver or the ubiquitous cream around at the time, it was an immaculately realised sleek piece of equipment, perfect for purpose with not one added cornice, pediment, badge or fake doodah to mar it's less is more aspect.

Buying a new one took quite a bit of soul searching, stick with tried and tested, luddite small or go with a larger flat screen? The exquisite torment of ancient versus modern resulted in a few false starts but in the end I got there and a brand new compromise of 26" screen coupled with a DVD recorder brought me kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

What has this to do with Jimmy Carter you may ask? Quite a lot actually as last nights viewing almost resulted in the premature infanticide of my new love child.

What a performance, swallowed hook line and sinker by a gloating and salivating BBC? It was mannah from heaven for their purpose. A 'look we were right all along and here's a personage, a Nobel Prize winner, no less who is not only backing us but actually talking with Hamas'. The wry chuckles, the knowing and easy camaraderie reduced what should have been a questing and probing interview into a mutual love-fest between Georgia peanut farmer and the vaunted Paxman, feared by friend and foe alike.

More attention was paid to Israel's refusal to meet with Jimmy the Dhimmi than the obvious of detail and implementation of a deal between a legitimate nation and a bunch of homicidal maniacs.

Dhimmi came up with the jaw dropping equivalence tack when he balanced the morality of suicide killing and constant rocket attack with Israel's attempts at self defence and that was the almost breaking point moment of lethal peril for my TV.

An ex US President falling for the lies and taqiya of gunmen? Yep, remember it was Carter who armed the mujahadeen in Afghanistan. Has he heard of the tactic of hudna, practiced and perfected by Islam's founder as a devious device which basically consists of lying to gain time and space?

Has he read of the obliteration of the Jewish race in the Arabian Peninsula after Jews had rejected Mohammed's hotch potch blending and plundering of both Jewish and Christian texts, then presented as revelation direct from God?

Has he thought of the absolute unbending racism of Palestinians, pummeled into young minds even in the form of Jew killing cartoon rabbits? How on earth would Hamas explain it's sudden u-turn without losing that all important face which is the bedrock of Islam?

They won't is the answer because this will be presented as step one as a reversal of the Naqba and their very own reconquista of a land which according to the tenets of the faith of once Islamic is Islamic forever?

The arguments could go on forever and from Oslo via Camp David to the Roadmap we've seen every promise broken.

Jimmy Cartoon would be more appropriate for this one dimensional figure who thinks in his ignorance and arrogance that the values of his Christian faith are universal amongst all mankind.

They aren't is the short answer. Another is who will rid us of these meddling igroramouses devoid of any questing intellect and who fall each and every time for the deception and unblushing dishonesty of a group whose ultimate aim is to wipe out world Jewry and establish a Global Caliphate. The Muslim Brotherhood, backers of Hamas have actually stated as much in a display of rare honesty. No dissembling there I'm afraid and Hitler's ambition of world domination pales into insignificance compared with the millenarian aims of Islam whose concept of time is based on an everlasting temporal model with no end until the objective is achieved.

Clinton and Blair rabbited on about triangulation, thus creating the Third Way idea of political manouvering. We have to do the same during this emergance of a new form of warfare in which any tactic is fair game including deliberate killing of civilians and use of immigration and high birthrate to swamp and dominate host nations.

Nothing is deemed as too barbaric and we saw what happens when a school in Beslan was used as a bargaining tool. I'd love to hear Carter's pronunciations on that one!

In a way he is being the racist in assuming that Arabs are just like westerners only a different colour. He is planting and overlaying our ideas of morality onto them but it's all a cynical paper thin veneer just to gain advantage and time.

Can't Carter realise that Israel has abandoned Gaza to Hamas? They rule the roost but it ain't working as the place is plunged into anarchy and poverty. They get angry and continue the rocket assaults and terror killing. Israel seals itself quite naturaly from this couldron of death and corruption and Hamas then wails of 'containment' and 'apartheidt'.

Why, if so all conquering does Hamas need Israel? Because they are quite useless at self sufficiency is too easy an answer for the Carter's of this world. Because other Arab nations including Egypt and Jordan want nothing to do with these trouble makers and more or less openly acknowledge that fact. Neither Carter or the UN will dare castigate those two Arab nations so go for the easy target which uses civilised and democratic methods of governance.

The very fact that we do not deport criminals back to the Middle East because they use torture is lost when viewed from that perspective. Yet they are the good guys when it comes to this situation? So one argument is used as a human rights ploy yet when Israel is factored in these nations are the innocents?

Both sides now as diametrically opposing argument is quite cheerfully utilised.

It's a mad, mad world alright. Welcome to the asylum.

Dr. Irene Lancaster

Criticizing Israel is not the same as being an Israel hater, just as criticizing Britain does not make you a hater of Britain.

Israelis are constantly criticizing their own country and trying to improve it in all sorts of ways, including their understanding of, and integration of ethnic minority groups.

That is one of the wonderful things about Israel which I have commented on on my own blog.

Melanie is to be congratulated for constantly showing up flaws in the arguments of those who would prefer to turn a blind eye to the theological roots of Hamas' exhortations to obliterate the State of Israel and its entire population (including the 20% of the population which is not Jewish).

This article in the left-wing paper Haaretz says it all:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977008.html

Mike

Ann: In defence of Jimmy Carter, I would merely like to remind you that it was he who brokered the peace between Egypt and Israel which has held to this day. It is this capability that has been so sadly lacking in the White House
in recent times, and which has to return if there is going to be any chance of a permanent peace in the Middle East for all concerned.

As you may have read elsewhere, I've finished with Melanie's blogs.

BiBi Have fun!

David Lindsay

Carter is simply doing what the Israelis themselves have done.

Within Israel's pre-1967 borders (have you got that?), the most popular name for new baby boys is now Muhammad.

There is now a Russian-language television station for the ever-growing number of devourers of pork products, many of whom insist on taking their Israeli soldiers’ oaths on the New Testament alone, and some of whom have been found to be distributing anti-Semitic literature in Russian, up to and including the members of an Israeli neo-Nazi gang.

These Russians are the beneficiaries of the Law of Return, not least because Israeli Jews, other than ultra-Orthodox who are either fully anti-Zionist or at least deeply unhappy about the State of Israel that exists, exhibit that unmistakable societal death wish which is a birth rate well below replacement level (and still falling).

Israel should seize this opportunity, not only to present her non-Jewish Arabs (more than half of Israeli Jews being Arabs) as the best-off in the Middle East, but to make them enjoy, and make the world know that they enjoy, the same standard of living as the rest of her citizenry.

But put together the little Muhammads, the sausage-munching Russian Christians, the non-Jewish Arab birth rate, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish birth rate, the contrastingly low and declining birth rate among other Israeli Jews, and the fact that Israel’s international credibility now requires that she deliver on her much-vaunted claim that her Gentile citizens are equal.

All in all, in 50 or even 30 years time, we will all marvel that there was ever an attempt to re-create some romanticised version of Wilhelmine or Weimar Germany in the Levant, and the magazines that come with the Saturday or Sunday newspapers will occasionally feature articles about the tiny outposts of those aged souls still trying to live the dream.

But the dream is over. Give it up.

After all, which would you rather have?

Full re-integration into the linguistically and culturally Arab Levant of Christians, Muslims, Jews and Druze, with its de facto capital at Damascus?

Or a statelet dominated demographically and politically by Russian Nazis, the statelet busily being created by the continuing application of the Law of Return, the essence of Zionism?

Those are the only two options available in actual fact. In which would Jews be safer?

nosmo

David Lindsay,
I'm afraid the REAL facts are against you regarding on the other hand, the demography of Israel.
The Israeli Muslim birth rate, though still higher than the Jewish, has declined by 23% since 1996 and looks like dropping further. (Also birth rates in all the surrounding countries, hostile to Israel, are falling!) On the other hand, the Israeli Jewish birth rate has increased over that period by 6% and is now 20 per 1000 which must be the highest in the industrialised world! (For comparison it is 12.5 per 1000 in the UK) More Jewish children are born in Israel than in the rest of the world, and currently there are more Jews in Israel under age 22 than in the rest of the world. Within a generation or less there will be more Jews in Israel than in the diaspora. The Arab 'time bomb' against Israel will eventually fizzle out - the signs are evident.

Moshe Pipick

David Linday

Give it up

YOUR dream is over .

There are those that would like to see Israel disappear by military means ,those who would see it succumb by way of demographic suicide ie the so called Palestinian right of return .To that we can now add David Lindsays Death by kindness.That is and I paraphrase
"Accept full reintegration into the linguistically and culturally Arab Levant of Christians Muslims Druze and Jews with its de facto capital as Damascus.

Err no thanks Dave I ve got that already only with Jerusalem as my capital even if it means putting up with Tel Aviv drivers trying to achieve what Hamas cannot.

Just to sum up Israel is a dynamic democracy which does not pretend to be perfect but is far removed from the third world sea of totalitarian failed states surrounding it.

That and the women are stunning too!

Ann

"more than half of Israeli Jews being Arabs" - does this poster have ANY clue about Israel and/or Jews? I don't think so. Exactly NONE of Israeli Jews are 'Arabs'.
And this kind of ignoramus comes here to lecture others about Israel!

Ann

A 'statelet', eh? ROFL. Israel is a world-leader in electronics. Eat you heart out, Lindsay.

David Lindsay

Ann, it is you who either know absolutely nothing or are deliberately playing the old "Arab equals Muslim" game, in which case you won't get away with it.

Over half the Jews in Israel are Arabs in the correct sense, i.e., linguistically and culturally. They are Arabs in the same sense as anyone else in the Levant - there is, you know, some evidence of people in Egypt or Lebananon before they started speaking Arabic. But they speak it now.

The more-or-less secular Ashkenazi backbone of Zionism will do anything for Israel except live there. So all manner of other people now live there instead. Good luck to them, because nobody is bothering to stop them by ensuring that someone else is there already.

But as a Zionist State, Israel is therefore doomed. Entirely by choice. The people who love it so much don't live there and don't want to. So other people might as well. And they do. I give it thirty years. Absolute tops.

Commondog

Mike.

"I've finished with Melanie's blogs"
Have I heard that somewhere before?
You know this is too good to miss.

What was the phrase?.. "Old glue eyes is back"

Old Moshe Pipick

We're doomed all doomed i tell ye Captain Mannering

{Apologies to Dads Army }

No point in getting to seious with the DLs on this site .There will always be DLs somewhere or the other .

Anyway I will still be on the beach in Tel Aviv in 30 years Inshallah chasing after Israeli ladies on my turbo charged Zimmer.[courtesy of Advanced Israeli technology.]

David Lindsay

And good luck to you, Old Moshe Pipick, because you in turn will be being chased. Whether by the ultra-Orthodox, by the Muslims or by the Nazis remains to be seen. But one of those will be running Tel Aviv by then.

Adam B.

Mike, the peace between Israel and Egypt was achieved because of the personalities of Begin and Sadat. Carter's role was peripheral. Regardless, Carter is now giving legitimacy to the new Nazis, the genocidal Islamofascists of Hamas by talking to them (and surprise, surprise, Hamas has just stated that they will never recognize Israel, still want to kill all Jews etc., thus completely contradicting all of Carter's schoolboy self-declared achievements in meeting with them). It was because of the idiot Carter that Iran slipped into the hateful tyranny it is, and the nuclear mess that we face today. His presidency was a disaster, the Soviets gaining control of a new country every year of his presidency. Why does anybody listen to this fool?

nosmo

David Lindsay,
If you persist in ignoring what the statistics say - there isn't much more anyone can add - except to say that you are indulging in wishful thinking. Carry on - if it gives you comfort. If you are calling all the Sephardi and oriental Jews in Israel 'Arab' Jews you should know that it is precisely them (probably with good cause) who hate and distrust the real Arabs more than do the Ashkenazi Jews.

Moshe Hill

David Linday

Your last post reads like a Benny Hill ending

Old Moshe chasing the pretty girl while being chased by Charedim ,Nazis and Muslims.

Did you write the original ?I think we should be told

Ann

David, who has never lived in Israel and knows nothing about it, tries to teach his grandma to suck eggs (yes, I know Israel intimately):
"Over half the Jews in Israel are Arabs in the correct sense, i.e., linguistically and culturally" -
breathtakingly ignorant nonsense. Sephardi Jews are not Arabs: they are Jews. There is an Arab ethnos (look it up), nation, call it what you like, and there is a Jewish one. Sephardi Jews from Bulgaria, Morocco, Iraq, Yemen etc are not Arabs (and by the way, I strongly advise you not to make this stupid assertion to the face of a Sephardi Jew unless you are built like Schwarzenegger or don't mind losing a handful of teeth). Jews from various parts of the world are remarkably closely related, given the extent of the dispersal. This has been demonstrated genetically.
You may even have claimed somewhere that Ashkenazi Jews are really Khazars - that would be about as idiotic as this claim that Sephardi Jews=Arabs.

"The more-or-less secular Ashkenazi backbone of Zionism will do anything for Israel except live there" - LOL. Visited Rehavia lately? How about Ramat Aviv?

Really, David, you are just embarrassing yourself by posting this nonsense.

Lynne T

Ann:

Not that the David Lindsays of the world would want to worry their brains over scientific evidence, but genetically, even Ashkenazic Jews share more similarities with other Levantine peoples (ie: Syrians and Palestinians) than they do with Europeans. If I could direct you to the appropriate website, I would.

As for the naivity of Ms. Frenkel, Melanie is being way too polite. Only months ago, Hamas was hurtling members and employees of Fatah out of office tower windows to their certain deaths. Imagine this same bunch running a referendum.

A. Sarko

Melanie, I hope your feeling better.
A new heading could be:
"Jews Against The War(against Jews)" There are many here in The States. They are voting for GObomba, and some for Hillary.

Moshe Pipick: Good luck on the beach.
http://word-drum.spaces.live.com/

Ravi

David Lindsay is so wrong it amuses me that he should be bold as to advertise his ignorance at great length. Let me bust your argument wide open with this gem. I take it you are familiar with the concept of an Embassy. I take it that you know that an Embassy is considered to be the soil of its mother country. In this respect a ceremony may take place in an Embassy as if it had taken place in that country. So, if six million US Jews would like to apply for Israeli citizenship (that would be dual citizenship) then I am sure that Israel can change the rules such that it can be granted by Embassy without having to visit Israel. If you insist on visisting Israel then I assume they will accept teh free flight and residency qualifying holiday paid for by the Israeli govt. I'm sure that a number of Zionist benefactors would pay for it. I don't EVER see Arabs outnumbering Jews in Israel. Checkmate! You need to think again!

JJS

Ravi, you tell David L to "think again" ... he cannot think AGAIN because he has never thought BEFORE!

field

Yasser Arafat? Would that be the famous Palestinian born and bred in Cairo, Egypt and nephew of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who collaborated with Hitler in the extermination of the Jews - who called this man a hero of the Palestinians?

Er - yes it would.

Ann

Ravi - to the best of my knowledge (but please correct me if I am wrong), your scenario with the embassy is the case already.

Lynne - sure, you are quite correct; and that is what makes the Khazar conspiracy theory so stupid (and in any case, I think that the migration of Ashkenazi Jews from west to east in Europe - rather than from east to west, as the Khazar nonsense would require - is well documented historically. Of course, the genetic evidence nails it completely). So we know that Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews are closely related. My point was that they are a distinct group which is NOT Arab.

Joe Strummer

Haven't you learned anything from the Northern Ireland " Peace process". ?

If you don't give the terrorists what they want, then you clearly don't want peace and are a "warmonger". ( sic )

That was the mantra of emotional blackmail by the very vocal left wing media to howl down the democrats who opposed what was actually the submission by the UK to the evil still in our midst in Northern Ireland operating what is nothing more than a gangster state but without the balaclavas.

To Israel I say, don't make our mistake. Do not negotiate with terrorists.

I. Levanon

Who needs the Times, Carter or others when Israel has its own Haaretz with statements such as: "Haaretz tells us that ‘hudna’ implies a recognition of Israel’s existence." Since Hudna is temporary truce, they should have written 'temporary recognition'.

Ann

For more mindless nonsense about the evil US Jewish lobby, have a look at Pollard's blog (am I allowed to mention it here? Not sure how it works).

YA

..congratulations "David Lindsay" you succeeded to make this blog identical to CIF, another arena where people are engaged in pro-Israeli preaching competition. What is needed even more, is strong pro-gravity, pro-evolution, and pro-anti-global-warming stance. And don't forget pro John Prescott's bulimia.